Revitalizing Warrior 2: Re-working the MACE

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Mace is sadly underused and needs some major re-works to make it viable again.  And before anyone says, “put damage back on CC!”, I think it’s fair to say ANet is unlikely to reverse course on such a sweeping change to their philosophy.  So let’s entertain how mace might be improved WITHOUT requiring CC to do heavy damage again.

 

Now for the controversial part: my suggestions for a Mace re-work reimagines it as a hybrid/condi weapon.  I think this conveniently serves two needs: 1) making Mace more viable in all forms of content, and 2) improving the viability of condi variants of Core War, Berserker, and SpB.  One of the main obstacles to pulling off any version of a Condi War is lack of hybrid and/or condi weapons to utilize and underperformance of the weapons that we do have.  Sword is sub-optimal; I have offered suggestions for its improvement in the first thread in this series.  Longbow is OK but could still use some tweaks to be truly excellent.  Condi berserker can make use of Mace only for its burst skill (which is a good one, to be sure); there are no other mace skills to complement it.  I propose to improve the aforementioned shortcomings with the changes to mace outlined below.

 

I do again want to thank all the other authors who have submitted suggestions on the forums (and particularly the Omnibus) on this topic previously.  Your ideas have often inspired my own.

 

F1 Skull Crack: Same skill but add a 300-range leap.  It’s been proposed before; it was a good idea then, and it still is.

 

AA chain:  I would like to point out that Mace is, in fact, a one-handed weapon that attacks slower than a 2-handed hammer.  W.T.F.  So here are the changes:

-each attack retains the same physical damage that it currently has

-1^st attack: activation time reduced to 1/4s.  Inflicts 2 stacks of vulnerability for 5s

-2^nd attack: activation time stays 1/2s.  Inflicts weakness for 3s

-3^rd attack: activation time stays 3/4s.  Inflicts 3 stacks of confusion for 3s

 

Mace 2: Crushing Blow :  Same physical damage as it currently has.  Now inflicts 5 stacks of vulnerability (5s) and 3 stacks of bleeding (6s).  Condition stacks are doubled (i.e., 10 vuln and 6 bleed) if it hits a disabled foe (stun, daze, knockdown, launch, etc).  

Activation time 3/4s;  CD reduced to 6s.

Targets: 3

 

Mace 3: Counterblow:  Combining current counterblow and pommel bash.  Block for 2.5s until attacked in melee range (note: this block would work like Riposte works now; i.e., keeps blocking projectiles until one is blocked in melee range).  If blocking in melee range, counter with a pommel bash that dazes the target (1s).  Gain adrenaline if you do not block melee attack (same as it currently is).

Damage: same as pommel bash.

CD 15s

Targets: 1

 

Mace 4: Tormenting Smash [New Skill]:  Smash your mace on the ground, unleashing a powerful blast of debris that damages and conditions foes around you.

Damage: Same as crushing blow

Inflicts cripple (3s) and 3 stacks of torment (6s).  Conditions doubled (i.e., 6s of cripple and 6 stacks of torment for 6s) if it hits a disabled foe.

Activation time: 3/4s.  CD 15s

Targets: 5

Range: 240 radius

 

Mace 5:  Tremor:  Leap to the target area (ground-targeted skill) and slam your mace on the ground, releasing a powerful tremor that launches and weakens foes around you.

Damage: It’s a CC.  Who cares.

Activation time: 3/4s.  CD 25s

Targets: 5

Range of leap: 600

Range of tremor: 240 (360 degrees like Earthshaker)

Launch distance: 0 (like ranger’s Spike Trap)

Inflicts Weakness (5s)

 

Sundering Mace (Defense Trait):

Mace skills have 20% reduced recharge

Mace CCs last 20% longer and inflict 3 stacks confusion for 3s

 

Discussion:

My goal here is to create a true hybrid weapon that can be used for either power or condi builds.  Note that the physical damage output is increased: slightly faster AA chain, Crushing blow on short CD as Mace 2, and a big AOE blast on Tormenting smash.  The skills also apply a variety of non-damaging conditions (cripple and weakness and vuln) that would be useful even for a pure power build.  Yet there are still multiple ways to apply bleeding, torment, and confusion (especially when Sundering Mace is traited).  The multiple ways of applying weakness offers synergy with Cull the Weak.

 

Note, too, that Mace retains the same number of CCs that it currently has (although the launch on the new Tremor would do a little less damage to defiance bars than Tremor currently does).   It also retains its block—and actually improves upon it by making it block projectiles for the entire duration until attacked in melee range. 

 

While Mace would be capable of inflicting large amounts of conditions in a short time (6 bleeds via crushing blow and 6 stacks of torment from tormenting smash), the target needs to be CC’d for that to happen.  Moreover, the 3/4s cast time on both skills means there will be plenty of opportunity to dodge or block.  This is compensated for by the relatively short CD on both skills; the skills are hard to land, but you get to try to land them more often.

 

The AOE on Tormenting Smash gives Mace some much needed cleave and team fight potential.  The new Tremor sets up Tormenting Smash and offers further value in a team fight.  The ground-targeted leap of Tremor should make it easier to land, provides some mobility/gap-closing potential, and avoids all the weirdness of the slow-moving projectile-thing.

 

Animations:

Most animations remain the same; only tormenting smash and tremor would need new ones.  Tremor could easily share Earthshaker’s animation.  Tormenting smash could be the current downward strike of tremor and the shockwave component of Stomp.

 

Looking forward to the discussion!

[Grand Marshal.4098]

The ideas on the skills can be anything, so long someone is creative enough to think about them. Coefficients too. What I want to touch upon more is confusion. 

 

Good idea to put some confusion in Mace. I'd love to see it in a trait too, like the old confusion on cc. 

 

So we need more confusion outside Skull Grinder yes. But I think that the Mace trait is not the place for it. My suggestion (as in the reworked defense ideas we had discussed in the Omnibus) is to have the Mace trait lessen the CD of Mace skills and increase all outgoing CC duration by 15% for any CC and 30% for Maces only. A multi-purposed weapon trait for excellent synergy with all warrior CCs (that no longer do dmg) and traits like current merciless hammer (not going into Strength rework shenanigans for this one). 

 

As for confusion, I'd prefer to see is as part of Cull the Weak. Inflict weakness on foes below 50% health and apply confusion to weakened foes (3 stacks for 3 seconds like your trait) with a 4 or 5 sec ICD. When on core you will be able to have some serious confusion application with cull the weak and/or body blow. Which is why it would need an ICD on its own. Zerker will have more uptime of confusion but that's not rly a big buff imo and Spellbreaker can capitalize on a damaging condition that's not bleeding. 

 

If anything I'd argue to add confusion and 3 or 2 condi transfer on revenge counter, but that needs its own balancing and I'm getting off topic here. I'd love to see some condi on OH Mace tho so I'm up for it, especially now that I have been extensively experimenting with the concept of condition warrior. 

 

Wouldn't mind seeing a blind condi in core Mace as well to complement Longbow 4 on core warrior, as we severely lack blinds as well... 

 

The others will probably do some suggestions on conditions, coefficients and cooldowns. I just wanted to touch upon the traits. 

 

 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

On 8/31/2021 at 2:40 AM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

My suggestion (as in the reworked defense ideas we had discussed in the Omnibus) is to have the Mace trait lessen the CD of Mace skills and increase all outgoing CC duration by 15% for any CC and 30% for Maces only. A multi-purposed weapon trait for excellent synergy with all warrior CCs (that no longer do dmg) and traits like current merciless hammer (not going into Strength rework shenanigans for this one). 

I think that could be a good alternative.

 

I'm not as sold on putting confusion on Cull the Weak, though, mostly because there doesn't seem to be an obvious connection to being weakened and being confused.  There is a connection between being konked on the head with a mace and being confused, though.  

 

A compromise position might be to have Sundering Mace provide:

-20% reduced recharge to mace skills

-All CC's last 20% longer

-Mace CCs apply confusion (3 stacks for 3s)

 

Alternatively, you could do: 

-20% reduced recharge to mace skills

-Mace CC's last 20% longer

-All CCs apply confusion (3 stacks for 3s)

 

Personally, I think the last option is probably most balanced.  What do you think?

[Grand Marshal.4098]

36 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I think that could be a good alternative.

 

I'm not as sold on putting confusion on Cull the Weak, though, mostly because there doesn't seem to be an obvious connection to being weakened and being confused.  There is a connection between being konked on the head with a mace and being confused, though.  

 

A compromise position might be to have Sundering Mace provide:

-20% reduced recharge to mace skills

-All CC's last 20% longer

-Mace CCs apply confusion (3 stacks for 3s)

 

Alternatively, you could do: 

-20% reduced recharge to mace skills

-Mace CC's last 20% longer

-All CCs apply confusion (3 stacks for 3s)

 

Personally, I think the last option is probably most balanced.  What do you think?

I think I can get behind the last trait. It is in all forms, a superior alternative to the old confusion on cc trait in strength that got removed. Lan told me around that time it was a very iffy implementation, so if anything this trait giving more benefits would make it a decent choice for power, support and condi builds. 

 

I would love to see an increase to outgoing cc duration somewhere though tbh.. Before when cc could crit I'd say no. Now that it's 0 dmg I'd say yes. Unless they convert body blow to power dmg on cc that cannot crit, but that's effectively 1 down the condi traits, unless arms gets reworked yadda yadda.. 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Man... going through the Warrior's threads u guys have a crazy passion for this class, it's unfortunate anet seems to fail to take notice.

Sry I kno this post added little to the thread.

[Vancho.8750]

2 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Man... going through the Warrior's threads u guys have a crazy passion for this class, it's unfortunate anet seems to fail to take notice.

Sry I kno this post added little to the thread.

They noticed and copied Willbender from the Omnibus, maybe that is why it is as clunky as warrior. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Man... going through the Warrior's threads u guys have a crazy passion for this class, it's unfortunate anet seems to fail to take notice.

Sry I kno this post added little to the thread.

We burn with fiery passion.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Just now, Vancho.8750 said:

They noticed and copied Willbender from the Omnibus, maybe that is why it is as clunky as warrior. 

Lol maybe

[Psycoprophet.8107]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

We burn with fiery passion.

I see what u did there haha.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

They noticed and copied Willbender from the Omnibus, maybe that is why it is as clunky as warrior. 

Oh that did not go unnoticed believe you me. Means they've read it though.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I would love to see an increase to outgoing cc duration somewhere though tbh.. Before when cc could crit I'd say no. Now that it's 0 dmg I'd say yes. Unless they convert body blow to power dmg on cc that cannot crit, but that's effectively 1 down the condi traits, unless arms gets reworked yadda yadda.. 

I agree that could be really nice.  What I'm worried about, though, is that it will end up getting Bull's Charge and other skills nerfed because now the CC lasts too long.  Definitely don't want that.  Having SOME CC have prolonged duration (e.g., Mace's CC only) is probably a reasonable option.  Plus, it is absolutely no fun to play against someone who can straight up inactivate your character for 3+ seconds at at time.  And while I definitely want Warrior to be a beast to be feared on the battlefield, I don't want us to turn into a condi/trap ranger that just annoys its opponents to death with ceaseless CC (immob and spike traps, in their case).  My hope with these suggestions is to maintain Mace's strong roles in both defense and CC but also provide some options for more dynamic play.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Alright, I finally had a chance to look through it all and here is my commentary:

On 8/31/2021 at 2:01 AM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Mace is sadly underused and needs some major re-works to make it viable again.  And before anyone says, “put damage back on CC!”, I think it’s fair to say ANet is unlikely to reverse course on such a sweeping change to their philosophy.  So let’s entertain how mace might be improved WITHOUT requiring CC to do heavy damage again.

I fear you are right, and with the rest of your changes then I'd say give more bleed stacks on Body Blow (like 2-3 total, same duration).

On 8/31/2021 at 2:01 AM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Now for the controversial part: my suggestions for a Mace re-work reimagines it as a hybrid/condi weapon.  I think this conveniently serves two needs: 1) making Mace more viable in all forms of content, and 2) improving the viability of condi variants of Core War, Berserker, and SpB.  One of the main obstacles to pulling off any version of a Condi War is lack of hybrid and/or condi weapons to utilize and underperformance of the weapons that we do have.  Sword is sub-optimal; I have offered suggestions for its improvement in the first thread in this series.  Longbow is OK but could still use some tweaks to be truly excellent.  Condi berserker can make use of Mace only for its burst skill (which is a good one, to be sure); there are no other mace skills to complement it.  I propose to improve the aforementioned shortcomings with the changes to mace outlined below.

I don't think this is all that controversial. Since the beginning of the game warrior has indeed tied condi on to CC somehow, just never effectively. It can be done effectively if Anet wants to do that. Changing Body Blow to be 2-3 stacks of bleed would be in that direction.

On 8/31/2021 at 2:01 AM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I do again want to thank all the other authors who have submitted suggestions on the forums (and particularly the Omnibus) on this topic previously.  Your ideas have often inspired my own.

Kind of bittersweet seeing the Omnibus mentioned at this point. From how Willbender was made it is obvious that they read it, but Anet hasn't applied any of it to warrior sadly.

On 8/31/2021 at 2:01 AM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

F1 Skull Crack: Same skill but add a 300-range leap.  It’s been proposed before; it was a good idea then, and it still is.

 

AA chain:  I would like to point out that Mace is, in fact, a one-handed weapon that attacks slower than a 2-handed hammer.  W.T.F.  So here are the changes:

Hammer is about 2.72s (got 3.67 chains in 10s), Mace I got 4 chains in 12s, so ~3s with aftercasts. And it USED to be slower! 

On 8/31/2021 at 2:01 AM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

-each attack retains the same physical damage that it currently has

-1^st attack: activation time reduced to 1/4s.  Inflicts 2 stacks of vulnerability for 5s

-2^nd attack: activation time stays 1/2s.  Inflicts weakness for 3s

-3^rd attack: activation time stays 3/4s.  Inflicts 3 stacks of confusion for 3s

The power damage hits almost like a condi weapon already so why not.
My take on your proposal though is that it will not speed up the chain a whole lot, that and 3 stacks of confusion is a lot for an AA chain.

Try this:

Mace Smash: 0.25s activation 1 stack of vulnerability 5s (two unconditional stacks is high for an AA chain)

Mace Bash: 0.25s activation 3s of weakness (so faster than yours)

Pulverize: 1/2s activation. 1 stack of confusion for 3s, 2 stacks for 5s if the target is CC'd
So a faster chain, with roughly the same amount of confusion over time, but manageable to play against.  

On 8/31/2021 at 2:01 AM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Mace 2: Crushing Blow :  Same physical damage as it currently has.  Now inflicts 5 stacks of vulnerability (5s) and 3 stacks of bleeding (6s).  Condition stacks are doubled (i.e., 10 vuln and 6 bleed) if it hits a disabled foe (stun, daze, knockdown, launch, etc).  

Activation time 3/4s;  CD reduced to 6s.

Targets: 3

Looks fine to me as a condi burst dps skill.

On 8/31/2021 at 2:01 AM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Mace 3: Counterblow:  Combining current counterblow and pommel bash.  Block for 2.5s until attacked in melee range (note: this block would work like Riposte works now; i.e., keeps blocking projectiles until one is blocked in melee range).  If blocking in melee range, counter with a pommel bash that dazes the target (1s).  Gain adrenaline if you do not block melee attack (same as it currently is).

Damage: same as pommel bash.

CD 15s

Targets: 1

looks like a fine change to me.

On 8/31/2021 at 2:01 AM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Mace 4: Tormenting Smash [New Skill]:  Smash your mace on the ground, unleashing a powerful blast of debris that damages and conditions foes around you.

Damage: Same as crushing blow

Inflicts cripple (3s) and 3 stacks of torment (6s).  Conditions doubled (i.e., 6s of cripple and 6 stacks of torment for 6s) if it hits a disabled foe.

Activation time: 3/4s.  CD 15s

Targets: 5

Range: 240 radius

 I think the theme of double condi stacks when hitting a CC'd foe is great, gives it depth and obvious counterplay to keep it from  being OP.

On 8/31/2021 at 2:01 AM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Mace 5:  Tremor:  Leap to the target area (ground-targeted skill) and slam your mace on the ground, releasing a powerful tremor that launches and weakens foes around you.

Damage: It’s a CC.  Who cares.

Activation time: 3/4s.  CD 25s

Targets: 5

Range of leap: 600

Range of tremor: 240 (360 degrees like Earthshaker)

Launch distance: 0 (like ranger’s Spike Trap)

Inflicts Weakness (5s)

Damage should at least be the same as it is now with both strikes connecting in PvE FWIW in order to not lower it's potential in PvE. Also, as far as PvE goes this would be 232 breakbar damage versus the 300 from the 3s knockdown. There is no need to nerf the defiance bar damage of mace. I know this is geared towards competitive play, but you also have to take into account the PvE side  of the house with changes like this. The place for Launch is on Staggering Blow on Hammer, not Mace.

The rest of your proposed skill is fine. I would however keep the CC to the 3s knockdown.

On 8/31/2021 at 2:01 AM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Sundering Mace (Defense Trait):

Mace skills have 20% reduced recharge

Mace CCs last 20% longer and inflict 3 stacks confusion for 3s

So we had 3 stacks of confusion for 3s on hitting with a CC of any sort back at launch and do you remember how that played out? I always found it too weak.

The way that weapon traits are going, the better ones have an effect when not using the weapon. That is what needs to happen to Sundering Mace.

Might I propose this:

Your CC's have 15% increased duration

50% chance when critically hitting a target to inflict 1 stack of confusion for 5s/3s (PvE/Comp)

These effects are doubled if you are wielding a mace.

This gives you a benefit to having an OH mace or MH mace. You can Stun with F1, then use Axe 5 to put 15 stacks of condi on someone. Fair for a Mesmer to do it, and this would have counterplay to it (stunbreak to avoid the confusion).

 

On 8/31/2021 at 2:01 AM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Discussion:

My goal here is to create a true hybrid weapon that can be used for either power or condi builds.  Note that the physical damage output is increased: slightly faster AA chain, Crushing blow on short CD as Mace 2, and a big AOE blast on Tormenting smash.  The skills also apply a variety of non-damaging conditions (cripple and weakness and vuln) that would be useful even for a pure power build.  Yet there are still multiple ways to apply bleeding, torment, and confusion (especially when Sundering Mace is traited).  The multiple ways of applying weakness offers synergy with Cull the Weak.

 

Note, too, that Mace retains the same number of CCs that it currently has (although the launch on the new Tremor would do a little less damage to defiance bars than Tremor currently does).   It also retains its block—and actually improves upon it by making it block projectiles for the entire duration until attacked in melee range. 

 

While Mace would be capable of inflicting large amounts of conditions in a short time (6 bleeds via crushing blow and 6 stacks of torment from tormenting smash), the target needs to be CC’d for that to happen.  Moreover, the 3/4s cast time on both skills means there will be plenty of opportunity to dodge or block.  This is compensated for by the relatively short CD on both skills; the skills are hard to land, but you get to try to land them more often.

 

The AOE on Tormenting Smash gives Mace some much needed cleave and team fight potential.  The new Tremor sets up Tormenting Smash and offers further value in a team fight.  The ground-targeted leap of Tremor should make it easier to land, provides some mobility/gap-closing potential, and avoids all the weirdness of the slow-moving projectile-thing.

 

Animations:

Most animations remain the same; only tormenting smash and tremor would need new ones.  Tremor could easily share Earthshaker’s animation.  Tormenting smash could be the current downward strike of tremor and the shockwave component of Stomp.

 

Looking forward to the discussion!

So you have my 2cp now. I like it all overall with a few exceptions.

The chain needs to be faster than you recommended, with it's condis scaled down.

The launch on Tremor needs to remain a 3s Knockdown.

Sundering Mace needs a mace/non mace split. Giving longer CCs when other weapons are equipped helps out things like Bulls Charge on GS, or Headbutt with Decap spam. Finally, instead of Confusion on CC inflicting Confusion when hitting a CC'd foe opens up a large amount of synergy across all the weapon sets,  which would be better for warrior overall.

[RiyazGuerra.9203]

As the first weapon my charr warr used, mace has a special place in my heart.  I am going to post some ideas later tonight.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

On 9/1/2021 at 5:43 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Alright, I finally had a chance to look through it all and here is my commentary:

I fear you are right, and with the rest of your changes then I'd say give more bleed stacks on Body Blow (like 2-3 total, same duration).

I don't think this is all that controversial. Since the beginning of the game warrior has indeed tied condi on to CC somehow, just never effectively. It can be done effectively if Anet wants to do that. Changing Body Blow to be 2-3 stacks of bleed would be in that direction.

Kind of bittersweet seeing the Omnibus mentioned at this point. From how Willbender was made it is obvious that they read it, but Anet hasn't applied any of it to warrior sadly.

Hammer is about 2.72s (got 3.67 chains in 10s), Mace I got 4 chains in 12s, so ~3s with aftercasts. And it USED to be slower! 

The power damage hits almost like a condi weapon already so why not.
My take on your proposal though is that it will not speed up the chain a whole lot, that and 3 stacks of confusion is a lot for an AA chain.

Try this:

Mace Smash: 0.25s activation 1 stack of vulnerability 5s (two unconditional stacks is high for an AA chain)

Mace Bash: 0.25s activation 3s of weakness (so faster than yours)

Pulverize: 1/2s activation. 1 stack of confusion for 3s, 2 stacks for 5s if the target is CC'd
So a faster chain, with roughly the same amount of confusion over time, but manageable to play against.  

Looks fine to me as a condi burst dps skill.

looks like a fine change to me.

 I think the theme of double condi stacks when hitting a CC'd foe is great, gives it depth and obvious counterplay to keep it from  being OP.

Damage should at least be the same as it is now with both strikes connecting in PvE FWIW in order to not lower it's potential in PvE. Also, as far as PvE goes this would be 232 breakbar damage versus the 300 from the 3s knockdown. There is no need to nerf the defiance bar damage of mace. I know this is geared towards competitive play, but you also have to take into account the PvE side  of the house with changes like this. The place for Launch is on Staggering Blow on Hammer, not Mace.

The rest of your proposed skill is fine. I would however keep the CC to the 3s knockdown.

So we had 3 stacks of confusion for 3s on hitting with a CC of any sort back at launch and do you remember how that played out? I always found it too weak.

The way that weapon traits are going, the better ones have an effect when not using the weapon. That is what needs to happen to Sundering Mace.

Might I propose this:

Your CC's have 15% increased duration

50% chance when critically hitting a target to inflict 1 stack of confusion for 5s/3s (PvE/Comp)

These effects are doubled if you are wielding a mace.

This gives you a benefit to having an OH mace or MH mace. You can Stun with F1, then use Axe 5 to put 15 stacks of condi on someone. Fair for a Mesmer to do it, and this would have counterplay to it (stunbreak to avoid the confusion).

 

So you have my 2cp now. I like it all overall with a few exceptions.

The chain needs to be faster than you recommended, with it's condis scaled down.

The launch on Tremor needs to remain a 3s Knockdown.

Sundering Mace needs a mace/non mace split. Giving longer CCs when other weapons are equipped helps out things like Bulls Charge on GS, or Headbutt with Decap spam. Finally, instead of Confusion on CC inflicting Confusion when hitting a CC'd foe opens up a large amount of synergy across all the weapon sets,  which would be better for warrior overall.

Thanks, @Lan Deathrider.5910!  I always appreciate the time and thought you put into your commentary.  It's very helpful.

 

Also, I'm sorry that the Omnibus' suggestions were co-opted like they were...that's a big gut-punch to you and all the other contributors.  You guys deserve better.

 

To your suggestions:

RE: the AA chain--I love it.  Great idea!  Let's do that instead.

 

RE: Tremor:

I had thought about the difference to the breakbar, too, but I was worried that a 3s knockdown would be too much for competitive play (after all, Earthshaker, on which Tremor 2.0 is based, has a max stun of 2s).  That, and I like launching my opponents to flop on the ground like a fish.  But you're right; we don't want to reduce Mace's effectiveness in PvE.  So a better option might be a competitive split: 3s knockdown in PvE and 2s in PvP/WvW.  

 

RE: Sundering Mace:

I would push back a little here. 

Actually, first, let me clarify what it is you were proposing.  This is what you said at first:

"Your CC's have 15% increased duration

50% chance when critically hitting a target to inflict 1 stack of confusion for 5s/3s (PvE/Comp)

These effects are doubled if you are wielding a mace."

 

Then later:

"instead of Confusion on CC inflicting Confusion when hitting a CC'd foe opens up a large amount of synergy across all the weapon sets"

 

I wasn't sure if you meant that the "apply confusion on critical hit" effect was meant to be in effect always, or only when the enemy is CC'd.  

 

If the former (all crits have 50/100% chance of applying confusion), I would be worried that it would allow for way too much confusion application, especially from weapons (like whirling axe, in your example) that aren't condi weapons.  

 

If the latter (crits apply confusion to CC'd foes), I'd be worried that the relatively short windows of CC (1-3s in most cases) would not allow for meaningful confusion application.  You'd have to really try to hit those windows with something like whirling axe, hundred blades, or dagger storm to get any significant confusion output.    I feel that getting 3 stacks of Confusion on CC would just be so much cleaner and more consistent--and yet not overpowered.

 

I do hear you that this was apparently tried way back in the day and that it was found to be too weak.  I will have to defer to you on that, as I'm a relatively new arrival to the scene (coming up on one year! \o/).  I might suggest, though, that the problem wasn't that the confusion applied was too little or too weak, but rather that Warrior just didn't (and doesn't) have a quality condition build to complement it.  I think if Sword were re-worked (as in the first post in this series) and Mace were re-worked as we're currently discussing, Warrior would actually have quite a lot of condi pressure to bring to bear--mostly in bleeding and torment, and some burning if running Berserker.  Adding some extra stacks of confusion on CC would be the icing on the cake--it's meant to augment something that's already strong, not to be the key piece of its strength.  Adding in Body Blow (and I agree, increasing the bleed stacks would be great) could make this truly lethal.  Condi War would really be a thing, and maybe even vie for a spot in the meta.

 

Grand Marshal and I were discussing some different ideas for Sundering Mace earlier in the posts, and these were a few ideas we had kicked around.  I welcome your thoughts; I'm partial the the second option myself.

 

On 9/1/2021 at 11:09 AM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

A compromise position might be to have Sundering Mace provide:

-20% reduced recharge to mace skills

-All CC's last 20% longer

-Mace CCs apply confusion (3 stacks for 3s)

 

Alternatively, you could do: 

-20% reduced recharge to mace skills

-Mace CC's last 20% longer

-All CCs apply confusion (3 stacks for 3s)

 

As always, thanks for the good discussion!

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

9 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Thanks, @Lan Deathrider.5910!  I always appreciate the time and thought you put into your commentary.  It's very helpful.

 

Also, I'm sorry that the Omnibus' suggestions were co-opted like they were...that's a big gut-punch to you and all the other contributors.  You guys deserve better.

 

To your suggestions:

RE: the AA chain--I love it.  Great idea!  Let's do that instead.

 

RE: Tremor:

I had thought about the difference to the breakbar, too, but I was worried that a 3s knockdown would be too much for competitive play (after all, Earthshaker, on which Tremor 2.0 is based, has a max stun of 2s).  That, and I like launching my opponents to flop on the ground like a fish.  But you're right; we don't want to reduce Mace's effectiveness in PvE.  So a better option might be a competitive split: 3s knockdown in PvE and 2s in PvP/WvW.  

 

RE: Sundering Mace:

I would push back a little here. 

Actually, first, let me clarify what it is you were proposing.  This is what you said at first:

"Your CC's have 15% increased duration

50% chance when critically hitting a target to inflict 1 stack of confusion for 5s/3s (PvE/Comp)

These effects are doubled if you are wielding a mace."

 

Then later:

"instead of Confusion on CC inflicting Confusion when hitting a CC'd foe opens up a large amount of synergy across all the weapon sets"

That is my bad. I meant to say 50% chance when hitting a CC'd foe. I did not intend a flat 50% chance all the time and then doubled on when wielding a mace. Thank you for catching that. It would indeed be too powerful like that lol.

9 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I wasn't sure if you meant that the "apply confusion on critical hit" effect was meant to be in effect always, or only when the enemy is CC'd.  

See above. Thank you for catching that. I miss wrote what I intended to write.

9 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

If the former (all crits have 50/100% chance of applying confusion), I would be worried that it would allow for way too much confusion application, especially from weapons (like whirling axe, in your example) that aren't condi weapons.  

 

If the latter (crits apply confusion to CC'd foes), I'd be worried that the relatively short windows of CC (1-3s in most cases) would not allow for meaningful confusion application.  You'd have to really try to hit those windows with something like whirling axe, hundred blades, or dagger storm to get any significant confusion output.    I feel that getting 3 stacks of Confusion on CC would just be so much cleaner and more consistent--and yet not overpowered.

You have to take  into account the longer CC durations there. Keep in mind I made that suggestion with a 3s knockdown Tremor in mind that would be boosted to 3.6s knockdown by the trait. Ditto for Bull's Charge or Headbutt. Skull Crack would end up a 5s stun after sigils. So there would be AMPLE time to apply large amounts of confusion depending on the skills used while allowing for counterplay to keep it from becoming too powerful.

9 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I do hear you that this was apparently tried way back in the day and that it was found to be too weak.  I will have to defer to you on that, as I'm a relatively new arrival to the scene (coming up on one year! \o/).  I might suggest, though, that the problem wasn't that the confusion applied was too little or too weak, but rather that Warrior just didn't (and doesn't) have a quality condition build to complement it.  I think if Sword were re-worked (as in the first post in this series) and Mace were re-worked as we're currently discussing, Warrior would actually have quite a lot of condi pressure to bring to bear--mostly in bleeding and torment, and some burning if running Berserker.  Adding some extra stacks of confusion on CC would be the icing on the cake--it's meant to augment something that's already strong, not to be the key piece of its strength.  Adding in Body Blow (and I agree, increasing the bleed stacks would be great) could make this truly lethal.  Condi War would really be a thing, and maybe even vie for a spot in the meta.

You may be right, but having played with it before  trust me when I say having confusion by means of  hitting the CC'd foe would be better and open up some build diversity (think skull crack -> Whirling Axe or 100B).

9 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Grand Marshal and I were discussing some different ideas for Sundering Mace earlier in the posts, and these were a few ideas we had kicked around.  I welcome your thoughts; I'm partial the the second option myself.

It's more less the same conversation. We want to add a non mace rider to sundering maces, like the rest of the weapon skills. Adding a smaller CC duration increase to non maces fits the bill. It would have to be something like 15% in order to be noticeable though, hence the 30% while wielding a mace that you see GM and me toss around.

My take on it after that is the 50% when hitting a CC'd foe apply confusion for  3s, doubled if a mace is equipped.

 

TBH I think mace on hitting a CC'd foe belongs on Unsuspecting Foe in Arms, but I can see it on Sundering Maces as well.

9 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

 

As always, thanks for the good discussion!

Always.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 9/1/2021 at 7:08 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

We burn with fiery passion.

We do. Until Berserker Form runs out and we are back to be 2/3 of a warrior without its class mechanic. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

We do. Until Berserker Form runs out and we are back to be 2/3 of a warrior without its class mechanic. 

Then we rely on pluck.

[Broxxgar.6801]

Counterblow should be tottally reworked, its a useless skill on PvP is a just one shot block... them cd or adrenaline cast.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

4 minutes ago, Broxxgar.6801 said:

Counterblow should be tottally reworked, its a useless skill on PvP is a just one shot block... them cd or adrenaline cast.

Interestingly enough, after a long discussion happened here in the forum concerning block and relfect uptime on warrior, counterblow was somehow changed from being a one attack block from both range and melee into being a full block while blocking projectiles. This occured to me while roaming after the first beta took place and ended.

 

Now it is back to it's original behavior, but it truly makes you question if this is intended cause riposte has the same description and yet fully blocks ranged attacks. So either they don't want to fix counterblow, or they don't know riposte behaves like that.

[Broxxgar.6801]

 

15 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Interestingly enough, after a long discussion happened here in the forum concerning block and relfect uptime on warrior, counterblow was somehow changed from being a one attack block from both range and melee into being a full block while blocking projectiles. This occured to me while roaming after the first beta took place and ended.

 

Now it is back to it's original behavior, but it truly makes you question if this is intended cause riposte has the same description and yet fully blocks ranged attacks. So either they don't want to fix counterblow, or they don't know riposte behaves like that.

Didn't know about this change during the first beta. I was probably not using mace on that time, but seem that  when I was trying to implement it on my build in many times this slot skill make itselft useless. Was like the kind of skill that a just press because was  available, and suddenly I remember why a I'm not use this skill on my rotation or combo, again its incrediable useless against range opponents and against meele you need to be even more clutch since that any range attack can easily broke it. This really kitten you off. Or they put it like a riposte or they can remove it and put a blank slot skill with nothing there on PvP.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Broxxgar.6801

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 minute ago, Broxxgar.6801 said:

 

Didn't know about this change during the first beta. I was probably not using mace on that time, but seem that  when I was trying to implement it on my build in many times this slot skill make itselft useless. Was like the kind of skill that a just press because was  available, and suddenly I remember why a I'm not use this skill on my rotation or combo, again its incrediable useless against range opponents and against meele you need to be even more clutch since that any range attack can easily broke it. This really kitten you off. Or they put it like a riposte or they can remove it and put it on a blank slot skill with nothing there on PvP.

Not even worth using vs LB 2 rangers and sevenshot renegades when traited to reflect and lower cd on mace skills. The best use ive found for it is: zerging (using the mace to block pulls on range spikes is a mini aegis) and sometimes on thief duels on berserker (strictly on berserker because of skull grinder) where it can be useful in blocking a shadow shot (not the blind but the attack if delivered).

 

AS for my core warr builds that may use mace, its usually just for T3 skullcrack.

 

Counterblow is truly weird and I dont want to see it removbed, more like for it function properly.

[Broxxgar.6801]

Yeah, I use it on my dual-wield Mace build. That is on PvP hard tests, I'm using dual wield mace just for T3 skull crack, Tremor and crushing blow. It's viable, but is like that I have just 4 skill of 5 slots. Is really good when you put together Counterblow and Crushingblow  so we can put 25% of vulnerability on the enemy,but again is very hard to have it.

Maybe I'm using it wrong. 'If a enemy range hit you and a meele enemy is near maybe its can proc this skill correctly, I don't know.....' ,but the way this skill is now, is increadible useless.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Yeah, there is an undocumented change there as Counterblow is only blocking one ranged attack at the moment.

 

That makes it a bug btw.

[covahlam.6391]

On 9/15/2021 at 6:46 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Yeah, there is an undocumented change there as Counterblow is only blocking one ranged attack at the moment.

 

That makes it a bug btw.

Is that even with shield master traited? Haven't really paid attention to counterblow in a while, but I know it used to only block multiple ranged attacks if shield master was equipped.

 

On another note I've been running offhand mace the past few days, and it is... surprisingly not bad? Been pairing it with sword and GS on swap; rest of the build is basically standard strength spellbreaker. I like how tremor + savage leap extend my reach. Crushing blow + final thrust can be a nice 1-2 punch to finish someone off, too. Granted this has been in unranked.

 

Back on topic, as has been suggested many times, tremor should be a cone rather than projectile. Crushing blow feels a bit like a strong auto attack and could have slightly higher reach or even a 50-100 unit dash. For mainhand mace I think I'd even be happy with an F1 leap, reliable block on 2, and one of these confusion on CC effects floating around this thread. Of course the auto chain could be faster as well. Separately, mace would already be a lot better if body blow was basically lightning rod 2.0.

Edited September 16, 2021 by covahlam.6391

[Broxxgar.6801]

42 minutes ago, covahlam.6391 said:

Is that even with shield master traited? Haven't really paid attention to counterblow in a while, but I know it used to only block multiple ranged attacks if shield master was equipped.

No, 'Counterblow' should work as 'Riposte'. You should keep blocking until finish the skill time or someone near you would receive a counter-attack. The CD of the skill is to long for one-block and medium dmg.