Thief gets so much hate that's is honestly frightening.

[anduriell.6280]

Just now, Tails.9372 said:

Not every weapon set is based around "one shots from stealth" and skills like unload are way too overpriced for both the role they are supposed to serve and their actual performance.

I would say an skill called Unload which can deal up to  40K damage in WvW at range, gives might and restores your initiative was nerfed accordingly to the utility they bring. Although the skill would be needed to be nerfed further as no other class has access to that damage at range with  2 charges and every 5 seconds.  

[Tails.9372]

9 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I would say an skill called Unload which can deal up to  40K damage in WvW at range, gives might and restores your initiative was nerfed accordingly to the utility they bring. Although the skill would be needed to be nerfed further as no other class has access to that damage at range with  2 charges and every 5 seconds.  

That's rather disingenuous, most damage focused thief skills (with the sole exception of Weakening Charge) including unload are already considerably weaker than similar counterparts from other classes to account for the "spamability" and almost border on AA level damage. Other ranged AAs like the SB axe one are just slightly weaker, ricochets, also give might and are complimented by actual bust skills.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Tails.9372

[anduriell.6280]

7 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

That's rather disingenuous, most damage focused thief skills (with the sole exception of Weakening Charge) including unload are already considerably weaker than similar counterparts from other classes to account for the "spamability" and almost border on AA level damage. 

I just gave you the actual damage 40K in the first 2 unloads you can use one after another with no cooldown. At 900 range and it gives you might. I would say the skill is still overtuned and it would need further nerfs so it does not replace stealth attacks. 

7 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Other ranged AAs like the SB axe one are just slightly weaker, also give might and are complimented by actual bust skills.

I think you are mixing Ranger and Warrior. Ranger has the ranged Axe and warrior the burst skills. 

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Tails.9372]

32 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I just gave you the actual damage 40K in the first 2 unloads you can use one after another with no cooldown. At 900 range and it gives you might. I would say the skill is still overtuned and it would need further nerfs so it does not replace stealth attacks. 

40k (most of which can easily be avoided or even sent back to where it came from) when burning through your main resource on a complete glass build is nothing. Ranged AA spam from other classes get them similar results in a comparitive time frame without even tutching their other resources at all. Heck rifle can do better while also having better ini sustain, damage upkeep, more range and some CC on top of it and that one is supposed to be a burst weapon.

32 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I think you are mixing Ranger and Warrior. Ranger has the ranged Axe and warrior the burst skills.

Ranger has both.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Tails.9372

[anduriell.6280]

29 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

40k (most of which can easily be avoided or even sent back to where it came from) when burning through your main resource on a complete glass build is nothing. Ranged AA spam from other classes get them similar results in a comparitive time frame without even tutching their other resources at all. Heck rifle can do better while also having better ini sustain, damage upkeep, more range and some CC on top of it and that one is supposed to be a burst weapon.

Steal does not need any initiative and the utility skills use cooldowns. In any case in 6 seconds the thief will have enough initiative to unload another 20k at range on target and 4 seconds after another unload. In the meanwhile the thief could stay stealthed.  It doesn't matter how you try to paint it, that skill definitely needs further nerfing. 

 

29 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Ranger has both.

You are mistaken. Link the burst axe skills you are talking about so we can see what you mean. 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

The funny thing is that a lot of the replies in this thread essentially boil down to "waaaaaaaah, nasty thief doesn't play fair, nerf it nerf it!". It's the rogue class, not playing fair is literally it's archtype and it's job description, so I really don't know what some people expect when they fight one then complain that something about it is unfair. 

[Tails.9372]

50 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Steal does not need any initiative and the utility skills use cooldowns.

Which is beside the point as I was talking about initiative in context of the weapon set.

50 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

In any case in 6 seconds the thief will have enough initiative to unload another 20k at range on target and 4 seconds after another unload.

This is ignoring that "after these 6 seconds" the other player should have also gotten one of their dodges back (if they even used them in the first place). Applying conterpressue at mid range is also not a hard thing to do as P/P has neither engage nor disengagement skills on the weapon set.

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

In the meanwhile the thief could stay stealthed.

Which is ultimately just an admission that the weapon set is incapable of keeping up offensive pressure which, as others have pointed out, is also an opportunity for the opponent to undo the damage the thief did previously.

50 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

It doesn't matter how you try to paint it, that skill definitely needs further nerfing.

And thus you've become a caricature of what the others were talking about earlier, asking for nerfs without any real justification just because a thief that goes complete glass can do "20k unsustained damage" vs. what sounds like an afk light armor wearer with no other investment in toughness completely ignoring that this is nothing special in the grand scheme of things.

51 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

You are mistaken. Link the burst axe skills you are talking about so we can see what you mean.

Whirling Defense which is just marginally weaker than the warrior counterpart Whirling Axe (2,904 vs. 3,075) while also offering some utility (resolution for the player, vulnerability for the enemy and projectile reflection) on top of it. The rest of the axe skills offer some CC which, unlike with P/P, doesn't limit the sustained DPS / burst capabilities of the weapon set.

[anduriell.6280]

12 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

And thus you've become a caricature of what the others were talking about earlier, asking for nerfs without any real justification just because a thief that goes complete glass can do "20k unsustained damage" vs. what sounds like an afk light armor wearer with no other investment in toughness completely ignoring that this is nothing special in the grand scheme of things.

I gave you plenty of reasoning . You don't want to listen to them is a you problem, the thief still needs a harsh nerf to bring their mains back to the reallity other classes are in. 

 

Quote

Whirling Defense which is just marginally weaker than the warrior counterpart Whirling Axe (2,904 vs. 3,075) while also offering some utility (resolution for the player, vulnerability for the enemy and projectile reflection) on top of it. The rest of the axe skills offer some CC which, unlike with P/P, doesn't limit the sustained DPS / burst capabilities of the weapon set.

And yet that is not a burst utility, neither has any range, it has a full 12 seconds channelling and keeps the ranger rooted in place. You clearly don't know what you are talking about neither bother to even check the wiki and are just trolling at this point. 

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Psycoprophet.8107]

4 hours ago, Skada.1362 said:

Ahh yes Psycoprophet, the biggest shadow arts/thief defender in the game. You can cope all you want bruh but at the end of the day you play the most forgiving cheese kitten out there, and the majority of players don't like it. You know it, i know it, everybody knows it.

 

Thief players have always had this idea that their class is some "master class" that uses active avoidance aka dodging like every other class, and therefor its super duper "high skill" yet most run it with shadow arts, instant cast shadowstep etc... making it incredibly easy to correct any missplay. 1 single click and you are either stealth with aoe blind or disengage into ooc safety. Btw bruh, thieves have block, dodges and invulnerable skills aswell. 

Oh and I don't need to l2p, I already play thief just fine, I probably have more hours on my thief than yours.

 

Nerf WVW d/p set blind durations, nerf multiple shadow arts traits, nerf certain deception skills like shadowstep and thief will be inline.

 

Btw Psycoprophet if you ever wanna do Armistice Thief v Thief PM me ingame 😉 xoxo

Haha biggest sa thief defender? 1- I defend thief period because players of this game cry for nerfs against builds they dont like even when their not oppressive just because they cant be bothered to learn to fight it, easy to whine for nerfs. 2- I play staff cs thief and kitten s/d thief more than anything. 3- barely touch pvp, haven't even started placements. 4- I play maybe a hr a week these days in wvw, switched to eso as a main mmo as it has better questing and nightblade is a far more fun rogue class as it hasn't been completely neutered by whiny nerf cryers lol. These days I really could care less about thief in gw2 lol. I've got a slight curiosity of it's new espec but that's about it.

So have at the whines lol

[Tails.9372]

43 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I gave you plenty of reasoning . You don't want to listen to them is a you problem, the thief still needs a harsh nerf to bring their mains back to the reallity other classes are in. 

No you just repeated the same "but a 20k burst if the build is optimized for it" argument over and over again and when I pointed out that this is nothing special as it offers room for a lot of counterplay and that other classes / builds can do similar things with a lot more sustain / without having to put even a fraction of their resources into it then you just ignored it instead of trying to make an argument as for why you still think that your point is justified in spite of that.

43 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

And yet that is not a burst utility, neither has any range, it has a full 12 seconds channelling and keeps the ranger rooted in place. You clearly don't know what you are talking about neither bother to even check the wiki and are just trolling at this point. 

Speak for yourself, "12 seconds channelling"? It's 12 hits over 5 seconds (3,3 if you have quickness). That it roots you in place also isn't much of an issue as ranger has access to multiple CC skills (including a pull and a knockdown) to ensure that he gets his fair share of hits in or at least that the opponent has to waste his stunbreak in the process and as I said this is on top of the already good cost free sustained DPS.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Tails.9372

[shrew.3059]

5 hours ago, Skada.1362 said:

Ahh yes Psycoprophet, the biggest shadow arts/thief defender in the game. You can cope all you want bruh but at the end of the day you play the most forgiving cheese kitten out there, and the majority of players don't like it. You know it, i know it, everybody knows it.

 

You can write it, but it doesn’t make it true. I guess fighting Thieves in Forum Wars 2 is easier than fighting them in-game?

 

You could probably delete Thieves from the game entirely and outside of some changes to PvP in terms of map rotation, not sure the meta would change very much. Sounds overpowered to me.

[Catchyfx.5768]

Henlo,

Im maining rev so this is my perspective and why im b*t*hing about teefs, when I met one in WvW(1v1)
But before I start i have to say i have respect for good Thieves as mentioned before, Im playing one myself sometimes, it is harder then rev i would say, but have lot more options in that duel .

my biggest problem is when coming from stealth i cannot do much, burn my energy for nothing or get hit, then I feel like Im pretty much slower, before I cast skill i get daze etc. So at the end of the "duel"(read cat playing with mouse) im perma stuned and when im not I don't know where my oponent is. Only thing that worked recently is condi spam on legendswap for me.

I kinda get Thief have upper hand vs revenant(like i do vs Guards), and instead of Thief is OP, I would say rev dont have answeres for this type of gameplay. So Im bitching and knowing i didnt have much to do to win. Only way when I win is when thief do the mistake. And this is fascinating, when I play thief, I never die by  better enemy(unless its teef vs teef)( yes I do but not that much), I die because I made the mistake( too greedy, wanna finish too quickly(haha that's what she said :D).

Overall
I and my friends( did a questioning) are just salty because we cannot win, we can make you reset and come back, until we die eventualy. that is what i hate.

[Skada.1362]

1 hour ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

You can write it, but it doesn’t make it true. I guess fighting Thieves in Forum Wars 2 is easier than fighting them in-game?

 

You could probably delete Thieves from the game entirely and outside of some changes to PvP in terms of map rotation, not sure the meta would change very much. Sounds overpowered to me.

My man, I play thief. I can fight thieves just fine but that don't make the class any less overpowered in WVW. I couldn't care less about sPVP. I want sPVP and WVW to share balance, and that goes for all the other classes aswell.

You claim my claims of the SA d/p daredevil build to be the cheesiest most forgiving build in the game for WVW roaming/smallscale to "not true" but I disagree. You basically can't die to anyone or anything on it unless you are 10 beers in.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

3 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

By your logic wintraders, hackers and cheaters should not be punished in this game. Some big argument there. 

Well, no, unless you're literally saying I'm equating an intentional archtype design with unintentional exploits. Don't put words in my mouth, if you please 🙂

[Skada.1362]

38 minutes ago, Graeaw.6329 said:

We already had a moderator warn people to hold off with the personal attacks, please.

As for actual discussions, D/P shadow arts daredevil is "overrepresented" as far as WvW and PvP Thief population goes (not a big number). I would gladly use and see other traitlines being played too, however, as long as Renegade and Scourge exist, I can't picture myself not using the pulsing condition cleanse in stealth.

That being said, of course Thieves will "spam" stealth and dodge, those are the tools they are given to stay healthy. They have no access to protection or aegis, reasonable sustain, alternative health pools or high armor values.

 

Fair enough. I feel Thief has plenty of condition cleanse in Withdraw, Hide in Shadows, Sword 2, Shadowstep, SOA, Escapist's Fortitude, Trickster, Dash, etc etc etc. I feel you, Shadow's Embrace is good but I'm pretty sure most people run Hidden Thief since its just quite overloaded.

Whenever I play core s/d or daredevil s/d I never feel like I lack cleansing, maybe it's different in sPVP. I want trickery traits to be less "mandatory", i want thieves to have Preparedness as baseline to offer more build diversity, I want the 300 sec cd traits in Acro to be reworked completely to something more usefull plus buffs to tons of less used utility skills. That being said, I want to nerf the kitten out of several SA traits plus the most overloaded skill in the game - Shadowstep.

If EOD can do all of this + deliver on a new fresh e spec offering thieves a new way/style to play the game thats not this "perma stealth blind spam kitten while being near immortal" then I'll forever shut up.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Skada.1362

[Graeaw.6329]

6 minutes ago, Skada.1362 said:

a new fresh e spec offering thieves a new way/style to play the game thats not this "perma stealth blind spam kitten while being near immortal"

I think the majority of us is looking forward to that. Here's hoping to us seeing something refreshing in this weeks reveal!

[Chips.7968]

10 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I just gave you the actual damage 40K in the first 2 unloads you can use one after another with no cooldown. At 900 range and it gives you might. I would say the skill is still overtuned and it would need further nerfs so it does not replace stealth attacks. 

40k damage? Just dodge... l2p issue 🙂 🙂 🙂

Edited October 18, 2021 by Chips.7968

[shrew.3059]

6 hours ago, Skada.1362 said:

You basically can't die to anyone or anything on it unless you are 10 beers in.

 

I just disagree that’s the same as being overpowered when you are not significantly better at killing anything. It’s like the flipside to being a glass cannon; Soulbeasts can instagib the unwary but I don’t consider them overpowered because they can be countered and they can be killed.

[itspomf.9523]

On 10/17/2021 at 11:50 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

About as sad as so many choosing to play thief for obvious reasons yet will never admit playing their strengths. Because of course they picked the extra skillful class, unlike those other plebs.

Fun thing happened not many days ago. I got whispered and taunted by a stealthing jumping bean of a thief because I "needed to call for help to kill him" when I ran to north camp to defend.

I had been commander tagged for the past 30 minutes and didnt say a peep ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Did you report the player for verbal harassment?  What they did is against the game's Terms of Service.

[Burial.1958]

9 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

By your logic wintraders, hackers and cheaters should not be punished in this game. Some big argument there. 

 A bit salty to set the archetype of the thief class on a lvl with hackers and cheaters. 

 

Ps: Thief is the most nerfed class ever in this game.

 

Ps2': When u loose as a Ranger against Thief then it is truly a L2p issue. Pew Pew is not viable against every situation u face.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Grebcol.5984

[DeceiverX.8361]

14 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I would say an skill called Unload which can deal up to  40K damage in WvW

Lolwut

[Zacchary.6183]

1 hour ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Lolwut

It does when you're downed. :P

[anduriell.6280]

8 hours ago, fluffdragon.1523 said:

Did you report the player for verbal harassment?  What they did is against the game's Terms of Service.

I would think that more as a banter than verbal harassment. It would not bother me and most thiefs you meet in WvW are a bit edgelords so it is usual for them to wisper you if the combat don't go their way. 

But i would say that is a personality trait more than a profession mechanic. 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Dawdler.8521]

53 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I would think that more as a banter than verbal harassment. It would not bother me and most thiefs you meet in WvW are a bit edgelords so it is usual for them to wisper you if the combat don't go their way. 

But i would say that is a personality trait more than a profession mechanic. 

 

Its only verbal abuse if you laugh so hard at whispering snowflake thieves you break a rib.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[saerni.2584]

On 10/17/2021 at 4:38 AM, Teratus.2859 said:

Do tell how "ranged" skills that require an active target (which is almost all of them) are useful against a player you can't see or target because they are stealthed.

I'll agree that they are useful against a non stealthed thief who is away from you but once that thief goes invisible and if you don't have a channel skill in effect while that happens the vast majority of your ranged skills are useless.
Unless they're AoE skills but then those tend to have long CD and are wasted trying to just guess where the thief is and are better used on yourself as a damage shield or way to deter the thief from attacking for a few seconds, but even then the thief can just yank you out of it with a pull so not always that useful.

And no matter how much mobility you put into your build the thief is going to have more, so unless you get the chance to mount up and run when the thief resets the fight, the thief is going to stop you running from them.

And on a second note, swapping to some ranged weapons on some classes is a bad idea as it's basically an open invitation for the thief to get up close and stab you while you can't really get an attack off.
This is a like a huge freebie for the thief to smack you around while your weapon swap is on CD.

When they come out of stealth hit them and hit them hard. Ranged abilities have an advantage as do channeled abilities. Really this isn't hard. Not sure why you think them getting close prevents skillful use of ranged skills. I use ranged weapons primarily and a melee thief is pretty exposed in my experience. 
 

You also seem to think mobility isn't possible—when I see some people kiting out thieves strategically. You don't need to outrun the Thief completely—you need enough mobility to avoid some of their chasing abilities before counter attacking. What you are missing is the flow between your resources and your opponents resources and the gap that is the opening.
 

Don't spam. Use your ranged abilities when they come out of stealth. Kite out their base mobility skills so they become less mobile in the medium term. AoE selectively and not with abandon. 
 

I can't teach someone how to play but that is the insight I can offer.