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Thief gets so much hate that's is honestly frightening.


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20 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

 

like you said, plat isnt hard, just spam SB 5, i'm clearly not bragging or anything, so why you feel offended?

i literally don't know any skilled or plat thief would get offended by that statement, so when you feel offended, you really don't qualify and don't really fit to share opinion and instead should suck it up go back and play the game and get good.

i never said plat is hard, i said it is minimum requirement to have an opinion and tbh this requirement is very low.

 

you are literally so sensitive about your lack of skill that you fail to see reason.

and blindly defending your "ego" instead going on topic.

 

I don't understand why you are trying to gatekeep people having an opinion when you even admit that the threshold you set is meaningless.

You contradict yourself in the span of two comments and then try to project some kind of ego stuff on me when I make a sarcastic note about your faulty reasoning.

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I've played thief for a long while and good god does this class get a whole ton of hate compared to every other class, and it's always something that has to do with their mobility and stealth. Literal

I think a lot of Thieves (myself included) are not fine with only being able to do one thing really well in a game where other professions enjoy options across multiple game modes. It basically means

The never ending thief hate is because it is inherently frustrating design.  People get frustrated when they percieve a situation as either unfair, or when they feel powerless to change it. 

5 minutes ago, Graeaw.6329 said:

I don't understand why you are trying to gatekeep people having an opinion when you even admit that the threshold you set is meaningless.

You contradict yourself in the span of two comments and then try to project some kind of ego stuff on me when I make a sarcastic note about your faulty reasoning.

lol it is not meaningless, what....it's not hard but it defines from bots to unbots..are you serious? do you make any sense or no.

like if it's not about your ego why do you even feel mad in the first place, like what?...like what i contradict myself with.

Edited by felix.2386
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6 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

lol it is not meaningless, what....it's not hard but it defines from bots to unbots..are you serious? do you make any sense or no.

 

Okay so the new threshold to be qualified for an opinion is... don't a bot!

That actually sounds more realistic.

 

On topic: if we want to "get rid of stealth" balancing also needs to be shifted away from the idea of thieves frequently landing stealth attacks

Edited by Graeaw.6329
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1 minute ago, felix.2386 said:

no, the threshold is not "don't be a bot", but "don't be below plat", the threshold apply to people, not real bots, but people who can't even get out of bot tier.

you are mad because you don't qualify and you share the same tier with the bots, that's why you are mad and trying to hard to justify your lack of skill.

otherwise i don't see how you can be mad.

 

Why are you so obsessed with the notion of me "being mad" ? Can you leave me alone please and start contributing to the discussion? Your only on topic comments so far was basically: play other classes so you'll understand why people hate thieves. What?

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5 minutes ago, Graeaw.6329 said:

Why are you so obsessed with the notion of me "being mad" ? Can you leave me alone please and start contributing to the discussion? Your only on topic comments so far was basically: play other classes so you'll understand why people hate thieves. What?

because you are mad and replied me first about how it's show off and bragging and how it's easy to get plat yet clearly it isnt the case.

 

pro tip: next time don't try to defend yourself with "it's easy to get into certain rank" because it contradict with why you feel offended to begin with. if it's really easy for you to get into certain ranking, you wouldn't feel disqualified and feel offended to begin with.

Edited by felix.2386
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1 hour ago, felix.2386 said:

because you are mad and replied me first about how it's show off and bragging and how it's easy to get plat yet clearly it isnt the case.

 

pro tip: next time don't try to defend yourself with "it's easy to get into certain rank" because it contradict with why you feel offended to begin with. if it's really easy for you to get into certain ranking, you wouldn't feel disqualified and feel offended to begin with.

 

Just to clarify: nobody is “mad” or “offended”, they just wish you’d put a hold on toxic gatekeeping and constructively contribute. And no, it’s not because they don’t meet your imagined requirements, it’s because trying to kick people out of a conversation doesn’t add anything of value.

High sPvP rank doesn’t necessarily translate into being a helpful contributor to game design. If you’re proving anything, it’s that.

Edited by shrew.3059
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The never ending thief hate is because it is inherently frustrating design. 

People get frustrated when they percieve a situation as either unfair, or when they feel powerless to change it. 

Thief, with its god-tier reset potential and safety thanks to shadow arts, subjects players to both situations. 

There is nothing you, the player can do to force things into your favor. It's on the thief to mess up and give you that opportunity. You can neither force a kill on a thief or run from a thief. They are faster than you and they will catch you... 

If they are playing shadow arts deadeye in WvW and they're hell bent on being a nuisance, there's not much you can do to stop them from chasing you down with skirmishing shot, keeping you perma crippled while they have perma swiftness. There isnt' always a LoS spot avaiable if you're stuck in an open field. If you try to engage them they can port away and stealth and slowly kill you as you waste cooldowns fruitlessly trying to close the gap

Feeling powerless to change your current situation is one definition of frustration.

Meanwhile, the thief can repeatedly fish for mistakes and reset indefinately, making the encounter feel unfair, like your opponent holds all the cards. 

That feeling of inequity is the other main cause of frustration. 

That's why thief hate will never end. It has nothing to do with how strong/weak the class is, Thief is subjects you to the two situations that are most known to cause frustration for us humans. So long as that is the case, thief will be the most hated class. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

The never ending thief hate is because it is inherently frustrating design. 

People get frustrated when they percieve a situation as either unfair, or when they feel powerless to change it. 

Thief, with its god-tier reset potential and safety thanks to shadow arts, subjects players to both situations. 

There is nothing you, the player can do to force things into your favor. It's on the thief to mess up and give you that opportunity. You can neither force a kill on a thief or run from a thief. They are faster than you and they will catch you... 

If they are playing shadow arts deadeye in WvW and they're hell bent on being a nuisance, there's not much you can do to stop them from chasing you down with skirmishing shot, keeping you perma crippled while they have perma swiftness. There isnt' always a LoS spot avaiable if you're stuck in an open field. If you try to engage them they can port away and stealth and slowly kill you as you waste cooldowns fruitlessly trying to close the gap

Feeling powerless to change your current situation is one definition of frustration.

Meanwhile, the thief can repeatedly fish for mistakes and reset indefinately, making the encounter feel unfair, like your opponent holds all the cards. 

That feeling of inequity is the other main cause of frustration. 

That's why thief hate will never end. It has nothing to do with how strong/weak the class is, Thief is subjects you to the two situations that are most known to cause frustration for us humans. So long as that is the case, thief will be the most hated class. 

 

This might be the most well-written explanation so far.

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16 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

The never ending thief hate is because it is inherently frustrating design. 

People get frustrated when they percieve a situation as either unfair, or when they feel powerless to change it. 

Thief, with its god-tier reset potential and safety thanks to shadow arts, subjects players to both situations. 

There is nothing you, the player can do to force things into your favor. It's on the thief to mess up and give you that opportunity. You can neither force a kill on a thief or run from a thief. They are faster than you and they will catch you... 

If they are playing shadow arts deadeye in WvW and they're hell bent on being a nuisance, there's not much you can do to stop them from chasing you down with skirmishing shot, keeping you perma crippled while they have perma swiftness. There isnt' always a LoS spot avaiable if you're stuck in an open field. If you try to engage them they can port away and stealth and slowly kill you as you waste cooldowns fruitlessly trying to close the gap

Feeling powerless to change your current situation is one definition of frustration.

Meanwhile, the thief can repeatedly fish for mistakes and reset indefinately, making the encounter feel unfair, like your opponent holds all the cards. 

That feeling of inequity is the other main cause of frustration. 

That's why thief hate will never end. It has nothing to do with how strong/weak the class is, Thief is subjects you to the two situations that are most known to cause frustration for us humans. So long as that is the case, thief will be the most hated class. 

 

While i fully agree on it, this is the toolkit Anet gave the thief - you can't blame the thief-players for using it, but that is actually the case.

I mean i also would like to see nerfs too stealth and a compensation in terms of more burstdamage or faster initiative regeneration or more shadowsteps/lower CDs on them.

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Thief isn’t an easy way to win, it’s just an annoying way to not lose. There isn’t enough advantage to get people to reroll, and there is no immediate, easy to access to advantage by rerolling. Hate Guardians and Necros? You could call for nerfs, but easier to just make one. Hate Thieves? Well, easier to hope someone gets rid of them because why would you want to play that?

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5 minutes ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

While i fully agree on it, this is the toolkit Anet gave the thief - you can't blame the thief-players for using it, but that is actually the case.

I mean i also would like to see nerfs too stealth and a compensation in terms of more burstdamage or faster initiative regeneration or more shadowsteps/lower CDs on them.

The Problem is  with that, there are so many blocks, AoEs, Massiv Ranged Bursts in this game this would literally kill the class. You will be simply focused everytime and be a freebag. They had to redesign the whole class and every spec + some weaponsets and that will not happen.

Edited by Grebcol.5984
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30 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Feeling powerless to change your current situation is one definition of frustration.

 

There are lots of things other professions can do to create that feeling, for example, Ranger Rapid Fire. Feeling powerless to change your situation is also how every beginner feels when thrown up against an opponent of vastly superior skill. For whatever reason, being frustrated by a Thief is an unacceptable design flaw, but being deleted almost instantly by another player beyond your attack range is a learn2play moment. 🤷🏻‍♂️

N.B., I don’t think Rapid Fire should be nerfed.

Edited by shrew.3059
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32 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

If you try to engage them they can port away and stealth and slowly kill you as you waste cooldowns fruitlessly trying to close the gap

If they port away, they're also wasting cooldowns.

People understand that about thieves, right? They still have resources that they use up, same as you.

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5 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

If they port away, they're also wasting cooldowns.

People understand that about thieves, right? They still have resources that they use up, same as you.

 

If you see it only from the non-Thief perspective, your opponent is invincible and can kill you whenever they choose, if they so choose. The evidence that this is not the case is that the meta is not Always-Thief.

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10 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

There are lots of things other professions can do to create that feeling, for example, Ranger Rapid Fire. Feeling powerless to change your situation is also how every beginner feels when thrown up against an opponent of vastly superior skill. For whatever reason, being frustrated by a Thief is an unacceptable design flaw, but being deleted almost instantly by another player beyond your attack range is a learn2play moment. 🤷🏻‍♂️

N.B., I don’t think Rapid Fire should be nerfed.

Other professions can create that feeling, yes. 

There's an infinite number of ways that you can create frustrating gameplay. Getting randomly longbow bursted 100-0 off of your mount can certainly feel unfair to some players. Whether or not it is is up for debate, what matters here is what emotions are most likely to come up when this happens to someone. 

Fighting an immortal necromancer who has twice as much health as you while outputting just as much damage creates a feeling of inequity. "I have to try so much harder to kill him while he can just facetank my damage while spamming condis"

But thief is arguably the best class in the game at creating that feeling. That freedom to disengage from any fight they wish, and the inability to kill a thief that does not wish to die are what frustrates players. 

These are intended strengths of the class.

You can definately make the argument that, in the context of conquest, forcing a thief to run from you is considered "winning" since you will have control of the node. Similarly in WvW, forcing a thief to stealth and port to safety will slowly earn you cap credit if you're fighting over a camp. Thief's strengths are also next to worthless in a zerg fight. 

Thief does have it's own weaknesses which keep it balanced in he grand scope of things, but we're not actually discussing balance here. 

Due to the reasons I mentioned in my previous post, thief is especially adept at abusing the way our brains are wired to create the feeling of frustration. So long as that is true, thief will be hated. 

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12 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Thief does have it's own weaknesses which keep it balanced in he grand scope of things, but we're not actually discussing balance here. 

Due to the reasons I mentioned in my previous post, thief is especially adept at abusing the way our brains are wired to create the feeling of frustration. So long as that is true, thief will be hated. 

 

In some of the previous threads of this sort, this distinction is more clearly drawn: “Stealth is balanced, but not fun” versus “Stealth is overpowered, and therefore not fun”. If the question is about why Thieves are hated, your explanation is very persuasive. If the question is whether or not that should be the case… that’s another question perhaps.

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1 hour ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

The Problem is  with that, there are so many blocks, AoEs, Massiv Ranged Bursts in this game this would literally kill the class. You will be simply focused everytime and be a freebag. They had to redesign the whole class and every spec + some weaponsets and that will not happen.

it is unlikely to happen yes, but that is at least a constructive way of thinking. I dont want to say everythings fine, but just taking stealth away, which is what many wants to be the case, efforts a redesign as well since it is an ability where the thief is build around.

It is like taking away Mesmers clones/illusions or elementalists ability to switch between attunements.

 

The discussion about Stealth is okay, but if somebody does not take into account that this step requires to give thief something back in return, then this is only whining and not some kind of feedback, which should be the first priority on the forum.

 

Maybe someone come up with an easy solution, that the devs can take into consideration - but this thread (like most of these kinds) is more like a back and forth of  "hate" and "hate for the haters", which to be honest will resolve nothing.

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3 hours ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

it is unlikely to happen yes, but that is at least a constructive way of thinking. I dont want to say everythings fine, but just taking stealth away, which is what many wants to be the case, efforts a redesign as well since it is an ability where the thief is build around.

It is like taking away Mesmers clones/illusions or elementalists ability to switch between attunements.

 

The discussion about Stealth is okay, but if somebody does not take into account that this step requires to give thief something back in return, then this is only whining and not some kind of feedback, which should be the first priority on the forum.

 

Maybe someone come up with an easy solution, that the devs can take into consideration - but this thread (like most of these kinds) is more like a back and forth of  "hate" and "hate for the haters", which to be honest will resolve nothing.

You're confusing class mechanic with effects right there.
Teef class mechanic is only Steal, Stealth Attack and Initiative, just because some of its traits interact with stealth, it doesn't mean it's a class mechanic, it's not unique like Distortion nor Soothing Mist and many others. Ele traits interact with Swiftness and Protection, but it is not a class mechanic in the slightest.

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1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

You're confusing class mechanic with effects right there.

 

Nope i am not, maybe class mechanic isn the right word you are right, but i never used that term in the beginning.

 

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Teef class mechanic is only Steal, Stealth Attack and Initiative, just because some of its traits interact with stealth, it doesn't mean it's a class mechanic, it's not unique like Distortion nor Soothing Mist and many others. Ele traits interact with Swiftness and Protection, but it is not a class mechanic in the slightest.

 

i think the analogy of the mentioned "effects" is pretty fitting, Mesmer could still use all its "F" abillities without clones, just way weaker. Ele could still use their main attunement but have more downtime on their CDs due to the lacking switch.  So in the end if you would do stuff like this you have to compensate for these changes, and that is exactly you have to do when you would take stealth out of thief.

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5 hours ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

 

Nope i am not, maybe class mechanic isn the right word you are right, but i never used that term in the beginning.

 

 

i think the analogy of the mentioned "effects" is pretty fitting, Mesmer could still use all its "F" abillities without clones, just way weaker. Ele could still use their main attunement but have more downtime on their CDs due to the lacking switch.  So in the end if you would do stuff like this you have to compensate for these changes, and that is exactly you have to do when you would take stealth out of thief.

You do confuse it though still.
Stealth is a something of a special boon, not a class mechanic. All classes can have access to it via blasting smoke fields, few can interact with them via traits, it's like Regeneration, Swiftness, etc. that also have specific classes that interact with these.
Teefs already have broken builds based on Evades only, but they refuse to use it since it's tiny bit more risky than stealth based. 
Compenastion is out of question, because they'll be still strong af with all mobility and evades without stealth, they'll need a rework with traits and stealth attack for sure, but that's it.

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1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

You do confuse it though still.
Stealth is a something of a special boon, not a class mechanic. All classes can have access to it via blasting smoke fields, few can interact with them via traits, it's like Regeneration, Swiftness, etc. that also have specific classes that interact with these.
Teefs already have broken builds based on Evades only, but they refuse to use it since it's tiny bit more risky than stealth based. 
Compenastion is out of question, because they'll be still strong af with all mobility and evades without stealth, they'll need a rework with traits and stealth attack for sure, but that's it.

Sorry mate, but even if you might be right (which i still disagree to) - simply by using "teef" i can't take any of your words seriously.

But since this would be going nowhere we can close our arguement here

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On 10/26/2021 at 4:31 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

The never ending thief hate is because it is inherently frustrating design. 

People get frustrated when they percieve a situation as either unfair, or when they feel powerless to change it. 

Thief, with its god-tier reset potential and safety thanks to shadow arts, subjects players to both situations. 

There is nothing you, the player can do to force things into your favor. It's on the thief to mess up and give you that opportunity. You can neither force a kill on a thief or run from a thief. They are faster than you and they will catch you... 

If they are playing shadow arts deadeye in WvW and they're hell bent on being a nuisance, there's not much you can do to stop them from chasing you down with skirmishing shot, keeping you perma crippled while they have perma swiftness. There isnt' always a LoS spot avaiable if you're stuck in an open field. If you try to engage them they can port away and stealth and slowly kill you as you waste cooldowns fruitlessly trying to close the gap

Feeling powerless to change your current situation is one definition of frustration.

Meanwhile, the thief can repeatedly fish for mistakes and reset indefinately, making the encounter feel unfair, like your opponent holds all the cards. 

That feeling of inequity is the other main cause of frustration. 

That's why thief hate will never end. It has nothing to do with how strong/weak the class is, Thief is subjects you to the two situations that are most known to cause frustration for us humans. So long as that is the case, thief will be the most hated class. 

 

 

Part of the problem. Whats even more of a problem imho at a certain point is key abilities having no telegraph. This is what makes them so good at +1 in every tier. There is just limited room to improve your cd-counting and guessing game.

Edited by schloumou.3982
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On 10/18/2021 at 5:09 AM, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

The funny thing is that a lot of the replies in this thread essentially boil down to "waaaaaaaah, nasty thief doesn't play fair, nerf it nerf it!". It's the rogue class, not playing fair is literally it's archtype and it's job description, so I really don't know what some people expect when they fight one then complain that something about it is unfair. 

Some people cry about thieves pointlessly, and some thieves cry that they actually have to try and play the game.

Life is filled with a variety of different flavors.

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