Revitalizing Warrior 3: Re-working DEFENSE

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Defense is a trait line that has so much promise yet so consistently underperforms.  This is especially frustrating because a more functional Defense line would dramatically improve the viability of numerous Core, Berserker, and Spellbreaker builds.  The positive flip-side of this is that the entire Warrior profession could be elevated by thoughtful reworks of Defense; as such, I hope this will be a priority for ANet as they work toward EoD’s release ( @Josh Davis.7865, @Cal Cohen.2358, @Cal Cohen.3527--please consider!).  I offer some suggestions and rationale for possible reworks below.

 

I think the Minor Traits (Thick Skin, Adrenal Healing, and Hardened Armor) are in a pretty good place and I would leave them as is.

 

Shield Master:  Great trait overall but Might duration should be increased to 5s (or at least 3s). 

 

This allows for a great dynamic of “the hunted becoming the hunter,” that is, blocking your opponents’ attacks in order to return a savage retaliatory strike.  I really think 5s duration is appropriate here; recall that shield stance blocks for 3s; if the Might lasts for 3s or less, Might generated on the front end of Shield Stance will have expired by the time the stance ends and will no longer be available for the counterattack.

 

Dogged March: Keep 33% passive reduction in duration of movement-impairing conditions.  Grant Resistance instead of Regeneration—4s Resistance with 12s CD. 

 

This is more in keeping with the spirit of the trait (pushing through impaired movement) and offers synergy with the passive effect: since movement-impairing conditions have 33% reduced duration, they are more likely to have expired by the time the Resistance runs out.  Having a source of resistance would also help combat the pervasive blind spam which is an Achilles’ heel for warriors.

 

Cull the Weak:  Apply Weakness (5s) on critical hit (15s CD).  Damage increased by 7% to weakened foes.

 

The current Cull the Weak is a good idea but poor implementation.  Warrior currently has very little access to Weakness and so gains very little in damage increase.  Also, inflicting weakness when the target is <50% health is often not the ideal timing for weakness application.  You usually gain more by applying weakness early in the fight to limit the effectiveness of your opponent’s best skills when he still has them off cooldown.  Changing the Cull the Weak to apply weakness on crit will allow you to apply weakness earlier in the encounter and more consistently throughout. 

 

Defy Pain:  Gain +180 toughness.  Gain 5s each of Protection and Resolution when your health drops below 50% (45s CD). 

 

No more damage immunity or stun break, but now a powerful passive effect with an emergency damage mitigation effect.  Still counter-playable because the boons can be ripped or corrupted and damage is not completely negated.

 

Armored Attack:  Gain Resolution (5s) when critically striking a foe (15s CD).  Damage increased by 7% when you have Resolution.

 

The current Armored Attack sucks, frankly, and is only worth taking because the current Defy Pain is nerfed out of existence and no one uses Maces.  This rework is true to the spirit of the trait: “Armored” because it generates Resolution (which synergizes with Hardened Armor to grant 10% damage reduction), and “Attack” because it offers a damage increase.  Between the Resolution generated by this node and that generated by Hardened armor (5s every 15s), a warrior could see up to 67% resolution up-time, resulting in substantial damage reduction and damage increase.

 

Mace Mastery:  Depends on whether or not Mace gets re-worked.  See the post on Mace re-work ideas for some suggestions.

 

Last Stand:  Grants Vigor (5s) on dodge roll.  Stances gain reduced recharge (20%) and grant resistance (3s).

 

I know there are lots of opinions on this one, many involving granting protection and/or resolution.  I think this is problematic for several reasons.  1.) Protection and/or resolution on stance use would indirectly nerf Defiant stance (since you reduce your incoming damage and therefore healing).  2.)  We would already have significant access to resolution (which grants 10% damage reduction via Hardened Armor) already; having yet more damage reduction boons will just make us the next Prot Holo—a toxic build that was (rightfully) nerfed recently.  3.)  Sustain trait lines of other classes (see Wilderness Survival in Ranger, for example) offer a variety of effects rather than numerous applications of the same effect. 

 

For all these reasons, I suggest that Last Stand provide a means of granting Vigor instead of directly protective boons.  Dodging is some of the best defense anyway, and having more access to dodges would diversify our defensive repertoire beyond relying on boons or Endure Pain. 

 

Additionally, changing the Increased Stance Duration to Reduced Recharge is a big buff to stances.  And providing another source of Resistance allows Stance skills to have extra utility in some of Warrior’s more challenging encounters (e.g., thieves’ blind spam, ranger immob spam, Necro chill, etc.).

 

Cleansing Ire: Gain adrenaline when struck and cleanse 1 condition for each bar of adrenaline spent.

 

Landing with our telegraphed bursts is much easier said than done; this greatly reduces the value of the current Cleansing Ire.  Allowing bursts to cleanse regardless of whether they hit or not would greatly improve the utility of this trait and would lessen our dependence on Shake It Off, thus fostering greater build diversity. 

 

Rousing Resilience:  Pretty good trait; I’d leave it as it is.

 

As always, thanks for your thoughtful commentary!  Looking forward to the discussion.

Edited September 7, 2021 by CalmTheStorm.2364

[Grand Marshal.4098]

I did a big defense rework in the omnibus and a couple of replies later we decided on some good traits and I can see good traits here too. What I will take from my idea and add here is to change the hardened armor minor to proc on the existence of conditions and blocking instead of getting crit striked. 

 

That is, because we no longer have rental there. We have a condi mitigation Boon. A condi build may have extremely low precision to properly crit you while in combat. To top it off, although it is rare to see warriors with no blocks, it does happen. Therefore having resolution apply on 2 conditions on yourself as well would be ideal. If 3 variables for the boon to apply are too much, change the crit to having 2 conditions on you. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I did a big defense rework in the omnibus and a couple of replies later we decided on some good traits and I can see good traits here too. What I will take from my idea and add here is to change the hardened armor minor to proc on the existence of conditions and blocking instead of getting crit striked. 

 

That is, because we no longer have rental there. We have a condi mitigation Boon. A condi build may have extremely low precision to properly crit you while in combat. To top it off, although it is rare to see warriors with no blocks, it does happen. Therefore having resolution apply on 2 conditions on yourself as well would be ideal. If 3 variables for the boon to apply are too much, change the crit to having 2 conditions on you. 

Make it a single condition.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Make it a single condition.

Shrug it off does it so let's go 

 

Edit: cough tactics changes btw needed cough cough

Edited September 7, 2021 by Grand Marshal.4098

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

@Grand Marshal.4098 @Lan Deathrider.5910  I agree, those are good changes to Hardened Armor.  I'm on board.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Shrug it off does it so let's go 

 

Edit: cough tactics changes btw needed cough cough

Tactics isn't too bad off. Its just that they janked the rework of it on release with the 15s CD on Marching Orders and tied new traits to it. The 10s CD was a step in the right direction, but MO needs no CD and the traits need their own CDs.

[Infusion.7149]

What is the context for these changes? Decent players run mace in PVE on power builds unless there is no CC required and players run mace in PVP if they need CC and block sometimes (not often) without running shield. Mace has weakness application on autoattack. Therefore Cull the Weak isn't as bad as you make it out to be especially if there are other weakness sources such as power weavers. In competitive modes it essentially is weakness spam because it is 5s duration with 5s ICD. I'm almost certain if spellbreaker were nerfed and dagger was no longer attractive in PVP people would run maces ; warriors don't have many core defensive options other than mace and shield (warhorn applies barrier it doesn't block) since most people consider offhand sword to be terrible (especially in melee) despite the cooldowns being lower than offhand shield.
 

The Defy Pain change is also suspect, since a passive unconditional toughness increase of 180 is massive. Instead I would have it give additional damage reduction to protection, resolution, and Endure Pain or Dolyak Signet. This definitely needs a rework since it is a 300s trait in competitive and nobody really runs Defense in PVE.
i.e.1. resolution now reduces condition damage taken by 50% instead of 33%. Gain adrenaline while burning , bleeding, poisoned, or tormented. This would make it a counter to condi spam along with dogged march. There's passive resolution in the defense line from Hardened Armor, this would capitalize on it while not introducing more passives.
2. Endure Pain now reduces incoming condition damage taken by 50% , which is less passive and makes endure pain more useful
3. Dolyak Signet now reduces incoming condition damage taken by 10-15%.

Armored Attack is not necessarily bad , at worst it is a ~100 power bonus. It became worse when warriors lost the passive toughness from the defense traitline. You get additional usefulness out of it when you run fighter rune or trooper/soldier's rune ; in PVP if running destroyer's amulet.

Last Stand granting vigor on dodge roll is pure power-creep. I would probably just leave it as is and focus on remaking the passive 300s cooldown.

I agree on Cleansing Ire change though and the Dogged March change would help a bit with being soft-CCed.

Also having hardened armor trigger off incoming conditions would be far more useful against something like a Trailblazer or Carrion build.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Thanks for the feedback!

 

21 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

What is the context for these changes? Decent players run mace in PVE on power builds unless there is no CC required and players run mace in PVP if they need CC and block sometimes (not often) without running shield. Mace has weakness application on autoattack. Therefore Cull the Weak isn't as bad as you make it out to be especially if there are other weakness sources such as power weavers. In competitive modes it essentially is weakness spam because it is 5s duration with 5s ICD. I'm almost certain if spellbreaker were nerfed and dagger was no longer attractive in PVP people would run maces ; warriors don't have many core defensive options other than mace and shield (warhorn applies barrier it doesn't block) since most people consider offhand sword to be terrible (especially in melee) despite the cooldowns being lower than offhand shield.

I don't play PvE much anymore, but I don't think I've ever seen a warrior using Mace in that context...maybe for a very CC-intensive boss or something, and even that hardly ever since you can just use EMP 2.0.  

 

I can't speak for WvW, but I have over 1300 matches in PvP under my belt, and I can recall a spellbreaker or core warrior running mace only twice (they stand out when you see them because it is so rare).  You'll see some Condi berserker builds trying it (tho those are rare too).  The reason?  MH Mace (outside of Skull Grinder) has almost no DPS.  You're stuck with a ridiculously slow AA chain.  But that's getting off topic; you can check out the 2nd post in this series for discussion about Mace and how it could be improved.

 

Re: Cull the Weak--I'm not aware of anyone who uses it competitively, and it certainly isn't meta in any event.  Outside of Mace's 3rd AA hit (and the target would have to be stunned a long time for you to have a prayer of getting through the whole chain), you've got Hammer's Fierce Blow and "Fear Me!" for sources of weakness.  Mace, Hammer, and "Fear Me!" are 3 things that almost never see competitive action, and thus are not reliable applicators of weakness.  Moreover, Cull the Weak itself only applies weakness to targets <50% health, which, as described in the OP, is suboptimal.  You're definitely not spamming weakness with this trait as it currently is, and you wouldn't be with the proposed revision either.

 

30 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The Defy Pain change is also suspect, since a passive unconditional toughness increase of 180 is massive. Instead I would have it give additional damage reduction to protection, resolution, and Endure Pain or Dolyak Signet. This definitely needs a rework since it is a 300s trait in competitive and nobody really runs Defense in PVE.
i.e.1. resolution now reduces condition damage taken by 50% instead of 33%. Gain adrenaline while burning , bleeding, poisoned, or tormented. This would make it a counter to condi spam along with dogged march. There's passive resolution in the defense line from Hardened Armor, this would capitalize on it while not introducing more passives.
2. Endure Pain now reduces incoming condition damage taken by 50% , which is less passive and makes endure pain more useful
3. Dolyak Signet now reduces incoming condition damage taken by 10-15%.

 

The amount of toughness granted is certainly negotiable.  Many traits that give bonus stats give them in increments of +120 but have conditions that increase the bonus to +240--consider Forceful Greatsword or Axe Mastery.  Thus, I don't think +180 to be "out of bounds" by any means.  It is the amount of toughness granted by Dolyak signet and works out to ~7% damage reduction compared to Warrior's base heavy armor.

 

I think if you start modifying Resolution to further reduce condition damage up to 50% or so and start reworking other skills to have condition damage reduction, you're a.) asking a single trait to do a great many things, and b.) starting to get into Prot Holo territory where you're so buffed that barely anything can hurt you.  Prot Holo was rightfully nerfed for this, and any changes to Defense needs to not duplicate the same mistake.

 

 

38 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Armored Attack is not necessarily bad , at worst it is a ~100 power bonus. It became worse when warriors lost the passive toughness from the defense traitline. You get additional usefulness out of it when you run fighter rune or trooper/soldier's rune ; in PVP if running destroyer's amulet.

Armored Attack is indeed bad, especially compared to more high-functioning traits like Forceful Greatsword (Armored Attack and FG are in the same level of their respective trait lines, as well).  +100 power is pathetic.  FG grants at least +120 AND the ability to generate might.  And yes, the power bonus from armored attack scales ever so slightly with toughness, but never enough to really compensate for the loss of power from taking toughness-based gear in the first place.  For example, if I run Berserker's amulet in PvP, I get 1200 base power and +100 power from Armored Attack = 1300 power.  If I run Demolisher's amulet, I get 1000 base power and +150 power from Armored Attack =1150 power.  

 

On the other hand, the proposed changes for Armored Attack allow it to double as both a defensive AND an offensive trait.  This is more dynamic and nuanced and would provide better all around value for the build.

 

54 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Last Stand granting vigor on dodge roll is pure power-creep. I would probably just leave it as is and focus on remaking the passive 300s cooldown.
 

Ranger's Wilderness survival has minor traits that provide passive +25% endurance regen and 2s protection on dodge roll.  This isn't power-creep; it's keeping up with the Jones'.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

What is the context for these changes? Decent players run mace in PVE on power builds unless there is no CC required and players run mace in PVP if they need CC and block sometimes (not often) without running shield. Mace has weakness application on autoattack. Therefore Cull the Weak isn't as bad as you make it out to be especially if there are other weakness sources such as power weavers. In competitive modes it essentially is weakness spam because it is 5s duration with 5s ICD. I'm almost certain if spellbreaker were nerfed and dagger was no longer attractive in PVP people would run maces ; warriors don't have many core defensive options other than mace and shield (warhorn applies barrier it doesn't block) since most people consider offhand sword to be terrible (especially in melee) despite the cooldowns being lower than offhand shield.
 

The Defy Pain change is also suspect, since a passive unconditional toughness increase of 180 is massive. Instead I would have it give additional damage reduction to protection, resolution, and Endure Pain or Dolyak Signet. This definitely needs a rework since it is a 300s trait in competitive and nobody really runs Defense in PVE.
i.e.1. resolution now reduces condition damage taken by 50% instead of 33%. Gain adrenaline while burning , bleeding, poisoned, or tormented. This would make it a counter to condi spam along with dogged march. There's passive resolution in the defense line from Hardened Armor, this would capitalize on it while not introducing more passives.
2. Endure Pain now reduces incoming condition damage taken by 50% , which is less passive and makes endure pain more useful
3. Dolyak Signet now reduces incoming condition damage taken by 10-15%.

Armored Attack is not necessarily bad , at worst it is a ~100 power bonus. It became worse when warriors lost the passive toughness from the defense traitline. You get additional usefulness out of it when you run fighter rune or trooper/soldier's rune ; in PVP if running destroyer's amulet.

Last Stand granting vigor on dodge roll is pure power-creep. I would probably just leave it as is and focus on remaking the passive 300s cooldown.

I agree on Cleansing Ire change though and the Dogged March change would help a bit with being soft-CCed.

Also having hardened armor trigger off incoming conditions would be far more useful against something like a Trailblazer or Carrion build.

you do realize that there are classes that get vigor on dodge right? As minors even.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[Vancho.8750]

Putting Cleansing Ire or Rousing Resilience on separate columns (mid row is total garbage atm wink, wink) would make the traitline good enough since people would be able to have both and I don't give a kitten if anyone thinks this will be too OP since the whole traitline is too disjointed right now with almost no traits working together. Also moving the adrenaline on getting hit from cleansing ire to thick skin would give some needed leaway in the adrenalin generation department and you end up with minor traits that have synergy with each other, you get hit you get adrenalin you use burst you get adrenal health simple and effective. 
Also the suggestion of @Lan Deathrider.5910 that burst traits should proc on adrenalin bar used instead of burst hitting would go a long way.

Some more access to resolution and resistance would be also welcomed cause warrior didn't get kitten after the Resistance rework and got shanked with 50% nerf for no reason there with no intent on fixing it. 

[anbujackson.9564]

Good ideas but honestly it still lacks any sort of value for condi builds like tactics does. I dont want to be forced on power in every scenario. Check death magic on necro aka their own selfish defense. It has literally everything with no high ICD.

 

Condi is already restricted hard in its choices. Arms has 3 traits (1 in each line), 4 if you need vulnerability (almost always except in raids because the damage increases is too good), discipline has 3, 4 if you dont run banners in non raids for condi removal. 

 

To sum it up: Some benefit for condi is lacking while still being less powerful than other defensice traitlines from other classes (which is a good thing, balance and all). I also miss a source for regen btw.

[Infusion.7149]

41 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Thanks for the feedback!

 

I don't play PvE much anymore, but I don't think I've ever seen a warrior using Mace in that context...maybe for a very CC-intensive boss or something, and even that hardly ever since you can just use EMP 2.0.  

 

I can't speak for WvW, but I have over 1300 matches in PvP under my belt, and I can recall a spellbreaker or core warrior running mace only twice (they stand out when you see them because it is so rare).  You'll see some Condi berserker builds trying it (tho those are rare too).  The reason?  MH Mace (outside of Skull Grinder) has almost no DPS.  You're stuck with a ridiculously slow AA chain.  But that's getting off topic; you can check out the 2nd post in this series for discussion about Mace and how it could be improved.

 

Re: Cull the Weak--I'm not aware of anyone who uses it competitively, and it certainly isn't meta in any event.  Outside of Mace's 3rd AA hit (and the target would have to be stunned a long time for you to have a prayer of getting through the whole chain), you've got Hammer's Fierce Blow and "Fear Me!" for sources of weakness.  Mace, Hammer, and "Fear Me!" are 3 things that almost never see competitive action, and thus are not reliable applicators of weakness.  Moreover, Cull the Weak itself only applies weakness to targets <50% health, which, as described in the OP, is suboptimal.  You're definitely not spamming weakness with this trait as it currently is, and you wouldn't be with the proposed revision either.

 

 

The amount of toughness granted is certainly negotiable.  Many traits that give bonus stats give them in increments of +120 but have conditions that increase the bonus to +240--consider Forceful Greatsword or Axe Mastery.  Thus, I don't think +180 to be "out of bounds" by any means.  It is the amount of toughness granted by Dolyak signet and works out to ~7% damage reduction compared to Warrior's base heavy armor.

 

I think if you start modifying Resolution to further reduce condition damage up to 50% or so and start reworking other skills to have condition damage reduction, you're a.) asking a single trait to do a great many things, and b.) starting to get into Prot Holo territory where you're so buffed that barely anything can hurt you.  Prot Holo was rightfully nerfed for this, and any changes to Defense needs to not duplicate the same mistake.

 

 

Armored Attack is indeed bad, especially compared to more high-functioning traits like Forceful Greatsword (Armored Attack and FG are in the same level of their respective trait lines, as well).  +100 power is pathetic.  FG grants at least +120 AND the ability to generate might.  And yes, the power bonus from armored attack scales ever so slightly with toughness, but never enough to really compensate for the loss of power from taking toughness-based gear in the first place.  For example, if I run Berserker's amulet in PvP, I get 1200 base power and +100 power from Armored Attack = 1300 power.  If I run Demolisher's amulet, I get 1000 base power and +150 power from Armored Attack =1150 power.  

 

On the other hand, the proposed changes for Armored Attack allow it to double as both a defensive AND an offensive trait.  This is more dynamic and nuanced and would provide better all around value for the build.

 

Ranger's Wilderness survival has minor traits that provide passive +25% endurance regen and 2s protection on dodge roll.  This isn't power-creep; it's keeping up with the Jones'.

If you're just basing it all off PVP then just label it as such. I would tell you the same if someone was trying to buff guardian mace because it's not meta in PVE (although it is heavily used in competitive and has been meta for ages in WVW).

Mace is meta in PVE , you can spend 2 minutes on any PVE site whether discretize, snowcrows, luckynoobs, hardstuck, metabattle , etc. There's many things that are strong in PVE that aren't in competitive due to the Feb 2020 split.

That doesn't change the fact that it is the only defensive mainhand weapon. There is little reason to run it on spellbreaker when spellbreakers have dagger mainhand and full counter. The mace AA chain is 2.9s long with no quickness or modifiers (Berserk mode, dual wielding, etc.). Axe is 3.6s for the whole chain and greatsword is 2.4s so the issue there is the damage coefficients if you feel it does "no damage". Consider that damage with CC was taken away in Feb 2020 patch and both the burst and mace 3 (pommel bash) are hard CC.

There's a stark difference to prot holo which has more chase potential , removal of soft CC on holo leap, condi to boon conversion (i.e. vuln to prot), and ability to disengage easier with elixirs. When I listed 1 to 3 for Defy Pain , I meant something akin to one of those and not all three at the same time in case it isn't obvious.

The reason I am against a damage bonus on Armored Attack is there have been too many damage modifiers slapped everywhere. This is by no means a PVE traitline so I don't see the point in giving it a damage bonus. If you choose a defensive traitline named defense, it should give you survivability not damage. Forceful Greatsword giving 240 power is unique to Strength traitline while greatsword is equipped, but let's not pretend it is easy to get all hits of Hundred Blades in. Also, Axe Mastery is a ferocity bonus not a power bonus ; running double axes in competitive is only possible if you have supports and a gap closer/defensive weapon as a swap. I am saying +100 power is in line with something like Empower Allies in Tactics.

 

You can't compare to rangers because rangers don't have that level of survivability as baseline: warriors really should be able to facetank some damage like reapers do if they run defense whereas vigor is for dodging. That's why a stronger boosted resolution would be better overall than more vigor , similar to how engineers and tempests gain 40% protection when traited rather than 33%. Whether you choose Strength, Discipline, or Tactics all have defensive options whether it is MMR , Mending Might  + Soldier's Comfort + Vigorous Shouts, Brawler's Recovery, etc. Boonbeast used to be a bit stronger particularly in PVP but after merged bonuses were reduced and the single pet changes that isn't 100% true anymore.
 

Just curious do you play other classes? I noticed a lot of people posting in the forums only play one or two classes and that's part of the reason why people propose things I disagree with purely based on playing on 9 classes to avoid bias.

----

Two of the three classes cannot facetank damage :

• Revenants with Retribution traitline , you'll note power herald doesn't run this only tanky renegade with shortbow (obviously more useful when 33% crit chance is lost if not at full endurance)
• Thieves with the acro traitline which was 100% gutted in WVW/PVP so nobody uses it
• Rangers with skirmishing traited , which is usually seen on decap druid and not on core valk

21 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

you do realize that there are classes that get vigor on dodge right? As minors even.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you're just basing it all off PVP then just label it as such. I would tell you the same if someone was trying to buff guardian mace because it's not meta in PVE (although it is heavily used in competitive and has been meta for ages in WVW).

Mace is meta in PVE , you can spend 2 minutes on any PVE site whether discretize, snowcrows, luckynoobs, hardstuck, metabattle , etc. There's many things that are strong in PVE that aren't in competitive due to the Feb 2020 split.

That doesn't change the fact that it is the only defensive mainhand weapon. There is little reason to run it on spellbreaker when spellbreakers have dagger mainhand and full counter. The mace AA chain is 2.9s long with no quickness or modifiers (Berserk mode, dual wielding, etc.). Axe is 3.6s for the whole chain and greatsword is 2.4s so the issue there is the damage coefficients if you feel it does "no damage". Consider that damage with CC was taken away in Feb 2020 patch and both the burst and mace 3 (pommel bash) are hard CC.

There's a stark difference to prot holo which has more chase potential , removal of soft CC on holo leap, condi to boon conversion (i.e. vuln to prot), and ability to disengage easier with elixirs. When I listed 1 to 3 for Defy Pain , I meant something akin to one of those and not all three at the same time in case it isn't obvious.

The reason I am against a damage bonus on Armored Attack is there have been too many damage modifiers slapped everywhere. This is by no means a PVE traitline so I don't see the point in giving it a damage bonus. If you choose a defensive traitline named defense, it should give you survivability not damage. Forceful Greatsword giving 240 power is unique to Strength traitline while greatsword is equipped, but let's not pretend it is easy to get all hits of Hundred Blades in. Also, Axe Mastery is a ferocity bonus not a power bonus , running double axes in competitive is only possible if you have supports and a gap closer/defensive weapon as a swap. I am saying +100 power is in line with something like Empower Allies in Tactics.

 

You can't compare to rangers because rangers don't have that level of survivability as baseline: warriors really should be able to facetank some damage like reapers do if they run defense whereas vigor is for dodging. That's why a stronger boosted resolution would be better overall than more vigor , similar to how engineers and tempests gain 40% protection when traited rather than 33%. Whether you choose Strength, Discipline, or Tactics all have defensive options whether it is MMR , Mending Might  + Soldier's Comfort + Vigorous Shouts, Brawler's Recovery, etc. Boonbeast used to be a bit stronger particularly in PVP but after merged bonuses were reduced and the single pet changes that isn't 100% true anymore.
 

Just curious do you play other classes? I noticed a lot of people posting in the forums only play one or two classes and that's part of the reason why people propose things I disagree with purely based on playing on 9 classes to avoid bias.

----

Two of the three classes cannot facetank damage :

• Revenants with Retribution traitline , you'll note power herald doesn't run this only tanky renegade with shortbow (obviously more useful when 33% crit chance is lost if not at full endurance)
• Thieves with the acro traitline which was 100% gutted in WVW/PVP so nobody uses it
• Rangers with skirmishing traited , which is usually seen on decap druid and not on core valk

Rangers in WvW can face tank plenty.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

57 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Good ideas but honestly it still lacks any sort of value for condi builds like tactics does. I dont want to be forced on power in every scenario. Check death magic on necro aka their own selfish defense. It has literally everything with no high ICD.

 

Condi is already restricted hard in its choices. Arms has 3 traits (1 in each line), 4 if you need vulnerability (almost always except in raids because the damage increases is too good), discipline has 3, 4 if you dont run banners in non raids for condi removal. 

 

To sum it up: Some benefit for condi is lacking while still being less powerful than other defensice traitlines from other classes (which is a good thing, balance and all). I also miss a source for regen btw.

Good point about the condi...I hadn't really thought of that. Although, to be honest, unless we get some serious reworks for sword and mace like those suggested in the earlier posts in this series, I doubt it would matter much. The biggest obstacle to versions of condi warrior is our lack of good condi weapons.

 

All the same, if you've got suggestions for incorporating condi buffs into Defense, I'm all ears!

 

P.S. I guess Cull the Weak is kinda condi since it applies weakness, but I'm guessing you had something more like Body Blow in mind?

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[oscuro.9720]

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you're just basing it all off PVP then just label it as such. I would tell you the same if someone was trying to buff guardian mace because it's not meta in PVE (although it is heavily used in competitive and has been meta for ages in WVW).

Mace is meta in PVE , you can spend 2 minutes on any PVE site whether discretize, snowcrows, luckynoobs, hardstuck, metabattle , etc. There's many things that are strong in PVE that aren't in competitive due to the Feb 2020 split.

That doesn't change the fact that it is the only defensive mainhand weapon. There is little reason to run it on spellbreaker when spellbreakers have dagger mainhand and full counter. The mace AA chain is 2.9s long with no quickness or modifiers (Berserk mode, dual wielding, etc.). Axe is 3.6s for the whole chain and greatsword is 2.4s so the issue there is the damage coefficients if you feel it does "no damage". Consider that damage with CC was taken away in Feb 2020 patch and both the burst and mace 3 (pommel bash) are hard CC.

There's a stark difference to prot holo which has more chase potential , removal of soft CC on holo leap, condi to boon conversion (i.e. vuln to prot), and ability to disengage easier with elixirs. When I listed 1 to 3 for Defy Pain , I meant something akin to one of those and not all three at the same time in case it isn't obvious.

The reason I am against a damage bonus on Armored Attack is there have been too many damage modifiers slapped everywhere. This is by no means a PVE traitline so I don't see the point in giving it a damage bonus. If you choose a defensive traitline named defense, it should give you survivability not damage. Forceful Greatsword giving 240 power is unique to Strength traitline while greatsword is equipped, but let's not pretend it is easy to get all hits of Hundred Blades in. Also, Axe Mastery is a ferocity bonus not a power bonus ; running double axes in competitive is only possible if you have supports and a gap closer/defensive weapon as a swap. I am saying +100 power is in line with something like Empower Allies in Tactics.

 

You can't compare to rangers because rangers don't have that level of survivability as baseline: warriors really should be able to facetank some damage like reapers do if they run defense whereas vigor is for dodging. That's why a stronger boosted resolution would be better overall than more vigor , similar to how engineers and tempests gain 40% protection when traited rather than 33%. Whether you choose Strength, Discipline, or Tactics all have defensive options whether it is MMR , Mending Might  + Soldier's Comfort + Vigorous Shouts, Brawler's Recovery, etc. Boonbeast used to be a bit stronger particularly in PVP but after merged bonuses were reduced and the single pet changes that isn't 100% true anymore.

I agree with most of your points. Armored attack shouldn’t have a damage mod, as I am of the same opinion as you that the Defense line should let a warrior be able to eat a decent bit of damage. The problem is that warrior does not eat damage well in competitive modes (since you said specify, basically everything I’m going to reference is in competitive modes). 
 

However, Armored Attack does need a change. A few ideas off the top of my head are;

 

Change the gained power to ferocity. This isn’t a satisfactory change imo. The turn toughness onto another stat is lackluster and doesn’t provide a level of defensive ability imo. 

Rework the trait in some way. A few options I can think of, and these are just off the top of my head, so they are going to be flawed, are; gain resolution when critically struck (something like 3s on a 15s icd), gain barrier when striking a foe with a burst skill (fairly strong, but certainly fits the theme of gaining defense y attacking) or some other rework. 
 

I really think the Defense line should give warrior more consistent access to barrier. I honestly don’t know if Armored Attack is the place to put it, or if Defy Pain/Last Stand, which are effectively disabled in competitive modes currently, are a better place for that. 

 

The idea of a boosted Resolution is cool, but we technically have that. Hardened Armor gives a 10% reduction to incoming damage when you have resolution. While it doesn’t buff resolution under its intended effect, it is certainly an impactful trait, if not for our relatively low amount of access to resolution from the defense line. Also I’m not sure a buffed version of Resolution is really necessary for warrior. Warrior has consistent clear and a high health pool. Conditions usually aren’t the biggest problem imo (again, in competitive modes), so an additional 7% reduction of incoming condi damage would be lackluster imo. That’s just my opinion though, I’m by no means correct 🙂 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Here are some more thoughts. I'm not going to talk about any specific traits though, just what in my mind Defense needs as our selfish sustain tree.

 

1) It needs protection. Even just ONE source.  5s on a 15s CD.  It'll be plenty.

2) It needs super protection, 40% damage reduction.

3) It needs one more source of Resolution, again 5s on a 15s CD would be enough.

4) It needs a source of Resistance that we can control.

 

To tie all this to traits...

Dogged March could certainly get Resistance instead of Regen. 4s duration on a 10s CD would be fine.

Defy Pain could certainly be reworked to be to gain 5s of Protection and Resolution on a 15s CD with Protection boosted to 40%.

I'd tie Resistance onto Adrenal Health: Gain one stack of Adrenal Health and 1s of Resistance per bar of adrenaline used.

That last change would make it so that Defense would allow your bursts to ignore weakness, slow, blind, immobilize, etc.

If you are rocking a core warrior, with some of the adrenaline gaining traits, you could potentially perma upkeep resistance.

[anbujackson.9564]

12 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Good point about the condi...I hadn't really thought of that. Although, to be honest, unless we get some serious reworks for sword and mace like those suggested in the earlier posts in this series, I doubt it would matter much. The biggest obstacle to versions of condi warrior is our lack of good condi weapons.

 

All the same, if you've got suggestions for incorporating condi buffs into Defense, I'm all ears!

 

P.S. I guess Cull the Weak is kinda condi since it applies weakness, but I'm guessing you had something more like Body Blow in mind?

Cull the weak (leg specialist in tactics) increasing all damage, not just strike damage would be a good start. Maybe some application of a damage condition (bleed) when being hit by a critical attack on a minor trait 

 

You could also put a damage increase on your suggestion for armored attacks. On the other hand I would prefer vulnerability application instead of another flat damage increase. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by anbujackson.9564

[Dadnir.5038]

I'm not really thrilled by the idea of having the "defensive traitline" relying on "on crit procs". Be it cull the weak or armored attack, I think they need a bit more thought invest into them.

- Shield master: The might isn't there to increase the warrior damage but to take advantage of warrior's other trait. I don't think it's necessary to change it's duration.

- Dogged march: Nice change.

- Cull the weak: It's supposed to work with hammer and mace which give more than enough weakness output.

- Defy pain: You could reduce the ICD to 30s.

- Armored attack, I'd make it reduce incoming condition damage by 1% per might stack on you.

 

[Broxxgar.6801]

Once I thought that Cull of the Weak were really underperforming. But now I see it on the right spot, if it's not used on competitive mode I will just say  "don't know why". I'm more PvP than any other type. And seems to work well, on my teamfights and x1.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

A lot of comments here--thanks for the good discussion!  

 

Reading through everyone's thoughts, I had a few reflections:

1.) While much of the commentary centers on competitive play (which is, after all, where Defense sees the most use), the changes are meant to be helpful for all content, PvE included.

 

2.) Defense trait line, despite its name, is supposed to be a balanced trait line with both offensive and defensive offerings.  This is important because it allows degrees of flexibility in build-crafting.  You should be have a menu of traits with different effects that (in theory) can yield many viable builds.   You see this pattern in the "sustain" lines of other classes, as well: I consider Ranger's Wilderness Survival and Revenant's Retribution to be pretty well-thought-out trait lines that offer a  variety of powerful offensive and defensive  effects, despite being predominantly defensive in nature.   The ability to incorporate damage from an overall "Defensive" trait line is especially important if you hope the trait line to have any use in PvE where the emphasis on DPS is much greater.

 

Moreover, on a more practical note, the principle goal of this thread is to provide ideas for re-works to the Defense trait line that maybe, just maybe, will be taken up by ANet Devs.  With that in mind, I tried to imitate the balance between offensive and defensive traits that are evident in currently existing trait lines of other classes.

 

3.)  While I understand the concern about "too many damage modifiers," I think that fear is unfounded, at least in Warrior.  Warrior's damage is, at best, mediocre compared to other classes (tell me how many 400k+ damage PvP games you get on Warrior, for instance...I don't think I've had 1 in over 1300 matches, whereas my ranger buddies routinely break 400k and sometimes get near 600k).  It would be completely fine for Warrior to do more damage.  Moreover, consider the DPS buffs available to other classes in their trait lines, Ranger being a prime example of trait after trait stacking modifiers.  In this context, it would hardly be unfair for Warrior's offensive traits, regardless of what trait line they belong to, to be DPS modifiers as well.  Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the sentiment that "there are too many damage modifiers in the game"  but Warrior certainly isn't the culprit here, and denying Warrior access to another such modifier isn't fixing the problem.

 

4.)  Good traits are those that offer multiple and dynamic effects; good examples are Forceful Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Axe Mastery, etc (limiting my examples to Warriors only here).  In comparison, the existing versions of traits like Defy Pain and Armored Attack are suboptimal and should be expanded in their scope.

 

5.) Going back to the "menu" analogy, a good trait line offers both a variety of different effects while allowing for ways to synergize between at least a couple traits.  For instance, in Ranger's Wilderness Survival, they have a passive trait that improves endurance regen and another that grants protection on dodge roll.  More endurance = more dodges = more protection.  Good sh*t.  I've tried to duplicate this somewhat with our use of Resolution.  Hardened Armor makes Resolution "special" for us, so let's find ways to gain more access to it; the Armored Attack re-work was my attempt at a solution to that.

 

But we don't want to create something that is too dependent on one thing (e.g., perma-Resolution up-time).  Hence my suggestions for a passive toughness boost on Defy Pain and gaining vigor on dodge roll with Last Stand.

 

6.)  There is no "right" way to go about this, and you can't make everyone happy.  But I do hope this post outlines the framework of thinking I think we should be using  as we consider possible re-works to Defense or any other trait line.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

9 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Here are some more thoughts. I'm not going to talk about any specific traits though, just what in my mind Defense needs as our selfish sustain tree.

 

1) It needs protection. Even just ONE source.  5s on a 15s CD.  It'll be plenty.

2) It needs super protection, 40% damage reduction.

3) It needs one more source of Resolution, again 5s on a 15s CD would be enough.

4) It needs a source of Resistance that we can control.

 

To tie all this to traits...

Dogged March could certainly get Resistance instead of Regen. 4s duration on a 10s CD would be fine.

Defy Pain could certainly be reworked to be to gain 5s of Protection and Resolution on a 15s CD with Protection boosted to 40%.

I'd tie Resistance onto Adrenal Health: Gain one stack of Adrenal Health and 1s of Resistance per bar of adrenaline used.

That last change would make it so that Defense would allow your bursts to ignore weakness, slow, blind, immobilize, etc.

If you are rocking a core warrior, with some of the adrenaline gaining traits, you could potentially perma upkeep resistance.

Idea for Protection:  What if Shield Mastery granted protection instead of Might on block?  Consider this:

Shield Mastery:

Blocking reflects projectiles and grants protection (2s, only once per interval (1/2s))

Shield skills gain 20% reduced recharge

 

Since Protection stacks duration, throwing up your shield (or Riposte) could result in multiple procs during the duration of the block.  In the case of Shield Stance, a 3s block, you could have 6 x 0.5s intervals that could each grant a proc of protection, leading to 6 x 2s = 12s protection if people just blindly spam into your block.  And, since the protection is tied to blocking in general, this would offer some synergy with MH Mace and OH sword.

 

 

Also, I love, Love, LOVE the idea of gaining 1s Resistance on burst.  It might be overpowered, since blinding/evading/weakening Warrior's burst is one of the textbook ways of playing around them.  However, given our propensity to be kited and cheesed out of existence, I think it could be worth a try (it's not like you couldn't still beat a Warrior by conventional means like CC or just doing a bunch of damage to them or by blocking/evading the attack).

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Another way of working Resistance-on-burst into Defense would be to re-work it into Cleansing Ire.

 

Cleansing Ire:

Gain adrenaline when struck

Gain 1.5 s Resistance for each bar of adrenaline spent

 

You'd lose the condi cleanse but gain unblindable bursts...pretty fair trade if you ask me.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

16 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Another way of working Resistance-on-burst into Defense would be to re-work it into Cleansing Ire.

 

Cleansing Ire:

Gain adrenaline when struck

Gain 1.5 s Resistance for each bar of adrenaline spent

 

You'd lose the condi cleanse but gain unblindable bursts...pretty fair trade if you ask me.

No man, dont reduce our cleanses. Part that boon on Adrenal Health and give that protection baseline to the traitline.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

I mean, I want all the nice things, too...but I think we'd be way overpowered if we got all that.  Not that I'd mind...Warrior's been on the bottom long enough that we could use a turn atop the meta.  But in the interest of objective balance....