Virtuoso Does NOT need UNBLOCKABLE Shatters

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

55 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

I had a quick chat with BenP about Mirage on twitch a few months back and he said that landing cc’s and going for setups to be completely negated by dodging was and is frustrating.  Ambush or offensive nature of Mirage wasn’t even an area of concern.

That would only make sense if there was a "hard" between landing and cc's. Otherwise DD can do the same.

But in that case why the kitten didn't they nerfed that, since all the kittening mesmers said at the release of PoF it should have been nerfed, and nerfed everything else around it instead...

This balance team is clueless af.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Allarius.5670]

1 hour ago, phokus.8934 said:

I had a quick chat with BenP about Mirage on twitch a few months back and he said that landing cc’s and going for setups to be completely negated by dodging was and is frustrating.  Ambush or offensive nature of Mirage wasn’t even an area of concern.

 

Thanks for that. Everything and anything I've ever seen a dev say with regards to Mirage also indicates that this is their line of thinking. 

 

I think this is a valid stance and that it is not difficult to see where they are coming from. I cannot say whether they are right or wrong as I'm not sure there is a right or wrong when it comes to balance, just different ways to approach and move the game. Besides, they are the Devs, it's more in their power to change the game than ours. Honestly, right or wrong is a bit esoteric and besides the point. 

 

Others in this thread make reasonable contrary arguments. However, I do think it behoves those who would like Mirage to have two dodges back to accept this dev stance as a valid one and work from there. It couldn't hurt to include other sentiments I see from the devs as well (instant cast as unhealthy, etc.). It seems like GW2 may finally be headed in a more cohesive direction, is it worth holding on to antiquated design and dying on that hill, so to speak?

 

I'm not sure if or how it could make a difference at this point, but a little alignment between players and devs might help build some rapport and better dialogue. It's hard to have a genuine discussion if both sides just ignore the other.

[Leonidrex.5649]

2 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

I had a quick chat with BenP about Mirage on twitch a few months back and he said that landing cc’s and going for setups to be completely negated by dodging was and is frustrating.  Ambush or offensive nature of Mirage wasn’t even an area of concern.

which can be done by core mesmer.
there is a difference between annoying and good.
As I said, mesmer takes 1 way to remove CC but during cc can dodge/rupt/disort.
Ranger takes 3 ways to remove CC and thus is permanently immune to it. Despite that it FEELS worse to CC mesmer and have attack dodged then for ranger to insta remove every CC you throw at them.

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Allarius.5670 said:

 

Thanks for that. Everything and anything I've ever seen a dev say with regards to Mirage also indicates that this is their line of thinking. 

 

I think this is a valid stance and that it is not difficult to see where they are coming from. I cannot say whether they are right or wrong as I'm not sure there is a right or wrong when it comes to balance, just different ways to approach and move the game. Besides, they are the Devs, it's more in their power to change the game than ours. Honestly, right or wrong is a bit esoteric and besides the point. 

 

Others in this thread make reasonable contrary arguments. However, I do think it behoves those who would like Mirage to have two dodges back to accept this dev stance as a valid one and work from there. It couldn't hurt to include other sentiments I see from the devs as well (instant cast as unhealthy, etc.). It seems like GW2 may finally be headed in a more cohesive direction, is it worth holding on to antiquated design and dying on that hill, so to speak?

 

I'm not sure if or how it could make a difference at this point, but a little alignment between players and devs might help build some rapport and better dialogue. It's hard to have a genuine discussion if both sides just ignore the other.

Im sure me and most mesmers wouldnt accept any tradeoff for mirage anymore.
we know better, they dont give anything and always take.
I dont think I have every played a character in any game where developers delete traits from it on regular basis, but here we are.

[Allarius.5670]

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Im sure me and most mesmers wouldnt accept any tradeoff for mirage anymore.
we know better, they dont give anything and always take.
I dont think I have every played a character in any game where developers delete traits from it on regular basis, but here we are.

 

We can rage into the void in response to frustrating changes and choices, but the only real recourse is to just stop playing and remove ourselves from the equation entirely ... Or just accept the game on the terms with which it presents itself. This is all especially so if you don't have a voice in the discussion that would/could be listened to for whatever reason, reasonable or not.

 

The constant refusal/inability to directly address problematic mechanics and the affordance/willingness to only touch everything else around them instead ... It has left a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they try to put out a fire in the oven by putting something else to cook on the stove. Just what?! There must be someone or some decision that makes them present themselves as so unnecessarily stubborn, right?

 

It's a mess and it is taking so long to sort, if they even can/are allowed to. Without given more genuine glimpses into their thinking and reasoning, rather than just memes (though those are appreciated too), it is hard to find common ground and mutual understanding, much less direction. Even so, there will always be those that refuse to try based on principle, wholesale conceptual misalignment, or perceived malicious intent. 

 

Btw, I always appreciate your commentary, it  helps me to see more nuance to the game, its continued development, and the community.

[Leonidrex.5649]

23 minutes ago, Allarius.5670 said:

 

We can rage into the void in response to frustrating changes and choices, but the only real recourse is to just stop playing and remove ourselves from the equation entirely ... Or just accept the game on the terms with which it presents itself. This is all especially so if you don't have a voice in the discussion that would/could be listened to for whatever reason, reasonable or not.

 

The constant refusal/inability to directly address problematic mechanics and the affordance/willingness to only touch everything else around them instead ... It has left a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they try to put out a fire in the oven by putting something else to cook on the stove. Just what?! There must be someone or some decision that makes them present themselves as so unnecessarily stubborn, right?

 

It's a mess and it is taking so long to sort, if they even can/are allowed to. Without given more genuine glimpses into their thinking and reasoning, rather than just memes (though those are appreciated too), it is hard to find common ground and mutual understanding, much less direction. Even so, there will always be those that refuse to try based on principle, wholesale conceptual misalignment, or perceived malicious intent. 

 

Btw, I always appreciate your commentary, it  helps me to see more nuance to the game, its continued development, and the community.

which I did, not I play guardian/ranger and I have never been happier.
to top it off im waiting for lost ark to come out in EU while I play it in RU with vpn.

[Monkey See.1498]

4 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Im sure me and most mesmers wouldnt accept any tradeoff for mirage anymore.
we know better, they dont give anything and always take.
I dont think I have every played a character in any game where developers delete traits from it on regular basis, but here we are.

Don't think of it as "deleting" traits.  Think of it as correcting things that should have never been there in the first place. 

 

Now lets hit distortion for all the specs, not just chrono. 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Monkey See.1498

[Axl.8924]

4 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Im sure me and most mesmers wouldnt accept any tradeoff for mirage anymore.
we know better, they dont give anything and always take.
I dont think I have every played a character in any game where developers delete traits from it on regular basis, but here we are.

I agree with you on this actually on trust Its not just mesmers either nec ele rangers and warrs have taken multiple hits and some of it was questionable.

[Leonidrex.5649]

30 minutes ago, Monkey See.1498 said:

Don't think of it as "deleting" traits.  Think of it as correcting things that should have never been there in the first place. 

 

Now lets hit distortion for all the specs, not just chrono. 

its not gonna make you stop losing to mesmers tho, next you gonna hit stealth, then mantra, then GS burst, then confusion. 
There is no end.

[Leonidrex.5649]

26 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

I agree with you on this actually on trust Its not just mesmers either nec ele rangers and warrs have taken multiple hits and some of it was questionable.

Myabe, maybe not.
I think since I started playing ( 2 years ) mesmer got more traits removed then all other classes combined.

[Axl.8924]

1 minute ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Myabe, maybe not.
I think since I started playing ( 2 years ) mesmer got more traits removed then all other classes combined.

 

I noticed changes to chrono last time i got on the difference, and when they change ele it frustrates me to no end when they change or nerf abilities.

[Leonidrex.5649]

Just now, Axl.8924 said:

 

I noticed changes to chrono last time i got on the difference, and when they change ele it frustrates me to no end when they change or nerf abilities.

its fine to nerf things, but when developers only way to attempt balance is nerfs by magnitude of 80%-50% or even 100% nerf ( deletation )
you know they are kitten at their job, im sorry but thats just how it is.

[Axl.8924]

1 minute ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

its fine to nerf things, but when developers only way to attempt balance is nerfs by magnitude of 80%-50% or even 100% nerf ( deletation )
you know they are kitten at their job, im sorry but thats just how it is.

As soon as i saw a thread in mesmer thread after being excited on the primse of trying out mirage for the first time, i got nervous and even thought well maybe il just go play weaver as soon as i get POF.

 

I think this sort of attitude you described might be even killing people's enthusiasm for the game.

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 minute ago, Axl.8924 said:

As soon as i saw a thread in mesmer thread after being excited on the primse of trying out mirage for the first time, i got nervous and even thought well maybe il just go play weaver as soon as i get POF.

 

I think this sort of attitude you described might be even killing people's enthusiasm for the game.

it 100% killed mine, even before I did much pvp I was kind of sick with chrono changes
I like what they did with holo, slow nerfs to right things untill it went from S+ to A tier. but most other classes get those kittening 80-50% deletation.

[Axl.8924]

Just now, Leonidrex.5649 said:

it 100% killed mine, even before I did much pvp I was kind of sick with chrono changes
I like what they did with holo, slow nerfs to right things untill it went from S+ to A tier. but most other classes get those kittening 80-50% deletation.

Thats why i'm defensive on classes i enjoy such as ele thief even nec, but the problem is that there is a very strong anti mesmer force and ANET doesn't seem to be slowing down on the nerf train. They stopped with necro and saw clearly there were folks out there biased and did. They do the same with thief with constant nerfs which drives people nuts.

You can clearly see it in pvp threads the bias towards thief and mesmers with shatters and thief mobility.

[Monkey See.1498]

27 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

its not gonna make you stop losing to mesmers tho, next you gonna hit stealth, then mantra, then GS burst, then confusion. 
There is no end.

Virtuoso is the end and what mesmer should always have been in terms of mechanics. 

[Leonidrex.5649]

6 minutes ago, Monkey See.1498 said:

Virtuoso is the end and what mesmer should always have been in terms of mechanics. 

I would say its a death to one of if not the most interesting class design of all time, but hey its all a matter of perspective 

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

How is this thread even real?

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

12 hours ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

How is this thread even real?

 

Because bad players would rather cry for devs to turn their enemies into training dummies than actually learn to play the game.

[Ithilwen.1529]

Well... returning after some months I see nothing's changed. I'm not holding out much hope for Virtuoso at this point. It's already underpowered before the release.

[Mik.3401]

On 9/4/2021 at 9:13 PM, Monkey See.1498 said:

Virtuoso is the end and what mesmer should always have been in terms of mechanics. 

There are YouTube videos on how to deal with fighting clones in pvp. It is actually very easy, I think it is worth for you to watch it to stop your passion about Mesmer.

I think you’re just getting farmed by Mesmers and that’s why you’re bitter, there has been a lot of valid points made in this topic but you seem to refuse the fact Mesmer is strongly underperforming 

[Pimsley.3681]

This thread is weirder than the "Home Instanced Cat" thread recently posted on here. 

 

Virtuoso needs polishing because it was a bit rough when I played it. Maybe it has potential but we'll see. The devs have made irrational class spec designs where instead of having the elites synchronize with core trait lines, they created a "substitute" spec inclined with  a difference class. 

 

 

[BlackTruth.6813]

ITT: mesmers who want virtouso to be equal to brain-damage shatter meta/mirage

 

Sucks that you all have to actually land high casting times this time around, truth hurts that you're all just bad at landing high casting times showing historically that everytime a mesmer went on a telegraphed class they all came back to instant cast because it was TOO HARD.

 

But sure, just increase it's damage ONLY and don't touch the casting times if it's THAT BAD. Can we all have a non-instant cast non-coward mesmer spec for once?

 

Or you know, how about we just balance all classes to Virtouso level, WHICH IS WHAT THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING FROM THE BEGINNING, BALANCE AROUND TELEGRAPHED CASTING TIMES.

 

 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 9/4/2021 at 2:32 PM, Allarius.5670 said:

I'm not sure if or how it could make a difference at this point, but a little alignment between players and devs might help build some rapport and better dialogue. It's hard to have a genuine discussion if both sides just ignore the other.

Devs don't care. Jazz worked with the mesmer pvp community to talk about mesmer, wrote a document to CmC about a year ago, the guy did never answer and I'm not sure he even read it. 

  

5 hours ago, BlackTruth.6813 said:

ITT: mesmers who want virtouso to be equal to brain-damage shatter meta/mirage

 

Sucks that you all have to actually land high casting times this time around, truth hurts that you're all just bad at landing high casting times showing historically that everytime a mesmer went on a telegraphed class they all came back to instant cast because it was TOO HARD.

 

But sure, just increase it's damage ONLY and don't touch the casting times if it's THAT BAD. Can we all have a non-instant cast non-coward mesmer spec for once?

 

Or you know, how about we just balance all classes to Virtouso level, WHICH IS WHAT THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING FROM THE BEGINNING, BALANCE AROUND TELEGRAPHED CASTING TIMES.

We already DO have skills with high casting times.
GS4 has about 1.5s effective cast time: 0.75s to summon the berserker, then 0.75s before the berserker actually hits anything, and the trait to give quickness to that phantasm is even bugged so you can't make it any faster no matter what you do.
Scepter 3 has 2.5s cast time, with higher cooldown, higher cast time and less power damage than comparable skills
Torch5 has 0.5s cast time, but before the phantasm actually attacks you'll have to wait anywhere between 1s and NEVER, so slow that you can walk beside it anyway; same goes for sword 5.
GS2 has 0.75s cast time, so telegraphed you'll never hit anything with it without stealth, and on top of that it bugs out if people walk inside you, going on full cd
I'm not talking about chrono wells for the sake of decency, because having to wait 4s for an actual effect is just ludicrous (and having 0.75s cast time on skills so forgettable is an actual sin)

The only offensive thing we can actually do with no cast time is dropping F1\F2 at point blank range -doing it beyond point blank will cause clones to just calmly jog towards their opponent, turning this "instant cast" into the single most telegraphed skill in game-. And I believe that going point blank in a class with 0 resustain, very limited cleanse, no protection, no barrier, no aegis and no stability is punishing enough.

The thing is, if you remove that instacast we're left on a light armor class with less stealth and mobility than a thief, no damage whatsoever, no boon generation at all, no team support and every skill has such a high cast time\cooldown you're just a punching ball.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

13 hours ago, BlackTruth.6813 said:

ITT: mesmers who want virtouso to be equal to brain-damage shatter meta/mirage

 

Sucks that you all have to actually land high casting times this time around, truth hurts that you're all just bad at landing high casting times showing historically that everytime a mesmer went on a telegraphed class they all came back to instant cast because it was TOO HARD.

 

But sure, just increase it's damage ONLY and don't touch the casting times if it's THAT BAD. Can we all have a non-instant cast non-coward mesmer spec for once?

 

Or you know, how about we just balance all classes to Virtouso level, WHICH IS WHAT THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING FROM THE BEGINNING, BALANCE AROUND TELEGRAPHED CASTING TIMES.

 

 

 

If you *at least* double the damage on every shatter and dagger skill, we can talk about virtuoso being decent, regardless of cast times. Telegraphed cast times is fine and all, but high-risk no-reward is objectively bad design.