Don't you think that Aegis has become overpowered?

[Acyk.9671]

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Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Zenith.7301]

1 hour ago, Acyk.9671 said:

W

No reason to nerf FB in WvW even more. it's not over performing and if you want to ask for FB nerfs in PvE suit yourself but find a way that doesn't kitten FB in WvW.

I'm tired of PvE players asking for buffs all the time and then when a class is too dominant or present they ask design change that would destroy everything everywhere. If people in PvE didn't ask for passives to apply 100% of the time you wouldn't have healbrand in fractals and people in WvW wouldn't have had to suffer through years and years of power creep and questionable balance changes to suit your kittening needs. The same apply for quickness and alacrity everywhere with your "we need 100% boon duration". Life was good in WvW before they introduced these boons everywhere.

 

Yeah, life was so good with 90% guardian, 10% warrior frontlines and 90% thief roamers 5% mesmer 5% engineer. Class variety was sooo good in WvW before HoT. Except it wasn't.

[Acyk.9671]

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Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Acyk.9671 said:

@Fueki.4753  @draxynnic.3719

 

The reality is if FB is deemed too prevalent and somehow unbalanced in PvE, Anet can always bring some past WvW/PvP nerfs into PvE but redesigning the entire spec or aegis at this point would have a negative impact on too many situations and the unknowns are too great.  We know what we lose not what we win...

The design should stay as is and Anet should tune things where it is needed but WvW isn't one of these. It's balanced there! Contrary to popular opinion, FB in WvW isn't overpowered. It's a good boon support but that's it. Tomes have been nerfed to its minimum and mantras were also heavily nerfed so the balance is right.

 

Actually Anet could buff Legendary Lore back to what it was prior to February 2020 (this trait is dead atm) and bring back some self heal on Mantra of Solace. It wouldn't even be unbalanced!

When new e-specs get released we can reevaluate what needs to be nerfed or not for the good of balance in every game mode. 

 

Pretty much. Honestly, too, I'm thinking that some aspects of this discussion are just demonstrating how much people aren't paying attention to the opportunity cost associated with being in a tome while underestimating the benefit of the instant activation core virtues you can just use without interrupting your rotation. The proposals people are making to "nerf" firebrand by having them choose the tome that actually gets used by their build and replaces the other two with instant activation core virtues is actually giving me a bit of a "don't throw me in that briar patch!" feel. It'd make the firebrand less interesting, I think, but I'm not sure it would actually make it weaker overall, and in some situations it might even be a buff.

 

Personally, I've always considered that the 'over-prevalence' of guardians is simply because of how many roles it can fill. One of three professions that can offer perma-quickness, and scrapper only got that fairly recently. You can supply it as a healer build or a condi DPS build depending on what your party or squad needs. If quickness isn't needed, you can commit fully to condi or flip over to dragonhunter for power DPS. Which means that as long as a group has alacrity, you can rock up and fill in whatever they DON'T have, unless the group is specifically looking for an ideal composition.

 

Granted, there is an issue with the way breakbars were changed that makes burst condis particularly powerful, but I'd call that a problem with that specific mechanic rather than breakbars in general.

 

We've got a new set of elite specialisations coming early next year, and among them we've seen another quickness applier. We should probably see how the meta responds to the new elite specialisations before applying nerf-motivated reworks.

[Zenith.7301]

19 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Pretty much. Honestly, too, I'm thinking that some aspects of this discussion are just demonstrating how much people aren't paying attention to the opportunity cost associated with being in a tome while underestimating the benefit of the instant activation core virtues you can just use without interrupting your rotation. The proposals people are making to "nerf" firebrand by having them choose the tome that actually gets used by their build and replaces the other two with instant activation core virtues is actually giving me a bit of a "don't throw me in that briar patch!" feel. It'd make the firebrand less interesting, I think, but I'm not sure it would actually make it weaker overall, and in some situations it might even be a buff.

 

Personally, I've always considered that the 'over-prevalence' of guardians is simply because of how many roles it can fill. One of three professions that can offer perma-quickness, and scrapper only got that fairly recently. You can supply it as a healer build or a condi DPS build depending on what your party or squad needs. If quickness isn't needed, you can commit fully to condi or flip over to dragonhunter for power DPS. Which means that as long as a group has alacrity, you can rock up and fill in whatever they DON'T have, unless the group is specifically looking for an ideal composition.

 

Granted, there is an issue with the way breakbars were changed that makes burst condis particularly powerful, but I'd call that a problem with that specific mechanic rather than breakbars in general.

 

We've got a new set of elite specialisations coming early next year, and among them we've seen another quickness applier. We should probably see how the meta responds to the new elite specialisations before applying nerf-motivated reworks.

 

 

That's just hogwash. Guardian isn't prevalent because it can multirole. Necro runs nothing but scourge since the other specs are garbage, and it is dominant. Similarly, Revenant can multirole, but isn't prevalent.

 

Guardian is prevalent because no class has the monopoly on stability and aegis Guardian has, and for PvE these are huge DPS gains when you're allowed to trivialize mechanics and stay on the boss without fear of being one shot. Moreover, HB is just grossly overpowered. It can stack all boons except alacrity, bring reflects without changing utility thanks to a tome, and has CC to boot; at the sacrifice of a condi cleanse mantra, it can bring one of the strongest PvE CC's in the game.

 

Fact is, outside Citadel of Flame ele/warrior/mesmer memes, Guardian has been a totally domineering class in all game formats because it brings a metric ton of utility with little tax to their performance in their primary role.

 

Hell, the power creep with firebrand is just gross. How can you justify Firebrand outbursting dragonhunters in fractals, literally a pure damage spec whose only utility is a conal block on a long cd while firebrand brings the same capacity to pull, more aoe aegis for the group, better sustained and burst DPS, and the flexibility of quickness, stability, and a reflect available via tome to boot?

 

Firebrand and Scourge need to have their DPS shaved down to account for their utility. Not to the previous levels of scourge where it did really bad DPS in a full DPS stat build, but definitely not 35-37k DPS.

 

Firebrand is to Dragonhunter what Scourge is to Reaper. Totally overtuned specs with a metric ton of utility totally eclipsing other specs within the class who don't bring anywhere near the utility and are supposed to be pure damage specs.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[draxynnic.3719]

The damage you speak of comes about because of the breakbar changes mentioned in the very post you referred to. They made conditions affected by the damage boost against broken enemies, and firebrand happens to be better at bursting than most condition specs. But before then, the nerf calls were absolutely 'how dare one profession have builds to fill multiple roles', despite that being ArenaNet's stated design goal.

 

Firebrand is also very dependent on the team to get that damage. Short of nerfing Ashes of the Just directly, the sort of nerfs you're implying would likely make it pretty unpleasant to play outside of team environments.

 

Plus, let's not forget that you're not getting all that in one build. A condi firebrand that builds for maximum burst isn't upkeeping quickness. Condi quickbrand obviously exists, but sacrifices DPS to do so.

 

Other classes can bring stability. Aegis less so apart from a couple of mesmer abilities, but other professions have other defences such as barrier. Revenant could be as prevalent if more people played it - healren did get a nasty nerf, but alacren has less competition for alacrity than firebrand has for quickness, condi renegade outbenched condi FB last time I checked, power herald is underrated, and most if not all revenant builds can take Jalis for stability and party protection without giving up much DPS. Ventari is also an option for projectile blocking at a larger DPS loss, but the projectile block uptime is higher than a firebrand even if the firebrand camps Tome of Courage (and if they do that, their DPS goes into the toilet because they're spending close to half a minute doing nothing with the left side of the bar except popping a bubble every five seconds).

 

Broadly speaking, I think we should wait to see what the new elite specialisations bring. Harbinger lets necro compete for quickness. Virtuoso and Willbender are pretty straightforward DPS specs, but they are coming on professions that already have strong support roles. The new elites might well bring some similar versatility to other professions.

[Zenith.7301]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The damage you speak of comes about because of the breakbar changes mentioned in the very post you referred to. They made conditions affected by the damage boost against broken enemies, and firebrand happens to be better at bursting than most condition specs. But before then, the nerf calls were absolutely 'how dare one profession have builds to fill multiple roles', despite that being ArenaNet's stated design goal.

 

Firebrand is also very dependent on the team to get that damage. Short of nerfing Ashes of the Just directly, the sort of nerfs you're implying would likely make it pretty unpleasant to play outside of team environments.

 

Plus, let's not forget that you're not getting all that in one build. A condi firebrand that builds for maximum burst isn't upkeeping quickness. Condi quickbrand obviously exists, but sacrifices DPS to do so.

 

Other classes can bring stability. Aegis less so apart from a couple of mesmer abilities, but other professions have other defences such as barrier. Revenant could be as prevalent if more people played it - healren did get a nasty nerf, but alacren has less competition for alacrity than firebrand has for quickness, condi renegade outbenched condi FB last time I checked, power herald is underrated, and most if not all revenant builds can take Jalis for stability and party protection without giving up much DPS. Ventari is also an option for projectile blocking at a larger DPS loss, but the projectile block uptime is higher than a firebrand even if the firebrand camps Tome of Courage (and if they do that, their DPS goes into the toilet because they're spending close to half a minute doing nothing with the left side of the bar except popping a bubble every five seconds).

 

Broadly speaking, I think we should wait to see what the new elite specialisations bring. Harbinger lets necro compete for quickness. Virtuoso and Willbender are pretty straightforward DPS specs, but they are coming on professions that already have strong support roles. The new elites might well bring some similar versatility to other professions.

 

 

The damage I speak up exists despite the breakbar changes. The only thing outbursting a firebrand on regular T4 mob groups is a wells reaper with high mob count as well as maybe a traps dragonhunter.

 

And no, it is terrible design to wait for more powercreep elite specs even more OP than Firebrand or Scourge to wait to balance these outliers out.

 

Firebrand is not remotely reliant on the group to deal damage; in any half competent fractals group, the only place where firebrand is losing is 100cm maybe to a scourge. That's it. Everywhere else they're ahead by miles of all other classes.

 

Your claim about stability is outright disingenuous. Who else brings stability in a practical sense without gutting their DPS? Firebrand pays no opportunity cost, it is literally their elite, which can be cast during any skill. Renewed Focus is at best DPS neutral, more often a DPS loss. Feel My Wrath is redundant in your average group. Do you expect a mesmer to give up 180 condition damage, expertise, or crystal sands to bring a stability mantra that only gives stability, not even resolution? Totally subpar. Who else do you expect to bring group stability? No one.. Aegis? Nobody will bring, certainly not a mesmer in its far more limited and niche circumstances because a mesmer can't replace the healer role, and it is so thoroughly subpar compared to renegade in DPS and utility output, it's not even a choice.

 

Who brings Resolution for Afflicted week or 100cm/Artsariv/Nightmare/Siren's? That's right, only Guardian is a reliable source for it.

 

Condi renegade does more DPS than condi firebrand because it takes a metric ton of ramp up, has awful target switching, and a condi DPS renegade brings literally zero utility in the two legends it brings. Firebrand literally pops f3, plops 2 skills, and gives the group decreased damage intake and a reflect. It literally has 2 built in revenant legends on top of its own set of utility skills as the tome mechanic. Alacrity renegade has far more competition than quickness healbrands. For one, alacrity mirage is pretty strong in raids, it's passable in fractals, and quickness scrapper is the only quickness alternative to firebrand, and it won't be brought in fractals because it does not do condi damage.

 

If it were up to me, I'd delete the damage bonus from the breakbar in fractals, it will make for healthier class balance, but then you'd have people throwing a tantrum that they can't skip phases in CM's.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Acyk.9671]

 

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

The damage I speak up exists despite the breakbar changes. The only thing outbursting a firebrand on regular T4 mob groups is a wells reaper with high mob count as well as maybe a traps dragonhunter.

It's not in the new site, but the old Snowcrows site had a benchmark for condi firebrand on its own versus condi firebrand with allies to trigger Ashes. It was a 4K difference.

5 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Your claim about stability is outright disingenuous. Who else brings stability in a practical sense without gutting their DPS? Firebrand pays no opportunity cost, it is literally their elite, which can be cast during any skill. Renewed Focus is at best DPS neutral, more often a DPS loss. Feel My Wrath is redundant in your average group. Do you expect a mesmer to give up 180 condition damage, expertise, or crystal sands to bring a stability mantra that only gives stability, not even resolution? Totally subpar. Who else do you expect to bring group stability? No one.. Aegis? Nobody will bring, certainly not a mesmer in its far more limited and niche circumstances because a mesmer can't replace the healer role, and it is so thoroughly subpar compared to renegade in DPS and utility output, it's not even a choice.

Snowcrows disagrees with you here. Their condi firebrand build runs Renewed Focus, because it IS worth it to renew Tome of Courage against a boss. Back when I was running it in raids before my group's warrior quit and I ended up in bannerslave jail, that's what I was told to do as well. Condi quickbrand does use Feel My Wrath, as does healbrand. 

5 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Who brings Resolution for Afflicted week or 100cm/Artsariv/Nightmare/Siren's? That's right, only Guardian is a reliable source for it.

I'd call that a consequence of how recent the resistance and retribution changes were. If your problem is "guardian has a monopoly on X', then that's where we need to see what the new elite specialisations might be. That monopoly might not last. Furthermore, unless I'm missing my mark on where it comes from, that resolution is coming from running Zeal, using a greatsword, or both, which is likely to be a DPS loss on firebrand. Personally, I think turning retribution into the "reduce damage taken from conditions" boon was a monumentally bad idea, particularly since guardian already had a lot of ability to deal with conditions while condi revenant was very reliant on resistance, so a rebalance in this specific area is probably warranted. Give more resolution to the professions that were more reliant on resistance before, and find something else for those skills and traits to do on guardian.

5 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

Condi renegade does more DPS than condi firebrand because it takes a metric ton of ramp up, has awful target switching, and a condi DPS renegade brings literally zero utility in the two legends it brings. Firebrand literally pops f3, plops 2 skills, and gives the group decreased damage intake and a reflect. It literally has 2 built in revenant legends on top of its own set of utility skills as the tome mechanic. Alacrity renegade has far more competition than quickness healbrands. For one, alacrity mirage is pretty strong in raids, it's passable in fractals, and quickness scrapper is the only quickness alternative to firebrand, and it won't be brought in fractals because it does not do condi damage.

What's quickness chrono, chopped liver? Granted, it's probably a little weak in fractals in the current meta, but I'm hoping that won't be a permanent thing.

 

Condition alacrity renegade is a thing, although admittedly it gives up more DPS than quickbrand does. However, I suspect that's partially because there isn't a good condition+concentration set, so condition alacrity renegades are forced to use Celestial while quickbrand can get away with remaining in Viper's. If there was a condi/power/conc/exp set, or at least condi/precision/conc/exp, condition alacrity renegade would probably do a lot better.

 

I'd also question the assertion that condi renegade brings no utility. It has Assassin's Presence. It runs Lasting Legacy, so in the unlikely case that the group doesn't have full Might, you can hit F2 to bump it up (which is honestly one of the reasons I don't take much stock in "it has nearly every boon in the game" arguments - it sounds impressive, but in practice there are some boons that are so common you can just assume your group will have one way or another). You're also still not getting that much out of Kalla's legend skills, so it's probably not a huge DPS loss to switch a legend there for more utility. (Which is something that I see a lot with rev. If the team needs something from another legend, the revenant switches a legend to provide it.)

 

Sure, you could say that F3-5-3 lets firebrand act like a pocket revenant... but the uptime on that is five seconds a minute before Alacrity. A well-played revenant with Ventari or Jalis is a lot closer to having that stuff on demand.

 

[Zenith.7301]

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's not in the new site, but the old Snowcrows site had a benchmark for condi firebrand on its own versus condi firebrand with allies to trigger Ashes. It was a 4K difference.

Snowcrows disagrees with you here. Their condi firebrand build runs Renewed Focus, because it IS worth it to renew Tome of Courage against a boss. Back when I was running it in raids before my group's warrior quit and I ended up in bannerslave jail, that's what I was told to do as well. Condi quickbrand does use Feel My Wrath, as does healbrand. 

I'd call that a consequence of how recent the resistance and retribution changes were. If your problem is "guardian has a monopoly on X', then that's where we need to see what the new elite specialisations might be. That monopoly might not last. Furthermore, unless I'm missing my mark on where it comes from, that resolution is coming from running Zeal, using a greatsword, or both, which is likely to be a DPS loss on firebrand. Personally, I think turning retribution into the "reduce damage taken from conditions" boon was a monumentally bad idea, particularly since guardian already had a lot of ability to deal with conditions while condi revenant was very reliant on resistance, so a rebalance in this specific area is probably warranted. Give more resolution to the professions that were more reliant on resistance before, and find something else for those skills and traits to do on guardian.

What's quickness chrono, chopped liver? Granted, it's probably a little weak in fractals in the current meta, but I'm hoping that won't be a permanent thing.

 

Condition alacrity renegade is a thing, although admittedly it gives up more DPS than quickbrand does. However, I suspect that's partially because there isn't a good condition+concentration set, so condition alacrity renegades are forced to use Celestial while quickbrand can get away with remaining in Viper's. If there was a condi/power/conc/exp set, or at least condi/precision/conc/exp, condition alacrity renegade would probably do a lot better.

 

I'd also question the assertion that condi renegade brings no utility. It has Assassin's Presence. It runs Lasting Legacy, so in the unlikely case that the group doesn't have full Might, you can hit F2 to bump it up (which is honestly one of the reasons I don't take much stock in "it has nearly every boon in the game" arguments - it sounds impressive, but in practice there are some boons that are so common you can just assume your group will have one way or another). You're also still not getting that much out of Kalla's legend skills, so it's probably not a huge DPS loss to switch a legend there for more utility. (Which is something that I see a lot with rev. If the team needs something from another legend, the revenant switches a legend to provide it.)

 

Sure, you could say that F3-5-3 lets firebrand act like a pocket revenant... but the uptime on that is five seconds a minute before Alacrity. A well-played revenant with Ventari or Jalis is a lot closer to having that stuff on demand.

 

 

 

1- Did you bother to open the video benchmark of Snow Crow's firebrand? Snow Crow has done terrible site maintenance (their condi mirage section isn't even complete), so the condi firebrand benchmark video is from a guy that directly states in his youtube video that renewed focus is DPS neutral at best. Snow Crow's website is outdated.

 

2- Healbrand does not run Feel My Wrath in fractals,  because the stability+resolution from the elite mantra is far more useful, and healbrand rotating 2 axe symbols can maintain fury just fine for fractal encounters. Unfortunately, most idiots who see a guide section in snow crows don't read Discretize about elite usage, so they run the same builds everywhere regardless of what the team needs. People are lazy.

 

3- Quickness chrono is dead in the water, it was gutted thoroughly and completely eclipsed by the power creep of renegade and firebrand. The only place it sees use is raid tanking. Mesmer has been utterly deleted from fractals because all its specs have heavy ramp up in a setting where burst is golden, and mesmer target switch is abysmal, where many CM encounters require quick target swaps like in Nightmare, 100cm if you're not exploiting epidemic, 99cm in Artsariv, Skorvald has super short phases with short lived adds that make mesmer especially awful.

 

4- Resolution isn't maintained from greatsword symbol. Your firebrand elite applies it. In 100cm, where the only stability you need is for Fears exploding on the group, the rest of the fight you cycle through 3 charges so the torment and confusion applied by any lasers that get through your aegis is minimized. This is particularly important in Afflicted weeks. Same for Artsariv, MAMA, and Ensolyss. In Twilight Oasis with afflicted instab retribution is invaluable as well, and on Siren's Reef it is essential.

 

5- Yeah, that's a fine hypothetical, but the fact is it doesn't exist as a stat. I don't deal in hypotheticals. I deal in a scenario where fractal class variety is being strangled by firebrand and scourge. Both have absurd damage for the sheer utility they have, and as condi specs they unfairly stand out in their ability to frontload condition damage relative to the other condi specs who have significantly higher ramp up. Epidemic needs nerfing in range so you can't cheese sorrows and have to do proper CC. Firebrand and scourge utility need to come with DPS taxes so their more pure damage DPS specs in reaper and dragonhunter aren't totally eclipsed.

 

6- Kalla is plenty of DPS. Ire and Rage provide a DPS boost that no other legend besides Mallyx can match; if you swapped to Ventari or Jalis as condi renegade, your damage will tank.

 

7- Uptime of guardian's tome is irrelevant when the encounters are so short that a single rotation or two of the incredibly powerful tomes are sufficient to clear the encounter. Even if you delete the exposed bar, the bosses in fractals don't have enough HP to live long enough for mirage or condi renegade to come online, and because they have short phases still with target switching that renegade and mirage suck at, scourge and firebrand will continue to completely dominate unless they're tuned down.

 

This is not healthy. Before during the old power meta, yes, DH was strong, but you saw soulbeasts, you saw holosmiths, you saw eles, you saw reapers, and mesmers sucked a bit less. Now it's just "SCOURGE AND FIREBRAND ONLY" CM groups 90% of the time. It's terrible spec balancing, and waiting for power creep from EoD specs instead of fixing the many current specs being eclipsed by firebrand and scourge now is not an acceptable solution.

[cat.8975]

3 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

relative to the other condi specs who have significantly higher ramp up.

Most condi builds have a 15-20s rampup these days, Firebrand included.

[Zenith.7301]

1 hour ago, cat.8975 said:

Most condi builds have a 15-20s rampup these days, Firebrand included.

 

Sure, but when a fractal bar is exposed, the 2 scourges/firebrands are getting most of their contribution into phasing the boss before mirage/renegade even come online. The latter will never match the former in short phases.

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

1- Did you bother to open the video benchmark of Snow Crow's firebrand? Snow Crow has done terrible site maintenance (their condi mirage section isn't even complete), so the condi firebrand benchmark video is from a guy that directly states in his youtube video that renewed focus is DPS neutral at best. Snow Crow's website is outdated.

Oh, hey, saying that the site is outdated when I specifically said I was referring to the old site. The new site doesn't have the "doesn't have a team" benchmark.

 

The point there was that Ashes of the Just hitting multiple party members is a significant portion of the DPS - something you wouldn't have while running solo. Similar to how Razorclaw is pretty much useless in anything outside of whole-team-stacked-on-the-boss scenarios.

6 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

2- Healbrand does not run Feel My Wrath in fractals,  because the stability+resolution from the elite mantra is far more useful, and healbrand rotating 2 axe symbols can maintain fury just fine for fractal encounters. Unfortunately, most idiots who see a guide section in snow crows don't read Discretize about elite usage, so they run the same builds everywhere regardless of what the team needs. People are lazy.

Your contention was that the alternate elites offered nothing or less than nothing, so firebrand wasn't giving anything up for the stability mantra. Given that the Snowcrows builds use the other elites, I think that disproves that claim. 

 

Now, it's certainly a fair observation that Snowcrows assumes that players will adjust to deal with mechanics (and the old site at least gave descriptions of how to do that - I'm not sure the new site has kept up there, haven't been looking because my raid group is on hiatus and I've been in bannerslave jail anyway). I'd also say that stability is more of an issue in fractals and strikes than raids, but I've definitely seen it being supplied by other professions as much as guardians, sometimes even in preference to the guardian.

6 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

3- Quickness chrono is dead in the water, it was gutted thoroughly and completely eclipsed by the power creep of renegade and firebrand. The only place it sees use is raid tanking. Mesmer has been utterly deleted from fractals because all its specs have heavy ramp up in a setting where burst is golden, and mesmer target switch is abysmal, where many CM encounters require quick target swaps like in Nightmare, 100cm if you're not exploiting epidemic, 99cm in Artsariv, Skorvald has super short phases with short lived adds that make mesmer especially awful.

Yeah, Chronomancer is really suffering from not being viable to bring both quickness and alacrity any more, but I still saw quickness chrono fairly commonly in raids and strikes. So this sounds like a fractal problem rather than a high-end PvE problem.

6 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

4- Resolution isn't maintained from greatsword symbol. Your firebrand elite applies it. In 100cm, where the only stability you need is for Fears exploding on the group, the rest of the fight you cycle through 3 charges so the torment and confusion applied by any lasers that get through your aegis is minimized. This is particularly important in Afflicted weeks. Same for Artsariv, MAMA, and Ensolyss. In Twilight Oasis with afflicted instab retribution is invaluable as well, and on Siren's Reef it is essential.

Okay, I was looking for ways to 100% uptime it, while you were just looking for short bursts.

 

Again, the real problem here, like I said last post, is the ad hoc one-to-one substitution of retribution for resolution. This is something that really needs to be looked at in general, since on guardian it makes them overly condition resistant while things like Mallyx which used to be able to just make your party ignore conditions through Pain Absorption are doing half the job they were originally balanced to do. Pain Absorption really should give both resolution and resistance to everything (still a nerf compared to old Resistance, but they just haven't fully considered the effect on that skill)

6 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

5- Yeah, that's a fine hypothetical, but the fact is it doesn't exist as a stat. I don't deal in hypotheticals. I deal in a scenario where fractal class variety is being strangled by firebrand and scourge. Both have absurd damage for the sheer utility they have, and as condi specs they unfairly stand out in their ability to frontload condition damage relative to the other condi specs who have significantly higher ramp up. Epidemic needs nerfing in range so you can't cheese sorrows and have to do proper CC. Firebrand and scourge utility need to come with DPS taxes so their more pure damage DPS specs in reaper and dragonhunter aren't totally eclipsed.

You can say you don't deal in hypotheticals all you like, but it'd look pretty silly if Firebrand gets the kitten nerfed out of it, and then EoD brings other professions up to the level that firebrand is at, especially since unlike us ArenaNet knows what's coming. Expansions usually come with new prefixes (a large part of what makes the current metas work is fuelled by Harrier and Diviner, which come from PoF release and Season 4 respectively), and that might even the scores.

6 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

6- Kalla is plenty of DPS. Ire and Rage provide a DPS boost that no other legend besides Mallyx can match; if you swapped to Ventari or Jalis as condi renegade, your damage will tank.

Rage pretty much needs ideal situations to be more worthwhile than Soulcleave even on a viper build, and have you noticed that Icerazor is pure power? Obviously it's the best option if you just want pure DPS, but Jalis has hammers as a substitute. I don't think running Mallyx/Jalis instead of Mallyx/Kalla would tank your DPS as much as you seem to think it does. Viper obviously isn't Berserker's, but it does still bring power and precision.

6 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

7- Uptime of guardian's tome is irrelevant when the encounters are so short that a single rotation or two of the incredibly powerful tomes are sufficient to clear the encounter. Even if you delete the exposed bar, the bosses in fractals don't have enough HP to live long enough for mirage or condi renegade to come online, and because they have short phases still with target switching that renegade and mirage suck at, scourge and firebrand will continue to completely dominate unless they're tuned down.

 

This is not healthy. Before during the old power meta, yes, DH was strong, but you saw soulbeasts, you saw holosmiths, you saw eles, you saw reapers, and mesmers sucked a bit less. Now it's just "SCOURGE AND FIREBRAND ONLY" CM groups 90% of the time. It's terrible spec balancing, and waiting for power creep from EoD specs instead of fixing the many current specs being eclipsed by firebrand and scourge now is not an acceptable solution.

So, fractal problem. That's not my experience in most raids and strikes - firebrands popping into F3 and dropping the bubble and then getting out won't cut it on bears, for instance (you don't NEED projectile reflection/destruction on bears, to be sure, but it certainly provides margin for error that's worth accepting a bit of a DPS loss on one player). 

 

Honestly, the longer this discussion goes, the more it feels like the real problem isn't that firebrand is overpowered in general, it's that fractals specifically have ended up being tuned so that what the firebrand brings to the table is a perfect fit. Which is a problem, but I don't think that kneejerk firebrand nerfs are the appropriate solution.

[Axl.8924]

Personally since one of you mentioned willbender i still don-t get where its supposed to be in pve if at all.

[Asum.4960]

On 8/31/2021 at 5:24 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

The problem isn't Aegis, it's Firebrand.

Firebrand can do too much in one build and deserves to get trimmed down.

 

Firebrand should have access too only one Tome at any given time.

This could be a choice in the Major Adept traits, similar to how Daredevil has a choice of dodge mechanics in its Major Grandmaster traits.

In exchange, Archivist of Whispers becomes baseline.

Loremaster gets removed. Neither Core Guardian nor Dragonhunter have access to their passives when the virtues are on cooldown, so Firebrand should not have the option.

 

With these changes, only dedicated builds would have access to Tome of Courage, which reduces the access to Aegis for Firebrands who choose the other tomes. This would effectively cut out a big chunk of the Aegis problem you perceive, while properly toning down Firebrand.

 

That leaves Mantra of Solace, but other than completely replacing its Aegis or reducing its duration, nothing can be done for it.

Only one tome of which you don't maintain the Passive would make Firebrand incredibly boring, passive and one dimensional though. 

On a condi DPS build you'd always pick Justice.. just to then never use it because you need the Justice Passive - so the spec would just lose a massive amount of DPS, the baseline Archivist would be useless and it would be more boring to play. 

 

Powerbuilds.. probably pick justice too and then never use it, because unlike Spear of Justice and Big Game Hunter, it's still extra sustained DPS from procs over actually using the tome.

 

Healbrand doesn't really need tomes tbh, so it would mostly be fine - probably would pick Resolve if running Virtues-Battle Presence and such.. and then never use it to retain the passive. 

 

Courage might only see use anymore on more offensive Signet Share Radiance Heal Brands in extremely niche cases where obscene stab is required, but even then it would probably not be worth investing in with it's CD. 

 

So imo this change would just gut the spec in terms of fun and skill to play, while still leaving the Aegis Spam mostly in place - Courage really isn't the problem here, esp with it's 75 second CD. 

 

The only way I see the "Specialize into one Virtue entirely" path work, is if part of selecting your tome of choice via GM's is the retaining of that passive, as well as probably some reworks to the Tomes itself being required to make that worthwhile, esp. Courage, as well as drastic CD reductions to base Virtue levels. 

As is, any form of DPS Brand always wants to maintain the Justice passive for DPS, and any form of Virtues Healbrand always wants to maintain the Resolve passive for sharing. The Tomes itself wouldn't be worth their cast times in combination with losing their passives.

So outside of extreme niches, this change would just delete Tomes.

 

A more minor change they should imo try first is to creep up the Mantra CD's (Heal and Utilities, as well as Liberator's Vow and Stalwart Speed)) as well as their boon durations (excluding Aegis) and Solace Heal - to make them more impactful but less spammy, and with that reducing the Aegis output - rather than hacking the entire profession/spec mechanic into bits.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Zenith.7301]

Which is why the change to make aegis only for the firebrand and amp the healing power scaling of the mantra for healing to allies would be the first change. Maybe add a short duration vigor application to it instead of the aegis.

 

Then the work can be done to expand stability, resolution, condi cleanse, vigor, and regeneration to competing support specs like heal renegade (who idiotically had their regen on tablet removed for the worthless healing orb gimmick) and heal tempest. Heal Tempest will still probably need a stat boost aura, best fix would be to give them an empower allies equivalent of warrior or a toughness aura.

 

Might needs a rework anyways, the reliance for it to be mainly efficiently stacked to 25 stacks by a main support spec is strangling support spec viability, and might would benefit from not being a stacking boon, but a flat % damage increase boon that only stacks in duration.

[Arken.3725]

Definitely not.  If anything, it's still incredibly weak(spvp).  Aegis will always be weaker than durational blocks.

[draxynnic.3719]

I don't think might application is really that big a deal, since it's probably the most common boon in the game. It's an advantage for the support to be able to do it, but firebrands and druids are mainly taken for other reasons. Back when Grace of the Land was a unique buff and the only supports you generally saw were druids and chronos, people found ways to maximise Might anyway.

 

Similar comments apply with Fury, which is a duration-stacking boon. Often whatever's coming from the support there is primarily filling the gaps of other applications.

[Zenith.7301]

On 9/11/2021 at 10:23 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't think might application is really that big a deal, since it's probably the most common boon in the game. It's an advantage for the support to be able to do it, but firebrands and druids are mainly taken for other reasons. Back when Grace of the Land was a unique buff and the only supports you generally saw were druids and chronos, people found ways to maximise Might anyway.

 

Similar comments apply with Fury, which is a duration-stacking boon. Often whatever's coming from the support there is primarily filling the gaps of other applications.

 

 

Might stacking made warriors mandatory when Grace of The Land was a unique buff. Assuming we're imaginging Inspiration Signet is out of the picture after being gutted nerf after nerf.

 

The fact that the most powerful group boost in the game was condensed into the same support that provides quickness/alacrity is what makes HB/renegade currently so powerful as supports, since previously you had to divide support across the druid, chrono, and warrior to leave space for the ele DPS to shine. Now that chrono has been cannibalized and druid is irrelevant outside raids after gutting the elite spirit to not provide reliable stability, you have rene+FB leaving space for 3 pure DPS spec in fractals instead of just 2.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[draxynnic.3719]

I don't recall the exact benchmarks, but I don't think Phalanx Strength warriors gave up THAT much in DPS. Which is the point I was making - if Might isn't supplied by the support, people will find other ways to do it.

 

If anything, the support being able to do it opens up what professions can fill up other roles more. Fractal groups requiring a chrono, a druid, and a warrior was pretty sucky for anyone playing anything else - I'd say worse than firebrigade is now, particularly since firebrigade does have alternatives and will probably have more in February.

[Zenith.7301]

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't recall the exact benchmarks, but I don't think Phalanx Strength warriors gave up THAT much in DPS. Which is the point I was making - if Might isn't supplied by the support, people will find other ways to do it.

 

If anything, the support being able to do it opens up what professions can fill up other roles more. Fractal groups requiring a chrono, a druid, and a warrior was pretty sucky for anyone playing anything else - I'd say worse than firebrigade is now, particularly since firebrigade does have alternatives and will probably have more in February.

 

 

Warrior was doing 2/3 or less the DPS of an elementalist. It was a sizable loss only made up by how strong banners were as a group support (and they still are, and the only raid utility with no alternative or competitor, which would make Herald  and Tempest ideal for giving alternatives to warrior banners, maybe Reaper shouts as well).

 

And firebrigade has no alternatives. Good look filling any fractal CM group without a firebrigade. It's even worse now because the exposed bar changes made firebrand and scourge so utterly dominant, it's not even close. Before you'd have ele, DH, soulbeasts, pchrono, reaper could burst exposed bars well. Now after the exposed bar changes a reaper can't even touch 1/2 the burst a scourge is putting out with the exposed bar, and even far less the burst firebrand puts out in exposed for 99/98 cm. F1 reset on mob death has also made firebrand extremely strong in regular fractals, an exception to the usual condi class handicap vs. power.

DPS variety in fractals CM is now worse than ever.

On top of firebrand nerfs (or more directly, burn condition changes to give it more ramp up) or exposed bar changes, scourge epidemic needs its radius reduced to eliminate epidemic cheese on sorrows on 100cm and epidemic on arkk causing scourges to be so dominant by eliminating the need to do mechanics by other members of the group while staying on target.

 

Firebrands and scourges are strangling fractals compositions.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[draxynnic.3719]

And how much of that 2/3 of elementalist was because back then elementalist had a damage output well beyond anything else? Are we talking about the pre-icebow nerf days?

 

There are still plenty of other ways to cap might. Nike's PvE build series gives a few.

 

Personally, when it comes to letting people get into groups regardless of their professions, I'd say that role compression is a good thing. We're no longer looking at a meta where you have to have your chrono, your druid, your Might warrior, and probably two elementalists for the damage. Most fractal groups and ten-player content tend to be "okay, we've got quickness and alacrity covered, some healing, maybe something specific to the mechanics of the encounter in question, we're good to go." And in EoD, there's going to be at least one more profession able to compete for the role of quickness giver.

 

Now, if you're talking about 100CM, maybe that's a little bit too well tuned for burst condition damage, but that really sounds like a fractal tuning problem rather than a nerf-a-build-to-death problem.

[Infusion.7149]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't recall the exact benchmarks, but I don't think Phalanx Strength warriors gave up THAT much in DPS. Which is the point I was making - if Might isn't supplied by the support, people will find other ways to do it.

 

If anything, the support being able to do it opens up what professions can fill up other roles more. Fractal groups requiring a chrono, a druid, and a warrior was pretty sucky for anyone playing anything else - I'd say worse than firebrigade is now, particularly since firebrigade does have alternatives and will probably have more in February.

Depends on how far back you are going. I feel as anecdotes are not helpful especially when people's memory can be selective.

Here's some data.
2017 (Sept 2017 = PoF  launch)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6ch3ot/qt_updated_benchmarks_for_all_classes_may_16_2017/ Condi Berserker 31.4K , Condi PS ~27.7K
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7dtd6o/qt_updated_benchmarks_and_builds_november_7th/  Condi Berserker ~29K , Condi PS ~26.5K

 

2018
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7xr60v/sc_updated_benchmarks_0602_patch/ Condi Berserker = 33000, Condi banner = 30000

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8z1xk2/sc_updated_benchmarks_1007_balance_patch/ Condi Berserker 31500  ,Condi banner = 28200

 https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9naz3q/sc_updated_benchmarks_0210_balance_patch/ Condi Berserker 33500  ,Condi banner = 33000

2019
https://web.archive.org/web/20190115123541/https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/ Average Condi Berserker = 34900 , Condi BS = 34000

2020
https://web.archive.org/web/20200719181941/https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/ Average Condi Berserker = 36500 , Condi BS = 33500
https://web.archive.org/web/20200806080833/https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/ Average Condi Berserker = 36500 , Condi BS = 33500
https://web.archive.org/web/20201107230435/https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/ Average Condi Berserker = 36500, Condi BS = 33500

Edited September 13, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Zenith.7301]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

And how much of that 2/3 of elementalist was because back then elementalist had a damage output well beyond anything else? Are we talking about the pre-icebow nerf days?

 

There are still plenty of other ways to cap might. Nike's PvE build series gives a few.

 

Personally, when it comes to letting people get into groups regardless of their professions, I'd say that role compression is a good thing. We're no longer looking at a meta where you have to have your chrono, your druid, your Might warrior, and probably two elementalists for the damage. Most fractal groups and ten-player content tend to be "okay, we've got quickness and alacrity covered, some healing, maybe something specific to the mechanics of the encounter in question, we're good to go." And in EoD, there's going to be at least one more profession able to compete for the role of quickness giver.

 

Now, if you're talking about 100CM, maybe that's a little bit too well tuned for burst condition damage, but that really sounds like a fractal tuning problem rather than a nerf-a-build-to-death problem.

 

Role compression is fine if it is equally distributed. As it stands, it is not. Firebrand and renegade do role compression way better than the other professions, and some professions like elementalist and non-scourge necromancer don't do any role compression at all. If necromancer didn't have scourge being held up by epidemic and overtuned numbers, necromancer would be in the same spot elementalist is. Chronomancer was overnerfed, especially as a support spec.

Druid spirit nerfs knocked out as a contender for 5 man gameplay in fractals, and HB is severely overshadowing other supports. Renegade doesn't have competition because no other class provides alacrity reliably with as much utility and similar DPS. Alacrity mirage cannot maintain 100% good alacrity uptime solo with current stat combo limitations (which is why you bring 2 of them in condi specific bosses), lacks CC, and is only attractive in long condi biased encounters with no short phases or target switching.

Power quickness scrapper has surfaced as a good alternative to quickbrand, but that is irrelevant in fractals since healbrand already provides quickness and the exposed bar penalizes power classes now.

The fact is, boons remain an overpowered form of utility compared to other class themed utilities, and some classes fart them out far more than others.

Necromancer utility was supposed to contrast boons with debuff conditions (which is why they had little access to boons), so was mesmer, but with the breakbar debuff conditions became worthless outside mediocre breakbar damage.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Zenith.7301