Thief gets so much hate that's is honestly frightening.

[Teratus.2859]

8 hours ago, saerni.2584 said:

When they come out of stealth hit them and hit them hard. Ranged abilities have an advantage as do channeled abilities. Really this isn't hard. Not sure why you think them getting close prevents skillful use of ranged skills. I use ranged weapons primarily and a melee thief is pretty exposed in my experience. 
 

You also seem to think mobility isn't possible—when I see some people kiting out thieves strategically. You don't need to outrun the Thief completely—you need enough mobility to avoid some of their chasing abilities before counter attacking. What you are missing is the flow between your resources and your opponents resources and the gap that is the opening.
 

Don't spam. Use your ranged abilities when they come out of stealth. Kite out their base mobility skills so they become less mobile in the medium term. AoE selectively and not with abandon. 
 

I can't teach someone how to play but that is the insight I can offer.

Yes, aware of the channel advantage over stealth although it's not so easy to land as some claim it to be.

Ranged skills get very glitchy in close range as well, especially ones that focus on a target like channel skills do.
God knows how many times i've triggered a ranged skill in close range only for the skill to instantly go on a short CD without doing anything.
This is not exclusive to Competitive either, happens in PvE too.
If the target is too close (like right on top of you) the skill won't activate properly and best case goes on a short CD, worst case goes on full CD and is utterly wasted.

This occurs when the game gets screwed up on positioning, registering the target on top of you, or you directly under it but is showing you visually that said target is a little bit in front of you.
This is a game flaw though, but the way thieves tend to fight in close range takes advantage of this little flaw when the target is running a ranged weapon.

Thieves love to force you into a combat style if they know you carry a ranged weapon as well.
If you're range they go melee, if you go melee they go range or just avoid you till you swap to range again.
Every thief knows that if they keep away and make you swap to a range weapon they can just stealth, get in your face and have 9 seconds to freely wail on you while you're ability to retaliate is limited or non existent.

Every other class in the game remains on screen, you can see what they are doing and that gives you the ability to adapt accordingly.
Thieves hide behind invisibility constantly to make every fight as one sided and cheap in their favour as possible.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[Burial.1958]

18 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Yes, aware of the channel advantage over stealth although it's not so easy to land as some claim it to be.

Ranged skills get very glitchy in close range as well, especially ones that focus on a target like channel skills do.
God knows how many times i've triggered a ranged skill in close range only for the skill to instantly go on a short CD without doing anything.
This is not exclusive to Competitive either, happens in PvE too.
If the target is too close (like right on top of you) the skill won't activate properly and best case goes on a short CD, worst case goes on full CD and is utterly wasted.

This occurs when the game gets screwed up on positioning, registering the target on top of you, or you directly under it but is showing you visually that said target is a little bit in front of you.
This is a game flaw though, but the way thieves tend to fight in close range takes advantage of this little flaw when the target is running a ranged weapon.

Thieves love to force you into a combat style if they know you carry a ranged weapon as well.
If you're range they go melee, if you go melee they go range or just avoid you till you swap to range again.
Every thief knows that if they keep away and make you swap to a range weapon they can just stealth, get in your face and have 9 seconds to freely wail on you while you're ability to retaliate is limited or non existent.

Every other class in the game remains on screen, you can see what they are doing and that gives you the ability to adapt accordingly.
Thieves hide behind invisibility constantly to make every fight as one sided and cheap in their favour as possible.

 

"Every other class". Thief is not the only class which has stealth. 

[Teratus.2859]

1 hour ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

 

"Every other class". Thief is not the only class which has stealth. 

It's the only one that can be in an out of it constantly.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

2 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

It's the only one that can be in an out of it constantly.

Yes, because rangers have never been known to use stealth to limit their opponent's options. 

[Teratus.2859]

17 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Yes, because rangers have never been known to use stealth to limit their opponent's options. 

Yes at one point they could, and it was unintended and nerfed into the ground to stop them from doing so.

Reason being because it make Rangers broken and cheap as hell, and most people agreed with this nerf, except of course those who actively wanted to abuse it with cheap builds.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[saerni.2584]

3 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Yes, aware of the channel advantage over stealth although it's not so easy to land as some claim it to be.

Ranged skills get very glitchy in close range as well, especially ones that focus on a target like channel skills do.
God knows how many times i've triggered a ranged skill in close range only for the skill to instantly go on a short CD without doing anything.
This is not exclusive to Competitive either, happens in PvE too.
If the target is too close (like right on top of you) the skill won't activate properly and best case goes on a short CD, worst case goes on full CD and is utterly wasted.

This occurs when the game gets screwed up on positioning, registering the target on top of you, or you directly under it but is showing you visually that said target is a little bit in front of you.
This is a game flaw though, but the way thieves tend to fight in close range takes advantage of this little flaw when the target is running a ranged weapon.

Thieves love to force you into a combat style if they know you carry a ranged weapon as well.
If you're range they go melee, if you go melee they go range or just avoid you till you swap to range again.
Every thief knows that if they keep away and make you swap to a range weapon they can just stealth, get in your face and have 9 seconds to freely wail on you while you're ability to retaliate is limited or non existent.

Every other class in the game remains on screen, you can see what they are doing and that gives you the ability to adapt accordingly.
Thieves hide behind invisibility constantly to make every fight as one sided and cheap in their favour as possible.

As a Thief I use the core mechanics of my Profession, many of which come from using stealth. Not sorry, no matter how much you try to turn this into some kind of moral failing of Thief players.
 

So if you go ranged they go melee? And if you go melee then they go ranged. And that gives the Thief an unfair advantage? That's strange, given that you basically say the Thief has an advantage because they can ranged against melee and then say you don't have the advantage when the roles are reversed and you are the ranged against melee. Why is it only Thief has the advantage here? 
 

Ranger has 1) longbow burst at 1200+, with reveal, interrupt, and AoE non-target damage, 2) Greatsword with mobility, block, and melee damage, 3) access to stealth through pets and longbow, 4) high levels of personal sustain and ability to gain damage immunity. 
 

You have the tools. If ranged damage is so hard to apply, then when they range you do the things to them you claim are so OP when done to your ranged attacks. 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

27 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Yes at one point they could, and it was unintended and nerfed into the ground to stop them from doing so.

Reason being because it make Rangers broken and cheap as hell, and most people agreed with this nerf, except of course those who actively wanted to abuse it with cheap builds.

Except for the fact that they can still do it, and it's still not really a problem even when they do. 

[Teratus.2859]

5 minutes ago, saerni.2584 said:

As a Thief I use the core mechanics of my Profession, many of which come from using stealth. Not sorry, no matter how much you try to turn this into some kind of moral failing of Thief players.

This has nothing to do with "morals", It's entirely about the fact that a class you like has too much access to a specific mechanic that is far too broken and cheap because it lacks viable counters.

The simple fact that most thief players either don't understand or actively ignore in these kinds of discussions is this.
People don't like how your class is designed and they don't like being harassed by annoying troll builds that abuse a cheap mechanic, it ruins the game for them.

Those things combine to one simple truth.. they don't want to play with you!!
But they don't have a choice in the matter, and normally that would be fine in competitive games.. comes with the territory.
But to rub salt in the wound even more is that the same class that they can't stand in the first place can also opt out of any fight it doesn't want to be in.. something that they cannot do against you, the one class they actually wish they could.

And that is why you get so much abusive and hateful messages from people, they are sick of dealing with your class and it's badly implemented mechanics.
It is not the fault of you and people who like playing the thief, hell you're practically forced into this kind of playstyle at this point, It is a fault with the class itself.
And that's why you get people saying that thief needs to be overhauled or even that it should be completely removed from the game lol

5 minutes ago, saerni.2584 said:

So if you go ranged they go melee? And if you go melee then they go ranged. And that gives the Thief an unfair advantage? That's strange, given that you basically say the Thief has an advantage because they can ranged against melee and then say you don't have the advantage when the roles are reversed and you are the ranged against melee. Why is it only Thief has the advantage here? 

The advantage always goes to the one who swaps last thanks to the cooldown.
Thief is exceptionally too good at forcing others to swap to deal with their nonsense.
And thanks again to stealth, you don't really have the ability to do this to them, most of the time you can make them run away at best resulting in the fight being nothing but a waste of your time.
 

5 minutes ago, saerni.2584 said:

Ranger has 1) longbow burst at 1200+, with reveal, interrupt, and AoE non-target damage, 2) Greatsword with mobility, block, and melee damage, 3) access to stealth through pets and longbow, 4) high levels of personal sustain and ability to gain damage immunity. 

As said in another post, range weapons are buggy in melee range a lot of the time and do not activate skills properly.
And don't even go there with Ranger's reveal.. it's easily the most useless form of it in the game.
Can't even use it when the thief is stealthed either.

It has to be used to prevent stealth and in doing so makes an obvious setup obvious and if the thief really wants to they can also just remove it anyway leaving Ranger with no stealth counter at all.
As soon as a Ranger puts SicEm on you, you teleport into melee and play evade to run down the reveal.
This can also force the ranger to swap to melee and then you can just blink away and run down the timer safe from a rapid fire as well.
Rapidfire is easily dodged as well even in stealth, especially if it's quickness boosted.

The only useful skill on Ranger LB is the Barrage if used defensively, but unless you have stability you're probably going to be yanked out of it or CC'd and AoE'd so meh, it's not so great.
LB has no real place in WvW outside of assaulting keeps and towers etc, it's not very good against actual players.



 

[Teratus.2859]

29 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Except for the fact that they can still do it, and it's still not really a problem even when they do. 

Nowhere near as well as they could before and not to the extremes the thief can.
They also have nowhere near the mobility either.

[Burial.1958]

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

This has nothing to do with "morals", It's entirely about the fact that a class you like has too much access to a specific mechanic that is far too broken and cheap because it lacks viable counters.

The simple fact that most thief players either don't understand or actively ignore in these kinds of discussions is this.
People don't like how your class is designed and they don't like being harassed by annoying troll builds that abuse a cheap mechanic, it ruins the game for them.

Those things combine to one simple truth.. they don't want to play with you!!
But they don't have a choice in the matter, and normally that would be fine in competitive games.. comes with the territory.
But to rub salt in the wound even more is that the same class that they can't stand in the first place can also opt out of any fight it doesn't want to be in.. something that they cannot do against you, the one class they actually wish they could.

And that is why you get so much abusive and hateful messages from people, they are sick of dealing with your class and it's badly implemented mechanics.
It is not the fault of you and people who like playing the thief, hell you're practically forced into this kind of playstyle at this point, It is a fault with the class itself.
And that's why you get people saying that thief needs to be overhauled or even that it should be completely removed from the game lol

The advantage always goes to the one who swaps last thanks to the cooldown.
Thief is exceptionally too good at forcing others to swap to deal with their nonsense.
And thanks again to stealth, you don't really have the ability to do this to them, most of the time you can make them run away at best resulting in the fight being nothing but a waste of your time.
 

As said in another post, range weapons are buggy in melee range a lot of the time and do not activate skills properly.
And don't even go there with Ranger's reveal.. it's easily the most useless form of it in the game.
Can't even use it when the thief is stealthed either.

It has to be used to prevent stealth and in doing so makes an obvious setup obvious and if the thief really wants to they can also just remove it anyway leaving Ranger with no stealth counter at all.
As soon as a Ranger puts SicEm on you, you teleport into melee and play evade to run down the reveal.
This can also force the ranger to swap to melee and then you can just blink away and run down the timer safe from a rapid fire as well.
Rapidfire is easily dodged as well even in stealth, especially if it's quickness boosted.

The only useful skill on Ranger LB is the Barrage if used defensively, but unless you have stability you're probably going to be yanked out of it or CC'd and AoE'd so meh, it's not so great.
LB has no real place in WvW outside of assaulting keeps and towers etc, it's not very good against actual players.



 

 I hear also alot of peoples who are sick of these pew pew Rangers standing of a wall and burst peoples down or leeching in a 1vs1 (The arrows even hit when u are in stealth). I also hear peoples who are sick of all those Necros in every modi. I also hear peoples who are sick of all those Guardians which can block every dmg and heal. I also hear peoples who are sick of those engis who spamm their grenades and instagib peoples with it. I also hear peoples who are sick of mesmers because of stealth, blinks, Clones and when they running full condi. And so on....

 

Thief has no place in any mode outside of roaming or +1 decap bot. It is one of the least played class in the whole game. Yesterday we where 5 Thiefs in a zerg and peoples where complete hilarious + joking about it and tell us that we have to play a proper class instead and that they never see so many thiefs once. What tells you that?

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Grebcol.5984

[Teratus.2859]

21 hours ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

Thief has no place in any mode outside of roaming or +1 decap bot. It is one of the least played class in the whole game. Yesterday we where 5 Thiefs in a zerg and peoples where complete hilarious + joking about it and tell us that we have to play a proper class instead and that they never see so many thiefs once. What tells you that?

If you've read any of my past posts here and in other threads you'd know that this is something i've brought up myself.

That's exactly what I'm talking about when I say that thief is held back by stealth.
It's because stealth is so broken, cheap and so easily abusable that thief is effectively crippled in basically every other area it could and should be good at.

That is why thief is regarded as nothing but a troll class and why everyone hates it so much.
I have two thieves myself and frankly the only fun I have with them is in PvE where I can actually play more than some stealth spamming cheap build.

 

[felix.2386]

pro tip: try multi classing, and you will start to hate thief too, as all the thief mains who started multi classing did.

[Graeaw.6329]

58 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

pro tip: try multi classing, and you will start to hate thief too, as all the thief mains who started multi classing did.

Thank you for speaking for everbody who plays more than one class, I'm sure all those people share your opinion.
Yes. I am one of those people. No I don't hate thief. I gotta say though, when I seriously started playing guardian, I literally laughed out loud over the things they get handed to them just for existing (compared to a thief, that is).

[Burial.1958]

7 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

If you've read any of my past posts here and in other threads you'd know that this is something i've brought up myself.

That's exactly what I'm talking about when I say that thief is held back by stealth.
It's because stealth is so broken, cheap and so easily abusable that thief is effectively crippled in basically every other area it could and should be good at.

That is why thief is regarded as nothing but a troll class and why everyone hates it so much.
I have two thieves myself and frankly the only fun I have with them is in PvE where I can actually play more than some stealth spamming cheap build.

 

 

Then u don't understand the archetype of a rogue Class. I don't care who hates me because i play this class.

[shrew.3059]

7 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

pro tip: try multi classing, and you will start to hate thief too, as all the thief mains who started multi classing did.

 

I have, and I don’t. Your move.

Pro tip: “all” doesn’t mean what you think it means.

[RyuDragnier.9476]

8 hours ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

 

Then u don't understand the archetype of a rogue Class. I don't care who hates me because i play this class.

In almost every MMO I've ever played, a rogue type cannot re-enter stealth mid-combat without having to use a move on a long cooldown (usually 1-2m long). In return the rogue knows they go all in and make the first move from stealth, or they die. GW2 is one of the only MMOs I've seen that allows such liberal use of stealth. Perhaps it's you who doesn't understand the archetype and needs to play other MMOs.

[Graeaw.6329]

3 hours ago, RyuDragnier.9476 said:

In almost every MMO I've ever played, a rogue type cannot re-enter stealth mid-combat without having to use a move on a long cooldown (usually 1-2m long). In return the rogue knows they go all in and make the first move from stealth, or they die. GW2 is one of the only MMOs I've seen that allows such liberal use of stealth. Perhaps it's you who doesn't understand the archetype and needs to play other MMOs.

In those "other" MMO-s, the rogue also probably has the tools to realistically all-in and kill someone in one go.

 

By the time I'd chew my way through the passive and active defenses of some classes, I'd probably die to their autoattacks.

 

P.s.: in WoW you can restealth every 7 or so seconds, so long you kite your enemy to be out of combat

P.s. 2: the kill time in GW2 is drastically lower than in some other mmo-s, so you can't really compare the skill cooldowns between games.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Graeaw.6329

[felix.2386]

On 10/24/2021 at 5:10 PM, shrew.3059 said:

 

I have, and I don’t. Your move.

Pro tip: “all” doesn’t mean what you think it means.

you did as in you played other classes 2 times? oh and manage to climb to the same rating as your thief and start talking.

not silver rating tho, at least plat to have an opinion that's worth taking.

i know that all gold thieves are garbage, not normal garbage, but a garbage thief/mes is more garbage then garbage of other classes in garbage tier.

 

pro tip: by "all" i didn't count all the bot tier player that's below plat. sorry

Edited October 26, 2021 by felix.2386

[shrew.3059]

3 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

you did as in you played other classes 2 times? oh and manage to climb to the same rating as your thief and start talking.

not silver rating tho, at least plat to have an opinion that's worth taking.

i know that all gold thieves are garbage, not normal garbage, but a garbage thief/mes is more garbage then garbage of other classes in garbage tier.

 

pro tip: by "all" i didn't count all the bot tier player that's below plat. sorry

 

You sound reasonable and experienced. You’ve convinced me.

[Graeaw.6329]

4 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

you did as in you played other classes 2 times? oh and manage to climb to the same rating as your thief and start talking.

not silver rating tho, at least plat to have an opinion that's worth taking.

i know that all gold thieves are garbage, not normal garbage, but a garbage thief/mes is more garbage then garbage of other classes in garbage tier.

 

pro tip: by "all" i didn't count all the bot tier player that's below plat. sorry

Hey guys, I've Shortbow 5 spammed myself to Plat, I am CLEARLY way above you other garbage people, and my takes are so deep and skillful!

 

The way you have been communicating so far, the only person whose opinion is not worth taking is you.

[Teratus.2859]

On 10/24/2021 at 11:59 PM, Grebcol.5984 said:

 

Then u don't understand the archetype of a rogue Class. I don't care who hates me because i play this class.

I play one in literally every RPG I can lol I love rogue classes.

What I hate is cheap mechanics in competitive game modes that don't have enough counterplay, in this case Stealth.
And I especially hate it when said mechanics are so cheap that they actively hurt the class in every other area which is the case with Gw2.

And for the record, stealth in most games that use the rogue archetype or at least include it's elements, they tend to rely far more or sneaking around and not being seen rather than constantly being invisible.
This is particularly normal in modern 3rd person RPG's and stealth based games where proper Invisibility either doesn't exist or is some kind of late game high end or high cost reward that in some games is even considered a cheat mode lol
(Skyrim, Thief, Metal Gear, Splinter cell.. etc)
But these kinds of games have plenty of build up or alternate mechanics in play usually sound/noise that works against their stealth mechanics so it's not completely broken.

In many older RPG's of the past and also MMO's as RyuDragnier.9476 also brought up, if a rogue class enters into combat their ability to stealth would be disabled until they left combat.
Forcing them to run away using their mobility skills/items etc or use one of their precious few invisibility spells, potions or skills that were mostly designed to help them flee not fight.
And if they choose to use it to fight instead of flee, they would be committed to that decision! a true kill or be killed situation which Gw2's thief does not comply with.

Rogues are all about high mobility, backstabbing, huge damage, stealing and disabling traps/picking locks and are almost always extremely lacking in defenses as a trade off.
The problem with Gw2's thieves is that are completely backwards from this tradition.
The amount of access they have to stealth combine with the superb mobility they have gives them far far FAR!!! to much defensive utility, so much so in fact that it is actively hurting their offensive potential.

This is exactly why I have no issue with thieves in groups managing to single out and assassinate people they pull from the group, this is what rouges are and should be great at doing.
Get in, murder the target as quick as possible and get out.. this is a rogue being rogue.

And like I said before, nobody hates you because you like thief.
They hate how cheap and annoying the thief class is because of a bad mechanic that is far too easy to abuse and lacks good counterplay.

I've said many many times before, I would not have a problem with thieves even having perma stealth access if they made it so that stealth was disabled while the thief is in combat.
They could even make this a general F3 skill to use out of combat only, that would be fine.
AoE stealth skills would also remain but would be used for group stealth only, in combat they would not apply stealth to anyone.

I'd also be willing to give thieves a single invisibility skill that they could use in combat but the thief would have to decide whether to use this skill to flee or risk it on securing a kill, and it would need a very heavy cooldown as well.

If thief was built like that then not only would it justify much needed buffs to various skills and damage etc which many many thief players have been asking for for literal years!
But it would also make Gw2's thief far far more of a traditional rogue archetype than it currently is in Gw2.
It would make them significantly less annoying to fight against as well since they would have to duel and fight skillfully like everyone else has to and they wouldn't be able to abuse stealth constantly in combat which is why everyone hates them in the first place.

You'd still have your mobility, you'd still have your high evasion, you'd be better fighters and you'd still be able to run away every now and again.
The only difference is that you'd have to fight players on even ground for a change.
No more cheesing fights by abusing stealth, that's all.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[Psycoprophet.8107]

On 10/25/2021 at 1:32 AM, RyuDragnier.9476 said:

In almost every MMO I've ever played, a rogue type cannot re-enter stealth mid-combat without having to use a move on a long cooldown (usually 1-2m long). In return the rogue knows they go all in and make the first move from stealth, or they die. GW2 is one of the only MMOs I've seen that allows such liberal use of stealth. Perhaps it's you who doesn't understand the archetype and needs to play other MMOs.

Wow rogue has multiple perma stealth skills, eso literally presses 1 button every 3 secs, in combat or not AND stops rogue from taking damage from adds while cloaked. Play more mmos maybe. Gw2 is one of the few mmos where thief has to commit to actions that use their global resource while having to jump thru hoops such as laying down smoke fields and using finisher skills within them.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Psycoprophet.8107]

It's funny when the threads in a post prove the tittle true, u thief players gotta kno by now the kind of bias, deluded hyperbole comments that's gonna get thrown around by the same ol thief hater/crier's, not sure why u guys are bothering arguing with 0layers that simply hate the rogue archetype design, until it's changed and no longer a rogue these players will still cry, so why bother? Let thread die.

[felix.2386]

4 hours ago, Graeaw.6329 said:

Hey guys, I've Shortbow 5 spammed myself to Plat, I am CLEARLY way above you other garbage people, and my takes are so deep and skillful!

 

The way you have been communicating so far, the only person whose opinion is not worth taking is you.

 

like you said, plat isnt hard, just spam SB 5, i'm clearly not bragging or anything, so why you feel offended?

i literally don't know any skilled or plat thief would get offended by that statement, so when you feel offended, you really don't qualify and don't really fit to share opinion and instead should suck it up go back and play the game and get good.

i never said plat is hard, i said it is minimum requirement to have an opinion and tbh this requirement is very low.

 

you are literally so sensitive about your lack of skill that you fail to see reason.

and blindly defending your "ego" instead going on topic.

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by felix.2386

[shrew.3059]

22 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

i never said plat is hard, i said it is minimum requirement to have an opinion and tbh this requirement is very low.

 

 

Clearly the minimum requirement for an opinion here is access to a keyboard, and little else. I agree with you, that requirement is proving exceptionally low.