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Something's Got to Give.


Svarty.8019

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HISTORY

Layers of Complexity. Each expansion brings another layer of complexity in the guise of specialisations.

 

When the game was new, there were but eight classes.

Guardian,, WarriorEngineer, Ranger, ThiefElementalist, MesmerNecromancer

Players didn't understand anything at first, but as time went on, they L'd2P.

In PvP, in particular, players began to master one or two classes, eventually learning how to beat the others - they had to play ALL the classes to learn their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Heart of Thorns added a layer of complexity. Novelty was poured upon the players like confetti - a wonderful bonanza! Or was it?

The same PvP players had to now learn another ten classes (hello Revenant) in order to master their game-mode:

Dragon Hunter, Berserker, Scrapper, Druid, Tempest, Chronomancer and Reaper.

Path of Fire ... you know where this is going now. Another nine classes...

and now End of Dragons.

A new player comes to the competitive modes in Guild Wars 2 with THIRTY-SIX classes to learn in order to have a chance. I think that's too many.

 

Is it any wonder PvP is in a state at the moment? The Skills and Balance developers are spread thinly enough as it is, and now they're having to constantly work on that many classes.

 

So I'm suggesting the retirement of some old classes, just abandon them. BUT let the players know you're doing it!

Edited by Svarty.8019
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3 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

The only profession (class) that has been added has been the revenant.  The rest are just elite builds of existing professions. 

That's right.

 

  

4 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Of course it would have to be one of the expansion classes as core is just that…. Core.

 

So..,  What if you remove the only expansion someone has?  Are you going to give them another one to offset their loss?

That's a good point. Perhaps another alternative is possible - a simplification of the combat system - to aid both players and maintenance developers?

Edited by Svarty.8019
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If you want to reduce complexity, then extirpating the Asuran race would be the simplest solution. Just delete them. Who knows how many more world ending macguffins those little shark people are going to pull out of their bottoms in the name of science? Just look at Taimi, she's a walking, talking, realisation of Deus Ex Machina. Life would be so much simpler without the Asura.

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37 minutes ago, Svarty.8019 said:

HISTORY

Layers of Complexity. Each expansion brings another layer of complexity in the guise of specialisations.

 

When the game was new, there were but eight classes.

Guardian,, WarriorEngineer, Ranger, ThiefElementalist, MesmerNecromancer

Players didn't understand anything at first, but as time went on, they L'd2P.

In PvP, in particular, players began to master one or two classes, eventually learning how to beat the others - they had to play ALL the classes to learn their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Heart of Thorns added a layer of complexity. Novelty was poured upon the players like confetti - a wonderful bonanza! Or was it?

The same PvP players had to now learn another ten classes (hello Revenant) in order to master their game-mode:

Dragon Hunter, Berserker, Scrapper, Druid, Tempest, Chronomancer and Reaper.

Path of Fire ... you know where this is going now. Another nine classes...

and now End of Dragons.

A new player comes to the competitive modes in Guild Wars 2 with THIRTY-SIX classes to learn in order to have a chance. I think that's too many.

 

Is it any wonder PvP is in a state at the moment? The Skills and Balance developers are spread thinly enough as it is, and now they're having to constantly work on that many classes.

 

So I'm suggesting the retirement of some old classes, just abandon them. BUT let the players know you're doing it!

All classes have a simple way to play them.

Why not just play one of those instead of arguing for a loss of choice and alternatives for the rest of us?

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33 minutes ago, Svarty.8019 said:

That's right.

 

  

That's a good point. Perhaps another alternative is possible - a simplification of the combat system - to aid both players and maintenance developers?

They’ve already ‘simplified’ trait lines post release.

 

if the original system was intact, the complexity would be significant/exponentially greater.

 

also… like before, people would scream that they were dumbing the game down.   I am not sure they would want that perspective at this stage of the game, noting that the current system has been in place for several years now.

 

they MIGHT be able to pull off a simplification by maybe taking the most common (insert  adept, master, and grandmaster,) trait lines from each class and making them a fixed item,  like the minor and major traits.  It would decrease the selection from 3 to 2 for each line.
 

I wouldn’t want that, but it may be a way to tweak the complexity.

 

And those that are hitting the semantics of class versus specialization..  Find some work to do.. You’ve GOT to be bored to throw that out there.  🤦‍♂️😉 

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You say complexity, I say variety. It's one of the more exciting aspects of GW2 where you're not stuck playing the same build as every other player out there. Yes difficult to understand perhaps, but mastering anything is difficult by nature (for most of us). To truly be competitive in a game you need to spend time and learn things. I find out something new quite regularly in GW2 and it keeps it from going stale. If they remove this kind of stuff the game loses some appeal.

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Do you really think elite specs change a profession so much that it's comparable to a new one being added? Admittedly I don't play PvP so my experience is just with WvW and PvE but to me they don't seem that extreme (note: when I replied this was in General Discussion, not the PvP section). A tempest or a weaver for example has a few more options than a core elementalist but it's not like they play completely differently. They still have the same health, use the same armour and the majority of their skills and traits are the same.

 

It seems to me that if you object to elite specs you'd also object to any other additions - like new weapons or skills being delivered by another method (which could also be even more complicated because if they're not tied to specialisations there could be even more combinations available). Unless you really want to see no new combat abilities added in any form I can't see how this would work.

 

4 hours ago, Dante.1763 said:

Why do players argue that those count as classes then? Cause ive seen that argument before on here.

 

I was going to say it might be due to a lack of equivalent systems in other games, making it hard for newer players to think of something they consider to be a "universal" terms for them (aka what it was called in another game they've played) - like calling professions 'classes'. But once I started thinking about it I realised a lot of games do have similar systems and at least two I found (World of Warcraft and the Dragon Age series) also call them specialisations. The other option I can think of would be 'sub-classes' which D&D among others uses.

 

Other than that my best guess is it's because the game replaces the profession name and icon with one for the elite spec and players will often refer to them that way as well, giving the impression that it's a completely new profession rather than a variation on what you had before.

Edited by Danikat.8537
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While I don't think elite specs necessarily qualify as entire new professions, I suspect they were the wrong way to go about adding complexity to the game, and I would argue they devalue the core professions. Elite specs are almost always better to play than core professions, to the extent that you rarely see anyone playing level 80+ content as anything but an elite spec.

 

I think I would have been happier if they had followed the original game's model of adding a brand new profession (or two) with every expansion.

 

I suspect this would also have limited power creep and the invalidation of earlier content.

 

As it stands, ANet are gradually painting themselves in to a corner with the current situation.

Tying weapon unlocks to elite specs limits how many they can eventually have.

But more importantly, it also devalues the original core mechanics of certain professions (for example, Warrior, one of whose core features was wider access to weapons than other professions). The more that weapons become homogeneous, the bigger the impact on professions that were designed with increased weapon variety in mind.

 

Entirely new professions instead of elite specs would have side-stepped this.

Variety for existing professions could have also been added in the good ol' GW1 way of simply adding more skills in each expansion.

 

I personally think this would have lead to a more balanced game now with less power creep, but unfortunately, it's impossible to undo given the way they decided to go.

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The difference between fighting Core Mesmer and Chrono is understanding a single new mechanic (Continuum Rift) and like two or three skill animations.

 

If you already have experience with Core Thief, all you *really* need to play OK against Daredevil is "Their Steal is 600 range but unblockable and they can cleanse Chill/Immobilize by dodging."

 

Et cetera.

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1 hour ago, Svarty.8019 said:

HISTORY

Layers of Complexity. Each expansion brings another layer of complexity in the guise of specialisations.

 

When the game was new, there were but eight classes.

Guardian,, WarriorEngineer, Ranger, ThiefElementalist, MesmerNecromancer

Players didn't understand anything at first, but as time went on, they L'd2P.

In PvP, in particular, players began to master one or two classes, eventually learning how to beat the others - they had to play ALL the classes to learn their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Heart of Thorns added a layer of complexity. Novelty was poured upon the players like confetti - a wonderful bonanza! Or was it?

The same PvP players had to now learn another ten classes (hello Revenant) in order to master their game-mode:

Dragon Hunter, Berserker, Scrapper, Druid, Tempest, Chronomancer and Reaper.

Path of Fire ... you know where this is going now. Another nine classes...

and now End of Dragons.

A new player comes to the competitive modes in Guild Wars 2 with THIRTY-SIX classes to learn in order to have a chance. I think that's too many.

 

Is it any wonder PvP is in a state at the moment? The Skills and Balance developers are spread thinly enough as it is, and now they're having to constantly work on that many classes.

 

So I'm suggesting the retirement of some old classes, just abandon them. BUT let the players know you're doing it!

 

I understand where you are coming from but I believe you should look at the number of evades, stun breaks, instant casts, and telegraphed skills that a class has and how many combinations work instead of looking at it as "36 classes"

 

But yes this game's infrastructure in pvp has been iffy. How the hell is a new player supposed to be able to keep up when there is too much instant cast, evades, and defensive cds/passives in the game that you have to pay attention to before you kill someone.

 

Launch had a good premise. I will agree with that.

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2 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

While I don't think elite specs necessarily qualify as entire new professions, I suspect they were the wrong way to go about adding complexity to the game, and I would argue they devalue the core professions. Elite specs are almost always better to play than core professions, to the extent that you rarely see anyone playing level 80+ content as anything but an elite spec.

That's  because an elite spec is just a trait line with a few extra features, and it only needs to be better than *the third-best core trait line for any role* to be worth taking.

 

For example, Weaver doesn't have to outclass Fire AND Air AND Arcana for DPS, it just needs to be better than one of them to turn most Ele DPS builds into Weavers. (Or to have better synergy such that you're better off doing Fire+Arcana+Weaver or Fire+Air+Weaver or Air+Arcana+Weaver over straight Fire+Air+Arcana.)

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5 hours ago, Svarty.8019 said:

HISTORY

Layers of Complexity

Yes. There's layers of complexity.

 

Quote

THIRTY-SIX

This is a comparable roster to most mainstream fighting games, and two thirds of them have the same root gameplay. I think people can manage.

Quote

Is it any wonder PvP is in a state at the moment? The Skills and Balance developers are spread thinly enough as it is, and now they're having to constantly work on that many classes.

 

They're spread thinly because they spent a period of time not focused on GW2 as their core product to ship, and are now spending a period of time shipping an expansion at what appears to be breakneck speed. 

Yes, PvP deserves a closer eye on it. Yes, there's going to be additional complexity because of needing to balance all of the classes, and itll be compounded if the balance isnt reasonably acceptable before those classes are shipped. Even though I'm sure workloads at this time are insane, there is still some  critical tweaking to be done for pvp.

That being said:

Quote

So I'm suggesting the retirement of some old classes, just abandon them. BUT let the players know you're doing it!

No. 

People bought expansions for access to those classes. They should all be pvp viable. 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
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@OP

 

The mistake in your logic is to assume that all core classes have 1 build with 1 weapon.

 

We haven't gone from 8 ->27, it's more like we've gone from 32 -> 54. Sure, it's an increase, but it's not as significant an increase as you're making out.

 

The difference in knowledge I need to fight a core d/p thief vs fighting a core s/d thief vs fighting a core p/d thief is just as great as the difference in knowledge I need to fight a rifle deadeye.

 

Going from core to HoT did not double the number of build combinations someone might have to consider. It only increased it by maybe 10%.

 

Look at utilities. In core, each class has a choice of 20 utilities to pick from. With HoT, that went up to 24. Yes, an increase, but only an increase of 20%, not 100%.

 

Look at weapons. In Core, guardian has a choice of 9 weapons. With HoT, that went up to 10. An increase of 11%, not 100%.

 

When EoD arrives, yes, the game will be more complex than it was on release. But not 300% more complex.

Edited by Ragnar.4257
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7 hours ago, Svarty.8019 said:

HISTORY

Layers of Complexity. Each expansion brings another layer of complexity in the guise of specialisations.

 

When the game was new, there were but eight classes.

Guardian,, WarriorEngineer, Ranger, ThiefElementalist, MesmerNecromancer

Players didn't understand anything at first, but as time went on, they L'd2P.

In PvP, in particular, players began to master one or two classes, eventually learning how to beat the others - they had to play ALL the classes to learn their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Heart of Thorns added a layer of complexity. Novelty was poured upon the players like confetti - a wonderful bonanza! Or was it?

The same PvP players had to now learn another ten classes (hello Revenant) in order to master their game-mode:

Dragon Hunter, Berserker, Scrapper, Druid, Tempest, Chronomancer and Reaper.

Path of Fire ... you know where this is going now. Another nine classes...

and now End of Dragons.

A new player comes to the competitive modes in Guild Wars 2 with THIRTY-SIX classes to learn in order to have a chance. I think that's too many.

 

Is it any wonder PvP is in a state at the moment? The Skills and Balance developers are spread thinly enough as it is, and now they're having to constantly work on that many classes.

 

So I'm suggesting the retirement of some old classes, just abandon them. BUT let the players know you're doing it!

absolutely not i run a core condi ranger and love it. and i am sure others love their soulbeast or druid i would not ask any of them to give up something they injoy playing just to make things easier for you

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This issue is not that there are too many classes but that there are too many random instant AOE red circles and effects that a new player has no way to possibly know what they do or to expect them or not. When a new player sees an ability like Warriors Arcing Slice, or Rangers Maul, it is intuitive what is happening and gives them a chance to react.

 

Another issue that makes the game needlessly complex and impenetrable for a new player is condition damage. There needs to be some discernable difference between the burning applied by a power guard and the burning applied by a condi guard. You get lots of the same conditions slapped on you, and sometimes it does nothing and othertimes you are dead in seconds.

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The more complex that classes get, the less beginner-friendly the game mode gets. I've been playing for years and I don't even understand most classes' capabilities because I don't want to play them all to learn how they work.

If you look at the most popular online PvP games, they are all dead simple. Most of them boil down to "point your gun at the enemy and pull the trigger" and then maybe give you a single ability on top of that to spice up the game. Overwatch has millions of players and every single one of its characters is dead simple to play: you can learn everything that a character does and how it interacts with every other class in a few hours of play time. Other popular games like Counter Strike are even more simple: just point your gun and shoot.

Can you imagine how exciting GW2 PvP would be if it had millions of monthly players? The matchmaking would also be fixed because a higher population would allow everyone to be matched with someone closer in skill to themselves.

Simple, fun PvP modes attract masses of beginners. Extraordinarily complex PvP games, like GW2 currently has, are always unpopular. Just look at how dead Ranked PvP is right now. GW2 has hundreds of thousands of monthly players but only maybe 1% of those play Ranked PvP regularly.

We know that online PvP is a popular game mode, because so many other games succeed at it. So if GW2's PvP mode is failing (which it certainly is), then it must be because the game mode is not fun enough to attract new players. Complexity is not fun. (And btw, the massive amount of stun locks in GW2 PvP is also not fun.)

By the way, if anyone wants proof that simplicity attracts new players, just look at the most popular class for noobs: the Necro. Why is it so popular with beginners? Not because it is the very best class, but because it is the easiest class to play and still be viable.

Edited by Silverpoopoo.1476
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