Thief gets so much hate that's is honestly frightening.

[Vanthian.9267]

18 hours ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

You have set the terms of the debate (“Stealth requires no skill to use”) and offered only your qualifications as proof. Not sure how you expect anyone to debate you when you decide what is and is not true ab initio.

 

Because it isn't a debate and this matter has been settled a long time by actual professionals gamers.  As mentioned, during the alpha, beta and soft launch of this game they all agreed this type of stealth is not healthy for the game, or any MMO for that matter.   Stealth in this game has a low skill floor.  The qualifications have been offered you just chose to ignore the one offered;  the first reason stealth provides a cushion and low skill floor is because it automatically breaks target.  That alone is a top tier effect for a tab targeting game.  Compound that with the easy of access and you can see, just considering that one effect alone, makes it unbalanced.  It wasn't until recently that Anet included this effect in game on different skills.  Unsurprisingly the class that now has the ability to break targeting and has access to stealth is currently considered the single strongest dueling build in the game.  
This is simply a pointless conversation because stealth will not be changed to make the Thief class better.  Your class will remained kitten to appease a mind set.  This is the exact reason sPvP died and Thief was regulated to a +1 role since the game's launch. 

 

16 hours ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

Funny is he has to mentioned all time that he is a GW 1 Veteran. Im a GW 1 Vet too i played GW 1 when it came out (Prophecies). What does this have to do with thief now in Gw 2? Different games.

When Steatlh is so broken and Teef OP so why is it one of the least played classes in the game? I see alot of Guardians and Broken Necros.

Actually read my post before replying because it is obvious you didn't understand it.  I have also never wrote Thief is OP and instead wrote Thief is a joke.  You will always see flavor of the month builds if you every step foot in any type of PvP in any game.  Ironic that you mention Guardian while the heaviest complaint for that class currently in WvW comes about because of a build abusing stealth runes for roaming.  This is a fact I am sure the Thief community will miss. 

[ASP.8093]

1 hour ago, Vanthian.9267 said:

the first reason stealth provides a cushion and low skill floor is because it automatically breaks target.  That alone is a top tier effect for a tab targeting game.

The thing is, GW2 is only *sort of* a tab-targeting game. Melee attacks don't require selected targets, and one of the things people learn when they break into mid-tier play is that they need to be constantly targeting and de-targeting to make the best use of their mobility skills. So ranged builds have the most trouble with target dropping (since their attacks can just fizzle completely without a target), but at least two of the main ranged builds — Ranger and Core Necro — tend to have reasonably strong 1v1 capability against typical thief builds.

(I've made the argument that popping out of stealth should cause you to get re-targeted automatically in the past, but now that I'm a bit less rusty I think it's really the lack of damage floaties that's a bigger UI problem at most skill levels. Having to look at your combat log is just untenable in all but a few very narrow dueling situations.)

Edited September 30, 2021 by ASP.8093

[anduriell.6280]

On 9/3/2021 at 3:17 PM, Krynji.5130 said:

I was reading on a post earlier about Shadowstep pathing (which 4 other classes can do) and how "unfair" it was when they get away. 

 

On 9/3/2021 at 3:17 PM, Krynji.5130 said:

 

Another problem I frequently see get mentioned over the years is how broken thief stealth is. 

This comes out from how spammy the thief is designed, because of the initiative and low CD thief can spam all those effects which makes them very visiblec to other players . Stealth and shadowsteps are very strong mechanics and have them in very low CD can become annoying very fast. 

 

On 9/3/2021 at 3:17 PM, Krynji.5130 said:

 

Thief is one squishy kitten class that only has high damage in small bursts (unless they play marauder then its the other way around), stealth, and mobility. It literally brings nothing else to the table I believe, correct me if i'm wrong.

That is not correct, a marauders thief can have plenty of HP while still deal a good amount of damage. Also high stealth uptime almost on demand and easy access to extreme mobility makes the profession a low hanging fruit and very forgiving if you make mistakes.

If you want to roam the easy bet is using thief. Being able to easily reset the fight so thief can restore the HP easily while not being the same case for skills in CD is an issue in WvW. 

 

Every class is getting projectile hate utilities (even the warrior gets a ranged AoE reflection wall now) i don't see why it can't be the same against stealth, every class having access to plenty of reveals for example. 

 

[shrew.3059]

1 hour ago, Vanthian.9267 said:

Because it isn't a debate and this matter has been settled a long time by actual professionals gamers. 

 

Citation please.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

On 9/30/2021 at 12:38 AM, RyuDragnier.9476 said:

Thieves get hated because stealth. The problem with stealth is just how easy it is to get on a thief. I can throw down a Smokescreen and Evade in it as Daredevil and get Stealth. I can use Pistol 5 and then Dagger 2 through it to get stealth. I can use Dagger 5 to stealth, I can use my heal to get stealth, I can throw down Blinding Powder to get Stealth, I can use Shadow Refuge to get stealth. Stealth is just so easy to get on Thief that it isn't funny, and it isn't exactly fun to play against for some.

Though IMO if they really wanted to take care of the problem, they could just turn Pistol 5 from a Smoke field to a Dark field, eliminating one of the non-utility ways of stealth. The fact that Anet has yet to do it means they probably don't think of stealth as a problem.

Lol which would destroy dp build completely, good idea, how about no. U want less stealth access why not ask for dagger 5 to be changed to a non stealth attack instead.... oh that's right cuz it won't kill a thief build.

This thread needs to be closed as it turned into...as usual just a bunch of thief haters crying about a class that's not ever oppressive or op because they dislike the classes design and chose to not learn how to fight them cuz its harder than simply whining. There are far more dominant and oppressive classes/builds in the game, non of which are thief builds. U wanna improve the game? Cry about those.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Psycoprophet.8107

[shrew.3059]

1 hour ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

This thread needs to be closed as it turned into...as usual just a bunch of thief haters crying about a class that's not ever oppressive or op because they dislike the classes design and chose to not learn how to fight them cuz its harder than simply whining. There are far more dominant and oppressive classes/builds in the game, non 9f which are thief builds. U wanna improve the game? Cry about those.

 

But professional gamers don’t agree so you’re wrong… apparently? But yes, I agree these threads are useless and never get anywhere.

Edited September 30, 2021 by shrew.3059

[BobbyT.7192]

50 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

But professional gamers don’t agree so you’re wrong… apparently? But yes, I agree these threads are useless and never get anywhere.

"Professional gamers" that no longer play, okay.

[Zacchary.6183]

9 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

 

This comes out from how spammy the thief is designed, because of the initiative and low CD thief can spam all those effects which makes them very visiblec to other players . Stealth and shadowsteps are very strong mechanics and have them in very low CD can become annoying very fast. 

 

That is not correct, a marauders thief can have plenty of HP while still deal a good amount of damage. Also high stealth uptime almost on demand and easy access to extreme mobility makes the profession a low hanging fruit and very forgiving if you make mistakes.

If you want to roam the easy bet is using thief. Being able to easily reset the fight so thief can restore the HP easily while not being the same case for skills in CD is an issue in WvW. 

 

Every class is getting projectile hate utilities (even the warrior gets a ranged AoE reflection wall now) i don't see why it can't be the same against stealth, every class having access to plenty of reveals for example. 

 

1.) You realize you regain HP too, right? So you are pretty much complaining about not getting a kill you feel entitled to.

2.) When initiative runs out, thief is useless. Thief spamming skills ad nauseum is a meme inexperienced players use to justify calls for nerfs.

[shrew.3059]

3 hours ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

"Professional gamers" that no longer play, okay.

 

 

Top men, I’m sure.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

On 9/6/2021 at 6:07 AM, Hotride.2187 said:

I've dueled thieves a lot in wvw the last 2-3 months. Prior to that I had 0 respect for the players, thinking their class is broken (in fact I came to the forum to read on what to do about thieves).

I have a lot of respect for good thief players now though (even the ones with a bad personality). The difference between a good thief and an average one is night and day (not to mention a bad one). Yes, the class is strong in 1v1, even in 2v1 or 3v1 (in the wvw setting anyway) if played well. But one misstep and half their HP is gone. Another misstep and they are down.

And honestly they can do nothing else other than that 1v1 in wvw. They have no place in zergs, they don't contribute much in even small scale group fights (e.g. see what happens when they get in melee of an enemy condi bunker group). Their only real place (where they are highly valuable) seems to be spvp. I dunno about raids but in fractals there are almost 0 thieves.

I'm fine with a profession being able to do 1 thing very well.

Actually... Thieves do have a strong contribution to zergs.

 

DD Staff are extremely good at overextending dps. Meaning if you have ever done zerg vs zerg combat most of the times they are just masses spamming abilities onto one another at range. And very rarely is it in melee outside of one side collapsing into a loss already. Because this behavior has so little micromanaging for Commanders, zerg structures tends to be very inflexible with no room for oddities or distractions. Even if the commander is good at micromanaging - this still puts a strain on the opposing zerg as individual players aren't exactly reliable.

 

Where thief comes in, is they get into the middle or backline of the opposing zerg and lay on some serious damage that outruns the healing fields that they are placing (which is softened by the aoe spam from your zerg). If the players ignore the thief, they will start having people get dropped pretty dang quickly. If they try to kill the thief (who's actually stupidly hard to kill) then they are getting distracted from their roles in the zergs and the lack of dedicated resources causes the zerg to collapse quickly.

Because the abilities that the DD will be using are all combo finishers, and there's bound to be combo fields, the thief actually gets a large number of auras, boons, and useful effects that helps keep them alive.

A squad of 3-4 thieves with dual staves can actually cause a zerg to collapse in less than a minute.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

[Burial.1958]

16 hours ago, Vanthian.9267 said:

Because it isn't a debate and this matter has been settled a long time by actual professionals gamers.  As mentioned, during the alpha, beta and soft launch of this game they all agreed this type of stealth is not healthy for the game, or any MMO for that matter.   Stealth in this game has a low skill floor.  The qualifications have been offered you just chose to ignore the one offered;  the first reason stealth provides a cushion and low skill floor is because it automatically breaks target.  That alone is a top tier effect for a tab targeting game.  Compound that with the easy of access and you can see, just considering that one effect alone, makes it unbalanced.  It wasn't until recently that Anet included this effect in game on different skills.  Unsurprisingly the class that now has the ability to break targeting and has access to stealth is currently considered the single strongest dueling build in the game.  
This is simply a pointless conversation because stealth will not be changed to make the Thief class better.  Your class will remained kitten to appease a mind set.  This is the exact reason sPvP died and Thief was regulated to a +1 role since the game's launch. 

 

Actually read my post before replying because it is obvious you didn't understand it.  I have also never wrote Thief is OP and instead wrote Thief is a joke.  You will always see flavor of the month builds if you every step foot in any type of PvP in any game.  Ironic that you mention Guardian while the heaviest complaint for that class currently in WvW comes about because of a build abusing stealth runes for roaming.  This is a fact I am sure the Thief community will miss. 

 Which professional Gamer said this? 

 

Sure Stealth is low Skillfloor. What is then with Invul, Blocks, Shroud and so on🙃 You never ever played thief. There are Builds on other Classes which can counter thief hard. I play Thief since RLS and i got wrecked by dedicated Players who know how to play against thief. Even Rangers, played well, can wreck thiefs in seconds, when the thief does 1 fault. Gosh play a Trapper Ranger and you can laugh at 80% of the thiefs. 

The only Build which is really broken on Thief is Condi P/D. Because it is a complete Troll Set.  There is so much AoE in the game and the thief get dmg in stealth where other classes with blocks, invul can dance in the fields. 

Ps: There are channeled skills in the game which do not break off when the thief goes into stealth. Rapid Fire for example.

 

In WvWvW you have many places where thiefs got revealed. You even have a mount now. There are also traps. No other class has such hardcounters. 

 

Thief has no place than +1 at the moment. Also in PvE most pick an other class because they are better in the specific jobs. So let them their last spot. 

[kash.9213]

16 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

 

This comes out from how spammy the thief is designed, because of the initiative and low CD thief can spam all those effects which makes them very visiblec to other players . Stealth and shadowsteps are very strong mechanics and have them in very low CD can become annoying very fast. 

 

That is not correct, a marauders thief can have plenty of HP while still deal a good amount of damage. Also high stealth uptime almost on demand and easy access to extreme mobility makes the profession a low hanging fruit and very forgiving if you make mistakes.

If you want to roam the easy bet is using thief. Being able to easily reset the fight so thief can restore the HP easily while not being the same case for skills in CD is an issue in WvW. 

 

Every class is getting projectile hate utilities (even the warrior gets a ranged AoE reflection wall now) i don't see why it can't be the same against stealth, every class having access to plenty of reveals for example. 

 

You're not going to spam Initiative skills due to cost.

You're not going to spam cooldown utilities because, they're on cooldown and 50 isn't a low cooldown, and using up all of our costly initiative on shadowsteps would be dumb. 

The only type of stealth I can think of off the top of my head that is on demand is Blinding Powder utility. High uptime stealth, which you can't do damage from or it breaks your stealth, takes costly initiative or a combo of it and utilities on cooldown. There's no spamming there unless you want to scrap an already dicey chance of getting away.

Thief isn't going to easily reset a fight unless the other player is frustrated and shook or they're complacent. They can reset, but only as easily as the other player allows. I could burst a thief more if I wanted to build for it before they bounce switching out maybe one utility for like a 10 vuln stack with other stuff, but that bar is prime real estate that needs to handle more stuff, so that's a choice. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by kash.9213

[Rezok.2709]

This isn't really an issue specific to thieves in GW2, it's how the rogue / assassin class is treated in all MMORPG's, simply due to the nature of them.

They have huge burst, can turn invisible, and insane mobility. This is the class in most MMORPG's, and it is frustrating to many people to fight against. A big problem is any new / not so good players might find it directly unfair, because they don't know how to fight it. Of course the part they fail to realize is that the stealth and mobility is off-set with them being super squishy - not being hit is their defense, because when they are hit they die. But a good thief vs a bad player means the bad player might feel like the thief is untouchable, all while doing huge crits. A good warrior might also completely overwhelm them, but they have much less evasion, so the bad player will at least be able to land some hits and feel like they did something. Of course the warrior has much more armor and health, so they are nowhere near losing, but it does feel much less frustrating to fight.

[anduriell.6280]

18 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

1.) You realize you regain HP too, right? So you are pretty much complaining about not getting a kill you feel entitled to.

2.) When initiative runs out, thief is useless. Thief spamming skills ad nauseum is a meme inexperienced players use to justify calls for nerfs.

This is glossing over the spamming capabilties of thief  profession. 

 

• Hp aren't cooldowns. Thief has the highest burst in game, being able to delete any profession if their deffensive skills are in cooldown. 
• By baseline initiative is restored much faster  than any cooldown and with the right utilities/traits initiative costs is a non-issue. 
•  
• A Thief in maraurder gear is just over 17K hp which is the same as other medium classes which will regenerate hp when evading, while in stealth, when hitting targets and when stealing. Also  has the highest mobility, stealth, evades and burst in game.  Before any other thief main answers here this is a very known roaming build, for example (but not the only one)

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_SA_D/P_Roamer

 

You are not fooling anybody , everybody already knows how thief plays and that is a spamham profession with the lowest floor in game.

The fact that most thief mains come whining about how weak it is does not any favors to be liked by other players. 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[anduriell.6280]

3 hours ago, Rezok.2709 said:

This isn't really an issue specific to thieves in GW2, it's how the rogue / assassin class is treated in all MMORPG's, simply due to the nature of them.

They have huge burst, can turn invisible, and insane mobility. This is the class in most MMORPG's, and it is frustrating to many people to fight against. 

I completely agree with your point. But i think is important to specificy this only happens in games where the skills are designed around PvE systems but it is used the same in PvP systems. 

 

Stealth in most PVP games is better designed, fairer to other players if you will. Same with the roge profession, it usually is designed as a glass cannon with non-existent deffesive skills or an stealth machine with high but not very frecuent burst. 

In GW2 thief has almost everything by the profession and the PvE stats as systems (it is so easy to reset the fight) fill in for the rest. Thus players would like some systems to be re-designed better for PvP, this is not 2012 anymore where all this was almost unexplored territory. 

 

[shrew.3059]

13 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

You are not fooling anybody , everybody already knows how thief plays and that is a spamham profession with the lowest floor in game.

 

Nope. This is not a thing “everybody knows”. This is a thing you are claiming everybody knows without offering proof that it is a thing everybody knows, or that it would be true even if everybody believed it.

 

If Thief has the lowest skill floor in the game, then it should be the go-to choice for new players since it would allow them to dominate with the least time invested. If it is easy to master but does not let players dominate, this tends to suggest that it is underpowered. But the claim seems to be that it is both easy to master and overpowered, and yet it is one of the least played professions.

 

How is it possible that an I WIN button “everybody knows” is available is simply not used that often? Are we to believe that the community, at large, has just abandoned optimisation? Are we to believe it is easier to deal damage and stay alive on a Thief than a Necro or Guardian? Is that really what you’re claiming?

[anduriell.6280]

1 hour ago, shrew.3059 said:

If Thief has the lowest skill floor in the game, then it should be the go-to choice for new players since it would allow them to dominate with the least time invested. If it is easy to master but does not let players dominate, this tends to suggest that it is underpowered. But the claim seems to be that it is both easy to master and overpowered, and yet it is one of the least played professions.

Well i said it has the lowest floor but i didn't pointed out it also has the highest ceiling if the player is willing to put in the time. That was a mishap from my part.

In opposition to ranger which i have to admit it is a very low floor and ceiling profession. Ranger is almost a flat line when talking about growth progression.  

But we have to admit it is very easy to run thief  to stay alive and get kills as long as the player don't overreach too much. 

It has also the most utilties to survive situations where any other class whould be DOA with very little effort from the player. That makes the class very forgiving. 

 

Quote

How is it possible that an I WIN button “everybody knows” is available is simply not used that often? Are we to believe that the community, at large, has just abandoned optimisation? Are we to believe it is easier to deal damage and stay alive on a Thief than a Necro or Guardian? Is that really what you’re claiming?

Thief has many I WIN button but not more than any other class  that's the truth. The difference is Thief has many I SURVIVE buttons which is what is makes the class so frustating to deal with. Also the ability to reset the fight benefits greatly the profession much more than any other, with reventant in second position. 

If a guardian or a necro fail at their strategy/rotation is the end of the line for them. A thief can be playing around multiple players for hours while at the same time being allowed to mess up multiple times.

You already know the actual window to pin down a thief is very small even when the thief player is completely oblivious on how to play the build. PvE stats and mechanics (stealth, shadow steps pathing, reset hp) fill in  making that window totally inexistent. 
 

Yet I do not bear ill will against the profession, i do think thief is a game style which should be present and i may enjoy it very sparsely . It just happens i think we just need some small adjustments on how  some very specific PvE mechanics work in PVP but not limited to thief.
For example fixing stealth would also fix how trapper runes and celestial shadow interacts in game, and fixing shadowsteps would fix blinks, teleports and other mechanics which are problematic in other professions. 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by anduriell.6280
smol grammar fixes, the forum keeps adding empty lines on new paragraphs

[shrew.3059]

22 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Thief has many I WIN button but not more than any other class  that's the truth. The difference is Thief has many I SURVIVE buttons which is what is makes the class so frustating to deal with. Also the ability to reset the fight benefits greatly the profession much more than any other, with reventant in second position. 

 

This makes a lot more sense to me. And I agree that Ranger does have a mastery curve as you describe, which is why I prefer to play Thief. I would also agree that Stealth does allow a player to disengage more easily than other professions (in PvP that is) but where I am less convinced is that this negatively impacts game balance.

 

I can see how Stealth is frustrating in a way that mechanics like Stability or Protection are not, but this seems to have more to do with the skill required of the opponent. If the argument is that Stealth has a low skill floor compared to the skill floor required to combat it, I would definitely agree; it’s easier to enter Stealth than to learn how to counter it. If this is the issue, I do think there’s a debate to be had. Should applying mechanic X be as difficult as countering mechanic X? Maybe, but this equation needs to consider the impact of mechanic X and how it scales with player skill and other mechanics. Perhaps what we learn is that Stealth is extremely potent in the hands of a skilled player facing a low skill player and we should balance for that.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

2 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

This is glossing over the spamming capabilties of thief  profession. 

 

• Hp aren't cooldowns. Thief has the highest burst in game, being able to delete any profession if their deffensive skills are in cooldown. 
• By baseline initiative is restored much faster  than any cooldown and with the right utilities/traits initiative costs is a non-issue. 
•  
• A Thief in maraurder gear is just over 17K hp which is the same as other medium classes which will regenerate hp when evading, while in stealth, when hitting targets and when stealing. Also  has the highest mobility, stealth, evades and burst in game.  Before any other thief main answers here this is a very known roaming build, for example (but not the only one)

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_SA_D/P_Roamer

 

You are not fooling anybody , everybody already knows how thief plays and that is a spamham profession with the lowest floor in game.

The fact that most thief mains come whining about how weak it is does not any favors to be liked by other players. 

 

Lmao I quit reading at the thief has highest burst in game, ur delesusional. Nuff said.

[Salvatore.3749]

I am kind of late to this thread, I guess we're debating about PvP and WvW. 

From what I read the debate is that thief's stealth is:

1. Easy to access for low skilled players.

2, Too broken because of de-targeting

3. Thief's bursting capabilities in small group gameplay. 

1. I'm going to say number 1 is partially true., but there is a problem with the logic about easy access to stealth. While the stealth mechanic alone is easy to access, that doesn't mean it's always used correctly or efficiently by newer players. If you are using power builds in PvP/WvW, as a thief, one must learn when to pop in and out of stealth or it's wasted and you're dead. It actually takes a lot of time to learn effective positioning to be aggressive - and aggression is thief's primary way to win. Since backstab's power coefficient was nerfed, missing the backstab does not reward high damage and can waste 1 second of stealth from 2 or 3+ seconds of stealth depending on your build. Then the problem comes in as a specialization, you need either critical strikes and trickery or critical strikes and shadow arts for a high dps stealth build. My personal opinion and preference, is to play aggressively, so I would be crazy not to take critical strikes when focusing on backstab critical damage. Otherwise, I can take core thief, sacrifice 3 dodges and better ranged gameplay to focus on backstabs.  Still there are a lot of tradeoffs for focusing on stealth power builds. 2 seconds of stealth to land a backstab on a moving target in pvp/wvw takes practice and skill. To have 4+ seconds is nice, but that comes with a sacrifice in damage unless you take core thief. As of now, there are only 2 viable stealth attacks on core thief and 3 on DE for PvP/WvW. So I don't think it's fair to say thief is a broken class and OP because low skill players can become good at it. When in fact, the stealth mechanic requires so much practice. For effective thief gameplay, the devil's in the details and missing some of these details can be the thief's downfall so I can't say it's actually easy for low-skilled players to use. 
2. De-targeting, if you miss that close ranged backstab, you're screwed. You can be revealed if you hit the front if the target moves. With a 2 second stealth on a power D/D or D/P build, that's a problem, it's even a problem if you have a shadow arts build because you can waste valuable combat time in stealth. Stealth is also easy to counter. If you play thief, and get good at using stealth, you'll recognize something, you can strike around you with auto-attack or aoe and try to keep the thief away from your back. When done right, you either hit the thief, or turn around enough with auto-attack to prevent thief from hitting your back, thus negating your damage. Also, for a Reaper, all they need to use is "Your soul is mine" and that thief isn't getting near their back. Warrior's warhon barrier skill negates almost the entire backstab's damage by providing barrier and boons. Ele, lol, the best at just popping off aoe in seconds and getting out of the way, while the ele may not win the duel, they likely can avoid being one-shotted from the backstab. There are so many ways around detargerting that it shocks me that professional gamers wouldn't recognize such a mechanic. 
3. LOL for number three. I  agree and disagree with some statements. As a thief, I'm playing a condi core theif build right now and my death blossom's burst drops bleeding, poison, and torment on evading attacks. My P/D dagger three is nasty. Repeater is nasty. Sneak attack is nasty. Omg, deadly ambush is wonderful for the increase in bleed damage. And it's sweet to watch other players use up their entire utilities to remove conditions and still get bursted down. But, again it's condi so it takes a couple seconds longer than a bursty reaper. With power, it's a different story. We're talking high damage backstab, heartseeker, and headshot combos. With the condi builds, it's hard to miss attacks, but with power builds, it's possible to miss, and when you do, you are penalized hard as a thief. You lose initiative, you miss, and you likely have to attempt to disengage, which is not always possible in PvP.  Thus, it comes down to an individual build and playstyle. Sneak attack on pistol, repeater, and even unload in 2v2 and 3v3 is just a monster. But, in 5v5, those same bursting skills, while they are rewarding, are also not top tier if you are 2v1ed because it focuses on single targets. That's a problem imo because I can focus on the ranger and the reaper kills me. I can focus on the DH and the Spellblade kills me. Moreover, a tank versus my thief could just easily waste my time and that time wasted doesn't allow me to cap nodes. Thief isn't the best duelist, but it's likely the best finisher in the game depending on the build you run simply because this game does require people to work together in PvP. Dueling wise, Herald, Reaper, and Soulbeast are likely the better professions for that. Maybe even core mesmer, played skillfully, in 1v1 situations.

 

TL:DR:

1. Stealth is easy to access, but takes a while to practice and do it right. It depends on the player and build. 

2,  De-targeting can be overcome by aoe and auto-attacking while spinning. 

3. Bursting in PvP/WvW scenarios various per build and per amount of group play. Thief is the best finisher, but not the best duelist. 

[Salvatore.3749]

2 hours ago, shrew.3059 said:

I would definitely agree; it’s easier to enter Stealth than to learn how to counter it. If this is the issue, I do think there’s a debate to be had. Should applying mechanic X be as difficult as countering mechanic X? Maybe, but this equation needs to consider the impact of mechanic X and how it scales with player skill and other mechanics. Perhaps what we learn is that Stealth is extremely potent in the hands of a skilled player facing a low skill player and we should balance for that.

With your first line, that's literally the frustration of other players. I think people need to play thief more and learn the mechanic. I just posted something before I saw this, but I think the real underlying issue is that some classes do not have the means to counter stealth. The best way to counter a stealth backstab is to turn around and auto-attack to prevent your back from being hit or use an aoe attack in your position to deal damage while the thief is in stealth or give yourself a decent buff to mitigate damage. 

But, certain classes don't have the aoe mechanic accessible all the time.  And a lower skilled player of that class does suffer. The best example that comes to mind is DH because while they can attack around them, they also have some higher cast times and longer CD, thus can be hit hard before they heal themselves or attack around them, and their aoe can be dodged or doesn't do enough damage to force a thief away from them. And if the thief is using sneak attack, well, they are just SOL because a skilled thief won't fight them head on in melee. It just doesn't make sense when your pistol shoots faster than their scepter or bow. 

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 9/30/2021 at 2:25 AM, ASP.8093 said:

The thing is, GW2 is only *sort of* a tab-targeting game. Melee attacks don't require selected targets, and one of the things people learn when they break into mid-tier play is that they need to be constantly targeting and de-targeting to make the best use of their mobility skills. So ranged builds have the most trouble with target dropping (since their attacks can just fizzle completely without a target), but at least two of the main ranged builds — Ranger and Core Necro — tend to have reasonably strong 1v1 capability against typical thief builds.

(I've made the argument that popping out of stealth should cause you to get re-targeted automatically in the past, but now that I'm a bit less rusty I think it's really the lack of damage floaties that's a bigger UI problem at most skill levels. Having to look at your combat log is just untenable in all but a few very narrow dueling situations.)

 

You can hotkey toggling Action Camera, where all abilities, including single-target ranged skills, will track stealth if you're pointing at the stealthed character.  Longbow ranger is actually straight dirty at tracking stealth as my guildmate does, since a spinning RF will track by the projectiles being cut short when they hit the thief, since they don't baseline pierce.

The floaters appearing on a stealthed target would subsequently defeat the purpose of stealth entirely this way since Action Camera is usable this way, as then it's an utterly useless mechanic as soon as you reach an echelon of play where people know to press the toggle button.

If you can predict where the thief is and nuke it, it dies.  it used to be this way, and it should be this way.  Good play should be rewarded like this.  The only bogus part is how stealth can be chained and how much asinine control of spacing its defensive especs have, not that "true stealth" is usable in combat.

[DeceiverX.8361]

5 hours ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

With your first line, that's literally the frustration of other players. I think people need to play thief more and learn the mechanic. I just posted something before I saw this, but I think the real underlying issue is that some classes do not have the means to counter stealth. The best way to counter a stealth backstab is to turn around and auto-attack to prevent your back from being hit or use an aoe attack in your position to deal damage while the thief is in stealth or give yourself a decent buff to mitigate damage. 

But, certain classes don't have the aoe mechanic accessible all the time.  And a lower skilled player of that class does suffer. The best example that comes to mind is DH because while they can attack around them, they also have some higher cast times and longer CD, thus can be hit hard before they heal themselves or attack around them, and their aoe can be dodged or doesn't do enough damage to force a thief away from them. And if the thief is using sneak attack, well, they are just SOL because a skilled thief won't fight them head on in melee. It just doesn't make sense when your pistol shoots faster than their scepter or bow. 

 

It's not that stealth needs a direct counter, it's that it needs to not be abusable.

If it couldn't be stacked as to regenerate its initiative and health and have control over the tempo of the fight, you'd know when to turn around and/or expect the backstab and how much left they have for resources at any moment in time like any other profession.  The only thing they have an edge on is its location, in which case, it's no different than a teleport.  Because "countering backstab" isn't AA'ing behind you; it's keeping track of where they are and should be roughly standing within the time frame they have, and CC'ing and nuking where the thief should be at that moment in time to kill them in the act of whatever it is they're doing.  You can bait them into burning initiative and cooldowns this way and pop a defensive skill at the right time, feint a defense and obliterate the in their own combo fields, turn and burn when they go for the backstab by stat-checking them, force cooldowns, etc.  Without stacking stealth, a thief can be grinded down pretty easily with smart trades because those small time frames aren't that big of a deal or are massively resource-intensive if they need to stagger them out.

[Zacchary.6183]

12 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

This is glossing over the spamming capabilties of thief  profession. 

 

• Hp aren't cooldowns. Thief has the highest burst in game, being able to delete any profession if their deffensive skills are in cooldown. 
• By baseline initiative is restored much faster  than any cooldown and with the right utilities/traits initiative costs is a non-issue. 
•  
• A Thief in maraurder gear is just over 17K hp which is the same as other medium classes which will regenerate hp when evading, while in stealth, when hitting targets and when stealing. Also  has the highest mobility, stealth, evades and burst in game.  Before any other thief main answers here this is a very known roaming build, for example (but not the only one)

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_SA_D/P_Roamer

 

You are not fooling anybody , everybody already knows how thief plays and that is a spamham profession with the lowest floor in game.

The fact that most thief mains come whining about how weak it is does not any favors to be liked by other players. 

 

1.) Your HP still recovers if thief gets out of range at the same PERCENTAGE rate as them. Therefore, the only valid complaint that can be made here is that it isn't fair that said thief did not let themselves get killed.

2.) Baseline initiative is 1 initiative per second. Literally a regular cooldown. But in terms of cooldowns, the difference is that other professions' weapon skills are not all locked at the same time when a skill is used. So while other professions continue to faceroll through their rotations, the thief has to wait before they can do anything besides auto. And considering thief's survival is HEAVILY TIED to their initiative-locked weapon skills, the thief is screwed until then.

3.) 17k is the same as other medium classes in full zerk + valk weapons. Which is not a good comparison since an even playing field would put a med HP like ranger over 22k. As most of thief's attacks deal damage, you can't really maintain stealth while still hitting things. Heal on evade requires you to actually evade something and there are only two traits that really do this, one being in acro which is rarely taken in builds. There is also signet of malice passive which does tiny heals on hit. But that requires builds that can abuse it.

4.) I've killed that build plenty of times with the hyper-gimmicky Ebola nobody wants to use. And it dies because condition cleanse on it is crap. It can't keep up with the constant application of bleeds and cripple. That should give you a hint.

5.) Stealth is only effective against mediocre players. Anyone who understands how the thief, and specifically that build, plays has a good chance at repelling and even killing a thief. You don't even need to be good, just knowledgeable.

6.) Thief has poor sustain, even if you frontload as much healing and condition cleanse as you possibly can. Most of these traits I have listed have healing modifiers under .5. That is abysmal when combined with the small base heals. Not even worth touching healing power because of it.

• Mug is almost 2k healing, but it is tied to steal and the traits to maximize it's usage takes away from other healing traits.
• Merciful Ambush heals 130 on a 10s CD. Useless.
• Shadow Savior heals 298, but thief only has two targetable shadowsteps and one costs over half of max initiative. Useless.
• Leeching Venoms heals 325 when you strike with an active venom, but this is only really good when you are with a coordinated group. Not only that, you can only get the most out of this trait if you load up on venoms. And I probably would take a venom build because of this trait, but I personally think venoms are trash utilities.
• Shadow Siphoning heals 504 if a stealth attack hits. IF.
• Cloaked in Shadow heals 194 on blind. 
• Shadows Rejuvenation heals 293 a second while in stealth and one condition every 3 seconds in stealth. I would not take this for the heal, personally. lol
• Assassin's Reward heals 102 per initiative spent. So assuming you are always using initiative, the average hps is 102.
• Escapist's Fortitude from DrD heals 456 and one condition on evade. Really the only good one, imho.
• Deadeye is good for regen and mug spam, but that's it.

7.) If thief is so OP, you should be able to wreck face with it in whatever you want to do. In which case, I invite you to try so you can come from an angle of experience and have more weight behind your opinion. But we all know you will refuse to get any.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Zacchary.6183

[RyuDragnier.9476]

On 9/30/2021 at 7:39 AM, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Lol which would destroy dp build completely, good idea, how about no. U want less stealth access why not ask for dagger 5 to be changed to a non stealth attack instead.... oh that's right cuz it won't kill a thief build.

Like I said, if they WANTED to get rid of that particular way into stealth. I could see how people who haven't played Thief or lower skilled players could see that combo as an issue, but I personally don't see it as one just due to the amount of initiative you're using for that particular combo. Especially when there are other easier and less costly ways to enter stealth on a Thief.

Edited October 1, 2021 by RyuDragnier.9476