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Suggestion: Join public game for Fractals option


cesmode.4257

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So we have strikes and dragon response missions where you can select 'Join Public Game' or 'Join private'.  Can we have an option for joining a public game for fractals as well, at least for the daily fractals?  

I'd imagine it wouldnt be a tall order to make the various daily fractal options unavailable unless you have the minimum agony resistance requirement.

 

What this fixes is issues looking for group.  I often find that I sign on a few hours after nightly reset or in the AM and look for a fractal group, I cannot find one.  It seems most people get them done at reset within the first hour or two and it just becomes a hassle.

 

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3 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

Er when do you play normally.

If you through up a T4 Dailies + Recs group in LFG ive yet to have an issue getting it filled, and this at 1pm est, when everyone is usually working.

Usually now and around 11pm or 12am est.  I cant ffind a group unless Im on at 9 or 9:30pm around reset...wait too long and groups are sparse.

 

And even if groups werent sparse, I dont see the harm it making it easier.  We have these soft LFG systems for DRM and strikes, why not for fractals.

 

 

Edited by cesmode.4257
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3 minutes ago, moony.5780 said:

I think that sounds cool 🙂 Best would be like PvP, so u can do something else while waiting for the group to get full.

I think so too.  Obviously, the fractal cant begin until you have a group unlike DRMs.

 

I floated this idea when fractals first came out YEARS ago.  Anet seemed to be resistant to the idea of matchmaking, but now they have a psuedo system in place for other game modes.  Doesnt make sense to keep it from fractals.  I dont understand this need for gaming communities to shy away from Quality of Life improvements and lowering the barrier to entry for certain pieces of content.  A lot of us were active players during Vanilla WoW, for example, and while we look back with rose tinted glasses, it was often a freaking chore to do anything with a group.  

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2 minutes ago, cesmode.4257 said:

A lot of us were active players during Vanilla WoW, for example, and while we look back with rose tinted glasses, it was often a freaking chore to do anything with a group.  

 

Going by retail WoWs popularity versus classic WoWs popularity it seems that years and years of "improvements" didn't improve the gaming experience all that much. What a strange example to use.

 

Yes, there are automated matchmaking systems in other parts of this game. Didn't do those areas all to well too. 🤷‍♂️

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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2 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Going by retail WoWs popularity versus classic WoWs popularity it seems that years and years of "improvements" didn't improve the gaming experience all that much. What a strange example to use.

 

Yes, there are automated matchmaking systems in other parts of this game. Didn't do those areas all to well too. 🤷‍♂️

Respectfully, I disagree.  Theres a reason why, until very recently, WoW has been unchallenged in the MMO market in terms of player concurrency and $$ to its dev.  When it launched, MMOs were still a rather new concept but it was a very playable game on lower end machines.  When TBC came out, they also released LFG eventually which lowered barrier to entry for a lot of content and they have expanded on this throughout the years making more content accessible, and thus grew their game, thus funding their game for future content.  WOTLK took this to another level and became one of their most successful expansions ever.

 

Your gaming experience and mileage might vary and you may not view it as an improvement to experience but subscribers and $$, it was a game changer.  Theres no arguing that and considering this, its not a strange example to use when you look at where it was and where it went with these changes.

 

 

5 minutes ago, moony.5780 said:

I also think its good to keep both systems. Because in LFG people can look for specific people, and kick if they do not fit the requirement. Also it would be necessary to be able to join as 2 or 3 people who are already in a group.

Agreed.  This is also a slight toxic area of the game.  You get into a group currently, get booted if you dont have the right class they want. Or sometimes you die to one or two mechanics, they boot especially if the other members are buds.  Happens all the time.  Let them continue to use LFG tool as is, open it up a bit more by allowing us to join public groups without issue.  

 

I personally think fractals are very fun, challenging, rewarding.  But I dont want to spend 20 minutes looking for a group. 

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10 minutes ago, cesmode.4257 said:

Respectfully, I disagree.  Theres a reason why, until very recently, WoW has been unchallenged in the MMO market in terms of player concurrency and $$ to its dev.  When it launched, MMOs were still a rather new concept but it was a very playable game on lower end machines.  When TBC came out, they also released LFG eventually which lowered barrier to entry for a lot of content and they have expanded on this throughout the years making more content accessible, and thus grew their game, thus funding their game for future content.  WOTLK took this to another level and became one of their most successful expansions ever.

 

Your gaming experience and mileage might vary and you may not view it as an improvement to experience but subscribers and $$, it was a game changer.  Theres no arguing that and considering this, its not a strange example to use when you look at where it was and where it went with these changes.

You can disagree all you want. Statistics do not lie. Statistics show that WoW has been on a decline for years. It's peak was at the beginning of WotLK.

 

Now was this only due to matchmaking? No.

 

To argue though that Classic versus retail is an argument FOR matchmaking, when classic servers destroyed retail WoW popularity wise (and likely prevented the games even earlier decline) is very skewed.

 

Classic WoW did not have matchmaking. It did great. Burning Crusade did not have dungeon finder. It too did great. In fact dungeon finder and automated grouping was added with Ice Crown Citadel, ironically THE patch which graph wise was the peak of the games player engagement. One could literally make the argument that WoW started its decline the moment the dungeon finder was added (though I would not go as far given I personally believe it was a mix of well meant convenience and streamlining changes on top of automated grouping which are to blame, some of which were introduced already with BC).

 

Quote

Agreed.  This is also a slight toxic area of the game.  You get into a group currently, get booted if you dont have the right class they want. Or sometimes you die to one or two mechanics, they boot especially if the other members are buds.  Happens all the time.  Let them continue to use LFG tool as is, open it up a bit more by allowing us to join public groups without issue.  

 

I personally think fractals are very fun, challenging, rewarding.  But I dont want to spend 20 minutes looking for a group. 

 

Even more of a reason NOT to automate this. Automation leads to individuals putting in less care, work or effort. A perfect breeding ground for even more toxicity.

 

There is a reason that after over 7 years, people still mostly greet and say thank you and bye when joining and leaving fractal groups, no matter how superficial it might be. Take a guess which of those were the first to go with dungeon finder. Let me help: both.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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While I personally don't mind the option, I don't see it going anywhere either. 

Very much so like public strikes, it will likely be dead almost on arrival, with random groups getting thrown together either not covering necessary roles or overlapping them, wildly varying skill levels and people wiping and insta leaving at any issue to quick join another group and repeat, as hot join reduces the sunk cost of finding/putting together groups. 

 

43 minutes ago, cesmode.4257 said:

Usually now and around 11pm or 12am est.  I cant ffind a group unless Im on at 9 or 9:30pm around reset...wait too long and groups are sparse.

 

And even if groups werent sparse, I dont see the harm it making it easier.  We have these soft LFG systems for DRM and strikes, why not for fractals.

 

 

The best solution to not finding a group on LFG at those times (or in general) is to make a group yourself.

Many people just stare at the LFG expecting someone else to take the initiative to make a group suited to their needs rather than making one on their own. 

If there simply aren't enough player's playing at those times (which is usually the case, GW2 is oddly dead at non primtime hours), a random join won't change that either - in fact it would make the issue worse by splitting the few active players at those hours between those waiting in LFG and those waiting in hot join queues. 

 

Convenience features (such as auto grouping, Waypoint's everywhere, etc.) always sound good on paper, but they always come at the cost of actual game engagement and player connections, and usually increased toxicity. 

 

No group finding whatsoever might be tedious, but it leads to players banding together in strong and active guilds and social circles playing together in chosen, friendly environments. 

LFG is much quicker and easier, but requires gating to account for wildly varying skill levels of the general playerbase and lacks the building of long term connections between players.

Hot join/auto que, while in theory the easiest and quickest way to group, leads to zero engagement and a world where other players largely aren't even recognized as other people anymore, and with no investment to finding or forming groups are a breeding ground for leavers, leechers and toxicity. 

 

There is always a cost.

Edited by Asum.4960
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18 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You can disagree all you want. Statistics do not lie. Statistics show that WoW has been on a decline for years. It's peak was at the beginning of WotLK.

 

Now was this only due to matchmaking? No.

 

To argue though that Classic versus retail is an argument FOR matchmaking, when classic servers destroyed retail WoW popularity wise (and likely prevented the games even earlier decline) is very skewed.

 

Classic WoW did not have matchmaking. It did great. Burning Crusade did not have dungeon finder. It too did great. In fact dungeon finder and automated grouping was added with Ice Crown Citadel, ironically THE patch which graph wise was the peak of the games player engagement. One could literally make the argument that WoW started its decline the moment the dungeon finder was added (though I would not go as far given I personally believe it was a mix of well meant convenience and streamlining changes on top of automated grouping which are to blame, some of which were introduced already with BC).

 

 

Even more of a reason NOT to automate this. Automation leads to individuals putting in less care, work or effort. A perfect breeding ground for even more toxicity.

 

There is a reason that after over 7 years, people still mostly greet and say thank you and bye when joining and leaving fractal groups, no matter how superficial it might be. Take a guess which of those were the first to go with dungeon finder. Let me help: both.

 

Dungeon finder came out with 2.0.1, TBC.  

Classic did great, TBC did better, WOTLK was nearly the pinnacle for WoW.  Biggest changes?  Making more content accessible to more players.  

 

Yes, WoW has been on the decline for many years but again, in terms of player concurrancy etc, its the most played MMO (until recently).  Why the decline?  It probably has something to do with being out of touch with its player base and refusing to innovate (and keep its own innovations instead of making them expansion specific) like it did back in the earlier expansions.

Edited by cesmode.4257
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@Cyninja.2954I can see we are at a stalemate and thats good!  Let me end by asking, if they added this option for people and kept the current system in place so that you can still manually form groups, does this impact you negatively in any way?  Does opening up content for more people and potentially making it more enjoyable impact you from running fractals the way you would want to?  

 

I dont see how doing this would matter to people that dont want to partake in it.  

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12 minutes ago, cesmode.4257 said:

 

Dungeon finder came out with 2.0.1, TBC.  

Classic did great, TBC did better, WOTLK was nearly the pinnacle for WoW.  Biggest changes?  Making more content accessible to more players.  

 

Yes, WoW has been on the decline for many years but again, in terms of player concurrancy etc, its the most played MMO (until recently).  Why the decline?  It probably has something to do with being out of touch with its player base and refusing to innovate (and keep its own innovations instead of making them expansion specific) like it did back in the earlier expansions.

 

https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Dungeon_Finder

 

Quote

Dungeon Finder is the "Looking for Dungeon" (LFD) system Blizzard introduced in patch 3.3.0. It was made the default mode of the Dungeon Finder window and integrated with the Raid Finder and Scenario Finder in Patch 5.0.4. It is only used for 5-man dungeons, not raids or groups in general for high-level quests. The Dungeon Finder selects players to form a party from all servers in the battlegroup of the current realm, so there need not be a full group of players on one specific realm.

 

https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_3.3.0

 

Quote

Patch 3.3.0 is a content patch that included Icecrown Citadel as a new raid instance as well as three 5-player dungeon wings in the Frozen Halls.

 

I was going by what the wiki stated given my memory of exact implementation was foggy given it has been years for me.

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10 minutes ago, cesmode.4257 said:

@Cyninja.2954I can see we are at a stalemate and thats good!  Let me end by asking, if they added this option for people and kept the current system in place so that you can still manually form groups, does this impact you negatively in any way?  Does opening up content for more people and potentially making it more enjoyable impact you from running fractals the way you would want to?  

 

I dont see how doing this would matter to people that dont want to partake in it.  

 

There are enough articles which are critical enough of the positive and negative effects of automated systems for player grouping. In short: auto grouping is convenient and leads to anti social behavior.

 

First off, they would HAVE to leave in the current system, given no automated system could currently cover the necessity or desire for specific roles unless the grouping system is so superficial, that one could leave it out to begin with.

 

Second, we have auto-grouping systems in this game for significantly easier content than higher tier fractals. Some players advised against those systems be implemented. The systems see almost no use and come with their own issues (not having any control over the group for one which lead to players being stuck in a group/squad against their will for example). I see no reason to repeat the mistakes made with strikes and DRMs in another type of content once again.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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Long time fractal player here
I can't say I've ever had problems getting groups at 11 p.m./12.a.m.  EST in the last several months. There are some dailies where it takes longer to get groups (today's sirens nobody wants to heal). But if there is nothing in the t4 lfg it will fill up if you make one.

T3 has the most issues with getting groups, you can end up waiting a very long time for a group to full up here. T2 used to be hard to get groups for but the fractal bonus events have brought in a lot more players into fractals and these groups don't take long to form and fill up. I don't think T1 has problems but I usually stay out of it.

I'm not against there being a matchmaking system but it's just not going to work well for T4. Especially not for CMs. I can't see a group of completely random players doing t4 sirens without rage quitting. Some instabs are going to make groups fall apart when they reach particular fractals and you'll have a lot of people leaving groups soon after they form if there is no hb.

All that said there is no reason the LFG can't coexist with a public match making system. It's going to have a lot of shortcomings that there won't be a work around for. Part of it is the intense nature of higher level fractals and the very tight group compositions needed for clears that don't take 2-3 hours.

I won't deny there are toxic players in fractals, you meet more of them the closer you are to reset. The practical application of matchmaker/duty finder for this content is going to be limited though and I think it's important that the implementation of one be seen as an option and not a "solution" that improves  upon the current system.

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Yeah i love that .

In Dungeosn , that are  for a dire need for a  Restart , would be appreciated especially .

 

We could make also that you can't type  customs LFG messages like in WoW :

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content/10077-Patch-9-1-5-PTR-Build-39977?

"Group Finder Improvements - Accounts now require an attached Battle.net Authenticator to post custom text."

(or lets program it that if you haven't linked your account in GW2 Armory  , you can't see them by default)

 

 

Edited by Solitude.2097
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