Legendary gen. 3 account bound?

[LucianDK.8615]

1 hour ago, mtpelion.4562 said:

What difference does it make to you if some players want to directly fund continued development of the game via the use of credit card purchases?

What difference does it make to you if some other players want to play how they want and enjoy specific types of content, earn gold, and use that gold to buy a legendary?

 

I'm genuinely baffled every time I hear the argument that other people's enjoyment of the game should be limited because they aren't getting Legendary items the way YOU want them to.

Your argument makes completely no sense.

Think about what you are saying. Why are you playing a game if you do not truly want to play for the best stuff?

That is why the best stuff should require some effort at least.

 

I have made gen 2 legendaries. Sure I paid some $$$ for the excessive amount of basic materials needed. But there was plenty to do for the bound stuff. That is a good balance, imho.

Edited September 7, 2021 by LucianDK.8615

[BlueJin.4127]

Because not all players want to play for the best stuff. I have never played for the best stuff myself. That’s not what keeps me going. There are many reasons to play and all players have their own reasons for playing the game.

Maybe legendaries are just a means to an end for some players because they feel contents they want to play are more enjoyable with legendaries, but they do not enjoy the process of making legendaries. It’s not my place to tell them their opinion is wrong, that they don’t NEED legendaries, that making legendaries should be their end goal, and that they must be forced to make legendaries to show me they earned it.

Maybe some players are so casual that they only play the game for 20 hours and never come back. Maybe they don’t want to commit to making legendaries and just want to buy them with real life money so they can try them. These types players may not stay long, legendary creation or not, but it’ll certainly keep players like me playing more as somebody needs to make legendaries for them to be sold.

Some players also don't give crap about "accomplishments" in video games. 😏 There's nothing to show off. I use gears that I want to use, not to show off to others. I also don't care what other players have "accomplished" in games. Other players are not obliged to show me what they're worth. Some players play games as entertainment.

Also, some players are not so petty. Let's fact it, the reason some players (not all) want account bound legendaries is because they get all jealous when others can simply buy what they had to earn manually. Some players really don't care that others spend money to buy their way in as long as it has no effect on them.

All players have their own reasons for playing, and a long as they do not harm the game or other players in any way, it's not my place to decide how or why they must play the game. Other players buying legendaries has no effect on me, so it's not up to me to decide how or why they must play the game.

Edited September 7, 2021 by BlueJin.4127

[Cyninja.2954]

3 minutes ago, BlueJin.4127 said:

Because not all players want to play for the best stuff. I have never played for the best stuff myself. That’s not what keeps me going. There are many reasons to play and all players have their own reasons for playing the game.

Maybe legendaries are just a means to an end for some players because they feel contents they want to play are more enjoyable with legendaries, but they do not enjoy the process of making legendaries. It’s not my place to tell them their opinion is wrong, that they don’t NEED legendaries, and making legendaries should be their end goal.

Maybe some players are so casual that they only play the game for 20 hours and never come back. Maybe they don’t want to commit to making legendaries and just want to buy them with real life money so they can try them. These types players may not stay long, legendary creation or not, but it’ll certainly keep players like me playing more as somebody needs to make legendaries for them to be sold.

Some players also don't give crap about "accomplishments" in video games. There's nothing to show off. I use gears that I want to use, not to show off to others. I also don't care what other players have "accomplished" in games. I don't need other players to show me what they're worth because I don't care.

All players have their own reasons for playing, and a long as they do not harm the game or other players in any way, it's not my place to decide how they must play the game.

 

That all sounds great. You are leaving out 1 inconvenience though:

There is a reason why most MMORPGs have grind. It's the genres approach to keep players engaged and in the game. There is a reason why ascended was added here (exactly this reason back then). There is a reason why achievements are added. There is a reason why new story content is added.

 

For all of those the reason is the same: busywork and occupation of players.

 

We constantly get the argument against raids: there is a huge cut off after 750 LI (when all 3 armors are attainable) and players stop raiding. Quite clearly indicating a relationship between player engagement with the games content and desired reward.

 

What if introducing buy able legendary gear actually causes players to leave earlier? Not that far fetched a notion, given that is something which the level 80 boost also has a problem with. Thus in the short term, great the developer make a ton of more money at the cost of long term player retention.

 

Why do players who want to buy their legendary automatically assume others care about them having them? I'm someone who probably has the most to profit if legendarys became sell-able, given I am full legendary, have stacks of LI/LD and every possible currency. There is just 1 minor caveat for me: it sucks playing a dead game which the locust of credit card warriors have passed through.

[mtpelion.4562]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Small reminder:

Ascended gear was added to this game with the intent to STOP player hemorrhage from players leaving after gearing up to fast. Funny how now some consider this to not be a risk any longer.

 

It was also released concurrently with Season 1 of the Living World as part of a two-pronged effort to combat player loss.

 

The Living World has continued to receive constant updates and seasons while Fractal gear has never had anything else added to it (except for multiple new ways to obtain it moving it closer and closer to being something that can be obtained by playing the game however players want to play it).

 

That would indicate that Ascended gear FAILED to achieve the goal of player retention and rather CONTENT was what worked.

 

Your premise is not supported by your example. 

[Cyninja.2954]

3 minutes ago, mtpelion.4562 said:

 

It was also released concurrently with Season 1 of the Living World as part of a two-pronged effort to combat player loss.

 

The Living World has continued to receive constant updates and seasons while Fractal gear has never had anything else added to it (except for multiple new ways to obtain it moving it closer and closer to being something that can be obtained by playing the game however players want to play it).

 

That would indicate that Ascended gear FAILED to achieve the goal of player retention and rather CONTENT was what worked.

 

Your premise is not supported by your example. 

No, ascended gear was introduced to extend the time it took players to get geared out (even spreading out its release over months as to not let players immediately gear up). The goal was never to add a gear threadmill.

 

Living World Season 1 was planned before the game had even launched. That was their take on supporting the game.

 

Adding to that, both HoT AND PoF added new stat combinations AND a new type of stat setup (4-stats instead of 3). Which were in parts superior to old stat combinations. Now with EoD legendary gear was updated to have superior convenience.

 

Are you connecting the dots by now?

Edited September 7, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Sylvyn.4750]

45 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Once players have no more goals to work towards, they tend to leave a game.

 

I'm genuinely baffled every time I hear the argument that paying to skip content is a good idea business wise, especially once those players have bought everything they thought they wanted, only to grow bored and leave the game.

 

Small reminder:

Ascended gear was added to this game with the intent to STOP player hemorrhage from players leaving after gearing up to fast. Funny how now some consider this to not be a risk any longer.

Well, if the Anniversary/August sales are an indicator, the real end game is fashion wars.  People can get bored of the content/grind at any level, so instead of losing players and if Anet can make a little money to let people skip the parts that are boring, why not?  In my case, when I was stuck at exotic and ascended seemed a bridge too far, I might have quit playing after the story content was done if I hadn't bought some gems to convert to gold, which got me hooked on working towards more mats and gold to make more ascended as the process got easier from that point on.

While there is a good argument to have time gates and stretch out the process for players to achieve goals to keep them playing, if you move the goal posts farther to satisfy some players looking for long grinds, you also run the risk of losing other players that can't even see the goal posts from where they currently stand, and that can be just as discouraging as having no goals at all.  Anet does have a way of throwing in so many different map currencies and mats into gear progression that it must be especially overwhelming for newer players, just as it seemed to me so many moons ago.  I honestly don't know if I would recommend GW2 to anyone looking for a new game to play casually at this point, as it would take them a long time to catch up, with many high hurdles to overcome along the way.

[Cyninja.2954]

7 minutes ago, Sylvyn.4750 said:

 I honestly don't know if I would recommend GW2 to anyone looking for a new game to play casually at this point, as it would take them a long time to catch up, with many high hurdles to overcome along the way.

Fair enough, but you do realize that if anyone who plays an MMORPG casual is able to "catch up", the developers have seriously messed up their reward structure along the way.

 

This game was never meant as "I play casually and get all the rewards". The goal was always: you are not required to heavily grind to be able to participate in the games content and which evern content you play, you will make some progress towards a goal. That remains true to this day. Unfortunately some players come here assuming that being able to participate is synonymous with I am entitled to all the games rewards.

 

As to fashion wars, yes that used to be the games "endgame" for better or worse. Now years later and many many MANY cash shop items later, the developers are forced to keep players stuck to the game with grindy achievements, rehashing insane amounts of old content for newly made desirable gear rewards (legendary amulet anyone?) and in general injecting as much grind as they can without players noticing, ideally in areas which are not directly related to gearing (though making legendary far more desirable than ascended sure upped the grind factor). Why? Because cosmetics in this game mean kitten by now.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[yann.1946]

2 hours ago, mtpelion.4562 said:

 

It was also released concurrently with Season 1 of the Living World as part of a two-pronged effort to combat player loss.

 

The Living World has continued to receive constant updates and seasons while Fractal gear has never had anything else added to it (except for multiple new ways to obtain it moving it closer and closer to being something that can be obtained by playing the game however players want to play it).

 

That would indicate that Ascended gear FAILED to achieve the goal of player retention and rather CONTENT was what worked.

 

No, the insane amount (rightly so btw) of backlash caused them to not add more gear tiers. 

2 hours ago, mtpelion.4562 said:

Your premise is not supported by your example. 

 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

20 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

As far as I'm concerned, the only issue I see with legendaries as they currently are (although it's a big problem) is that free stat changing is locked behind them

It's far from free. You earn that benefit from the time and gold you put into making them. It would take far less time and money to literally use different ascended items of different stats. 

[Sylvyn.4750]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

you will make some progress towards a goal

 

Anyone can make some progress, but then the cost vs. benefit analysis kicks in and some decide it ultimately isn't worth the effort to pursue.  For example, I had considered legendary weapons, but with the large cost differential between them and ascended, and that the new legendary armory doesn't allow for quick weapon swaps because all the traits, sigils and infusions get wiped from the legendary weapons when moving them in and out of the weapon slot, a better and less expensive option for me is to make and carry the ascended weapons with the stats I need rather than make legendary weapons and have to stock up on equipment templates.  The legendary armors, on the other hand, seem very much worthwhile as I don't typically change those on the fly, so that is the route I've gone, which will still take me over a year to obtain all 3 sets per my estimates as WvW is my main mode of play. YMMV

[Krzysztof.5973]

The endgame in this game is fashion. The more prestigious rewards that are harder to obtain than simply swiping the credit card, the better. More tradable legendaries would devalue them even further. 
It's a different story with how pathetic the gen3 set looks... 

[Arnox.5128]

2 hours ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

It's far from free. You earn that benefit from the time and gold you put into making them. It would take far less time and money to literally use different ascended items of different stats. 

 

The point isn't the money involved. The point is that stats (besides of course core weapon damage, weapon speed, and etc.) shouldn't be directly bound to your gear in the first place and should be freely changeable at any time at any level as it was in GW1.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Zalavaaris.5329]

16 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

 

The point isn't the money involved. The point is that stats (besides of course core weapon damage, weapon speed, and etc.) shouldn't be directly bound to your gear in the first place and should be freely changeable at any time at any level as it was in GW1.

But with easily available ascended items (which are stored in the equipment templates anyway) why is easly stat swapping important? You can change the stats on ascended and most people don't use all the stats on legendaries. They use 2 maybe 3 stat combos. Why couldn't you just get that many ascended pieces for way less time and money? 

[Arnox.5128]

8 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

But with easily available ascended items (which are stored in the equipment templates anyway) why is easly stat swapping important? You can change the stats on ascended and most people don't use all the stats on legendaries. They use 2 maybe 3 stat combos. Why couldn't you just get that many ascended pieces for way less time and money? 

 

Your argument is basically, "It's not that bad." which is not a valid argument to keep the current system.

 

Yeah, we can DEAL with it, but ANet should obviously strive to be better than just "good enough."

Edited September 7, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Zalavaaris.5329]

22 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

 

Your argument is basically, "It's not that bad." which is not a valid argument to keep the current system.

 

Yeah, we can DEAL with it, but ANet should obviously strive to be better than just "good enough."

It's not bad at all... the entitlement on this forum is mind boggling... you want it? Make a legendary. I have several, but not for all weapons I use.  In those cases I have multiple ascended I use, one for each stat combo I need.  It's one of the ONLY forms of gear progression I get.... 

[Sugar Min.5834]

8 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

Your argument makes completely no sense.

Think about what you are saying. Why are you playing a game if you do not truly want to play for the best stuff?

That is why the best stuff should require some effort at least.

 

I have made gen 2 legendaries. Sure I paid some $$$ for the excessive amount of basic materials needed. But there was plenty to do for the bound stuff. That is a good balance, imho.

Well, your argument makes completely no sense either.

 

Earning money irl requires effort too, no? And, using that money to buy the legs is, in a way, making efforts to support ANet, no? And it is ok that you use real money to buy mats and not ok for others to buy legs? And why you need to buy mats? By your logic, you should make more effort to earn them all even if it is going to take a long time.

 

If no one spend real money on gems, like 80% of the players use gold to convert to gems, you won't have a game to grind long ago, let alone having three expansions. It's like saying we should build our own house if we want to live in it.

 

What is wrong with you doing what you enjoyed and let others play the game their ways? Many of us have full time jobs and personal commitments and do not have the luxury of many hours for this game and when we do, we want to do something we enjoy, definitely not grinding and farming for mats for hours every day, for months. We play this game for entertainment, for enjoyment. To some grinding is enjoyment and also probably no other options for them, but to others grinding is a chore, a waste of gameplay time especially when our in-game time is limited and so they opted for other option which is opened for them.

 

Those nay-sayers are players who have too much game time in their hands and they enjoy grinding all day, and probably they have thousands of gold and never have to spend a single cent to buy gem store stuff and are not happy when there are others who can and are willingly to spend real money to get what they want.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Mil.3562

[Arnox.5128]

35 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

It's not bad at all... the entitlement on this forum is mind boggling... you want it? Make a legendary. I have several, but not for all weapons I use.  In those cases I have multiple ascended I use, one for each stat combo I need.  It's one of the ONLY forms of gear progression I get.... 

 

Once again, "Deal with it," is not a valid argument for the current system. You do bring up a point though that I want to talk about.

 

Guild Wars 1 and 2 are not about gear progression. Never have been. Hopefully never will be. You guys have SO MANY MMOs that are specifically built for the gear progression. And yeah, WoW's dying, but FF14 looks to be the game for you all. Guild Wars is just not your kind of MMO. And I'm not trying to be snooty either when I say that. Some games simply do some things better than other games. Guild Wars though has always been about skill and respecting the player's time as much as possible. Being forced to grind for gear goes against both those core tenets.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Zalavaaris.5329]

5 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

 

Once again, "Deal with it," is not a valid argument for the current system. You do bring up a point though that I want to talk about.

 

Guild Wars 1 and 2 are not about gear progression. Never have been. Hopefully never will be. You guys have SO MANY MMOs that are specifically built for the gear progression. And yeah, WoW's dying, but FF14 looks to be the game for you all. GW2 is not your game. And I'm not trying to be snooty either when I say that. Some games simply do some things better than other games. Guild Wars though has always been about skill and respecting the player's time as much as possible.

I've been a die hard fan of gw2 since the beta weekends and head start. This is absolutely my game and they struck the PERFECT balance between gear progression and not having a treadmill. 

 

Also for the record I did play GW1 as well. Couldn't jump... hated it.... never went back. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[Arnox.5128]

3 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

I've been a die hard fan of gw2 since the beta weekends and head start. This is absolutely my game and they struck the PERFECT balance between gear progression and not having a treadmill. 

 

If there is gear progression then there is a treadmill, even if it's a limited one. And right now, that gear progression is getting right in the way of player convenience and allowing builds to reach their maximum potential without a grind wall.
 

Now, WITH THAT SAID, Guild Wars 2 is already long established, and even if I could change this right now, I wouldn't, even if I really don't like it or agree with it at all. It's a finished game, core mechanics wise. This is much more a Guild Wars 3 suggestion if anything.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Zalavaaris.5329]

4 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

 

If there is gear progression then there is a treadmill, even if it's a limited one. And right now, that gear progression is getting right in the way of player convenience and allowing builds to reach their maximum potential without a grind wall.
 

Now, WITH THAT SAID, Guild Wars 2 is already long established, and even if I could change this right now, I wouldn't, even if I really don't like it or agree with it at all. It's a finished game, core mechanics wise. This is much more a Guild Wars 3 suggestion if anything.

It's not a treadmill...... what are you talking about?!? It's a ladder... you get to the top and you're done... FOREVER

 

If they make a gw3 I probably won't play it. I've got too much time invested in this game to want to start over. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[Solvar.7953]

The stat change for legendary is certainly convenient.  And the addition of the legendary armory is another plus now (get that legendary greatsword, and now all your characters have easy access to it with what stats they want).

You can stat change ascended armor - it isn't necessarily cheaper, but unless you are stat changing a lot, probably cheaper than the legendary (may also need upgrade extractors if using valuable runes also, though in most cases, the cost of the rune is less than the cost of the extractor).

In terms of business model, this is where it gets tricky.  Arguably, it is better for Anet for someone to start playing, spend $500 in the first year to get all the stuff (legendaries, ascended, whatever else) and quit playing than for someone to buy the base game, and spend another $50/year but constantly play it - second case it takes 10 years for payout, but there is more associated to supporting that player.

So it may not necessarily be a problem for players to come in, spend a bunch of money to 'complete' the game, and then quit.  It is certainly better than if new players start playing, realize they can't get what they want, and then quit after giving Anet some minimal amount of money.

To me, someone having a legendary means nothing special - so many people have them, and aside from the massive amount of materials, it doesn't require much.  PoF map completion requires some time, but any decent player can do it.  Gift of Battle through WvW also requires time, but once again, if one chooses the easy dailies (master of monuments, veteran creature slayer, land claimer, big spender) once again just takes time.  So I guess what it does show is that the person put some time into the game, but hardly says anything about their playing ability.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

6 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

 

If there is gear progression then there is a treadmill, even if it's a limited one. And right now, that gear progression is getting right in the way of player convenience and allowing builds to reach their maximum potential without a grind wall.

For someone constantly telling others that their arguments are not valid, how does one get this so wrong?

 

A gear threadmill is called that way because the itemization and gear system in a game is designed to keep increasing (or devaluing existing gear, most often both), thus facilitating a threadmill like situation where players are constantly threading in 1 place. That's LITERALLY what the term means.

 

It is absolutely unrelated to the extent of gear progression but rather on how often this progression, and thus the effort a player has to put into it, has to be repeated. You could have a 1,000 hour gear progression with dozens of substeps, and it still would not be a threadmill if it never changed past the initial conception.

 

As mentioned by Zalavaaris.5329 GW2 gearing system is more akin to a ladder which you climb once (and not that high a ladder at that compared to other MMORPGs).

 

Now one could make the argument that the developers have been creative in circumventing certain aspects to this ladder, like adding new stat combinations or making legendary gear far more convenient than ascended, which would be a legitimate complaint. On the flip side, the developers have also added more and more ways to easily acquire gear and gold over the years, which more than makes up for these changes.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Modliszka.5027]

10 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

The endgame in this game is fashion. The more prestigious rewards that are harder to obtain than simply swiping the credit card, the better. More tradable legendaries would devalue them even further. 
It's a different story with how pathetic the gen3 set looks... 

You really claim that Eternity (or any other gen 1)  is devalued, because you can buy it?

[Modliszka.5027]

I started this topic, because I truly believe that trading (and communities involved into it) are one of the major dimension of this game.

There are a lot of people for whom trading and getting rich is ultimate goal in this game. On the other side there are people with limited time - young working adults (which I believe is even core target group of this game), for whom idea of shortcuts to grinding is more than welcome. 

The whole economy of this game is amazing, so I would really love to see gen. 3 part of that great economy. 

[Cyninja.2954]

3 minutes ago, Modliszka.5027 said:

I started this topic, because I truly believe that trading (and communities involved into it) are one of the major dimension of this game.

There are a lot of people for whom trading and getting rich is ultimate goal in this game. On the other side there are people with limited time - young working adults (which I believe is even core target group of this game), for whom idea of shortcuts to grinding is more than welcome. 

The whole economy of this game is amazing, so I would really love to see gen. 3 part of that great economy. 

 

Not sure if serious.

 

If trading and making gold in this game was so important to you, there are other far more important issues one would need to tackle.

 

For example: the gray market outside of the game, where ironically a portion of the trading happens in relation to legendarys (both in terms of legendary items as well as materials).

 

If more trade of legendary gear were the goal, shutting down out of game trading would be a far more reasonable approach, instead of asking for even more high value items to get added, some of which would ultimately be traded out of game yet again.