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Is wvw pve now?


Psycoprophet.8107

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What happened to this mode? 

Everytime I play it (na shiverpeaks) all it is is zergs running over empty keeps purposely avoiding any other zergs. U roam and see other zergs of the enemy doing the same lmao, only time they fight is if forced. Is this fun for the majority of players, is this why u play wvw these days?

Such a shame.

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It's too easy to fail at commanding these days.

Who knows how to handle the giant warrior bubble, for example?

Fights are over in a flash - it's not like it used to be. 

 

Commanders are reluctant to tag up these days because of these reasons.

 

Defending against a small-to-medium group is too easy (attacking with a small-to-medium group is too hard) and defending against a full map blob is too hard (attacking with a full map blob is too easy). 

 

It's all down to power creep, but in he guise of ever more powerful specs.

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10 hours ago, Svarty.8019 said:

It's too easy to fail at commanding these days.

Who knows how to handle the giant warrior bubble, for example?

Fights are over in a flash - it's not like it used to be. 

 

Commanders are reluctant to tag up these days because of these reasons.

 

Defending against a small-to-medium group is too easy (attacking with a small-to-medium group is too hard) and defending against a full map blob is too hard (attacking with a full map blob is too easy). 

 

It's all down to power creep, but in he guise of ever more powerful specs.

To be honest I understand all that and I agree with that, and i can see how it would be daunting being a commander leading a large group. I myself wish blob fights had far less red rings being thrown around but that said the fights are at least imo the most fun aspect of wvw whether it's a blob fight or small scale. Maybe it's because I've never been one to worry about filling the reward tracks etc and am just there for the fights but running around steamrolling undefended keeps/camps seems just so boring to me Haha. Each their own though, was just wondering why the mode is how it is and ur answer seems like a pretty good one.

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It is a culmination of problems.
Taking a sieged and tiered objective is time consuming and not fun. Most of what you're doing is dancing around beneath every type of siege fire and AOE imaginable while defenders furiously press 1 on their Arrow Carts. It isn't engaging and it makes everyone want the ordeal to be over with as soon as possible. That means when the gate/wall is down, everyone rushes the Lord instead of drawing out the fight.

Some people could be hitting the Lord, some taking out siege, some fighting in/around the objective, etc. Break up the combat, make things interesting and strategic. But because Mounts and Tactics exist, doing this can be quite difficult unless you have a co-ordinated group or a larger group than the enemy.
Basically, you're punished for taking your time and the effort isn't worth the payoff. You spend longer trying to get inside than you do anything else, and the longest part is the least enjoyable.

But beyond that, I don't know why so many people are so combat avoidant. I understand some of it, but the players that straight up will not even try to fight, sit on siege for hours at a time, or the groups that throw their bodies at a structure over and over just trying to brute force the capture, are just a total enigma to me.
I can imagine any number of reasons for some of these things, it's not that I don't understand some people aren't confident fighters, maybe they're distracted IRL, etc. and so on. But the frequency with which this happens just makes me wonder the point of coming to WvW if you're just going to avoid combat.

tldr; I think I get it but I really don't. 

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22 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

it's not that I don't understand some people aren't confident fighters, maybe they're distracted IRL, etc. and so on. But the frequency with which this happens just makes me wonder the point of coming to WvW if you're just going to avoid combat.

tldr; I think I get it but I really don't. 

Well IMO Tyria is not a virtual world.  There is no need for towns or travel.  Everything else is instanced off like dungeons, fractals, and raids.. not an actual part of Tyria.

 

So in a way WvW is the true roleplaying game, all that other junk is for horizontal grinding.. which is the part that makes me wonder why people play it.

 

At least sitting in a keep they can chat all day and that's its own type of roleplay.

 

But what they really need is you there frontlining for them.  Yolo for them for a week or two you will see an improvement.  But you on Mag so you can chill and it won't matter.

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1 hour ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

the fights are at least imo the most fun aspect of wvw whether it's a blob fight or small scale. Maybe it's because I've never been one to worry about filling the reward tracks etc and am just there for the fights but running around steamrolling undefended keeps/camps seems just so boring to me Haha.

I think a lot of people aren't conceiving the grand scheme of things. The fact that your small actions in taking a camp allow you to fight longer inside a keep, for example.

 

Having an upgraded structure used to mean that enemies would have a hard time capping it if you have a few defenders. The fighting inside keeps is SUPPOSED to favour the defender because; 1. They're less organised and 2. They're weaker/smaller.  They're either buying time for the cavalry or making a last stand.

 

1 hour ago, Shroud.2307 said:

It is a culmination of problems.
Taking a sieged and tiered objective is time consuming and not fun. [..]


Some people could be hitting the Lord, some taking out siege, some fighting in/around the objective, etc. Break up the combat, make things interesting and strategic.[..]

 

But because Mounts and Tactics exist, doing this can be quite difficult unless you have a co-ordinated group or a larger group than the enemy.[..]

 

just makes me wonder the point of coming to WvW if you're just going to avoid combat.

tldr; I think I get it but I really don't. 

I can have a go at this for you...

Splitting up groups is bad when the main damage control method is to abuse the target cap. That's why you can't "Break up the combat". Why is that the case? Because of one-shot builds - damage remains too high across the board, even after Anet nerfed it, and I think nobody believes the expac won't exacerbate that problem (both of the previous ones did).

 

I agree that there are some advantages that the defenders need for the reasons above your quote, but laying the blame on Mounts and Tactics is questionable - I think a bigger issue is Skills/Abilities. It appears that when PoF was designed, there was zero regard given to the impact the new powers would have on WvW. It turns out the the impact was enormous and horrific. 

 

Although the defenders can have masses of siege, giant map-sized groups can bunker ANYTHING these days. So you can't justify nerfing all the defenses. It's already much easier to cap things since the developers nerfed walls.

 

People play WvW for many reasons, if you go on voice you'll hear people of all ages, races, genders and disabilities playing together towards a common goal, having fun and laughing together. It's a genuine community - that's why many people play it. We're not all man-children who hide in attics and smash keyboards when we lose elite fighters.

Edited by Svarty.8019
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It feels like a lot of newer players lately, and likely a lot of people playing the mode more while what feels like half a blob sometimes figuring things out. If that's the case, I think that's awesome and hope the game, and players, can retain a good portion of that. I have seen a lot of new players are those coming from other similar games and seem to pick up most stuff at a good pace and I've actually been seeing some fights with a lot of new players have better use of team work and utility then I'd expect. Still, until you run into a nuance, it's not on your mind yet, and a newer player is going to get pulled off a few walls or get lost in a map hopping scramble or any number of things that will make them want to stick with a tag and play the mode a bit. A lot of the advice I see on here and on the reddit sub has been something like "maybe tag up a bit see if you can get something going", so there might be more tags figuring things out also. 

 

It can be frustrating sometimes, but any side can hit the other. Maye everyone is expecting the other side knows what they're going to do and are waiting to defend themselves because it might be less pressure than attacking. If it's just complacent players and gatherers then I hope updates and changes can adjust things enough to get lively again. If it's a lot of newer players, best we can do let them see stuff done properly and that a wipe isn't the end of the world, but constant faceplanting or bunkering can be the end of a night. 

Edited by kash.9213
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4 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

It is a culmination of problems.
Taking a sieged and tiered objective is time consuming and not fun. Most of what you're doing is dancing around beneath every type of siege fire and AOE imaginable while defenders furiously press 1 on their Arrow Carts. It isn't engaging and it makes everyone want the ordeal to be over with as soon as possible. That means when the gate/wall is down, everyone rushes the Lord instead of drawing out the fight.

 

It's suppose to be challenging taking a higher tiered and bigger objective, that's the point of upgrading, to make sure the battle lasts so the defenders have time to show up. Otherwise you end up with eotm ring around the rosy backcapping stuff every 5 mins. If you don't want to fight in those conditions.... then don't? Why are you fighting over something you don't want to take?

 

Oh you want to draw people out for a fight? well there's plenty of ways to do that without needing to park yourself up on a lords room. Know what's an even bigger fight killer? taking a t3 keep from the enemy who doesn't have matching numbers, so they leave the map to not deal with your zerg or back cap when no one is around.

 

Quote

 

Some people could be hitting the Lord, some taking out siege, some fighting in/around the objective, etc. Break up the combat, make things interesting and strategic. But because Mounts and Tactics exist, doing this can be quite difficult unless you have a co-ordinated group or a larger group than the enemy.
Basically, you're punished for taking your time and the effort isn't worth the payoff. You spend longer trying to get inside than you do anything else, and the longest part is the least enjoyable.

 

 

Well apparently anet agreed and decided they wanted people to fight in lords instead, so they nerfed siege, gate and wall strength.... only they took lord banner res a long time ago, and in order to res you need to be out of combat. So what are you left with? waiting for defenders to show up, only they also don't care if you're hitting a t0 structure that got papered 10 mins ago, they'll just take a couple people to back cap it in 5 mins anyways.

 

The whole process feels unrewarding because you're just fighting over points that no one cares about, but I'm sure if gold was involved everyone would suddenly be happy.

 

Quote

But beyond that, I don't know why so many people are so combat avoidant. I understand some of it, but the players that straight up will not even try to fight, sit on siege for hours at a time, or the groups that throw their bodies at a structure over and over just trying to brute force the capture, are just a total enigma to me.

 

I can imagine any number of reasons for some of these things, it's not that I don't understand some people aren't confident fighters, maybe they're distracted IRL, etc. and so on. But the frequency with which this happens just makes me wonder the point of coming to WvW if you're just going to avoid combat.

tldr; I think I get it but I really don't. 

 

There are obviously some people who are not confident in themselves or their class to retreat in time if they have to, some people won't push unless they see everyone else is pushing, and then there are those who have a brain and won't push 10 into 30 because that's just feeding bags.... and then you have the guild of 10 push into the 30, get one pushed, and then leave the map.

 

Now if a small guild shows up with their pug zerg of 50 to defend and won't face your guild zerg of 30 unless under heavy siege, ok maybe you might have a point there, but you and I both know pug zergs are hard to control and rely on. But you showed up at their house, you play under their rules, if you don't want that, then don't attack that house and try to draw them out somewhere else, not move in and then complain the entire time, it's not on them to give you a pleasant and enjoyable time while you're attacking their objective.

 

Speaking of avoiding combat. Every "fight guild" is looking for fights, but they rarely ever bother to hook up with actual other fight guilds regularly every night, other than the rare gvg's, they just roam around looking for pugs to fight.

 

But you'd think after nine years that guilds would have each other on the hot lines, hey man you looking for fights tonight? let's go spend two hours in blue and fight! Nahhh bro we missing one scrapper so we don't have our comp tonight, and I gotta cap this camp in the nw and then take the empty bay when you're not around, then we will be roaming in the ruins waiting for scout calls on you at hills, and then we'll try to stealth bomb into you while you're at hills cata spot, if you win we map hop, see you randomly two times in two hours, laters!

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7 hours ago, SLOTH.5231 said:

Scourage and Firebrand ruined WvW. It’s just an AOE spam fest now. No thinking involved just button mashing. 

what a joke statement dude xD

 

the feb2020 nerfs really messed up a lot. since dmg got removed, CC spam reigns and stuff that isn't bulky feels more bulky. numbers count more, still only good groups can fight overnumbers. before, u didn't need the same skill level to kill things in unequal group fights. which i pretty bad. waste of time to grind kills on unecessary single wannabe rambos, who think they are good for clouding left and right.

 

i 100% understand the thread creator.

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Lately it seems to be the total opposite of what is described in the OP, during my sessions anyway. Both yesterday and Saturday it seemed like the whole time we were either running into big zergs/blobs or going to defend points that were being attacked by big zergs/blobs. Yesterday especially, we kept getting into massive 3 way fights where each side seemed to have 50 people each (then again a sea of people starts to look that way regardless of real numbers).

Any time we did end up going to take a Keep or something, it seems like a zerg/blob always either ran in defence or teleported in via EWP. It was awesome, because all the packed fights in different objective points were fun and great bags (even for a horrible player like me), but it was a strange change of pace from maybe 2 months ago and beyond.....previously we'd encounter fights but it wasn't as full on in every map we went to.

Edited by Pacificterror.7805
typo
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If you hop on a server discord you could find those fighting guilds, but they run during their own raid times. Not usually an all day thing. Hopefully with alliances and the rework of the reward system we could see a nicer population of those wanting to work together. The downside right now is most people come into WvW for gifts of battle or if they have and xp event. I would really love if more people were inclined to join discord or at least want to play WvW for the fights. Might just come off as complaining from me, but I can agree that a lot of people will go into WvW just to get dailies and dip out or go their to farm their GoB and then head out. The rewards aren't worth enough for someone to stay there long enough to actually want to learn proper fighting mechanics and fighting in either a zerg or havoc group 🥰 I'm excited to see how alliances will develop our current state of WvW since a lot of fightmanders are excited to be around a community of people that want to PPK as well 😄

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6 hours ago, Amarok.2147 said:

The downside right now is most people come into WvW for gifts of battle or if they have and xp event. I would really love if more people were inclined to join discord or at least want to play WvW for the fights. Might just come off as complaining from me, but I can agree that a lot of people will go into WvW just to get dailies and dip out or go their to farm their GoB and then head out. 

Lol. The amount of players playing WvW "normally" probably outweigh GoB farmers 10 to 1. At least.

All we see from the "fighters" is the hypocrisy of standing on their tall piediestal complaining about PPT and how disgusting everyone not there solely for fights is, when all they do is rely on those people doing PPT to keep them in a tier that have fights or they'll move to a world which have better PPTers.

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To reply to this, there's still a slight between pure PPkers and those that alternate between PPK and PPT. I don't enjoy PPTing, but I know I have to if I want to stay in a certain tier or if I want to face a certain tag the following week. Then I'll switch to a mix, starting with retaking home bl, then going to whoever is in 1st and going after their t3, t2, t1, etc and flipping to ours. I think it's important to have a mix or else you're affecting the game for everyone in a meh way. I'll K Train, but I'll prioritize wherever the enemy can defend first than simply going for something paper or against a dead time server since it's not as fun, at least not personally.

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On 9/5/2021 at 12:47 AM, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

What happened to this mode? 

Everytime I play it (na shiverpeaks) all it is is zergs running over empty keeps purposely avoiding any other zergs. U roam and see other zergs of the enemy doing the same lmao, only time they fight is if forced. Is this fun for the majority of players, is this why u play wvw these days?

Such a shame.

 

That's only NA WvW, but not WvW in general.

 

In EU a zerg does only start to avoid another zerg if it got destroyed like 5 times already - and then it's understandable.

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12 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Lol. The amount of players playing WvW "normally" probably outweigh GoB farmers 10 to 1. At least.

All we see from the "fighters" is the hypocrisy of standing on their tall piediestal complaining about PPT and how disgusting everyone not there solely for fights is, when all they do is rely on those people doing PPT to keep them in a tier that have fights or they'll move to a world which have better PPTers.

yeah no. u could just remove PPT ticks completely from the game, and make the score random. the gamemode as it is would probably not even change, because ppt score stuff happens randomly by bored pvE blobs 24/7. ofc they will try to avoid any fighting whatsoever...

 

the real competitive largescale players became rather rare anyways. simply bc it's quite boring without much to fight against. and the game mode's sofar been pretty stale, for years. then the really big time unfunny damage nerfs, making it even less fun and complicated to get single kills even.

 

the competitive fighting players still carry the servers. randoms have zero dps nor sustain, usually.

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Honestly, it really depends on the server.

If you are looking for fights, find a fight server, and usually fights should not quickly be over, that really depends on the players of said server, if all you have is damage scrappers, DH, weavers and maybe a few too many rangers or maybe even condi, then you are obviously lacking cleanse/healing/barrier/stab etc. just in general sustain. Which means capping keeps will be impossible since people are 1 push zerkers. (Either you finish enemy in 1 push, or your people insta drop from the lack of boons/healing). It should be extremely possible to cleanse the condis on you, and in general sustain damage (marauder instead of zerker), which is probably what is lacking if your fights are that quick.

 

Also NA seems a bit weaker than EU these days, But I have not been in many NA server, so that might vary.

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WvW is a dead game anyway. 90% of the servers avoiding any real competition like fights. At least the majority of a server. All they are doing is capturing towers, running across an boarder only to cap the north camp and teleporting back to spawn. 

 

Or the favorite:  capping SM, instantly building on all gates 5 arrow carts, trebs, catapults and then hiding in it with 80 people the whole day. 

 

 

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