No more chore-I mean "hearts" please!

[Devildoc.6721]

2 minutes ago, PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

you literally quoted my response.  So let me re quote myself with regard to those hearts.  i said:

 

"on some of those other maps with the repeating hearts as a way to continue engagement on the maps for rewards so those areas don't become dead zones."

Repeatable hearts do not lend engagement to the old maps.

Meta events/world bosses do.

People still do the world boss metas especially around reset time especially like Tequatl and such

those bring a lot more people to a map than repeatable hearts.

nobody goes "oh I'd better go and do my daily hearts in every zone", at best they are compelled to do them because they are either doing map completion, or because they want to buy something off the vendor and it's locked until you repeat the hearts each day.

and some "engagement" because hearts don't encourage playing together at all.  They're the one content type in the game where other players around you are a nuisance rather than a welcome sight, because you' can be competing over objectives for the hearts.

 

I complained about a heart involving dumping buckets of water on drunk pirates in istan

now what if I had to do that when there were 20+ other people trying to do it at the same time?

It'd complete excessively slowly since the drunk pirates wake up when other people splash them too, so you have to wait for another one to splash.

This doesn't happen in events, in fact, more people at events helps spawn champions for better loot so more people is often better (unless the scaling on the boss gets out of hand and all the people are 111111111 longbow rangers in soldier's gear)

[Vayne.8563]

1 minute ago, PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

 

And to that final sentiment i will requote myself...again.

 

" Now we can debate the over all efficiency of that design idea, sure, but without their (Anet's) numbers on this we would all basically be talking out our kittens."

 

Fact is, we can't say for certain whether or not those hearts kept people going to those maps or not.  I'd argue (personally) that unless I absolutely need something from those heart vendors I've not been back to those maps with the repeatable hearts or in the case of PoF, re-did those hearts unless I was bored/needed something from them as well.  However, I am only one player and MY experience is not the overall metric of the GW2 community and to assume it is would be arrogant.

Well I'm not saying the maps are less populated because of hearts, but you were saying that hearts are keeping zones populated and I'm saying the most populated zones seem not to have them.  They might keep people there a bit longer, but I don't see any evidence heart zones are more populated than non hot zones and that's my point.

[costepj.5120]

I think the heart system is absolutely fine. I manually level a character to 60 each week and they are a great source of XP. Very few take more than a few minutes to complete. And many of them are completed by doing an event that spawns in the vicinity.

[Vayne.8563]

6 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

It doesnt really matter that events are the backbone of the game and hearts were a late addition to launch. Hearts have existed for 9 years now so the point is moot. They are as much part of the game as anything else and were readded to the game due to feedback from players wanting them.

That doesn't mean they cant be improved or used better or perhaps once completed once, the vendor is perma open. But they arent bad content, they just arent everyone’s cup of tea. They must be popular though since they were readded from S3 onwards and they compliment events in the more relaxing maps rather well

Repeatable hearts have NOT existed for 9 years though. They didn't exist for half the games life. Asking for them not to make a comeback is the right of every player who doesn't want them in the game.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

3 minutes ago, Devildoc.6721 said:

Repeatable hearts do not lend engagement to the old maps.

Meta events/world bosses do.

People still do the world boss metas especially around reset time especially like Tequatl and such

those bring a lot more people to a map than repeatable hearts.

nobody goes "oh I'd better go and do my daily hearts in every zone", at best they are compelled to do them because they are either doing map completion, or because they want to buy something off the vendor and it's locked until you repeat the hearts each day.

and some "engagement" because hearts don't encourage playing together at all.  They're the one content type in the game where other players around you are a nuisance rather than a welcome sight, because you' can be competing over objectives for the hearts.

 

I complained about a heart involving dumping buckets of water on drunk pirates in istan

now what if I had to do that when there were 20+ other people trying to do it at the same time?

It'd complete excessively slowly since the drunk pirates wake up when other people splash them too, so you have to wait for another one to splash.

This doesn't happen in events, in fact, more people at events helps spawn champions for better loot so more people is often better (unless the scaling on the boss gets out of hand and all the people are 111111111 longbow rangers in soldier's gear)

 And AGAIN, I state: unless you are working off of metrics/data that Anet has regarding what does and doesn't actually contribute to map engagement in certain areas, you cannot say that they don't work with any real authority.  You can only make a judgement based on personal observation, which is different from raw data.  Furthermore, I could sit here and argue (anecdotally of course) that the world boss event meta hurts map engagement as it will suddenly fill and empty maps forcing shard resets and disrupting game flow for people not doing those events.  That could be jarring for new players being told to jump to a new shard suddenly if they don't know why that keeps happening.  And while I could say that, it doesn't necessarily make it completely true.

 

Complaining about a heart and its tedium though, especially when you can just not do it, is still my main point here.  Just don't do the heart.

[Randulf.7614]

Just now, Vayne.8563 said:

Repeatable hearts have NOT existed for 9 years though. They didn't exist for half the games life. Asking for them not to make a comeback is the right of every player who doesn't want them in the game.

Err I never said repeatable hearts have existed for 9 years. I also never said players shouldnt ask for them not to return. What are you even quoting here?

[Philapa.3842]

I dont mind hearts, but it would be nice to have the hearts change the reward types every so often.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

7 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Well I'm not saying the maps are less populated because of hearts, but you were saying that hearts are keeping zones populated and I'm saying the most populated zones seem not to have them.  They might keep people there a bit longer, but I don't see any evidence heart zones are more populated than non hot zones and that's my point.

No, I was saying that *Anet* seems to have intended that the repeatable hearts would help foster future engagement on those maps.  I also stated that without the actual numbers from Anet that NEITHER of us know with any certainty if that gambit worked for them.  We can discuss it anecdotally, but that's it.  I can sit here and come with with all kinds of casual observations about aspects of the game I play with regularity, but all of those observations are still being done in a vacuum.

 

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

1 minute ago, Philapa.3842 said:

I dont mind hearts, but it would be nice to have the hearts change the reward types every so often.

 

I think that is a great idea actually.

[Randulf.7614]

1 minute ago, Philapa.3842 said:

I dont mind hearts, but it would be nice to have the hearts change the reward types every so often.

Yes that would be a good idea. They could even remove them map exploration altogether. That means those who enjoy them can do them and those who do not can skip any that have no rewards they dont need

[Philapa.3842]

2 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Yes that would be a good idea. They could even remove them map exploration altogether. That means those who enjoy them can do them and those who do not can skip any that have no rewards they dont need

I would like to keep the map exploration because the pay-off is nice and I am nerdy and like to see things complete.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Philapa.3842

[Devildoc.6721]

6 minutes ago, PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

 And AGAIN, I state: unless you are working off of metrics/data that Anet has regarding what does and doesn't actually contribute to map engagement in certain areas, you cannot say that they don't work with any real authority.  You can only make a judgement based on personal observation, which is different from raw data.  Furthermore, I could sit here and argue (anecdotally of course) that the world boss event meta hurts map engagement as it will suddenly fill and empty maps forcing shard resets and disrupting game flow for people not doing those events.  That could be jarring for new players being told to jump to a new shard suddenly if they don't know why that keeps happening.  And while I could say that, it doesn't necessarily make it completely true.

 

Complaining about a heart and its tedium though, especially when you can just not do it, is still my main point here.  Just don't do the heart.

They're required as part of larger things.

always

if they were not required for map completion, or for unlocking the vendors, or for meta achievements.

then sure, I wouldn't do them

but you're compelled to do them to complete those larger things

so you saying "oh just don't do them if you don't like them" is just as stupid and inane as saying "if you don't like hearts just don't play the game"

it's a small part of a greater whole.

it's just an annoying part that should no longer be a part of the game since they were not part of the original design and go completely against the spirit of the game.

[radda.8920]

this community loves to grind, you are wasting your time

[KerryTT.4792]

I have no issue with them personally (except you, Tawny Ridge....). I really like the ones where I get to play with pups or kitties. Almost all my characters have completed all the base maps (the almost part being I have not completed the cities in most cases).

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

Just now, Devildoc.6721 said:

They're required as part of larger things.

always

if they were not required for map completion, or for unlocking the vendors, or for meta achievements.

then sure, I wouldn't do them

but you're compelled to do them to complete those larger things

so you saying "oh just don't do them if you don't like them" is just as stupid and inane as saying "if you don't like hearts just don't play the game"

it's a small part of a greater whole.

it's just an annoying part that should no longer be a part of the game since they were not part of the original design and go completely against the spirit of the game.

 

Core game hearts are "required" if you want to get a legendary (which I already addressed in my original post) and I will again argue that the grind of getting your crafting up and all the materials for the legendary is WAY worse than the "horror" of doing the core game hearts, no matter how tedious some of them might be.

 

Once you've gotten the meta achievements on another map that might require that heart, you don't ever have to do it again after that first time if you don't want to, and if you don't care about it in the first place you can also avoid it all together.  I personally HATE doing bounties on PoF maps, but I accept I have to do certain ones if I want certain collections.  I still dislike most of the adventures in HoT, but accept I need to do them a few times to get other things I might want.  

 

As for the whole what was and wasn't part of the design in the game:  hearts have been in the live game since day 1.  (Please note I said LIVE game, not Beta, I've been here since the literal beginning).  In the "original design of the game" we had personality traits that were supposed to mean something and a whole slew of other things that were quietly shelved as ideas too.  In short, things change, but hearts were there from the start of the main game.  Technically speaking we had waypoints since the start of the game and mounts technically "go against the spirit of the game as well", but we have them now and the world has not burned to the ground.  Its all good.  Unless you have a reason to complete all the hearts, there is no reason to do them.  I have about 30 toons across 3 accounts, I've only map completed in tyria twice and might do it two more times and only because i have two legendaries to work on.

[Tatwi.3562]

35 minutes ago, costepj.5120 said:

I think the heart system is absolutely fine. I manually level a character to 60 each week and they are a great source of XP. Very few take more than a few minutes to complete. And many of them are completed by doing an event that spawns in the vicinity.

I like them too. They're fine. People will complain about anything.

[Tyncale.1629]

I like the Hearts better then the system they have in WoW and FF14. Hearts are tied to a very local area and usually you already start to fill that Heart when you are just exploring/fighting in the area anyway. 

 

I like Dynamic Events even more, I love running into them, however these are not always around, and waiting for one to start is not that much fun.   I think Anet has found a nice middle road here.  

 

I agree that the repeatable Hearts are busywork, but I guess we can forgive Anet to create "content" like that.  If it is for some collection it is not so bad: you can  get re-acquainted with the area and some Lore  which can be fun.    However I do dislike the grinds where you have to do the Hearts every day to get a once-a-day item from the Heart vendor, like the Funerary Incenses.   But even then Anet has given players more options to obtain the same materials.  Tbh, they are pretty good at this. 

 

An important side-effect of this is, that you will always see some players in a map, no matter how old the map is. Core maps in GW2 still have players and sometimes lots of them. You can forget that in WoW and Everquest.  Total abandonment. 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Tyncale.1629

[Fueki.4753]

If you don't like hearts, don't do them.

I like hearts.

 

The only thing I'd change about hearts is making the reset of repeatable hearts optional.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

2 hours ago, Kraggy.4169 said:

GW1 DID have quests they were just not called thar!

I am quite sure GW1 called it's quests "quests" and I have big journal menu to manage those quests in there. 😉

They even had a split between main quests, and side quests, and you had to return those quests for rewards at an NPC - not always the same one that gave them tho.

It is GW2 that tried to be "different than your other MMO" and removed "quests as we know it" from the design board.

[Jilora.9524]

Heart replace quests. I mean most games go kill 20 worms you be fine with it for a quest. Or put out 10 fires with a bucket of water but hearts usually have multiple ways to complete them unlike quests so if you prefer to mass kill mobs or put out fires you can chose either or a combo of both. Sure some hearts have no leeway and are annoying but so are many quests in games. Imagining core with no hearts and w/o quests to replace would be running from event to event only to level as a new player and map complete would be cut to 1/3 the time so hearts are needed for the leveling to 80 at first. Now the reason in Hot or ls they are mostly gone is we are all 80 so they weren't really needed anymore and in PoF  were added back I guess as a means to grind currency as you could buy 5 a day so removing those w/o adding new ways to get currency would of made grinding worse. They also put repeatable so you could do it daily on 1 character so you wouldn't be limited I guess and forced to run alts to do hearts over and over you can just do them again the next day.

Are hearts better then quests? Does Eod need hearts? Core had hearts and was fine. HoT didn't and was fine. PoF had them again as repeatable and I repeated them dozens of times because they locked currency behind them and found that better then if say I had to grind events.

All in all I look at hearts as quests with multiple ways to complete them which I personally found better then repeating the same quests over and over in other games when you made alts so I guess I wouldn't mind hearts in EoD but it won't be life altering if they aren't there.

 

[Vayne.8563]

40 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Err I never said repeatable hearts have existed for 9 years. I also never said players shouldnt ask for them not to return. What are you even quoting here?

Well, the main argument in this thread is for the OP asking for them not to return. No one is asking for existing hearts to be removed. So what exactly was the point of your post?

[Vayne.8563]

37 minutes ago, PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

No, I was saying that *Anet* seems to have intended that the repeatable hearts would help foster future engagement on those maps.  I also stated that without the actual numbers from Anet that NEITHER of us know with any certainty if that gambit worked for them.  We can discuss it anecdotally, but that's it.  I can sit here and come with with all kinds of casual observations about aspects of the game I play with regularity, but all of those observations are still being done in a vacuum.

 

I believe Anet introduced those repeatable hearts because people asked for them, not realizing that a lot of people really don't like that. I'd have no problem if I could access the vendor after I did it one time and never had to do it again to access the vendor. Then it could stay repeatable. But making me do something I don't enjoy again just to access the vendor is simply annoying to me.

[Farohna.6247]

I don't mind the hearts, I definitely prefer when there are only like four or five on a map for repeat exploration.  It helps get people into areas that they might not frequent or see events they might miss.  And you don't have to do the heart requirements quite often, that is the events nearby often fill them without even having to do the specifics.  GW2 has found a nice middle ground that departs from the usual run across the world to get a cup of tea to run back to have them ask for some cream, to run back with that, to have the quest giver complain it's cold.  Unless it's for something specific, I don't repeat them on a daily basis.

[Randulf.7614]

4 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Well, the main argument in this thread is for the OP asking for them not to return. No one is asking for existing hearts to be removed. So what exactly was the point of your post?

I never referred to anyone wanting them removed either. I think the heat of discussion is clearly making you misinterpret, so I wont continue the discussion further after this since its clear things are being added to what I said, that i never mentioned or referred to.

 

Ill reaffirm my position. They are a staple part of the core-post launch design (pre launch isnt relevant anymore) and I was very happy they returned as repeatable content in S3. I hope they continue to form part of the game, albeit with modifications such as more strategic use and perhaps perma unlocking of the vendors or even not tying to map exploration. There’s no reason not to find a middle ground.

[Vayne.8563]

1 minute ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I never referred to anyone wanting them removed either. I think the heat of discussion is clearly making you misinterpret, so I wont continue the discussion further after this since its clear things are being added to what I said, that i never mentioned or referred to.

 

Ill reaffirm my position. They are a staple part of the core-post launch design (pre launch isnt relevant anymore) and I was very happy they returned as repeatable content in S3. I hope they continue to form part of the game, albeit with modifications such as more strategic use and perhaps perma unlocking of the vendors or even not tying to map exploration. There’s no reason not to find a middle ground.

The middle ground for me is simple. If you're going to put hearts back in, and I still hope they don't, and if they're going to be repeatable, allow me to access the merchant without repeating them.  I'd be okay with that.  Not thrilled mind you, but okay.