For the love of God, please nerf condi in PvP

[Dadnir.5038]

It's always fun to see this subject come over and over.

 

Point is that:

- Builds that rely on damaging conditions aren't "meta".

- Non-damaging conditions are just as meta as boons are.

- A condi build that heavily use boons won't be called a power build just like a power build that heavily use non-damaging conditions won't be called a condi build.

 

I won't say that conditions don't need a "nerfs" but the same is true for boons and boons are a lot more rampant (and "meta") than conditions are (because, while every single profession have access to condi cleanse and immunity, not all professions have ways to deal with their foes boons).

 

[Hotride.2187]

I feel like the available amulets already keep condi builds in spvp in check.

Not that condi is that strong in wvw roaming, but a condi build with trailblazer or similar stats can take 5 years to kill. Add a support to 4 such condis and you just cant kill anyone in the group. I'm kind of surprised to find this topic in the pvp section and not in the wvw one.

[saerni.2584]

7 hours ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

You don’t need any extra power to do some of both types of damage. It doesn’t make a build an effective hybrid. The problem with taking the power triad stats with conditions is generally that you can only trait for one, so even if I take grieving on a more or less condition build my power damage will be jack . That’s why the only hybrid I think can work rn is some type of guard because of increased symbol strike damage and the fact that many burning skills will do decent damage even without pure condition damage stats..

Oh I agree you need to add stats to do significant power damage. I'm just saying there is "pure" power and "hybrid" condi. "Pure" condi doesn't really exist even though people will say things like "condi only needs one stat to do damage" as though it wasn't a hybrid in the first place. The amulets in PvP for condi like Carrion also include significant power damage, and Wizards/Grieving take that even further (although Grieving means less spike damage on a true glass cannon so it is the most questionable viability-wise). 
 

I ran the numbers yesterday in WvW and in PvP and with my stats (biggest difference is precision between WvW and PvP) it's between 40-60 (WvW) and 60-40 (PvP) for the ratio of condi:power damage. In WvW it was closer to 50-50 but cleanse (against players) tended towards 40-60. In PvP the base versus golem was 60-40, so I'd expect more 50-50 in cases where moderate cleanse are involved. 
 

The numbers vary a lot depending on whether the target cleanses. This also didn't consider whether the damage was "good" by whatever metric. However, the damage was enough to kill people and in WvW included a 1v2 versus a tempest and guardian (still hit 40% condi damage in that fight, don't know how). 

[Shao.7236]

The only thing that's overtuned with conditions right now is Poison modifiers having no counter. It's also accessible by everyone which qualify it's effects even more to be affected by Resistance like it used to.

[Locuz.2651]

The thing i love about threads like this is that its one big generalisation. Plz...for the love of god explain and specify. Name specs, situations etc. 

 

The only condi related spec that is overtuned is core necro. 

 

One can argue thats more of a general necro issue with necros being to tanky for the dmg they can do. Once the tankiness is fixed (imo by reducing shroud gains) (core) necro will be fine. 

 

Of all the other (non necro) condi specs only fire weaver is strong. But thats not perse due to his condi output, but more about his sustain.

 

So what other sh*t do we have?

 

Condi thief? Which is really weak vs heavy power based spike dmg like sic em soulbeasts, power heralds, DP daredevil etc.

 

Burn guard? Which is really weak to any type of focus fire. A spec that only works if the opposing team forgets about them and sits mid point in aoe.

 

Condi ranger variants. Good as duelist but doesnt fare well vs other sidenoders like weaver or valk ranger. It does well vs holo. Its typically very slow and not that good in teamfights. Works a bit like burn guard in team fights. Only good when left alone. 

 

Condi rev: good when you build a team around it, which is never the case in soloq. 0 Chase and kite potential so you need ppl to support you non stop to make it work.  In 99% of situations in soloq, renegade or power herald is better. 

 

So those 4 have 1 thing in common ... they dont work as well as meta builds when focussed.  

 

The only condi builds that do well when focussed are fireweaver and core necro. Thats why ppl see them as the only viable condi specs for soloq.  

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Locuz.2651 said:

The thing i love about threads like this is that its one big generalisation. Plz...for the love of god explain and specify. Name specs, situations etc. 

 

The only condi related spec that is overtuned is core necro. 

 

One can argue thats more of a general necro issue with necros being to tanky for the dmg they can do. Once the tankiness is fixed (imo by reducing shroud gains) (core) necro will be fine. 

 

Of all the other (non necro) condi specs only fire weaver is strong. But thats not perse due to his condi output, but more about his sustain.

 

So what other sh*t do we have?

 

Condi thief? Which is really weak vs heavy power based spike dmg like sic em soulbeasts, power heralds, DP daredevil etc.

 

Burn guard? Which is really weak to any type of focus fire. A spec that only works if the opposing team forgets about them and sits mid point in aoe.

 

Condi ranger variants. Good as duelist but doesnt fare well vs other sidenoders like weaver or valk ranger. It does well vs holo. Its typically very slow and not that good in teamfights. Works a bit like burn guard in team fights. Only good when left alone. 

 

Condi rev: good when you build a team around it, which is never the case in soloq. 0 Chase and kite potential so you need ppl to support you non stop to make it work.  In 99% of situations in soloq, renegade or power herald is better. 

 

So those 4 have 1 thing in common ... they dont work as well as meta builds when focussed.  

 

The only condi builds that do well when focussed are fireweaver and core necro. Thats why ppl see them as the only viable condi specs for soloq.  

Condi engie: <unrecoverable error>

[Axl.8924]

I got a question for  you guys since you seem to know about firebrand. Why is it not really meta or seen in SPVP? is it? what keeps it from showing up? Can it burn people down still?

[jdawgie.1835]

On 9/5/2021 at 1:10 AM, Hannelore.8153 said:

I don't know why this keeps popping up that condi is meta. Its not meta and never has been in the history of PvP, and only for a brief time during WvW after HoT release with the Blood Reaper meta.

I dont agree with OP. However, this statement is absolutely one of the falsest things I have ever seen on the forums. Condi has never been meta in the history of sPvP? I not sure how you typed that. 

[Arheundel.6451]

This thread still going after dunno weeks? The way people are perpetuating their own delusions is cringeworthy, who are you even trying to convince and for what purpose?

By all means keep enjoying your wall of aoe spam for what is worth, nobody cares anymore not even the devs, nobody about to take away your "skill intensive" gameplay don't worry....but it would be time to end this charade, how many more "ezport champions" must show up telling the OP, how much of a noob he is?

[Sindrener.1592]

5v5 meta with spec/classtack will be core guard supp, power herald or nade holo, drd dp power thief then 2 necs. Could see 1 nec / prot holo. 

 

is this condi meta? 🤷‍♂️ Ranked in eu is a big mix of things, i wouldnt go close to saying its a condi meta at all or a pure power meta. Its a mix if anything.

 

Most necs in eu ranked play reaper, not seen any rev spec beside power heralds and maybe 1 shiro renegade. Lots of nade holos, dp thieves (power) barely any thief left doing pd condi in eu. Mirage sometimes (condi) but not very often. Misha/rip/helseth pretty much.

 

Core rangers(power) and some power slb. Boyce only condi slb ive played against in eu and was just meme. Seen fire s/f weav today and FA weaver as well.

 

So idk about this heavy condi meta we are supposed to be in? 
 

And reading @RedAvenged.5217 talking about mATS made my day. Thank you 🤣

Edited September 9, 2021 by bluri.2653

[RedAvenged.5217]

23 minutes ago, bluri.2653 said:

5v5 meta with spec/classtack will be core guard supp, power herald or nade holo, drd dp power thief then 2 necs. Could see 1 nec / prot holo. 

 

is this condi meta? 🤷‍♂️ Ranked in eu is a big mix of things, i wouldnt go close to saying its a condi meta at all or a pure power meta. Its a mix if anything.

 

Most necs in eu ranked play reaper, not seen any rev spec beside power heralds and maybe 1 shiro renegade. Lots of nade holos, dp thieves (power) barely any thief left doing pd condi in eu. Mirage sometimes (condi) but not very often. Misha/rip/helseth pretty much.

 

Core rangers(power) and some power slb. Boyce only condi slb ive played against in eu and was just meme. Seen fire s/f weav today and FA weaver as well.

 

So idk about this heavy condi meta we are supposed to be in? 
 

And reading @RedAvenged.5217 talking about mATS made my day. Thank you 🤣

Np.

na ranked meta is alittle different. Some p/d thief’s left and 1 pp condi thief in plat3 who occasionally duos 2 condi thief. Only a few mirages but also a few condi core side noders. Ranger is half valk and half condi either soulbeast or core(core is more team fight oriented) - there is literally like 1 power soulbeast on all of Na. Necro is a mix mostly reaper though. Quiet a few condi dhs/core guards but often just power or support guards. Engi, rev and ele are the same as you described. War is a cluster kitten of bad builds only thing worth noting is an occasional side node war...

[CroTiger.7819]

With the removal of expertise in pvp 5 out of 14 condis existing are same effect on power and condition builds. That is what none talks about and is huge issue and makes condition builds just like scrapped power dmg which can be cleansed while you can have same debuffs from condis like weaknes, vuln, chill same on any power build (scourge is best example). Those debuffs is what makes conditions different from power and reason you play condis at all. Now even one of 5 dmg condis which is poison have same debuff on power or condi which is huge and ppl still think condis are op... no they are not its just that game is full of non dmg condis because their utility works and lasts same on power and condition builds which shouldn t be the case. Change to bring back EXPERTISE and reduce base duration of such condis like weaknes, chill would do the work. Result is: 

1: no potential condi spikes from 1 player (its not case anymore anyway)

2: taunts, fears  lasts less on power and less cc ingame

3: less chill, cripple imob etc because base duration is reduced if no expertise is taken

4: less weakness, blind, vulnerbility, poison debuffs because power builds with no expertise can t upkeep them

5: condition builds won t be that bad because those debuffs would be possible to upkeep only on condition builds so it would lead to more defined roles and actual diversity because you can t have all in one

Currently condition dmg builds are just downgrade in teamfights and even on duels they are counter wars. EXPERTISE is what makes condition build different but since it is gone and all the base condi duration is huge on both condi and power builds we have this situation where everyone poisons for ages and even worse spam pulsing weaknes imob chill etc. I don t see much point in playing conditions if main thing like their debuffs are same on power and condi builds. If some power builds rally on snares etc just makes power amulet and add 360 expertise to it but don t make few power builds have all in their kit. Boons, conditions and cc is still in beta state in 2021 gw2 pvp design wise.

[greedywholesome.9081]

Condition damage does well in.... open world roaming PVE. 

 

The issues with fire weaver is sustain. For necro, it's the tankiness, but raw condi damage itself is really not a threat. Minion mancer necros literally have 3 life bars that could eat up our entire combo rotation if not landed properly. 

 

Little to no damage CC's followed up with a heavy burst is far more effective. However, it's not as appealing to a lot of players due to high risk high reward vs tanky builds that are low risk high reward

 

FYI... I've been seeing fewer fire weavers and more dps tempests - in ranked. ATs would still have them. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by greedywholesome.9081

[Leonidrex.5649]

19 hours ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

Np.

na ranked meta is alittle different. Some p/d thief’s left and 1 pp condi thief in plat3 who occasionally duos 2 condi thief. Only a few mirages but also a few condi core side noders. Ranger is half valk and half condi either soulbeast or core(core is more team fight oriented) - there is literally like 1 power soulbeast on all of Na. Necro is a mix mostly reaper though. Quiet a few condi dhs/core guards but often just power or support guards. Engi, rev and ele are the same as you described. War is a cluster kitten of bad builds only thing worth noting is an occasional side node war...

out of curiosity what condi ranger builds people play on na? on eu im like the only one so I cant even see what other people are playing around with, and I dont want to spend 500 more games trolling my team by changing kitten that doesnt work 😜

[RedAvenged.5217]

17 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

out of curiosity what condi ranger builds people play on na? on eu im like the only one so I cant even see what other people are playing around with, and I dont want to spend 500 more games trolling my team by changing kitten that doesnt work 😜

There’s an actual occasional “poison beast” but it’s mostly trap builds on either core, druid or soulbeast. Traps on soulbeast is kind of just a more aggressive poison beast, most play core or druid though- which by taking an extra healing trait line allows for technically more healing than soulbeast and also since you are all traps you do more dps and also have aoe for ‘team fights’.

 

since you are going traps that means you have less stability and cannot use stances to get out of tricky situations and also less stun breaks. This means it’s more likely to get memed then say afking on sides as a poison beast, but it’s raw healing and damage is nice and it can win 1v1s and dps if you are smart on it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

22 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

There’s an actual occasional “poison beast” but it’s mostly trap builds on either core, druid or soulbeast. Traps on soulbeast is kind of just a more aggressive poison beast, most play core or druid though- which by taking an extra healing trait line allows for technically more healing than soulbeast and also since you are all traps you do more dps and also have aoe for ‘team fights’.

 

since you are going traps that means you have less stability and cannot use stances to get out of tricky situations and also less stun breaks. This means it’s more likely to get memed then say afking on sides as a poison beast, but it’s raw healing and damage is nice and it can win 1v1s and dps if you are smart on it.

ah then I tried it, I found trapper condi ranger only worked as roamer. For sides I prefer bleed oriented soulbeast with skirmishing, much more damage, and 0 reliance on pet. all the while having more ways to remove CC, having just 1 sucks

[RedAvenged.5217]

On 9/10/2021 at 2:24 PM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

ah then I tried it, I found trapper condi ranger only worked as roamer. For sides I prefer bleed oriented soulbeast with skirmishing, much more damage, and 0 reliance on pet. all the while having more ways to remove CC, having just 1 sucks

It’s definitely not a roamer- it’s a dps. The build is a lot like burn dh, which in fact started as a side node build. Dh happens to have different mechanics though- basically a lot of guards stuff is bursty such as burn and all the blocks. However this build has a lot of sustain dmg and sustain making it seem much different.

 

huges advantages of this build over trap dh- insanely low trap cd, a lot of more sustain damage and actual sustain also it has high base hp so it can afford other amulets and works better with all sorts of mixed stats if one chooses to take it...

Edited September 12, 2021 by RedAvenged.5217