Change Request Series: Seriously Small Modifiers.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Cal Cohen.2358/ @Cal Cohen.3527, good morning. Seriously, what is up with some of these miniscule modifiers man. It feels like at times warrior has to hunt around for a decent modifier where as some classes can stack multiple +25% damage modifiers and turn a 1.36 scaling modifier skill into a +10k damage  skill on a 4s CD (you know who you are *glares*).

 

Now there is also a disconnect here between PvP and WvW with one particular trait, but for the most part you need to step up the damage modifiers (3%->5%, 7%->10%).

 

Problem: Modifiers that are too tiny relative to what warrior needs and relative to current balance

 

Solution:

Peak Performance: 3% -> 5%, bonus buff: 7%->10%

Warrior's Sprint: 3% -> 5%

Burst Mastery: 7%-> 10% (PvE as well here)

Leg Specialist: 7% -> 10%

Cull the Weak: 7% ->10%

 

PvP only: Warrior's Cunning: Damage versus high HP foes 7% -> 10%, Damage versus foes with Barrier: 10% -> 20%, see discussion below before any freak outs. I really hope you didn't spit out your Vos.

 

Discussion: A large number of warriors feel like that damage is lacking at the moment on our end relative to what other classes are able to put out. Part of that I believe is from damage modifiers that are too low within the traitlines, specifically Peak Performance and Warrior's Sprint. Some also believe that Bursts are too low damage for how telegraphed they are. The first 5 changes above address all those needs. You also note that 4 of those effectively remove the PvE and Competitive mode splits. Those aren't needed everywhere, and indeed there are traits and skills without splits. In these cases these 4 traits in this current meta should not be as low as they are.

Now, about that Warrior's Cunning change. There is a problem in PvP with certain specs overloading barrier on themselves and any ally within range. Indeed the PvP forums are filled with calls to nerf that particular spec into the ground. The problem really is that there is no real counter to it. This is the natural counter to it, but only if you let it be. With the current numbers on the trait it cannot effectively counter said spec. Even with the WvW values I sometimes have trouble getting through all the barrier said spec can put out there (to be 100% fair I was on rifle, but I was using Volley and KS and still not depleting the barrier).

Coupled with the above recommended changes Warriors of any spec that take Tactics will be able to help their team take down the barrier spamming can.cer spec, you'll solve a balance problem without have to nerf that problem spec. The numbers I suggested also are nowhere near the PvE or WvW values. That said if this buff is inefficient in countering said barrier spamming can.cer spec, then it may be a good idea to buff the numbers a little higher before resulting in nerfing that spec.

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Lan Deathrider.5910
Seriously, check your forum filters. WTF is can.cer censored...

[Infusion.7149]

IMO other classes should have their modifiers dropped a bit. +15 or 20% modifiers when stacked make a huge disparity against underperforming builds. In recent memory the most recent reduction of the cap on Laser's Edge (holo) from 25% to 15%. They claim that some players do 10x damage compared other players yet damage from skills isn't focused on and instead they are putting more modifiers. If the damage is from skills themselves it helps with balance because if a person is lazy and doesn't use their top damage skills then they do less damage ; likewise a class bringing all support utilities would do less by virtue of some damage being from utility skills (banner warrior is the perfect example as you lose 4K DPS running banner ; CFB is losing ~8K while running quickness build mainly due to loss of 8 pages trait and not so much the mantra of flame ; condi RR loses only ~3K DPS).

The outliers include

Spoiler

* Destruction of the Empowered on Warrior (+3% per boon on target) --- no complaints about this since it's not that relevant in PVE and PVP/WVW people try to strip boons
* Modified Ammunition on Engineer (+2% per condition on target)
* Exposed Weakness on Thief (+2% per condition on target)
* Unscathed Contender on Guardian (+20% under Aegis) --- usually "abused" on Adina
* Bloody Roar on Berserker (+20% in Berserk mode)
* Predator's Onslaught on Ranger (+15% vs movement impaired)
* Furious Strength on Soulbeast (+15% while under fury)
* Pet's Prowess on Ranger (+300 ferocity = 20% crit as long as you are merged)
* No Quarter on Thief in PVP/WVW ( +300 ferocity = 20% crit under fury)
* Fresh Air on Elementalist / Vicious Quarry on Ranger / No Quarter in PVE on Thief (+250 ferocity under fury = 16.7% crit)
* Bountiful Power on Elementalist (2% per boon)
* Kalla's Fervor traited with Lasting Legacy on Renegade (3% per stack , up to 5 stacks )
* Big Game Hunter on DH (15% vs tethered)
* Heavy Light on DH (15% vs disabled targets)
* Cold Shoulder on Reaper (15% vs Chilled)  --- kept in check by Reaper overall DPS
* Vicious Expression on Mesmer (15% vs boonless) --- not great in PVP/WVW other than for boon rips
* Pure Strike on Spellbreaker (+14% vs boonless , 7% otherwise)
* Superiority Complex on Mesmer (+15% Crit damage)
* Havoc Specialist on Daredevil (+5% per endurance missing , up to 15%) , to lesser extent
* Object in Motion on Scrapper (+5% for Stability/Superspeed/Swiftness) , to lesser extent
* Forceful Persistence on Herald (+13% under upkeep skills) , to a far lesser extent
* Reinforced Potency on Herald  / Empowered on Warrior / Inspired Virtue on Guardian / Bountiful Hunter on Ranger (1% per boon) is not a huge disparity over 10% or so

+20% vs <50% health (Bolt to the Heart, Executioner, Close to Death, Swift Termination) is essentially +10% overall.

The last change to soulbeast's Furious Strength from 10% in PVE to 15% (in May 2021 patch) was a change I was very much against since they could have just reverted OWP (One Wolf Pack) instead ; now you have a cooldown that doesn't line up well and a spec that is even more modifier stacked.

I don't feel Peak Performance needs that much help. Physical skill cooldown reduction is a rather strong effect already, with some key skills as far as competitive goes being physical type: mending, bull's charge, etc.

For Warrior's Sprint I'd rather have an added bonus for superspeed for example (see Swift Revenge on weaver) , that would make it more potent with the WvW scrapper meta as well as on Berserker spec. It's an okay trait due to the passive movement improvement and immob counter but swiftness is not easily obtained as warrior outside running Burst Mastery. If you run Charge it means you have a warhorn , which you give up blocks/mobility/damage for.

Burst Mastery isn't run over Axe Mastery in PVE. 240 ferocity is such a large ferocity boost in PVE (16% crit) that it would never really compete. If you don't have reliable swiftness , the swiftness helps with the Warrior's Sprint 3% / 10% bonus so I don't feel this is a good place for changes.

When you propose letting Leg Specialist have a 10% modifier, you're essentially asking them to unsplit PVE from PVP/WVW since it has 10% modifier in PVE.

Cull the Weak currently isn't run in PVE because Defense is typically not used. Obviously in competitive modes Defense traitline needs serious help due to the 300s cooldowns , just making this go from 7% to 10% modifier doesn't change this.

Warrior's Cunning could be unsplit from PVP as you stated. It hasn't caused issues in WVW but it would mainly penalize weavers as scrappers , scourges, and warriors with warhorns or rangers with "Protect Me" don't make small amounts of barrier but large ones instead.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

55 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

IMO other classes should have their modifiers dropped a bit. +15 or 20% modifiers when stacked make a huge disparity against underperforming builds. In recent memory the most recent reduction of the cap on Laser's Edge (holo) from 25% to 15%. They claim that some players do 10x damage compared other players yet damage from skills isn't focused on and instead they are putting more modifiers. If the damage is from skills themselves it helps with balance because if a person is lazy and doesn't use their top damage skills then they do less damage ; likewise a class bringing all support utilities would do less by virtue of some damage being from utility skills (banner warrior is the perfect example as you lose 4K DPS running banner ; CFB is losing ~8K while running quickness build mainly due to loss of 8 pages trait and not so much the mantra of flame ; condi RR loses only ~3K DPS).

I don't necessarily disagree, but I would rather buff one class then nerf several others just to make that one class better. It is true that if warrior is Cal's gold standard for balance, then most of the other specs still need heavy nerfs. The alternative is to realize that this just keeps warrior arbitrarily down while others are allowed to run amok and instead give warrior the hand up that it needs.

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The outliers include

  Reveal hidden contents

* Destruction of the Empowered on Warrior (+3% per boon on target) --- no complaints about this since it's not that relevant in PVE and PVP/WVW people try to strip boons
* Modified Ammunition on Engineer (+2% per condition on target)
* Exposed Weakness on Thief (+2% per condition on target)
* Unscathed Contender on Guardian (+20% under Aegis) --- usually "abused" on Adina
* Bloody Roar on Berserker (+20% in Berserk mode)
* Predator's Onslaught on Ranger (+15% vs movement impaired)
* Furious Strength on Soulbeast (+15% while under fury)
* Pet's Prowess on Ranger (+300 ferocity = 20% crit as long as you are merged)
* No Quarter on Thief in PVP/WVW ( +300 ferocity = 20% crit under fury)
* Fresh Air on Elementalist / Vicious Quarry on Ranger / No Quarter in PVE on Thief (+250 ferocity under fury = 16.7% crit)
* Bountiful Power on Elementalist (2% per boon)
* Kalla's Fervor traited with Lasting Legacy on Renegade (3% per stack , up to 5 stacks )
* Big Game Hunter on DH (15% vs tethered)
* Cold Shoulder on Reaper (15% vs Chilled)  --- kept in check by Reaper overall DPS
* Vicious Expression on Mesmer (15% vs boonless) --- not great in PVP/WVW other than for boon rips
* Pure Strike on Spellbreaker (+14% vs boonless , 7% otherwise)
* Superiority Complex on Mesmer (+15% Crit damage)
* Havoc Specialist on Daredevil (+5% per endurance missing , up to 15%) , to lesser extent
* Object in Motion on Scrapper (+5% for Stability/Superspeed/Swiftness) , to lesser extent
* Forceful Persistence on Herald (+13% under upkeep skills) , to a far lesser extent
* Reinforced Potency on Herald  / Empowered on Warrior / Inspired Virtue on Guardian / Bountiful Hunter on Ranger (1% per boon) is not a huge disparity over 10% or so

+20% vs <50% health (Bolt to the Heart, Executioner, Close to Death, Swift Termination) is essentially +10% overall.

The last change to soulbeast Furious Strength from 10% in PVE to 15% (in May 2021 patch) was a change I was very much against since they could have just reverted OWP (One Wolf Pack) instead ; now you have a cooldown that doesn't lineup well and a spec that is even more modifier stacked.

I don't feel Peak Performance needs that much help. Physical skill cooldown reduction is a rather strong effect already, with some key skills as far as competitive goes being physical type: mending, bull's charge, etc.

For Warrior's Sprint I'd rather have an added bonus for superspeed for example , that would make it more potent with the WvW scrapper meta as well as on Berserker spec. It's an okay trait due to the passive movement improvement and immob counter but swiftness is not easily obtained as warrior outside running Burst Mastery. If you run Charge it means you have a warhorn , which you give up blocks/mobility/damage for.

Adding in an extra modifier if you have superspeed is all well and good, but that is not what Cal can do, which is who these series are directed at.

Quote

Burst Mastery isn't run over Axe Mastery in PVE. 240 ferocity is such a large ferocity boost in PVE (16% crit) that it would never really compete. If you don't have reliable swiftness . the swiftness helps with the Warrior's Sprint 10% bonus so I don't feel this is a good place for changes.

BM is also an adrenaline refund, which is nice on non axe builds. Also remember that it's damage modifier is multiplied on a critical as well. So unless you are running Axe, then Burst Mastery is very useful, its just a small modifier for a GM tier trait which I am addressing here.

Quote

When you propose letting Leg Specialist have a 10% modifier, you're essentially asking them to unsplit PVE from PVP/WVW since it has 10% modifier in PVE.

I did address that. Splits are not needed on everything afterall.

Quote

Cull the Weak currently isn't run in PVE because Defense is typically not used. Obviously in competitive modes Defense traitline needs serious help due to the 300s cooldowns , just making this go from 7% to 10% modifier doesn't change this.

Defense needs more for sure, but this is not a Defense specific thread, but one about damage modifiers in particular. Defense overall needs more than what Cal can do for it.

Quote

Warrior's Cunning could be unsplit from PVP as you stated. It hasn't caused issues in WVW but it would mainly penalize weavers as scrappers , scourges, and warriors with warhorns or rangers with "Protect Me" don't make small amounts of barrier but large ones instead.

 

 

It hasn't caused many issues in WvW because the overall defenses are also higher there. When it was unsplit from WvW it got quickly overnerfed to where it is now, but that was also prior to the Feb2020 patch. It may be fair to unsplit it from WvW again. I'm being cautious on this one, as unhealthy specs are not good to have around. I'm nudging Cal here towards setting up a hard counter to large barrier spammers without creating a monster for scrappers and weavers to deal with.

 

Thanks for your commentary and thoughts! 😄

Edited September 10, 2021 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I don't necessarily disagree, but I would rather buff one class then nerf several others just to make that one class better. It is true that if warrior is Cal's gold standard for balance, then most of the other specs still need heavy nerfs. The alternative is to realize that this just keeps warrior arbitrarily down while others are allowed to run amok and instead give warrior the hand up that it needs.

Adding in an extra modifier if you have superspeed is all well and good, but that is not what Cal can do, which is who these series are directed at.

BM is also an adrenaline refund, which is nice on non axe builds. Also remember that it's damage modifier is multiplied on a critical as well. So unless you are running Axe, then Burst Mastery is very useful, its just a small modifier for a GM tier trait which I am addressing here.

I did address that. Splits are not needed on everything afterall.

Defense needs more for sure, but this is not a Defense specific thread, but one about damage modifiers in particular. Defense overall needs more than what Cal can do for it.

It hasn't caused many issues in WvW because the overall defenses are also higher there. When it was unsplit from WvW it got quickly overnerfed to where it is now, but that was also prior to the Feb2020 patch. It may be fair to unsplit it from WvW again. I'm being cautious on this one, as unhealthy specs are not good to have around. I'm nudging Cal here towards setting up a hard counter to large barrier spammers without creating a monster for scrappers and weavers to deal with.

I am not saying un-splitting things is bad. On the contrary it streamlines their codebase.

Barrier on scrapper is still 10% of outgoing damage in PVP instead of 15% (in PVE/WVW). This means if you hit more than one target it is still quite a lot of barrier output (for example if you hit two people for 1K DPS you get 200 barrier/second , in reality it's more because I get about 2K autoattack damage on heavy PVP golem with marauder amulet + scholar rune) for no investment or resource usage ; let's not forget scrapper is far less popular in PVP compared to holo. Weavers need to use dual attacks or the barrier on dodge from Invigorating Strikes. The meta fire weaver is using stance skills with sage amulet (with healing power) to output ~900 barriers (~400 barriers on dual attacks).

If they're using warrior as the standard for competitive balance then some things are definitely overperforming. I still don't understand the rationale of having 100% of the PVE quickness on scrapper gyros in WVW when mantra of potence on Firebrand is only 1s base duration in WVW for example ; Seize the moment on chrono is also split. If there's one thing that should be split it should be that: superspeed on gyros ought to be halved in WVW along with quickness from gyros.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

35 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I am not saying un-splitting things is bad. On the contrary it streamlines their codebase.

Barrier on scrapper is still 10% of outgoing damage in PVP instead of 15% (in PVE/WVW). This means if you hit more than one target it is still quite a lot of barrier output (for example if you hit two people for 1K DPS you get 200 barrier/second , in reality it's more because I get about 2K autoattack damage on heavy PVP golem with marauder amulet + scholar rune) for no investment or resource usage ; let's not forget scrapper is far less popular in PVP compared to holo. Weavers need to use dual attacks or the barrier on dodge from Invigorating Strikes. The meta fire weaver is using stance skills with sage amulet (with healing power) to output ~900 barriers (~400 barriers on dual attacks).

If they're using warrior as the standard for competitive balance then some things are definitely overperforming. I still don't understand the rationale of having 100% of the PVE quickness on scrapper gyros in WVW when mantra of potence on Firebrand is only 1s base duration in WVW for example ; Seize the moment on chrono is also split. If there's one thing that should be split it should be that: superspeed on gyros ought to be halved in WVW along with quickness from gyros.

I would certainly not complain if those nerfs ever happened, but as I said my focus is on how to make warrior better, not other classes worse. Both can happen at the same time certainly.

[Infusion.7149]

4 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I would certainly not complain if those nerfs ever happened, but as I said my focus is on how to make warrior better, not other classes worse. Both can happen at the same time certainly.

I guess less people would be complaining if warrior were buffed. I think that's why we have had steady powercreep since overall Arenanet has been nerf adverse for PVE (not for PVP though).

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I guess less people would be complaining if warrior were buffed. I think that's why we have had steady powercreep since overall Arenanet has been nerf adverse for PVE (not for PVP though).

Nerfs are okay, and people can be okay with them, so long as they are sensible nerfs that are not overboard. The problem is that Anet traditionally, ever since GW1, has had problems getting that right. They tend to overnerf more than they tend to overbuff.

[Infusion.7149]

3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Nerfs are okay, and people can be okay with them, so long as they are sensible nerfs that are not overboard. The problem is that Anet traditionally, ever since GW1, has had problems getting that right. They tend to overnerf more than they tend to overbuff.

I personally feel the confusion and mirage staff nerf was rather fair. It made it more viable outside two raids (SH+TL). Kind of offtopic, but just as an example.

The banner changes over the years on warrior still resulted in 37K DPS for full DPS warriors , it used to be +170 stats.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Infusion.7149