Jump to content
  • Sign Up

A discussion about flame thrower


seraph shay.6170

Recommended Posts

30 minutes ago, seraph shay.6170 said:

Do we need to have this? Is it considered fun to play against someone who is spamming the same "Flame Jet" ability a billion times? Idk seems too simple to me. 

Just as most engineer abilities, its spammy. Flamethrower 1, grenades 1, holo camps forge, and if you go anything else you spam elixer. You're either going full Beethoven, or pressing 1. 

  • Haha 1
  • Confused 2
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, seraph shay.6170 said:

Do we need to have this? Is it considered fun to play against someone who is spamming the same "Flame Jet" ability a billion times? Idk seems too simple to me. 

What exactly is it that you dislike about the weapon, it is actually a little more than just pressing 1 you know...

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, jwhite.7012 said:

Just as most engineer abilities, its spammy. Flamethrower 1, grenades 1, holo camps forge, and if you go anything else you spam elixer. You're either going full Beethoven, or pressing 1. 

I'm confused, are you saying the auto attacks are spammy? That's like, the point of auto attacks is it not? I mean hell, the whole game is spammy with it just being cool down based.

 

As for the Flamthrower Scrappers, they're insanely easy to kill so I don't really see the issue.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Huh, why delete this spec? It's glass cannon with very little sustain. 

 

And it's not just hitting 1-1-1-1-1-1-1. 

 

You have to CC from FT 3 and 5 and rifle 4 and also use combos for healing and etc. 

 

It's definitely not an overperformer and super ez to kill. It's somewhat ok in a team fight but all you have to do is target the FT engie. 

 

Prot and nades holo are a far far far far far far bigger threat 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

As for the Flamthrower Scrappers, they're insanely easy to kill so I don't really see the issue.

Oh, i'm not saying that they are hard to counter. Just that they are way too simplistic. Would like some middle ground, or other key abilities reworked. There was a streamer not too long ago that posted some videos of him cheesing maps like Skyhammer and Legacy, where he would just sit up top and spam 1 on grenades the entire match. Was hitting like 900k dmg each game lol.

Not saying grenades are op, they're just similar to ele though. If they aren't being targeted they can do nasty damage with practically no effort. 

Just want other abilities to have synergy and be worth taking. Unlike taking most of the toolkits for 1-2 useful abilities. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

8 hours ago, jwhite.7012 said:

Just as most engineer abilities, its spammy

 

9 minutes ago, jwhite.7012 said:

If they aren't being targeted they can do nasty damage with practically no effort. 

 

Out of curiosity, can you say what you mean by spammy? Also, can you explain how grenades are no effort?

 

I assume you mean in comparison to other classes/skills, since you specify Engineer/grenade kit.

 

Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, bethekey.8314 said:

Out of curiosity, can you say what you mean by spammy? Also, can you explain how grenades are no effort?

 

I assume you mean in comparison to other classes/skills, since you specify Engineer/grenade kit.

 

Thanks!

Unlike the mortar, grenades don't leave a lingering field. Spamming the other grenades and missing the GCD makes spamming the other grenades off CD less enticing. Spamming the first grenade, however, does more damage than an auto attack (and also gains multiple traits that factor in to its use) and has an AoE so you're still better off throwing grenades rather than autoing with a pistol or rifle. Assuming you take vipers and are trying to get condi benefit of grenades- with the exception of the poison grenade, you're probably still better off spamming the first grenade to proc Incendiary Powder and Shrapnel. Assuming your target is moving, you're extremely unlikely to land freeze grenade (velocity still too slow even with trait, and most players run snap targeting), that leaves the shrapnel grenade. Has higher base damage than the first grenade, but hits fewer targets. So in 1v1, sure it's better. In group setting, you're still better off spamming 1 on grenade kit over the rest. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, jwhite.7012 said:

Unlike the mortar, grenades don't leave a lingering field. Spamming the other grenades and missing the GCD makes spamming the other grenades off CD less enticing. Spamming the first grenade, however, does more damage than an auto attack (and also gains multiple traits that factor in to its use) and has an AoE so you're still better off throwing grenades rather than autoing with a pistol or rifle. Assuming you take vipers and are trying to get condi benefit of grenades- with the exception of the poison grenade, you're probably still better off spamming the first grenade to proc Incendiary Powder and Shrapnel. Assuming your target is moving, you're extremely unlikely to land freeze grenade (velocity still too slow even with trait, and most players run snap targeting), that leaves the shrapnel grenade. Has higher base damage than the first grenade, but hits fewer targets. So in 1v1, sure it's better. In group setting, you're still better off spamming 1 on grenade kit over the rest. 

 

I didn't ask why people use grenade 1 over other grenade skills. Personally, I use all of the grenade kit skills when I play it.

 

I asked what you mean by spammy and that grenade kit is low effort, relative to other classes/skills.

 

To be clear, you said most engineer abilities are spammy (not just grenades).

Edited by bethekey.8314
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, bethekey.8314 said:

 

I didn't ask why people use grenade 1 over other grenade skills. I asked what you mean by spammy and that grenade kit is low effort, relative to other classes/skills.

As a warrior, you utilize your entire utility set. Mesmer also has a decent size rotation. Ele, who I main, has a large (nearly, but not quite) piano style play- not just spamming one ability. Guardian doesn't have one sole ability they rely on. Ranger, with probably the better of most auto's doesn't even have to camp their primary attack. Throw on grenades, however, and you can stand afar and spam 1. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, jwhite.7012 said:

As a warrior, you utilize your entire utility set. Mesmer also has a decent size rotation. Ele, who I main, has a large (nearly, but not quite) piano style play- not just spamming one ability. Guardian doesn't have one sole ability they rely on. Ranger, with probably the better of most auto's doesn't even have to camp their primary attack. Throw on grenades, however, and you can stand afar and spam 1. 

 

This is incredibly ignorant and shows no understanding of good engineer play. All classes use most/all of their build when played well. If you don't, you're playing poorly and/or your build is bad.

 

Perhaps you are talking about # of skills needed to achieve some minimal threshold of success on each class. Then I could see grenades and flamethrower being up there.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

 

This is incredibly ignorant and shows no understanding of good engineer play. All classes use most/all of their build when played well. If you don't, you're playing poorly and/or your build is bad.

 

Perhaps you are talking about # of skills needed to achieve some minimal threshold of success on each class. Then I could see grenades and flamethrower being up there.

we're not talking about "good play" we're talking about being able to rely on a sole ability. I didn't specify in PvE or PvP, but in situations like low level pvp, or openworld pve, you can literally just walk around and nade everything. Do not be condescending or rude simply because you do not agree? Similar to a thief standing off point and clustering a cap, or a nade engi spamming nades doesn't change the fact that its a low effort with pretty decent reward. Nade is basically an auto with a large AoE capability- where as a thief at least has to rely on initiative to achieve its performance. 

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, jwhite.7012 said:

Oh, i'm not saying that they are hard to counter. Just that they are way too simplistic. Would like some middle ground, or other key abilities reworked. There was a streamer not too long ago that posted some videos of him cheesing maps like Skyhammer and Legacy, where he would just sit up top and spam 1 on grenades the entire match. Was hitting like 900k dmg each game lol.

Not saying grenades are op, they're just similar to ele though. If they aren't being targeted they can do nasty damage with practically no effort. 

Just want other abilities to have synergy and be worth taking. Unlike taking most of the toolkits for 1-2 useful abilities. 

Well though the damage may be simplistic, staying alive on those builds isn't, and I think that is a sufficient trade off. We shouldn't nerf a build just cause the enemy team gets tunnel vision.

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/29/2021 at 1:37 AM, bethekey.8314 said:

 

I didn't ask why people use grenade 1 over other grenade skills. Personally, I use all of the grenade kit skills when I play it.

 

I asked what you mean by spammy and that grenade kit is low effort, relative to other classes/skills.

 

To be clear, you said most engineer abilities are spammy (not just grenades).

Low effort because AoE target lock exists. Nades do a lot of damage and the targeting requirement is eliminated by being able to auto lock like they're a bow or Rifle. 

 

Spammy because the former point makes just using the auto attack far too rewarding when there's no effort involved. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

Low effort because AoE target lock exists. Nades do a lot of damage and the targeting requirement is eliminated by being able to auto lock like they're a bow or Rifle. 

 

Spammy because the former point makes just using the auto attack far too rewarding when there's no effort involved. 

 

This will be my last post in the thread because I think I'm bringing it off topic.

 

Snap to target only works well at close range, where there's hardly any difference between melee and ranged. Grenades have travel time and random spread that requires leading your target. If you use snap to target, knowledgeable/ experienced players can easily strafe dodge your grenades at range. It also has to be actively shut off when using elixirs/beneficial AoE. I'd venture to say most good players don't use snap to target. 

 

As such, I'd argue that grenade kit is one of the most mechanically intensive skills in the game. Not many skills require aim, leading, about face usage, and snap to target toggling (if you use it). Not "low effort" at all compared to the largely auto-targeting and/or instant hitting (post-cast) skillset in this game.

 

Spammy? Maybe, like most auto attacks. Engineer has some of the worst auto attacks in the game (see pistol, rifle) and flamethrower/grenades help make up for that at the cost of a utility slot. It's funny to me that after literally every other skill on grenade kit was nerfed, people now complain about the auto attacks. People won't sleep until the easily countered projectile, random spread, travel time, skillshot, blind bugged, traited kit with 3/5 skills doing zero damage has 5/5 skills doing zero damage.

 

I'll spell it out. It's not that Anet missed nerfing yet another aspect of grenade kit. If you're still having trouble against grenades, the problem is you. 

 

Last note on topic: Flamethrower stability application and auto power damage is kinda dumb. Nerf it to less application, longer duration, slightly less power damage on the auto. Buff other aspects of it.

Edited by bethekey.8314
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

 

This will be my last post in the thread because I think I'm bringing it off topic.

 

Snap to target only works well at close range, where there's hardly any difference between melee and ranged. Grenades have travel time and random spread that requires leading your target. If you use snap to target, knowledgeable/ experienced players can easily strafe dodge your grenades at range. It also has to be actively shut off when using elixirs/beneficial AoE. I'd venture to say most good players don't use snap to target. 

 

As such, I'd argue that grenade kit is one of the most mechanically intensive skills in the game. Not many skills require aim, leading, about face usage, and snap to target toggling (if you use it). Not "low effort" at all compared to the largely auto-targeting and/or instant hitting (post-cast) skillset in this game.

 

Spammy? Maybe, like most auto attacks. Engineer has some of the worst auto attacks in the game (see pistol, rifle) and flamethrower/grenades help make up for that at the cost of a utility slot. It's funny to me that after literally every other skill on grenade kit was nerfed, people now complain about the auto attacks. People won't sleep until the easily countered projectile, random spread, travel time, skillshot, blind bugged, traited kit with 3/5 skills doing zero damage has 5/5 skills doing zero damage.

 

I'll spell it out. It's not that Anet missed nerfing yet another aspect of grenade kit. If you're still having trouble against grenades, the problem is you. 

 

Last note on topic: Flamethrower stability application and auto power damage is kinda dumb. Nerf it to less application, longer duration, slightly less power damage on the auto. Buff other aspects of it.

Travel time is almost entirely mitigated by Grenadier increasing velocity besides at the max ranges, which is also where spread is a legitimate issue. Within the 500-600 unit ranges or less,, these issues are negligible. Snap target, especially at closer ranges, makes nades effortless to use and are not strafed. You simply detarget to use beneficial AoEs and Elixirs. 

 

If nades were so easily countered, then Nade Holo wouldn't have been such a menace for so long; don't sell this stuff short. I'm not saying nades are a problem, I'm just explaining why they are in fact very low effort and spammy. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

Travel time is almost entirely mitigated by Grenadier increasing velocity besides at the max ranges, which is also where spread is a legitimate issue. Within the 500-600 unit ranges or less,, these issues are negligible. Snap target, especially at closer ranges, makes nades effortless to use and are not strafed. You simply detarget to use beneficial AoEs and Elixirs. 

 

If nades were so easily countered, then Nade Holo wouldn't have been such a menace for so long; don't sell this stuff short. I'm not saying nades are a problem, I'm just explaining why they are in fact very low effort and spammy. 

 

Have you tried that recently? This all sounds great on paper, but have you tried actually landing nades with snap target against anyone with hands? Especially if said target has swiftness/superspeed/dashes?

 

Also why are we bringing up pre-nerf grenade kit?

 

People really think engi is chrono. When we spawn in we activate Signet of Balance Patch™ and revert 1.5 years of nerfs. 

 

Let me point out that this is an auto that we have to:

 

1. trait to make consistent

2.  Aim versus anyone with hands

3. Give up a utility slot for

4. Pray we don't randomly miss  2/3 of the damage at max range due to rng spread. 

 

What exactly should the upside of grenades be compared to other auto attacks? Should we have to jump through all of these hoops just to hit as hard as a ranger LB auto?


People really won't stop complaining until this build is a free 5 pts. 

 

 

 

Edited by Kuma.1503
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

 

Have you tried that recently? This all sounds great on paper, but have you tried actually landing nades with snap target against anyone with hands? Especially if said target has swiftness/superspeed/dashes?

 

Also why are we bringing up pre-nerf grenade kit?

 

People really think engi is chrono. When we spawn in we activate Signet of Balance Patch™ and revert 1.5 years of nerfs. 

 

Let me point out that this is an auto that we have to:

 

1. trait to make consistent

2.  Aim versus anyone with hands

3. Give up a utility slot for

4. Pray we don't randomly miss  2/3 of the damage at max range due to rng spread. 

 

What exactly should the upside of grenades be compared to other auto attacks? Should we have to jump through all of these hoops just to hit as hard as a ranger LB auto?


People really won't stop complaining until this build is a free 5 pts. 

 

 

 

Yes, and dashes or superspeed should avoid things because they're some of the highest forms of mobility. If nades could still consistently hit people using such things, then it'd be laughable. Swiftness? Yeah nades don't care unless you're at max ranges. 

 

Don't even start with traits, we'd be here forever complaining about classes locked into *Insert Trait Here*. 

 

Snap target makes nades effortless and rather braindead, stop trying to drum up a pity party like they're difficult to use when this mechanic exists. 

You have to give up **ONE** utility slot for **FIVE** extra weapon slots and have no CD between them like ele does. Stop exaggerating what kind of trade off this is. 

 

Missed some of your damage at max range? Throw another and close the distance, or use a dedicated range skill that isn't an AoE auto attack that hits 5 targets. 

 

I never made any claims about nades being busted in their current state, I'm just sick of Engi players acting like they're dealing with unfinished or incredibly poorly functioning tools. Nades are very spammy and low effort. 

Edited by CutesySylveon.8290
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

 stop trying to drum up a pity party

 

The irony in this statement is so thick you could cut it with a knife. 

 

To reiterate. Auto attacks are spammy. Auto attacks are low effort. We should change auto attacks so that they require skill. 

 

So to that end, we should nerf the auto attack that takes the most amount of skill/effort to land against decent players. 

 

Snap ground target is nothing more than a crutch that allows it to function like all other auto attacks in the game. And it comes with inconsistentency issues even at the best of times. Lets not pretend that "whiffing at max range" is something inconsiquential. 

 

If you judge that by the standard of other auto attacks that auto-track naturally, I'd say that's a notable downside. Imagine if ranger longbow autos randomly flew to the side and missed at above 900 range.

 

(I am sorry Scepeter guardians, hopefully your weapon gets a tune up soon.)

 

This is also effectly our weapon swap, so that is why it has 5 skills. This is why base engineer was designed with 1 weapon swap and the lowest amount of weapon variety in the game. 

 

Yes, we do get to have 5 skills on a utility skill, but lets not pretend that any of this comes without downsides. 

 

For the sake of fairness, I will also point out that in addition to being AoE grenades can be tossed behind you. It's not all doom and gloom, grenades have their upsides compared to other weapons as well. 

 

This is not a engineer "pity party" as you put it. This is engineer players having to explain our classes trade-offs for the umpteenth time to people who either don't understand them, or willingly ignore them. 

 

 

 

Edited by Kuma.1503
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/28/2021 at 10:50 PM, seraph shay.6170 said:

Do we need to have this? Is it considered fun to play against someone who is spamming the same "Flame Jet" ability a billion times? Idk seems too simple to me. 

Yes. Personally i like it and also its one of the reasons why i like the game because i have an option to play either a piano build with tons of buttons or Flamethrower build that i can just go ham be a pyro and burn everything on sight with few buttons.

 

Also there is other people too that like FT build for many reasons for instance its really easy on hands without needing to have carpal tunnel problem after even a short gaming session.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...