Revitalizing Warrior 3: Re-working DEFENSE

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

40 minutes ago, Acyk.9671 said:

I don't understand why you want to remove the might application when it's here to offer a synergy with mending might, PS, Pinnacle of Strength and MMR to either counter attack or sustain yourself.

Never said I *wanted* that. This whole thread is about exploring possibilities for ways that Defense could be improved.

 

Being able to generate potentially high protection up time would likely do more for sustain than the healing from MMR or mending might.

 

The might generation from shield mastery would much more compelling if it lasted 5s (which was my original suggestion in the OP) so that it could be used for offense as well as for procing MMR/MM.

[Smoosh.2718]

Im on the fence with shield master, I get that the might generated gives us HP, however its not even usable might in any circumstance. Either the might gets an extention in duration as stated up to 5s (punishment for attacking the shield) or turn each attack into protection stacking longer the more you are hit, 2-3s per hit.

Protection is one of the rarest boons for warrior and also the boon warrior needs to gain its true high defence rating to stay in the fight.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

9 minutes ago, Acyk.9671 said:

okok.

Would they go back on their design? traditionally war gets invulns instead of protection which falls into guard realm.

 

What if Defy Pain provided: "Gain 2sec of protection and 2 sec of resolution upon using your burst skill (F1)"

That's a really neat idea. Maybe put on a different skill (armored attack, maybe?) because I feel like "Defy Pain" should have an " oh crap I need emergency help" feel to it, but I think that's a really great mechanic and would fit well with Warrior overall. Nice work!

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

That's a really neat idea. Maybe put on a different skill (armored attack, maybe?) because I feel like "Defy Pain" should have an " oh crap I need emergency help" feel to it, but I think that's a really great mechanic and would fit well with Warrior overall. Nice work!

That would make more sense.

[TugboatSteve.3607]

When I think of Defense, I think a rework is needed, and I don't think rework in the sense of tweaking some details of the mechanics, or tweaking some numbers, I think much of the tree needs to be scrapped and redone with some focus on build diversity.

 

There is so little in Defense that can actually be described as Defense. There's so much that is outside of player control and automatically proccing conditional garbage, as well as perplexing traits like reducing 5% damage passively while above 75% health. Things like Rousing Resilience are not well designed traits even if they provide a situationally powerful benefit. It's a frustrating trait that requires you to build stunbreaks into your build and your rotation and hope to God someone stuns you and has a power build to boot, since the extra T does nothing against Condi (which you're sacrificing Cleansing Ire to get). Considering how prevalent condition builds are, I don't find this trait particularly appealing.

 

Maybe I'm dumb, but I don't really get most of the stuff in this tree, with the exception of Cleansing Ire, and that's only because of the rampant amount of condition spamming that I find intolerable without it. One application of weakness neuters my damage output unless I can remove it. One application of Cripple and I am locked down.

 

Apart from healing and condition cleansing, I'm not seeing anything explicitly "defensive" in the defense tree. 

 

Some things in the tree that are brainbending from a design standpoint to me. I just don't understand what the design logic was behind some of these.

 

Shield Master - 1 second of might on block

Wow. This would be meaningful if I took Strength. Not Defense. Nothing about this skill meaningfully changes the way shield is used. Shield is still used for 4 and 5, for set-ups for kills and for turtling on a single weapon set that is used for nothing else before swapping back to primary. Can this be redesigned into something that integrates the shield more meaningfully into the class? Why is shield only for a weapon offset that is for nothing more than pressing 4 and 5 and then switching back to the primary weapon set? There isn't even a meaningful way to build around the shield, a distinctive warrior tool. Instead, the shield is a utility kit for a greatsword. This button does nothing to change that.

 

The reflection of projectiles is also bizarre to me - this provides no defensive benefit and really fundamentally makes blocking more offensive. This is, however, the only meaningful component that encourages builds to maximize the benefit and changes somewhat how the ability can be used offensively, notably to reflect ranged projectiles that inflict stuns and knock backs that often take rangers and thieves by surprise.

 

Other than that, it is the same cookie cutter "reduce weapon specialty cooldown by 20%" seen in every other tree in the game. This might be intriguing if I didn't have two long cooldown abilities that once spent will force a weapon swap. I'm not going to take two weapon sets with shield just so I can shave off 5 seconds on my block cooldown. And I'm not going to change how I use shield with this ability. If I survive long enough to use block a second time even when traited, it's probably because I switched to a different weapon and used those tools to do so. With 5-10 second weapon swaps, this is how shield will continue to be used, in nearly every build. More frequent Shield bash setups and not much else.

 

It makes me sad when I compare the fluidity of Shield Slam on Protection Warrior in World of Warcraft and how it is weaved into the rotation and class identity and then compare this to the glorified utility kit that is shield on warrior in Guild Wars.

 

But I suppose that's fundamentally how shield is designed for warrior. Two utility buttons on an offset. I wonder if anyone gets value explicitly out of getting 4 seconds off on Shield Bash, but then I notice that most net builds omit Defense altogether despite almost exclusively using a shield offset, and having no defensive posture in their build  (e.g. typically power greatsword).

 

Armored Attack - 10% toughness converted to power.

Pretty useless in PvP on account of the limited selection of power+toughness amulets and again, provides no intrinsic Defense. Things like Dolyak Signet are not affected. Minimal scaling ratio means this is generally lost value unless I have the option of deliberately building high T, so it's more something that affects opportunity cost. In an ideal world this would be nice, ends up feeling bad due to excessive restriction on build options and ringfenced stat ratios. Conversely, powerful in PvE.

 

Defy Pain - 300 second CD stunbreak

procs on dropping below 50% health, not on stun. What

 

Last Stand - 300 second CD stunbreak with 1 extra second on stance abilities

Why would I ever take this over Cleansing Ire.

 

Cull the Weak

kicks in automatically at <50% target health and combines a nominal increase in damage with the weakness condition. Ironically synergizes poorly with the best weapon at weakness application, Mace, because it re-applies a condition you can already apply with auto-attack. Why would I be concerned about applying weakness when target is <50%, when I would be more concerned about locking down my target and applying pressure than mitigating their strike damage? Why does this need to be conditioned on <50% target health? Why does this need to alternate between oppressive and useless depending on my target's health percentage? Why would I take this trait? In what build would it be meaningful? Is the purpose of a defensive build to apply pressure on weak targets? Does anyone use this trait?

 

Would this not make more sense in the Strength tree and be more thematic besides?

 

I don't know, maybe I just don't get it. Defense just looks gross to me. I like the theme of a Protection Warrior from WoW, I am invited by the beautiful art of a warrior in full plate with a shield, then I read the skills and I feel like I am reading a mishmash of rejects from other trait lines instead of something that actually exhibits the flavor art and text in the details.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[TugboatSteve.3607]

On 9/7/2021 at 5:00 PM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I can't speak for WvW, but I have over 1300 matches in PvP under my belt, and I can recall a spellbreaker or core warrior running mace only twice (they stand out when you see them because it is so rare).  You'll see some Condi berserker builds trying it (tho those are rare too).  The reason?  MH Mace (outside of Skull Grinder) has almost no DPS.  You're stuck with a ridiculously slow AA chain.  But that's getting off topic; you can check out the 2nd post in this series for discussion about Mace and how it could be improved.

I've deliberately tried doing this to punish myself. Specifically MH mace.

 

I actually find the most noxious thing to be the lack of any kind of cripple or movement ability. It tethers you to walk speed. Unless you like chasing people and/or getting bogged down in AoE hell on a capture node. My favorite is watching Skull Crack hit air because someone moved out of melee range while I waddle around.

 

When I watch flavor warriors play in arena, they're typically spinning around with Greatswords because they have excellent movement and a good variety of utility. There is no offhand with cripple that isn't bad. Berserker is better because of speed boost on Zerk and Skull Grinder mini leap + cripple debuff. Greatsword even has a gap closer that doubles as a disengage, and a ranged cripple.

 

I come from World of Warcraft and feel like an absolute mook with no snares or roots of any variety. Uptime should be as near as possible to 100% when on target, and that's a game that has a teleport-charge on a short cooldown with a built in root.

 

I would bet that anyone using MH mace who wasn't doing it as a joke or RPing as a failure probably prioritizes landing Skull Crack as a setup for something that actually does damage like a Greatsword.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 hours ago, TugboatSteve.3607 said:

When I think of Defense, I think a rework is needed, and I don't think rework in the sense of tweaking some details of the mechanics, or tweaking some numbers, I think much of the tree needs to be scrapped and redone with some focus on build diversity.

 

There is so little in Defense that can actually be described as Defense. There's so much that is outside of player control and automatically proccing conditional garbage, as well as perplexing traits like reducing 5% damage passively while above 75% health. Things like Rousing Resilience are not well designed traits even if they provide a situationally powerful benefit. It's a frustrating trait that requires you to build stunbreaks into your build and your rotation and hope to God someone stuns you and has a power build to boot, since the extra T does nothing against Condi (which you're sacrificing Cleansing Ire to get). Considering how prevalent condition builds are, I don't find this trait particularly appealing.

 

Maybe I'm dumb, but I don't really get most of the stuff in this tree, with the exception of Cleansing Ire, and that's only because of the rampant amount of condition spamming that I find intolerable without it. One application of weakness neuters my damage output unless I can remove it. One application of Cripple and I am locked down.

 

Apart from healing and condition cleansing, I'm not seeing anything explicitly "defensive" in the defense tree. 

 

Some things in the tree that are brainbending from a design standpoint to me. I just don't understand what the design logic was behind some of these.

 

Shield Master - 1 second of might on block

Wow. This would be meaningful if I took Strength. Not Defense. Nothing about this skill meaningfully changes the way shield is used. Shield is still used for 4 and 5, for set-ups for kills and for turtling on a single weapon set that is used for nothing else before swapping back to primary. Can this be redesigned into something that integrates the shield more meaningfully into the class? Why is shield only for a weapon offset that is for nothing more than pressing 4 and 5 and then switching back to the primary weapon set? There isn't even a meaningful way to build around the shield, a distinctive warrior tool. Instead, the shield is a utility kit for a greatsword. This button does nothing to change that.

 

The reflection of projectiles is also bizarre to me - this provides no defensive benefit and really fundamentally makes blocking more offensive. This is, however, the only meaningful component that encourages builds to maximize the benefit and changes somewhat how the ability can be used offensively, notably to reflect ranged projectiles that inflict stuns and knock backs that often take rangers and thieves by surprise.

 

Other than that, it is the same cookie cutter "reduce weapon specialty cooldown by 20%" seen in every other tree in the game. This might be intriguing if I didn't have two long cooldown abilities that once spent will force a weapon swap. I'm not going to take two weapon sets with shield just so I can shave off 5 seconds on my block cooldown. And I'm not going to change how I use shield with this ability. If I survive long enough to use block a second time even when traited, it's probably because I switched to a different weapon and used those tools to do so. With 5-10 second weapon swaps, this is how shield will continue to be used, in nearly every build. More frequent Shield bash setups and not much else.

 

It makes me sad when I compare the fluidity of Shield Slam on Protection Warrior in World of Warcraft and how it is weaved into the rotation and class identity and then compare this to the glorified utility kit that is shield on warrior in Guild Wars.

 

But I suppose that's fundamentally how shield is designed for warrior. Two utility buttons on an offset. I wonder if anyone gets value explicitly out of getting 4 seconds off on Shield Bash, but then I notice that most net builds omit Defense altogether despite almost exclusively using a shield offset, and having no defensive posture in their build  (e.g. typically power greatsword).

 

Armored Attack - 10% toughness converted to power.

Pretty useless in PvP on account of the limited selection of power+toughness amulets and again, provides no intrinsic Defense. Things like Dolyak Signet are not affected. Minimal scaling ratio means this is generally lost value unless I have the option of deliberately building high T, so it's more something that affects opportunity cost. In an ideal world this would be nice, ends up feeling bad due to excessive restriction on build options and ringfenced stat ratios. Conversely, powerful in PvE.

 

Defy Pain - 300 second CD stunbreak

procs on dropping below 50% health, not on stun. What

 

Last Stand - 300 second CD stunbreak with 1 extra second on stance abilities

Why would I ever take this over Cleansing Ire.

 

Cull the Weak

kicks in automatically at <50% target health and combines a nominal increase in damage with the weakness condition. Ironically synergizes poorly with the best weapon at weakness application, Mace, because it re-applies a condition you can already apply with auto-attack. Why would I be concerned about applying weakness when target is <50%, when I would be more concerned about locking down my target and applying pressure than mitigating their strike damage? Why does this need to be conditioned on <50% target health? Why does this need to alternate between oppressive and useless depending on my target's health percentage? Why would I take this trait? In what build would it be meaningful? Is the purpose of a defensive build to apply pressure on weak targets? Does anyone use this trait?

 

Would this not make more sense in the Strength tree and be more thematic besides?

 

I don't know, maybe I just don't get it. Defense just looks gross to me. I like the theme of a Protection Warrior from WoW, I am invited by the beautiful art of a warrior in full plate with a shield, then I read the skills and I feel like I am reading a mishmash of rejects from other trait lines instead of something that actually exhibits the flavor art and text in the details.

Well said.  This is probably the most comprehensive (and passionate!) critique of Defense that I've seen all in one place.  You raise excellent points, and I wholeheartedly agree with you.  The suggestions in the OP were intended to address some of the issues you've identified in the existing trait line.  I'd be interested to hear your thoughts!

 

2 hours ago, TugboatSteve.3607 said:

I've deliberately tried doing this to punish myself. Specifically MH mace.

 

I actually find the most noxious thing to be the lack of any kind of cripple or movement ability. It tethers you to walk speed. Unless you like chasing people and/or getting bogged down in AoE hell on a capture node. My favorite is watching Skull Crack hit air because someone moved out of melee range while I waddle around.

 

When I watch flavor warriors play in arena, they're typically spinning around with Greatswords because they have excellent movement and a good variety of utility. There is no offhand with cripple that isn't bad. Berserker is better because of speed boost on Zerk and Skull Grinder mini leap + cripple debuff. Greatsword even has a gap closer that doubles as a disengage, and a ranged cripple.

 

I come from World of Warcraft and feel like an absolute mook with no snares or roots of any variety. Uptime should be as near as possible to 100% when on target, and that's a game that has a teleport-charge on a short cooldown with a built in root.

 

I would bet that anyone using MH mace who wasn't doing it as a joke or RPing as a failure probably prioritizes landing Skull Crack as a setup for something that actually does damage like a Greatsword.

 

I know right?  Fighting with Mace is horrible.  I would very much like to see it re-worked so it could be viable.  We recently had some discussion along those lines here if you wanted to check it out and weigh in with your thoughts: 

 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 hours ago, Acyk.9671 said:

 

In name yes but i don't know how to rework a trait into "oh crap" without making it a passive and a 60sec+ CD again.

I need to think more about it or we keep defy pain as is (300s) and we change armored attack to my idea.

So many traits aren't even decent in this trait line, it's depressing...

For Defy Pain, I am a little biased but I think the suggestion in the OP could work well:

Defy Pain:  Gain +180 toughness.  Gain 5s each of Protection and Resolution when your health drops below 50% (45s CD). 

 

But I really like the boons-on-burst mechanic that you described.  @Lan Deathrider.5910 this could be the way we get you resistance on burst you were describing (without tying it to Adrenal Healing, which imo would be a bit much for a minor trait).  Consider this:

 

Armored Attack: Gain 2s Protection and 2s Resistance on burst use.

 

We'd be trading Resolution (Acyk's original suggestion) for resistance.  I think that's probably fair, as otherwise we'd have way too much damage mitigation (33% dmg reduction from protection PLUS 33% condi dmg reduction AND and additional 10% dmg reduction from resolution) every 5-8 seconds when you attempt a burst.  For the sake of balance, we should probably get either protection or resolution, not both.  But a short burst of Resistance to clear blinds and weakness would be a tremendous boost to our offense--and thus would be true to both the "armored" and "attack" parts of the trait.

 

Since players would have to choose between Defy Pain and Armored Attack, there wouldn't be the issue of people getting "too much" sustain from these traits, but both would have compelling uses.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Combining what we had discussed in the omnibus, seeing suggestions here and changing some old retal features, I tried to merge everything together:

 

Adrenal Health moved to the Minor Master slot to enforce its place as the main traitline mechanic.

 

Minor Master Adrenal Health : Gain health (1,490) based on adrenaline spent (max of 3 stacks). Once at max stacks, gain Barrier equal to 10% of your max health.

 

Major Adept 1 Defense Expert : Reflect missiles while you are blocking. Missiles you would destroy are reflected instead. Shield skills gain reduced recharge (20%). Gain pulsing adrenaline (7 adrenaline per 1s interval for 2s) after a successful reflect (12s ICD). Clarification that the CD is on the Adrenaline gain

 

Major Adept 2 Dogged March : Reduce the duration of movement-impeding conditions (66%) and gain Resistance (3s) when affected by such conditions (10s ICD)

 

Major Adept 3 Cull the Weak : Critical hits have a chance of inflicting weakness (66%) (3s). Increased outgoing damage to weakened foes (7%) (5s ICD)

 

Minor Adept Thick Skin : Reduce incoming damage (5%).

 

Major Master 1 Defy Pain : Gain Protection and Resolution for 5s when struck below the health threshold (50%) (20s ICD).

 

Major Master 2 Armored Attack : Gain Toughness based on Power (10%). Gain Resolution (4s) when you inflict weakness on a foe. Gaining Resolution grants you might (3 stacks for 5s).

 

Major Master 3 Sundering Mace : CC applied lasts longer (15% if no Mace rework). CC applied by mace skills have double duration (30%) and apply Confusion on successful hit (3 stacks for 5s if Mace rework). Mace skills gain reduced recharge (20%). 

 

Minor Grandmaster Spiked Armor : Gain Resolution when you block or are inflicted by conditions (1 condition to trigger, 5s). Resolution gives you damage reduction (10%).

 

Major Grandmaster 1 Last Stand : Become immune to critical hits (4 sec) when CC'd (30 sec ICD). Stances grant Vigor and Resolution upon activation (5 sec) and have increased durations (+2 sec).

 

Major Grandmaster 2 Cleansing Ire : Gain adrenaline when hit (+1). Landing a successful Burst removes a condition per adrenaline bar spent. Pulse regeneration (5 s, 15 s ICD) when in combat. 

 

Major Grandmaster 3 Rousing Resilience : Gain toughness (up to 1,000) (4s) and health (500) when you break out of a stun. Periodically gain stacks of adrenal health after the initial heal (1st stack after 2s, 2nd stack after 3s, 3rd stack after 4s). 

OR 

Major Grandmaster 3 Resilient Champion: Gain stability (1 stack, 4s) and Might (3 stacks, 5s) when breaking a stun. Gain reduced strike dmg while having stability (no stack threshold, flat 5% mitigation). 

 

The idea behind this change is to move Rousing Resilience to Eternal Champion on Zerker with the idea of: Gain toughness while in berserk mode (counters the toughness reduction) , gain additional toughness (100) and even more if a stun was broken (up to 900 for 8s to match current RR). This allows for some more stab to be accessed in core warrior, some good synergy for all specs and gives berserker the identity of requiring toughness to operate. 

 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Grand Marshal.4098 I see what you did there with Armored Attack.

@CalmTheStorm.2364 I still think the resistance should be tied to Adrenal Health, but that's my opinion.

We all have pretty good ideas, and all of them would work vastly better that what we currently have.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Just now, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Grand Marshal.4098 I see what you did there with Armored Attack.

@CalmTheStorm.2364 I still think the resistance should be tied to Adrenal Health, but that's my opinion.

We all have pretty good ideas, and all of them would work vastly better that what we currently have.

I think it's the only way of introducing toughness gains that's not time gated like RR into warr and it honestly makes sense. You build for power and get some toughness to defend yourself even in glass gear. 

 

Unless if we pull a great fortitude and say gain toughness and precision (the dmg Stat) based on power or vitality, but I'm not sure how it would scale with certain gear stats.. Better keep it simple. A toughness gain. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I think it's the only way of introducing toughness gains that's not time gated like RR into warr and it honestly makes sense. You build for power and get some toughness to defend yourself even in glass gear. 

Oh I wasn't talking about the toughness lol. Think back to some trait and rune synergy.

3 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Unless if we pull a great fortitude and say gain toughness and precision (the dmg Stat) based on power or vitality, but I'm not sure how it would scale with certain gear stats.. Better keep it simple. A toughness gain. 

I do think there should be a toughness gain, even if conditional on wielding a certain weapon, in the traitline.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

2 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Oh I wasn't talking about the toughness lol. Think back to some trait and rune synergy.

I do think there should be a toughness gain, even if conditional on wielding a certain weapon, in the traitline.

Just realized... 

 

Mega op aristocracy body blow/Armored attack/cull the weak core warr?? 😱

 

I wouldn't mind if we had something op for a bit. And I don't think it would be that op tbh. 

Heh

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Just realized... 

 

Mega op aristocracy body blow/Armored attack/cull the weak core warr?? 😱

 

I wouldn't mind if we had something op for a bit. And I don't think it would be that op tbh. 

Heh

And then pair it with a sigil of ruthlessness and realize that you just suggested a potential 13 might/interrupt every 3s. Pair that with Tactics and Strength and you have 1,950 self healing and 26 endurance gained every 3s with 500 Healing power. 4,810 healing with Phalanx Strength pumping might to your full team. Then port that into WvW with even more healing power is available (I'll save you the time, a full Healing Power build with Aristocracy Runes would be 6,000 HP/ 3s).

This is why you see me pump the brakes on some suggestions, you have to keep in mind what CAN be done with the change. This is also why I try to suggestion sustain updates that don't include might.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

4 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

And then pair it with a sigil of ruthlessness and realize that you just suggested a potential 13 might/interrupt every 3s. Pair that with Tactics and Strength and you have 1,950 self healing and 26 endurance gained every 3s with 500 Healing power. 4,810 healing with Phalanx Strength pumping might to your full team. Then port that into WvW with even more healing power is available (I'll save you the time, a full Healing Power build with Aristocracy Runes would be 6,000 HP/ 3s).

This is why you see me pump the brakes on some suggestions, you have to keep in mind what CAN be done with the change. This is also why I try to suggestion sustain updates that don't include might.

Its OK dw Lan. This will be our Trapper rune build 😎

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Its OK dw Lan. This will be our Trapper rune build 😎

Don't get us nerfed more bro >< lol

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

10 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Combining what we had discussed in the omnibus, seeing suggestions here and changing some old retal features, I tried to merge everything together:

 

Adrenal Health moved to the Minor Master slot to enforce its place as the main traitline mechanic.

 

Minor Master Adrenal Health : Gain health (1,490) based on adrenaline spent (max of 3 stacks). Once at max stacks, gain Barrier equal to 10% of your max health.

 

Major Adept 1 Defense Expert : Reflect missiles while you are blocking. Missiles you would destroy are reflected instead. Shield skills gain reduced recharge (20%). Gain pulsing adrenaline (7 adrenaline per 1s interval for 2s) after a successful reflect (12s ICD). Clarification that the CD is on the Adrenaline gain

 

Major Adept 2 Dogged March : Reduce the duration of movement-impeding conditions (66%) and gain Resistance (3s) when affected by such conditions (10s ICD)

 

Major Adept 3 Cull the Weak : Critical hits have a chance of inflicting weakness (66%) (3s). Increased outgoing damage to weakened foes (7%) (5s ICD)

 

Minor Adept Thick Skin : Reduce incoming damage (5%).

 

Major Master 1 Defy Pain : Gain Protection and Resolution for 5s when struck below the health threshold (50%) (20s ICD).

 

Major Master 2 Armored Attack : Gain Toughness based on Power (10%). Gain Resolution (4s) when you inflict weakness on a foe. Gaining Resolution grants you might (3 stacks for 5s).

 

Major Master 3 Sundering Mace : CC applied lasts longer (15% if no Mace rework). CC applied by mace skills have double duration (30%) and apply Confusion on successful hit (3 stacks for 5s if Mace rework). Mace skills gain reduced recharge (20%). 

 

Minor Grandmaster Spiked Armor : Gain Resolution when you block or are inflicted by conditions (1 condition to trigger, 5s). Resolution gives you damage reduction (10%).

 

Major Grandmaster 1 Last Stand : Become immune to critical hits (4 sec) when CC'd (30 sec ICD). Stances grant Vigor and Resolution upon activation (5 sec) and have increased durations (+2 sec).

 

Major Grandmaster 2 Cleansing Ire : Gain adrenaline when hit (+1). Landing a successful Burst removes a condition per adrenaline bar spent. Pulse regeneration (5 s, 15 s ICD) when in combat. 

 

Major Grandmaster 3 Rousing Resilience : Gain toughness (up to 1,000) (4s) and health (500) when you break out of a stun. Periodically gain stacks of adrenal health after the initial heal (1st stack after 2s, 2nd stack after 3s, 3rd stack after 4s). 

OR 

Major Grandmaster 3 Resilient Champion: Gain stability (1 stack, 4s) and Might (3 stacks, 5s) when breaking a stun. Gain reduced strike dmg while having stability (no stack threshold, flat 5% mitigation). 

 

The idea behind this change is to move Rousing Resilience to Eternal Champion on Zerker with the idea of: Gain toughness while in berserk mode (counters the toughness reduction) , gain additional toughness (100) and even more if a stun was broken (up to 900 for 8s to match current RR). This allows for some more stab to be accessed in core warrior, some good synergy for all specs and gives berserker the identity of requiring toughness to operate. 

 

 

 

These are some really good ideas, GM--thanks for posting these!

 

As Lan mentioned, there are lots of valid opinions and suggestions for how to make Defense better than it currently is (an admittedly low bar), so it's great to have multiple alternatives for the Devs to consider.

 

I do think that @Acyk.9671's idea to get defensive boons on burst use could be a revelation, though, and should certainly be included somewhere.  Even if literally nothing else in the Defense line changed, gaining 2s protection and 2s resistance on burst use (not hit) would be game-changing.  Being able to land your burst without fear of blinds/weakness robbing you of 50% of your damage output?  Night and day difference right there.  And the relatively high protection up-time would be significant for our sustain as well.  If I could make only one change to boost Defense, it would be this.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

6 hours ago, Acyk.9671 said:

I don't really know about resistance on burst man, it may be too game changing as it negates every counter on burst skill. It also falls more into offensive capabilities than actually providing defense and i don't know to what extent Anet want Defense trait line tied to offensive capabilities... Maybe 1s of resistance on burst is more appropriate for Discipline.

Tell me but we need to hit the mark on this one.

Do we want dps spellbreaker to have access to 6s resistance when refreshing F1 with F2 (without concentration)? My first thought was 1s of each boon on reso/prot instead of 2 but it's not enough. I'm afraid of the impact concentration can have on warrior with access to long duration boons.

 

NB: They should switch the names between resistance and resolution. Resolve is to "keep going", resistance speaks for itself.

 

Yeah, 2s each Protection and Resistance might be too much for every burst.  I think you could fix it with installing a 5s CD on it; that way you couldn't pull off back-to-back bursts.  This would allow for, theoretically, a maximum of 40% up-time of Protection and Resistance (provided you were actually bursting every 5 seconds, which is highly unlikely in practice).  That would be plenty strong, but would also provide windows when we would be vulnerable--and those windows of vulnerability are longer than the windows of protection.  So that seems balanced in my eyes, especially when you compare it to the high boon up-time that other classes have.

 

And yes, you're right--Resolution and Resistance really should have their functions swapped.  Good catch 🙂 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

8 hours ago, Acyk.9671 said:

You need to apply balance to those changes, most are bloated in effect to the point it's sometimes hard to understand what effect it's supposed to have. You also do not take boon duration enough into account. I'm all for rework but not if if we get nerfed to the ground one week later. 😉 

 

I'm not a fan of gaining adrenaline passively or as a defensive option. Anet should have kept some adrenaline on Rage or Shouts so we thematically pump ourselves because relying entirely on specific skills is boring. 

 

I don't really know about resistance on burst man, it may be too game changing as it negates every counter on burst skill. It also falls more into offensive capabilities than actually providing defense and i don't know to what extent Anet want Defense trait line tied to offensive capabilities... Maybe 1s of resistance on burst is more appropriate for Discipline.

Tell me but we need to hit the mark on this one.

Do we want dps spellbreaker to have access to 6s resistance when refreshing F1 with F2 (without concentration)? My first thought was 1s of each boon on reso/prot instead of 2 but it's not enough. I'm afraid of the impact concentration can have on warrior with access to long duration boons.

 

NB: They should switch the names between resistance and resolution. Resolve is to "keep going", resistance speaks for itself.

Aside from Armored Attack and Dogged March, the rest is ok. Nothing to nerf there. The resistance in dogged march can be reduced to 1s (which is nothing with the current state of resistance) or have it's ICD increased to15s. The whole purpose of the reworks is not for them to create op combos with current specs, SpB also needs tweaking including imo, removal of Featherfoot Grace resistance and a reduce in the resistance of revenge counter at the benefit of added resolution.

 

Armored attack may be a bit bloated but that purely based off synergy reasons. Removel the resolution gaina nd it's still a viable option, far more viasble than what we have now. Veryr arely will warrior's build for concentration outside the disgusting bubble bots which are part of boon balls already securing perma access to all boons.

 

If the team is some incompetent to not pass our ideas through a "filter" before applying them, then the best option after a rework that gets nerfed is to drop the game frankly.

 

Sorry if I sounded to aggressive. It is painful to see the need for warrior to be limited this much even when it comes to theorycrafting, because what you said is true. I would not advise for bursts to be unable to be countered though, only means of allowing us to survive mid combat and between our bursts fro defense, nothing to improve them aside from Cleansing Ire procing with adrenaline consumption (again, almost no warrior builds up healing power to terribly scale their adrenal health up, so that heal is not an issue anyway since it's time gated and resource gated).

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

9 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

 I would not advise for bursts to be unable to be countered though, only means of allowing us to survive mid combat and between our bursts fro defense, nothing to improve them aside from Cleansing Ire procing with adrenaline consumption (again, almost no warrior builds up healing power to terribly scale their adrenal health up, so that heal is not an issue anyway since it's time gated and resource gated).

I'm not entirely sure what you meant by this, GM, but I think you were referring to the idea of having Protection and Resistance proc on burst use in the proposed change to Armored Attack--please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Getting Resistance on burst would make bursts harder to counter, but what certainly not make them uncounterable.  Resistance removes the ability to be blinded or weakened, sure, but you can still block, evade, move out of range, LOS, hide in stealth, CC, etc.  Definitely still lots of ways to counter Warrior bursts.  And, given that our bursts are either extremely telegraphed (e.g., Eviscerate, Decapitate, Combustive shot, Kill shot) and/or must be done in melee range (e.g., Arcing Slice, Skull Crack, Flurry, etc),  there is plenty of opportunity for an opponent to employ whatever countermeasures his class has to offer.  Moreover, our burst attacks are a huge part of a Warrior's DPS output; thus, things that prevent a Warrior from landing his burst (like blind or weakness) have a disproportionate effect on Warrior's viability.  It thus makes sense to have a trait (notably in a trait line without many other offensive attributes) that can mitigate at least a few of the ways that a Warrior's burst can be defeated.