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Revitalizing Warrior: Re-working the Sword


CalmTheStorm.2364

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Revitalizing Warrior:  Re-working the Sword

That sword is a woefully-underperforming weapon needs little explanation.  So with no further ado, here are my suggestions for a re-work (please note: I have drawn inspiration from many sources in coming up with these skills, including many well-conceived ideas on these forums.  Kudos to those authors):

*Note: damage numbers are approximations based on running Berserker’s gear with fighter rune (PVP values)

 

F1:  Final Thrust

Now a leap attack (channeling Saito’s Gatotsu for any that catch that reference) with Range 450. 

3/4s cast time; Targets: 1

Same damage as it currently does (approx. 900 when health >50%; 1800 when health <50%).  This is the same for all tiers of burst.

Attack now inflicts bleeding regardless of whether target is <50% health or not.  Bleeding increases based on adrenaline level:

Level 1: 3 stacks bleeding if target >50% health; 6 stacks if <50% health

Level 2: 4 stacks/8 stacks

Level 3: 5 stacks/10 stacks

 

Sword 1: AA Chain:

Same skills/damage as it does currently but remove after-cast from all skills and change activation times to 1/4s, 1/4s, and 1/2s for first, second, and third attacks, respectively.

 

Sword 2: Savage Leap

Same as it currently is but no longer applies cripple.  Instead, the attack is a 3/4s evade.

 

Sword 3: Galrath Slash  (Any GW1 vets remember this one?)

Attack foes with a powerful slash that applies Weakness (5s)

Cast time 1/2s,  CD 12s

Targets 3

Damage ~1200

 

Sword 4:  Impale/Rip

Same as it is now, but instead of impale applying cripple, it inflicts 2s of immobilize

 

Sword 5: Bonetti’s Defense (another GW1 throw-back)

Spin your swords around you, evading attacks while inflicting bleeding slashes upon your foes.  Gain adrenaline for each attack evaded.  [Imagine Flurry plus thief’s Dagger Storm].  May move while using.

Damage/bleeding same as Flurry currently. Does NOT apply immobilize.

Cast time 3s, CD 30s

Targets: 5

Evade: 3s

Adrenaline gain per attack evaded: 1

 

Discussion:

The new burst will keep the finishing power of Final Thrust while making it a more consistent applier of condition damage.  Also, the 3/4s cast time is ridiculous for what it currently does (Axe 4 does the same amount of dmg regardless of health level and has 1/2 s cast time).  The new skill retains the 3/4s cast time but makes use of it as a gap-closer.  This, in combination with Savage Leap, will give Sword main hand excellent mobility and make it easier to land Sword’s biggest damage spike.  Also note that the damage potential is available at Level 1 burst, meaning that all classes of Warrior, even SpB, can make good use of it.

 

Our current AA chain is terrible because it is SO. KITTEN.  SLOW.  This is odd, as Sword (in GW1 at least) was conceived of as the “fast attacking” weapon.  So let’s speed it up a bit.  This will allow for a more sustained damage output (and condi application) from sword main-hand.

 

Turning Savage Leap into an evade is an attempt to lessen our reliance on GS.  I am increasingly convinced that Whirlwind attack is the MVP skill of the GS because it is an evade on short cool down.  This (along with other things) makes GS incredibly difficult to forgo.  By adding a low-CD evade to sword, I hope to give players an alternative to GS in this respect.  Alternatively, you could potentially take GS and S/x to make use of 2 evades on short cooldown, possibly allowing us to forgo shield in favor of a more offensive off-hand weapon.

 

Bringing back Galrath Slash is an attempt to further increase Sword’s spike damage potential.  It’s not explicitly a source of condi damage, but the application of weakness is an important defensive tool and offers synergy with Cull the Weak.

 

Impale/Rip is kinda gimmicky, to be honest, but I think it has some potential.  Changing the cripple to immobilize offers a few important things: a.) Proc’s the Opportunist trait in Arms, b.) facilitates using Rip, c.) synergizes with Torment (since immob’d foes take more damage), and d.) is tactically much more useful than cripple.

 

Bonetti’s defense would allow us a powerful defensive/offensive tool that would allow us to escape survive bursts while simultaneously pressuring the enemy and/or providing presence in the middle of a team fight.

 

These changes will make Sword a well-rounded weapon capable of significant damage spikes, excellent mobility, good condi application, and powerful defensive measures.  This will be a strong improvement in all content, PvE included.  Moreover, the more consistent condi application will help make a condi-warrior (outside of berserker) more of a viable reality.

 

Alright, novella completed.  I look forward to your commentary and ideas for improvement!

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1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Revitalizing Warrior:  Re-working the Sword

That sword is a woefully-underperforming weapon needs little explanation.  So with no further ado, here are my suggestions for a re-work (please note: I have drawn inspiration from many sources in coming up with these skills, including many well-conceived ideas on these forums.  Kudos to those authors):

*Note: damage numbers are approximations based on running Berserker’s gear with fighter rune (PVP values)

 

F1:  Final Thrust

Now a leap attack (channeling Saito’s Gatotsu for any that catch that reference) with Range 450. 

3/4s cast time; Targets: 1

Same damage as it currently does (approx. 900 when health >50%; 1800 when health <50%).  This is the same for all tiers of burst.

Attack now inflicts bleeding regardless of whether target is <50% health or not.  Bleeding increases based on adrenaline level:

Level 1: 3 stacks bleeding if target >50% health; 6 stacks if <50% health

Level 2: 4 stacks/8 stacks

Level 3: 5 stacks/10 stacks

 

Sword 1: AA Chain:

Same skills/damage as it does currently but remove after-cast from all skills and change activation times to 1/4s, 1/4s, and 1/2s for first, second, and third attacks, respectively.

 

Sword 2: Savage Leap

Same as it currently is but no longer applies cripple.  Instead, the attack is a 3/4s evade.

 

Sword 3: Galrath Slash  (Any GW1 vets remember this one?)

Attack foes with a powerful slash that applies Weakness (5s)

Cast time 1/2s,  CD 12s

Targets 3

Damage ~1200

 

Sword 4:  Impale/Rip

Same as it is now, but instead of impale applying cripple, it inflicts 2s of immobilize

 

Sword 5: Bonetti’s Defense (another GW1 throw-back)

Spin your swords around you, evading attacks while inflicting bleeding slashes upon your foes.  Gain adrenaline for each attack evaded.  [Imagine Flurry plus thief’s Dagger Storm].  May move while using.

Damage/bleeding same as Flurry currently. Does NOT apply immobilize.

Cast time 3s, CD 30s

Targets: 5

Evade: 3s

Adrenaline gain per attack evaded: 1

 

Discussion:

The new burst will keep the finishing power of Final Thrust while making it a more consistent applier of condition damage.  Also, the 3/4s cast time is ridiculous for what it currently does (Axe 4 does the same amount of dmg regardless of health level and has 1/2 s cast time).  The new skill retains the 3/4s cast time but makes use of it as a gap-closer.  This, in combination with Savage Leap, will give Sword main hand excellent mobility and make it easier to land Sword’s biggest damage spike.  Also note that the damage potential is available at Level 1 burst, meaning that all classes of Warrior, even SpB, can make good use of it.

 

Our current AA chain is terrible because it is SO. KITTEN.  SLOW.  This is odd, as Sword (in GW1 at least) was conceived of as the “fast attacking” weapon.  So let’s speed it up a bit.  This will allow for a more sustained damage output (and condi application) from sword main-hand.

 

Turning Savage Leap into an evade is an attempt to lessen our reliance on GS.  I am increasingly convinced that Whirlwind attack is the MVP skill of the GS because it is an evade on short cool down.  This (along with other things) makes GS incredibly difficult to forgo.  By adding a low-CD evade to sword, I hope to give players an alternative to GS in this respect.  Alternatively, you could potentially take GS and S/x to make use of 2 evades on short cooldown, possibly allowing us to forgo shield in favor of a more offensive off-hand weapon.

 

Bringing back Galrath Slash is an attempt to further increase Sword’s spike damage potential.  It’s not explicitly a source of condi damage, but the application of weakness is an important defensive tool and offers synergy with Cull the Weak.

 

Impale/Rip is kinda gimmicky, to be honest, but I think it has some potential.  Changing the cripple to immobilize offers a few important things: a.) Proc’s the Opportunist trait in Arms, b.) facilitates using Rip, c.) synergizes with Torment (since immob’d foes take more damage), and d.) is tactically much more useful than cripple.

 

Bonetti’s defense would allow us a powerful defensive/offensive tool that would allow us to escape survive bursts while simultaneously pressuring the enemy and/or providing presence in the middle of a team fight.

 

These changes will make Sword a well-rounded weapon capable of significant damage spikes, excellent mobility, good condi application, and powerful defensive measures.  This will be a strong improvement in all content, PvE included.  Moreover, the more consistent condi application will help make a condi-warrior (outside of berserker) more of a viable reality.

 

Alright, novella completed.  I look forward to your commentary and ideas for improvement!

Very good ideas! 

 

If I am to add something that would be for impale to be of a higher range throw and rip to be a cool leap animation towards the enemy target, as @Lan Deathrider.5910 had suggested in a series of posts where we discussed on how OH weapons like Mace, Sword and Axe could use some short of leap finisher to compete with shield and have additional synergy.

 

 

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8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Revitalizing Warrior:  Re-working the Sword

That sword is a woefully-underperforming weapon needs little explanation.  So with no further ado, here are my suggestions for a re-work (please note: I have drawn inspiration from many sources in coming up with these skills, including many well-conceived ideas on these forums.  Kudos to those authors):

*Note: damage numbers are approximations based on running Berserker’s gear with fighter rune (PVP values)

 

F1:  Final Thrust

Now a leap attack (channeling Saito’s Gatotsu for any that catch that reference) with Range 450. 

3/4s cast time; Targets: 1

Same damage as it currently does (approx. 900 when health >50%; 1800 when health <50%).  This is the same for all tiers of burst.

Attack now inflicts bleeding regardless of whether target is <50% health or not.  Bleeding increases based on adrenaline level:

Level 1: 3 stacks bleeding if target >50% health; 6 stacks if <50% health

Level 2: 4 stacks/8 stacks

Level 3: 5 stacks/10 stacks

Sword is hybrid, and this really takes it into account. The current FT really doesn't. I think this would be good.

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Sword 1: AA Chain:

Same skills/damage as it does currently but remove after-cast from all skills and change activation times to 1/4s, 1/4s, and 1/2s for first, second, and third attacks, respectively.

A sword is a fast weapon. FWIW Warrior's sword AA chain is the fastest sword AA chain in the game already and is already faster than some dagger AA chains. This particular change would be too much to be honest.

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Sword 2: Savage Leap

Same as it currently is but no longer applies cripple.  Instead, the attack is a 3/4s evade.

I'd say keep the cripple, but if it had to be traded for the evade I'd take the evade.

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Sword 3: Galrath Slash  (Any GW1 vets remember this one?)

Attack foes with a powerful slash that applies Weakness (5s)

Cast time 1/2s,  CD 12s

Targets 3

Damage ~1200

Great idea, warrior doesn't have enough weakness.

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Sword 4:  Impale/Rip

Same as it is now, but instead of impale applying cripple, it inflicts 2s of immobilize

This would be functionally better.

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Sword 5: Bonetti’s Defense (another GW1 throw-back)

Spin your swords around you, evading attacks while inflicting bleeding slashes upon your foes.  Gain adrenaline for each attack evaded.  [Imagine Flurry plus thief’s Dagger Storm].  May move while using.

Damage/bleeding same as Flurry currently. Does NOT apply immobilize.

Cast time 3s, CD 30s

Targets: 5

Evade: 3s

Adrenaline gain per attack evaded: 1

In order to make other OH weapon viable they need to stand up to the defense of Shield. A 3s evade would certainly do that. This is kind of stealing an elite though. Perhaps changing it to a 3s block while attacking would be a more reasonable thing to do. Evades don't have counter play, blocks do.

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Discussion:

The new burst will keep the finishing power of Final Thrust while making it a more consistent applier of condition damage.  Also, the 3/4s cast time is ridiculous for what it currently does (Axe 4 does the same amount of dmg regardless of health level and has 1/2 s cast time).  The new skill retains the 3/4s cast time but makes use of it as a gap-closer.  This, in combination with Savage Leap, will give Sword main hand excellent mobility and make it easier to land Sword’s biggest damage spike.  Also note that the damage potential is available at Level 1 burst, meaning that all classes of Warrior, even SpB, can make good use of it.

 

Our current AA chain is terrible because it is SO. KITTEN.  SLOW.  This is odd, as Sword (in GW1 at least) was conceived of as the “fast attacking” weapon.  So let’s speed it up a bit.  This will allow for a more sustained damage output (and condi application) from sword main-hand.

 

Turning Savage Leap into an evade is an attempt to lessen our reliance on GS.  I am increasingly convinced that Whirlwind attack is the MVP skill of the GS because it is an evade on short cool down.  This (along with other things) makes GS incredibly difficult to forgo.  By adding a low-CD evade to sword, I hope to give players an alternative to GS in this respect.  Alternatively, you could potentially take GS and S/x to make use of 2 evades on short cooldown, possibly allowing us to forgo shield in favor of a more offensive off-hand weapon.

 

Bringing back Galrath Slash is an attempt to further increase Sword’s spike damage potential.  It’s not explicitly a source of condi damage, but the application of weakness is an important defensive tool and offers synergy with Cull the Weak.

 

Impale/Rip is kinda gimmicky, to be honest, but I think it has some potential.  Changing the cripple to immobilize offers a few important things: a.) Proc’s the Opportunist trait in Arms, b.) facilitates using Rip, c.) synergizes with Torment (since immob’d foes take more damage), and d.) is tactically much more useful than cripple.

 

Bonetti’s defense would allow us a powerful defensive/offensive tool that would allow us to escape survive bursts while simultaneously pressuring the enemy and/or providing presence in the middle of a team fight.

 

These changes will make Sword a well-rounded weapon capable of significant damage spikes, excellent mobility, good condi application, and powerful defensive measures.  This will be a strong improvement in all content, PvE included.  Moreover, the more consistent condi application will help make a condi-warrior (outside of berserker) more of a viable reality.

 

Alright, novella completed.  I look forward to your commentary and ideas for improvement!

Other than speeding up the already fastest sword AA chain and the 3s evade on sword 5 I pretty much agree with all of this, your reasoning is all spot on and this really would be a great way to rework sword/sword.

 

@Josh Davis.7865, I know CMC can't do this and I'm not sure who the right dev would be to direct this too, but these are for the most part good candidate skills for a warrior sword rework, which is kind of needed at this point.

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Any time you're imagining a brand new skill with new animations you're going full on into fanfiction territory. New animations are expensive. They don't even make that many new animations for elite specs, and those sell an expansion. 

 

Also minor issue, but you shouldn't put skill damage in terms of  "~2000 damage" etc. Every skill in this game has a power coefficient you can look up on the wiki - your power is multiplied by this number to calculate strike damage. If you want a skill to do exactly as much damage as a T3 Eviscerate in PvP for example, no matter how much power a build has, you would say it has 2.0 coeff. 

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5 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

Any time you're imagining a brand new skill with new animations you're going full on into fanfiction territory. New animations are expensive. They don't even make that many new animations for elite specs, and those sell an expansion. 

 

Also minor issue, but you shouldn't put skill damage in terms of  "~2000 damage" etc. Every skill in this game has a power coefficient you can look up on the wiki - your power is multiplied by this number to calculate strike damage. If you want a skill to do exactly as much damage as a T3 Eviscerate in PvP for example, no matter how much power a build has, you would say it has 2.0 coeff. 

Good points; thanks for bringing this up.

 

Re: Animations:

I had actually thought of this but didn't think it was necessary to include in the initial post.  Here are a few ideas for animation recycling:

 

F1 Final Thrust:  Combine bull's charge with the existing final thrust.  Bull's charge animation during the 450 range gap closer then the final thrust animation (very much sped up, of course) at the end.

 

S3 Galrath Slash:  Literally any slashing movement would do.

 

S5 Bonetti's Defense:  Re-use Ranger's Axe 5 Whirling defense (which is itself a similar animation to our own Axe 5 skill) .  It may be a little confusing to have both Axe 5 and Sword 5 have similar animations, but...I'm not worried.  Both animations should send the message to other players to "dodge now" so I don't really think it's much of an issue.

 

Re: Coefficients

Yes, I was aware of this, but it was a little too much for my little pea-brain late last night when I was making the OP.    Your point is well-taken, although I'm inclined to leave that level of granular design to the devs should they ever decide to act on these suggestions.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Sword is hybrid, and this really takes it into account. The current FT really doesn't. I think this would be good.

A sword is a fast weapon. FWIW Warrior's sword AA chain is the fastest sword AA chain in the game already and is already faster than some dagger AA chains. This particular change would be too much to be honest.

I'd say keep the cripple, but if it had to be traded for the evade I'd take the evade.

Great idea, warrior doesn't have enough weakness.

This would be functionally better.

In order to make other OH weapon viable they need to stand up to the defense of Shield. A 3s evade would certainly do that. This is kind of stealing an elite though. Perhaps changing it to a 3s block while attacking would be a more reasonable thing to do. Evades don't have counter play, blocks do.

Other than speeding up the already fastest sword AA chain and the 3s evade on sword 5 I pretty much agree with all of this, your reasoning is all spot on and this really would be a great way to rework sword/sword.

 

@Josh Davis.7865, I know CMC can't do this and I'm not sure who the right dev would be to direct this too, but these are for the most part good candidate skills for a warrior sword rework, which is kind of needed at this point.

Thanks, Lan!  I really appreciate your feedback.

 

Regarding your comments on the AA chain:

The current AA chain is instant cast, 1/2s, 1/4s.  It feels much slower than this, I think in large part because of lengthy after-cast on the first attack.  Additionally, the 1/2s cast time on the second attack makes it pretty difficult to land in many situations (unless your target is CC'd or doesn't know what they're doing).

 

The proposed change would, at least on paper, actually lengthen the total cast time (1/4s, 1/4s, 1/2s).  However, my hope is that, by eliminating after casts and backloading the longer cast time to the 3rd part of the chain, it will be easier to land more blows on a moving target (i.e., you're probably not gonna get all 3 hits in, but you're more likely to get 2).

 

I confess that I  don't have a great grasp on the mechanics of all of this, though (particularly the after casts), so I welcome any insights in case I'm missing something here.

 

Regarding Bonetti's Defense:

I agree, a 3s block would be a reasonable alternative.  I've just been a little jealous of thieves lately and figured that, if the sneaky bastards can get so many evades, maybe we could have a couple too 😄

Blocking, rather than evading, would be truer to the original Bonetti's Defense at any rate, too.

 

Thanks again!

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I respect your ideas and change for sword. But let clarify things here.

When you are playing GS Axe/shield as War Core or Spellbreaker you are really addressing that you are a offensive Warrior, your dmg normally  will comes from GS and your Axe/Shield is like a temporary solution of survability. This type of play is totally different from using the Sword. Sword don't  will do the DMG of a Axe or a GS. When you play  with GS you don't see any skill that provide your defense, you can of course get out of combat with rush and the other skill to run. But its main purpose is not that.

Now clarifying that, lets go to the point. When you take account of many warrior in our history most of them wore a good heavy armor, with a shield and a sword. Why that? They were made to fight for long time, they could kill a enemy in single x1, of course they could. But as they fought in a disciplined composition with others, they weren't made for single fight but to fight as hole body that move as one. That what make them lethal. This same is applied there with Warrior Sword.

As you pointed on your first part of your Topic about Berseker's gear and fight Rune :

 

16 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

*Note: damage numbers are approximations based on running Berserker’s gear with fighter rune (PVP values)

 

 

First, the Berserker gear is a trash gear for long fight which you will need survability and sustain. Second Berserker gear don't bring any benefits for your Sword weapon, since Sword weapons is a condi weapon. You are taking out half of its damage, by that you are underperfoming your weapon and your character. Third as I pointed above, the classic Warrior Sword/Shield is not lethal because of its damage, its lethal because they walk like a hole body of soldiers that walking in a strategic way and by that they become lethal, you can see this in WvW as bubbles/zergs/squads...

So Berseker is not the suited gear and fight rune is not the suited rune for your Sword Warrior.

Now about dual Sword. Dual Sword are a classic gladiator that above all discarded its shield in favor of a Sword. They don't have their shield for defend, but now they are more offensive than before. They weren't walking in a army composition, but in single points fights. They were lethal, but  on this you can make them be fast  lethal warrior or more kind of endurance warrior.


'There is items that I can mix GS with Sword/shield or GS with Sword/Sword?' Yeah GW2 allow you to do that. But any kind of composition affect your vitality and toughness. That why depend how you want to play.
@Grand Marshal.4098 have found good equipments for his theorycraft with Sword. Playing with Swords is very different them playing with GS. You are a Warrior if you are going to  hold a ground or you die defend it or the enemy fall. Don't expect to see low dmg on the front line and run when your life is going down. I have tested yesterday a new build with equipments for the front line and even that my squad got rushed by 2 other squad I won't die so easily by condi or strike dmg even without a supports and depend of the movement of my opponents i even could survive with tranquility.

The dmg of War Core Sword is not below of a Berserker Sword. You can still do 8k-10k with sword, but isn't the average dmg. Normally with a War Core Sword you gonna hit 6k, and more them that the enemy sure already be dead.

Edited by Broxxgar.6801
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3 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Thanks, Lan!  I really appreciate your feedback.

N

3 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Regarding your comments on the AA chain:

The current AA chain is instant cast, 1/2s, 1/4s.  It feels much slower than this, I think in large part because of lengthy after-cast on the first attack.  Additionally, the 1/2s cast time on the second attack makes it pretty difficult to land in many situations (unless your target is CC'd or doesn't know what they're doing).

 

The proposed change would, at least on paper, actually lengthen the total cast time (1/4s, 1/4s, 1/2s).  However, my hope is that, by eliminating after casts and backloading the longer cast time to the 3rd part of the chain, it will be easier to land more blows on a moving target (i.e., you're probably not gonna get all 3 hits in, but you're more likely to get 2).

 

I confess that I  don't have a great grasp on the mechanics of all of this, though (particularly the after casts), so I welcome any insights in case I'm missing something here.

Then why not switch the animation times, or the sequence itself. As I said the AA chain as is is already fairly fast for any AA chain.

3 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Regarding Bonetti's Defense:

I agree, a 3s block would be a reasonable alternative.  I've just been a little jealous of thieves lately and figured that, if the sneaky bastards can get so many evades, maybe we could have a couple too 😄

Blocking, rather than evading, would be truer to the original Bonetti's Defense at any rate, too.

Blocking would indeed be more in flavor.

3 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Thanks again!

np.

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22 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Then why not switch the animation times, or the sequence itself. As I said the AA chain as is is already fairly fast for any AA chain.

I feel like we are saying the same (or almost the same) thing.

 

In any event, I would gladly accept keeping the first AA attack as it is (instant) and then swapping the activation times of the 2nd and 3rd attack.  The attack chain would then look like: instant, 1/4s, 1/2s.

 

I think that's what you are proposing, and I think that's very reasonable.

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On 8/27/2021 at 1:29 PM, Broxxgar.6801 said:

I respect your ideas and change for sword. But let clarify things here.

When you are playing GS Axe/shield as War Core or Spellbreaker you are really addressing that you are a offensive Warrior, your dmg normally  will comes from GS and your Axe/Shield is like a temporary solution of survability. This type of play is totally different from using the Sword. Sword don't  will do the DMG of a Axe or a GS. When you play  with GS you don't see any skill that provide your defense, you can of course get out of combat with rush and the other skill to run. But its main purpose is not that.

Now clarifying that, lets go to the point. When you take account of many warrior in our history most of them wore a good heavy armor, with a shield and a sword. Why that? They were made to fight for long time, they could kill a enemy in single x1, of course they could. But as they fought in a disciplined composition with others, they weren't made for single fight but to fight as hole body that move as one. That what make them lethal. This same is applied there with Warrior Sword.

As you pointed on your first part of your Topic about Berseker's gear and fight Rune :

 

First, the Berserker gear is a trash gear for long fight which you will need survability and sustain. Second Berserker gear don't bring any benefits for your Sword weapon, since Sword weapons is a condi weapon. You are taking out half of its damage, by that you are underperfoming your weapon and your character. Third as I pointed above, the classic Warrior Sword/Shield is not lethal because of its damage, its lethal because they walk like a hole body of soldiers that walking in a strategic way and by that they become lethal, you can see this in WvW as bubbles/zergs/squads...

So Berseker is not the suited gear and fight rune is not the suited rune for your Sword Warrior.

Now about dual Sword. Dual Sword are a classic gladiator that above all discarded its shield in favor of a Sword. They don't have their shield for defend, but now they are more offensive than before. They weren't walking in a army composition, but in single points fights. They were lethal, but  on this you can make them be fast  lethal warrior or more kind of endurance warrior.


'There is items that I can mix GS with Sword/shield or GS with Sword/Sword?' Yeah GW2 allow you to do that. But any kind of composition affect your vitality and toughness. That why depend how you want to play.
@Grand Marshal.4098 have found good equipments for his theorycraft with Sword. Playing with Swords is very different them playing with GS. You are a Warrior if you are going to  hold a ground or you die defend it or the enemy fall. Don't expect to see low dmg on the front line and run when your life is going down. I have tested yesterday a new build with equipments for the front line and even that my squad got rushed by 2 other squad I won't die so easily by condi or strike dmg even without a supports and depend of the movement of my opponents i even could survive with tranquility.

The dmg of War Core Sword is not below of a Berserker Sword. You can still do 8k-10k with sword, but isn't the average dmg. Normally with a War Core Sword you gonna hit 6k, and more them that the enemy sure already be dead.

@Broxxgar.6801Thanks for your response.  I confess that I'm not entirely clear on the points you were trying to make; my apologies.

 

You offered many critiques of the Berserker gear idea.  I'd like to clarify that I was not recommending that people use Berserker gear with Sword (although I don't see why they couldn't).  I was trying to provide a reference point for the damage numbers I was attaching to skills.  As others have pointed out, a more precise way to do this would be to provide base damage and the power coefficients for the skill as provided in the Wiki.  I chose not to do this because a.) I was being lazy, and b.) I find it much harder to conceptualize the damage numbers when they are presented this way.  I personally tend to think of a skill's damage in terms of "Final thrust with Berserker's amulet (pvp) crits for about 6k."  I realize that's terribly imprecise and I feel a little ashamed to admit it, but that's just more realistic for me than working out a math problem every time I want to get an idea of how much damage a skill will do.  I also only play PvP, not WvW, so my thinking was centered around berserker's amulet in PvP.  Doubtless there would be many better gear choices in WvW.   I apologize if the way I presented things was confusing.

 

As for your other commentary, I didn't quite understand what you were saying about the proposed skill changes.  I kind of got the sense that you were saying, "Sword is fine as it is; you just need to embrace a different play style to make it work."  I would respectfully disagree with you if that's what you think, but I figured I'd clarify first to make sure I really understood what you were trying to say.

 

I would also disagree that sword is "a condi weapon."  I think it is definitely a hybrid weapon with significant condi potential, but I also think it has (and was intended to have) substantial potential as a power weapon (see final thrust and rip).  The changes I propose to the sword skills will (I hope) help sword to be playable both as a power weapon AND a condi weapon--or somewhere in between, that is, a true hybrid weapon.  

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While I dont mind some sword changes, final thrust as new F1 is sonething I strongly disagree with. MH sword is like 80%+ used by condi berserkers. And what is one of their tradeoffs? Having no regular bursts anymore (next to toughness penalty and no manual mode exit). 

 

So that means with a pure new power sword 3 skill berserker would be nerfed. The last thing warriors need are more buff nerfs

Edited by anbujackson.9564
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1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

@Broxxgar.6801Thanks for your response.  I confess that I'm not entirely clear on the points you were trying to make; my apologies.

 

You offered many critiques of the Berserker gear idea.  I'd like to clarify that I was not recommending that people use Berserker gear with Sword (although I don't see why they couldn't).  I was trying to provide a reference point for the damage numbers I was attaching to skills.  As others have pointed out, a more precise way to do this would be to provide base damage and the power coefficients for the skill as provided in the Wiki.  I chose not to do this because a.) I was being lazy, and b.) I find it much harder to conceptualize the damage numbers when they are presented this way.  I personally tend to think of a skill's damage in terms of "Final thrust with Berserker's amulet (pvp) crits for about 6k."  I realize that's terribly imprecise and I feel a little ashamed to admit it, but that's just more realistic for me than working out a math problem every time I want to get an idea of how much damage a skill will do.  I also only play PvP, not WvW, so my thinking was centered around berserker's amulet in PvP.  Doubtless there would be many better gear choices in WvW.   I apologize if the way I presented things was confusing.

 

As for your other commentary, I didn't quite understand what you were saying about the proposed skill changes.  I kind of got the sense that you were saying, "Sword is fine as it is; you just need to embrace a different play style to make it work."  I would respectfully disagree with you if that's what you think, but I figured I'd clarify first to make sure I really understood what you were trying to say.

 

I would also disagree that sword is "a condi weapon."  I think it is definitely a hybrid weapon with significant condi potential, but I also think it has (and was intended to have) substantial potential as a power weapon (see final thrust and rip).  The changes I propose to the sword skills will (I hope) help sword to be playable both as a power weapon AND a condi weapon--or somewhere in between, that is, a true hybrid weapon.  

Feel free, I'm not offending you. Its because Berseker Gear offer no sustain to any Warrior Build, Marauder and Destroyers even feel better than Beserker. But everyone choose its gear for each type of battle, I also have a berserker gear.

Why I say that Sword is a condi weapon. Probably you don't see it because you are very attached to power dmg that 'Final thrust' and 'Rip' brings, but they were design  for different occasion, look 'Final Thrust' its to pressure your opponent when he has less than 50% of HP, and Rip is like a combo that you use with Impale and Flurry.

How to see that sword is a condi weapon, of course it seem a hybrid weapon, the sword don't have the dmg of axe or GS, but does a little of power dmg.  Look at the arms traits:

Furious Burst: +180 of condi dmg

Deep Strikes: + 180 of Condi dmg

Blade Master: +120 of Expertise and +120 of Condi Dmg

BloodLust: Bleeding

Furious:  +10 of condi dmg for each critical strike.

All trait its show that increase the condi dmg, all the skill of sword apply conditions. Its like the more the opponent fight with you the more wrecked he will be. The sword is like hit them on a vital point and make them feel  it after the fight. See it like you are striking  the enemy body on vital point, he didn't feel the dmg on the moment, but after some time he start to see that this strikes was very deep, it striked a important artery/body organ and if he dont stop the bleeding it will bring his death, as more time passed, more bleeding is coming out.



 


How to test your build on PvP. First try your combo on a Necromancer NPC, if you kill him without any problems with your HP. Than the build is at least in a medium score. After that try to finish him without using the down foe skill 'f' keyboard. If you finish him just with your pure combo dmg without problems, the build is in good score. Than you can try to kill Svanir and Chief alone, If you finish them without using heal skill or have any problem and you need to kill it  fast, them your build is a excellent state and can be used on a PvP. To see if can achieve a meta state test it on Lord, if you kill all the Lord Guardian and make the health of the Lord down to 50%, you can be sure that you build can have chances to be a 'Meta'. Even that people don't know it and make Joke of it. 'Play your game and your Style'


I tested you Ideia yesterday, using GS and a correct gear to combine Sword/Sword and GS. I won 2 matchs with the build, I made little changes, put BC,Frenzy and Endure Pain. I tested it against many profession, I already tried this composition but without GS.

The test was Ok, the Gear make you feel very squish and any Ranger Profession probably would kill you. Spellbreaker was like joke to me, my Arc Slice was doing 4k on critical on a SB and the SB was dying by my condi them any dmg caused by GS. GS was just complementing my dmg, but  for sure  the GS was  doing nothing than give me a better movement. BC was just ensuring that my opponent was knocked down so I could use my Combo. I late change the build to bring more sustain, but yet I could not kill any proper Ranger Profession. The GS was underperfoming. I used your Fight Rune.

 

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1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

While I dont mind some sword changes, final thrust as new F1 is sonething I strongly disagree with. MH sword is like 80%+ used by condi berserkers. And what is one of their tradeoffs? Having no regular bursts anymore (next to toughness penalty and no manual mode exit). 

 

So that means with a pure new power sword 3 skill berserker would be nerfed. The last thing warriors need are more buff nerfs

I take your point. I considered that, too, but I think that having so many skills applying damaging condi might be overbearing.  My thought had been that, by improving the AA chain, Warrior/Berserker could keep up condi application while having some diversity in their skill set.

 

For the sake of discussion, though, here are a couple of alternative versions to S3 Galrath Slash:

1.) Decrease proposed physical damage by about 20% (maybe a little bit higher than Final Thrust when target health >50%)

Applies weakness (4s) and 3 stacks of bleeding (6s)

 

2.)  decrease physical damage by about 20%

Applies weakness (4s) and 5 stacks of vulnerability

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On 8/28/2021 at 3:36 PM, anbujackson.9564 said:

While I dont mind some sword changes, final thrust as new F1 is sonething I strongly disagree with. MH sword is like 80%+ used by condi berserkers. And what is one of their tradeoffs? Having no regular bursts anymore (next to toughness penalty and no manual mode exit). 

 

So that means with a pure new power sword 3 skill berserker would be nerfed. The last thing warriors need are more buff nerfs

Also, for those who are hesitant to make any changes to Final Thrust: Please consider that the skill is deeply flawed in its current state:

-only applies condis if target is <50%

-3/4s cast time means the target usually needs to be CC'd or immob'd to land it, esp since the range is only 130

-the damage isn't worth the cast time if target has >50% health

 

It could really use some major changes, as it's not really fulfilling its role either for power builds or condition builds at present.

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Well even if Final thrust becomes the new core burst, no reason for the Primal Flurry to not stay as is, considering how different the primals are sometimes compared to their counterparts, aka Skull Grinder and Scorching Earth, heck, arc divider being a multi-hit arcing slice. So even if a 1 hit thrust is the core burst, flaming flurry can still remain the primal upgrade. 

 

Now what would be on sword 3 for Zerker? I'd say something small and unique like sword 3 on Virtuoso. Instead of flurry, perhaps a 2 strike whirl similar to axe 2. Still similar to the actual skill but not quite. 

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On 8/31/2021 at 2:27 AM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Well even if Final thrust becomes the new core burst, no reason for the Primal Flurry to not stay as is, considering how different the primals are sometimes compared to their counterparts, aka Skull Grinder and Scorching Earth, heck, arc divider being a multi-hit arcing slice. So even if a 1 hit thrust is the core burst, flaming flurry can still remain the primal upgrade. 

 

Now what would be on sword 3 for Zerker? I'd say something small and unique like sword 3 on Virtuoso. Instead of flurry, perhaps a 2 strike whirl similar to axe 2. Still similar to the actual skill but not quite. 

I agree; the Primal burst would stay the same.  The changes suggested would only affect core sword skills.

 

As for Sword 3, I had proposed several variations of Galrath Slash:

1.) Mid-range damage (around what Cyclone Axe does) + 5s weakness

 

2.) Decrease proposed physical damage by about 20% (maybe a little bit higher than Final Thrust when target health >50%)

Applies weakness (4s) and 3 stacks of bleeding (6s)

 

3.)  decrease physical damage by about 20%

Applies weakness (4s) and 5 stacks of vulnerability (5s)

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I don't know your dps, but my tests on Lord of WvW I can achieve 14k of dmg with bleeding and 10k with burning, probably doing 25k-26k of dps. To check it I need to use the lab training of raiders. And need to found a proper rotation. Yet is less them a Condi Berserk, but that is right. Berserker is more offensive spec. I don't know if I can keep this dmg, probably a better PvE that has more knowledge about rotations.

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What really need is this: Disarm.

Could be even more dangerous as: if the opponent attack you and you use this skill the enemy would be disarmed, and its weapon would be launched on the ground far from him or he run to take it again or in 4s would be back to him. He would be disabled to use any weapon skill.

 

This should be basic of a Warrior as Master of Weapon.

Edited by Broxxgar.6801
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56 minutes ago, Broxxgar.6801 said:

What really need is this: Disarm.

Could be even more dangerous as: if the opponent attack you and you use this skill the enemy would be disarmed, and its weapon would be launched on the ground far from him or he run to take it again or in 4s would be back to him. He would be disabled to use any weapon skill.

 

This should be basic of a Warrior as Master of Weapon.

A disarm skill would be totally cool. Probably the most workable translation would be to have a base 1s daze that becomes 2s if a weapon skill is interrupted. That reward mechanic is a bit perverse, though. Also, where would such a skill fit, especially without making sword too much like spellbreaker dagger?

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That could be a utility skill or enabled after a succesful riposte, or after using the final thrust this could be enabled.

And is not a bit perverse, is the reality: who would dare  fight a master of weapon? A ranger?A Necro? A mesmer? They have to understand what is to be a master of weaponry, if they want to dance with dagger, swords, GS and other weapons in front of a warrior they should know they gonna be denied. They don't have the mastery on it, even using espec that given them access to other weapons.

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37 minutes ago, Acyk.9671 said:

MH sword is fine as is. It could be sightly improved but it's not a priority. There are so many things to rework already, i don't see the point of asking for viable weapons used in meta builds to get reworked.

 

OH Sword definitely need a rework. I would like to see pistol first though as i hope it will provide some new synergy.

I respectfully disagree.

 

1.) The only Warrior build that you could *maybe* argue is meta is Strength Spellbreaker (in competitive content, anyways).  And even that is so badly underperforming that it was completely absent from August's MAT in high level play (see youtube video below).  I do acknowledge that there are a few players, like Broxxgar, who are fond of their condi warrior builds and that they have had some individual success with them.  However, Core Condi War is definitely not meta in any game mode.  Condi berserker sees use in PvE, it is true (though mostly as a banner support, from what I'm told).  But to that point....

 

2.) MH sword is currently a niche weapon mostly useful for mobility.  Final thrust is, as noted in previous posts, only useful if the target is <50% health and is difficult to land.  Even for Condi Berserkers, the only real good skill is flaming flurry and savage leap for mobility.

 

You'll notice that, in the proposed changes, the mobility of the MH sword is maintained (even enhanced if you count the Core burst).  The AA chain is improved to allow better condi application.  Primal bursts are preserved, so Condi Berserker is still in business.  S3, Galrath slash, has had several versions suggested, some of which would further improve condi output and all of which would increase damage output.  

 

Thus, re-working MH sword would (hopefully) make Core Condi War a thing and would make Condi Berserker at least as good as it is now, but probably even better.  And would do so for all game modes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Acyk.9671 said:

 

I am not saying MH Sword shouldn't be improved, i'm saying it's not a priority because the weapon isn't bad and we have a ton of improvement and rework needed on Defense, OH sword, maces.

We won't get much if anything at all before EoD is released so i think we should prioritize our needs. That's where the disagreement comes from 🙂

 

Btw you forgot WvW where sword is meta for its utility (mobility + CC) on both dps spellbreaker and shoutbreaker.

 

Warrior's problem in PvP comes from more than the lack of condis on MH Sword and improving Maces for condi builds should be the priority imho.

We also do not know what pistol will offer. Maybe it's a condi weapon and it will synergies really well with swords.

I can respect that 🙂

And thanks for weighing in!

Edited by CalmTheStorm.2364
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