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Devs liked WvW, but after ruining it stopped caring


Fatal.1347

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Its simple. They used to like WvW and play it quite a lot before HoT and had all these awesome ideas of new maps, new siege, new objective giggles. You know, they were inspired by their love for WvW.

Then they introduced HoT with desert map, structure buffs, faster upgrade times, dolyak escort buffs AND BOOOM! WvW sucked. Their inspiration fell down a steep cliff.

Of course they tried to fix the obvious things that even 20 IQ monkey would realise was wrong like Dragon banners as even PvE streamers were screeching about them, but they never got true grasp of why WvW sucked: it started playing itself in only 1 pattern. They could have come up with fixes themselves but were incapable as they didn't like WvW anymore so they didn't play it as much.

Siege meta: Shield gens and golems. No counter.  Fighting meta: Open field, objective fights sucked.  Scouting meta: Everything T3 in 1 hour and only blobs could touch it. Roaming meta: Dolly escorter always wins and only ganking (dueling died with unfair stat advantages and SM being T3 50%+ of the day). Sniping key objectives like T3 north towers just became long range catapult fiesta.

WvW used to be this gamemode where you had options for strategies and counter strategies while being able to have nice battles anywhere. But they took both of these qualities away. One with structure buffs providing fluctuating up to 15% damage and 20% defence bonus changing between 3 servers. Enemy hits your keep with golems/rams and shield gens? Only solution: Bring more/better players! Enemy has minstrel dolly escorter? Bring more/better players! Enemy has fully upgraded home borderland? You better have a lot of players! Oh yeah, and don't try to improve your server, your playerbase is gonna reset every 2 months anyways. Once you make a good server, lazy maggots are gonna transfer for 500 gems and take over the best timezones.

So there is no short term thinking, and there are no long term goals anymore. It was fun learning the new stuff, HoT specs were a blast at least, but once people got their guild halls upgraded and learnt how to use shield gens and tactivators, it played itself.

Btw PoF meta is garbage. But HoT was the real problem that made every day the same.

Their ideas were great. Like guild buffs, sure. But maybe they should have been changed to out-of-combat buffs long time ago. Shield gen maybe shouldn't block all siege fire but reduce incoming damage to siege and players by considerable amount. Dolyak escort buff 90%, really? 50% would have been enough. Autoupgrades? Amazing. But why also tune down tune down the upgrade times for certain objectives to 10 times less? It was just all too much.

Edited by Fatal.1347
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2 hours ago, Fatal.1347 said:

Its simple. They used to like WvW and play it quite a lot before HoT and had all these awesome ideas of new maps, new siege, new objective giggles. You know, they were inspired by their love for WvW.

Then they introduced HoT with desert map, structure buffs, faster upgrade times, dolyak escort buffs AND BOOOM! WvW sucked. Their inspiration fell down a steep cliff.

Of course they tried to fix the obvious things that even 20 IQ monkey would realise was wrong like Dragon banners as even PvE streamers were screeching about them, but they never got true grasp of why WvW sucked: it started playing itself in only 1 pattern. They could have come up with fixes themselves but were incapable as they didn't like WvW anymore so they didn't play it as much.

Siege meta: Shield gens and golems. No counter.  Fighting meta: Open field, objective fights sucked.  Scouting meta: Everything T3 in 1 hour and only blobs could touch it. Roaming meta: Dolly escorter always wins and only ganking (dueling died with unfair stat advantages and SM being T3 50%+ of the day). Sniping key objectives like T3 north towers just became long range catapult fiesta.

WvW used to be this gamemode where you had options for strategies and counter strategies while being able to have nice battles anywhere. But they took both of these qualities away. One with structure buffs providing fluctuating up to 15% damage and 20% defence bonus changing between 3 servers. Enemy hits your keep with golems/rams and shield gens? Only solution: Bring more/better players! Enemy has minstrel dolly escorter? Bring more/better players! Enemy has fully upgraded home borderland? You better have a lot of players! Oh yeah, and don't try to improve your server, your playerbase is gonna reset every 2 months anyways. Once you make a good server, lazy maggots are gonna transfer for 500 gems and take over the best timezones.

So there is no short term thinking, and there are no long term goals anymore. It was fun learning the new stuff, HoT specs were a blast at least, but once people got their guild halls upgraded and learnt how to use shield gens and tactivators, it played itself.

Btw PoF meta is garbage. But HoT was the real problem that made every day the same.

Their ideas were great. Like guild buffs, sure. But maybe they should have been changed to out-of-combat buffs long time ago. Shield gen maybe shouldn't block all siege fire but reduce incoming damage to siege and players by considerable amount. Dolyak escort buff 90%, really? 50% would have been enough. Autoupgrades? Amazing. But why also tune down tune down the upgrade times for certain objectives to 10 times less? It was just all too much.

Nope. 

 

Don't try to rewrite history.

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Ever since HoT, every time anet put something into WvW, it took away from the experience. Gliding took away strategizing around fall damage and being mindful of cliffs, watch towers took away small groups attacking structures, and mounts took away any threat of traveling across the map (and gave people a tool to pick and choose what fights they want to participate in). These features turned WvW into a follow the tag lootstick simulator with 0 risk as long as you got the bigger numbers

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Hmmm, I wonder what might have happened around HoT which would have made it awkward to wear an Anet tag in WvW?

The problem wasn't a sudden loss of inspiration but that the changes they made were terribly received.  The reasons for this are myriad, but I'll hit the top three.  To be clear, part of the reason is that some of the changes were bad, but the reaction we saw far surpassed anything stemming from that reason.

1.) The Intended Audience Had Already Quit
The HoT changes to WvW definitely seemed inspired, to me, by people who loved the game mode.  Not all of them worked out, but I could at least see what they were trying to do.  However, there wasn't any communication about this in the years it was presumably being worked on.  This gave the impression that they didn't care.  People who grew tired of the various problems plaguing WvW began to quit.  Eventually, most of the people that remained prioritized things like open field fights over all of the other parts of WvW.  One of the best changes they made was to remove siege positions that could hit outer and inner or hit two walls at once (except the one corner at earthkeep).  However, there weren't too many people left who appreciated that and they were drowned out in the ruckus.

2.) Too Many Changes at Once
Since they simultaneously changed guild buffs, many organized WvW guilds mostly or wholly abandoned the game mode to try and get their quintessential +5 supply buff back.  This, among other factors, caused a huge population drop--far lower than what we see today.  Combined with no one knowing the map very well and many commanders slaving away in PvE for their guild hall, there was a significant shift in the flavor of WvW that was then blamed on whatever factors were shouted the loudest.  They also changed the upgrade system to one that tended towards fully upgraded maps at low populations instead of fully paper maps.  This led to a massive drop in the feasibility of the people on the map being able to threaten objectives which meant that nothing was driving players to fight each other.

3.) Odd Choice of Highlights.
The DBL trailer was all about flashy stuff with no mention of how the map actually improved WvW gameplay.  They really advertised those airkeep turrets like those were a thing that would make people excited to play the game.  In truth, they're positioned on paths that zergs rarely travel and were unlikely to make much of an impact, but since Anet played them up so much, people raged against them as if they were a thing that mattered.  Perhaps if they had mentioned that they actually planned yak pathing out so that objectives upgraded at roughly the same times and the northern towers weren't half-orphaned anymore then the conversation would have been different.  Instead, they positioned themselves firmly outside of having designed the map with gameplay in mind, even though they clearly did.

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Remember when this game released, and there was no hit-cap? Groups of 3-4 would roam around wiping full zergs in an instant? Yea, that was what introduced the zerg fiesta. Punished players who were meticulous and tactful to allow 1-2 classes to support an entire zerg. 
ie...

p1: Guardian, necro, fluff, fluff, fluff

p2: guardian, necro, fluff, fluff, scrapper

p3: guardian, necro, fluff, fluff, oh look a SpellBreaker

p4: guardian, necro, (There seems to be a trend here)

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I mean the state of WvW in the EU isn't great ATM either, especially since every other commander, pug and even guilds, are still transferring to stack on servers.

 

Looking below T2, it looks kind of bleak besides the weekends and prime time, unless you aren't stacked. Maybe we'll see more activity this autumn or not.

 

Edited by CrimsonNeonite.1048
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Your thoughts are nice but somewhat inaccurate.

 

The devs have directly said its things like transfers, GvG, etc. that had hurt WvW. The overall shift from objective-based fighting to just fighting; seeking large-scale PvP and not RvR gameplay. They implemented some fixes to try and get the problematic elements out of the main game mode, but unfortunately it was too late.

 

Management decisions likely kept transfers in, not the devs. They aren't really in control of anything.

 

Tournaments leading to burn out worsened the situation all around, and is why they went away for good. This was cited as a direct cause of permanent and overwhelming loss of player numbers.

 

Mistakes like the powercreep in HoT/PoF classses and crippling Core classes did affect things, but all of that had a very small impact on WvW compared to "fight guild" bandwagoning trains. You need to understand the big picture, but that's only possible if you've played other RvR games before, I think.

 

One thing I can tell you is cult-like behavior isn't good for anything.

Edited by Hannelore.8153
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19 hours ago, LetoII.3782 said:

Fairly certain Anet said the GvG'rs ruined the game mode.

Nah.

What really happened was an Anet dev got in an argument with players when they mistook a gvg for win trading.   https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Some-ANET-interfered-with-our-GvG/page/1

It sounds really dumb now (and quite dumb at the time), but do understand it was in 2013 when things were relatively new and GvG was pretty much concocted by a small part of the community. And even these days, "GvG who?" is a common response.

Some actual proof of this silliness where people basically agreed with the dev: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Some-ANET-interfered-with-our-GvG/2942231

Due to this incident the Obsidian Sanctum was created, which pretty much legitimized the whole thing. This also resulted in the meme of "violating my game mode" which has been somewhat taken out of context since.

If GvGs had ruined the game mode, they would have not made the arena, and recently the one in EOTM.

As a final note, I've actually played with the dev in question, and they seemed pretty into this game mode. It really just seemed to be a mistake. I mean PPT memes aside, this IS how they envisioned their game to be played.

Edited by ArchonWing.9480
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It has less to do with them "losing inspiration" and far more to do with them losing literally any and all development staff who gave a kitten about the content or were capable of creating more of it

It's the same story for pretty much every other aspect of them gave that has been left to rot on the vine

"So and So was the only person keeping content X going and they don't work here anymore" is the end result of almost every dig into why something hasn't been updated in years

The amount of dev staff that are still around from the "good old days" is probably in the single digits and most of them are likely management who are just there to facilitate bean counter decisions at this point

Edited by Substance E.4852
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On 8/27/2021 at 4:10 AM, jwhite.7012 said:

Remember when this game released, and there was no hit-cap? Groups of 3-4 would roam around wiping full zergs in an instant? Yea, that was what introduced the zerg fiesta. Punished players who were meticulous and tactful to allow 1-2 classes to support an entire zerg. 
ie...

p1: Guardian, necro, fluff, fluff, fluff

p2: guardian, necro, fluff, fluff, scrapper

p3: guardian, necro, fluff, fluff, oh look a SpellBreaker

p4: guardian, necro, (There seems to be a trend here)


Yup,every change they ever made was strictly against roamers and small scale. Look alone how many counters they introduced against stealth,which is mainly used by roamers or solo players aswell. Its getting harder every patch for smaller groups or roamers to take down more as they are with all the added sustain ontop currently aswell,which is broken af.

Edited by Caedmon.6798
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59 minutes ago, Caedmon.6798 said:


Yup,every change they ever made was strictly against roamers and small scale. Look alone how many counters they introduced against stealth,which is mainly used by roamers or solo players aswell. Its getting harder every patch for smaller groups or roamers to take down more as they are with all the added sustain ontop currently aswell,which is broken af.

 

Stealth is pretty broken in WvW, so no surprise there.  Besides, if they hadn't done this what would thief players tell people when they go defend stealth in this game?  Counter it by waiting for the thief to decide when you're allowed to attack them?

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6 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

 

Stealth is pretty broken in WvW, so no surprise there.  Besides, if they hadn't done this what would thief players tell people when they go defend stealth in this game?  Counter it by waiting for the thief to decide when you're allowed to attack them?

The original zerg buster comps were actually mesmer, warrior, warrior. Not even thief. Thief later became a popular addition for cluster bombing and the thief elite spin-to-win. 

 

There were a lot of zerg buster comps, which imo, were the healthiest wvw had ever felt. Sure, it felt bad when 3-5 players took out 50, but it also made people play in smaller 10-15 man zergs. There were fights taking place all over the map, and it was pretty easy to just hop into a skirmish. It was pretty great though when 4-5 commander tags would group up and hit multiple walls on a keep though. High energy, and fast paced fights in WvW were truly amazing. 

 

edit: with the implementations of runes like trappers and some of these new elite specs- it would be crazy to see the kind of zerg busting comps that would be around today if hit-cap was reverted. 

Edited by jwhite.7012
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On 8/26/2021 at 10:35 PM, Fatal.1347 said:

Its simple. They used to like WvW and play it quite a lot before HoT and had all these awesome ideas of new maps, new siege, new objective giggles. You know, they were inspired by their love for WvW.

Then they introduced HoT with desert map, structure buffs, faster upgrade times, dolyak escort buffs AND BOOOM!

 

AND BOOM ! Sh*tstorm from a lazy and ungrateful gamer community that flushed down the skritt-dump 90% of the awesome ideas they created with passion, dedication, money and dev time.

 

So, no more candies, no more time for WvWers that only want to zeg in circles around alpine. Proof is : they're still rolling and rolling.

 

That and the GvG thing too.

 

Edited by ThomasC.1056
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On 8/26/2021 at 10:35 PM, Fatal.1347 said:

They used to like WvW and play it quite a lot before HoT and had all these awesome ideas of new maps, new siege, new objective giggles. You know, they were inspired by their love for WvW.

Then they introduced HoT with desert map, structure buffs, faster upgrade times, dolyak escort buffs AND BOOOM! WvW sucked. Their inspiration fell down a steep cliff.

They basically painted themselves into a corner and then lost inspiration. They misread the entire game mode and most of it's playerbase. They had all these ideas but they were for the most part looked at from pve players perspective. They viewed it from the wrong angle, from their own angle playing casual wvw an hour a week thinking guilds are obstacles instead of assets and that all of us wanted all these pve mechanics.

 

Sure some roamers and new players liked it but many hated it from the start. And Desert border went from being this new and exciting map (lol) to a handicap map for the server that wins the match up. 

 

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