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Alliances - Perspective from a crucial demographic


Counterakt.9106

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Hello Anet,

WvW is my main game mode. I came to gw2 for wvw. I complete (begrudgingly) some pve content to get gear. While I appreciate all the effort you guys put into pve it is just not my cup of tea. 

Despite my 4k+ hours on wvw, I am a casual, I don't run with guilds because I would like to go afk at any point and can't commit to playing fixed times. I don't think I am alone in this boat. With a 9 year old game, lot of your playerbase who started this game when they were young moved on in life to bigger responsibilities. Every server has a bunch of people who are like me, only thing keeping us logging in day in and day out is the community and the cause (fighting for the realm). We are the ones who keep the content flowing between the peak hours, from one guild run to another, round the clock. We are not loyal to a guild, we are loyal to the server. Thick or thin we stick to the server. Alliances (as envisoned) is a gut punch to to this demographic. There is no realm pride to fight for anymore. Besides it is hard to find a guild that is good/active and have a role that you are happy with. Lot of high performing alliances are bound to break up (just like elite guilds) eventually leaving a lot of people bitter and homeless thereby discouraging them to log on. As much as I don't want it to, I think this will kill the content and the game mode eventually.

 

I am encouraged by all the effort you are putting into wvw, but the current implementation of Alliances is flawed IMHO. But it could be a win-win for everyone with a minor tweak.

Leave the servers alone, leave the people who don't choose an alliance alone, leave the pugs alone. Just keep rebalancing guilds based on your algorithms. Guildmates get to play with guildies, pugs are free to stay in the community they are used to and more importantly you don't take the unnecessary risk of messing up your own game and less code changes as added bonus. Everyone is happy. 

 

Thanks!

 

PS: To answer the inevitable, just form a community guild for your server and play comment, I like to play with different guilds. run with different commanders. Now people are forced to choose between a community guild vs their regular guild. Not all guilds get in thanks to the 500 member limit and this leads to bickering who gets in and who doesn't it, who has the final say in this, what are the standards for getting in, what are the rules, what if everyone doesn't agree to the rules. All this is again toxic to the community and would lead to aforementioned slow down in game traffic, IMHO.

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I’m wondering about this. The last couple weeks I’ve been working on getting a character ready to join WvW and one of the things people have been telling me is that the best on-ramp is to join my server’s discord channel.

I’ve got some time to do that, and hopefully by the time alliances are a permanent part of the game I’ll have found a WvW guild, but I wonder about WvW newcomers down the road.

No more VOIP you can jump into to meet people. I guess new players will just be placed by the lottery and end up seeking out guilds in chat?

Edited by Gibson.4036
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I just relax and will have a look at the system when its ready. then i will choose which alliance i think fits to me and apply for membership there. or i create my own who knows.

until then i am not scared to be lost in space later on or so. i think when anet really makes 500 people alliances all will look for members anyways and if you want to log of and on whenever you want just tell them that.

its a game and not a fight to survive in the end. its anets job to take care. if they dont i log off. i dont need gw2 cause i dont earn my income with it. anet does.

just relax and play or not is the best to do. easy, relax, no reason to think of gw2 future.

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1 hour ago, Counterakt.9106 said:

We are the ones who keep the content flowing between the peak hours, from one guild run to another, round the clock. We are not loyal to a guild, we are loyal to the server. Thick or thin we stick to the server.

You know that certain scene in Guardians Of The Galaxy, in the beginning with the temple? Thats you and the world.

The worlds will still keep going, they'll just have shuffled people on them. Per your solution, if a tiny amount of "loyalists" stay on a world and everyone else on it is new, whats the difference from it being a totally new world? Just the name. Stop being loyal to a name. Its not going to be loyal to you.

Edited by Dawdler.8521
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What people is loyal to is an idea and a community. A server name probably encloses these things, thus there's people saying they fight for "realm X" while it's really nothing unique except for the community and the idea they create in their mind. I'm not saying this is stupid or wrong. I actually understand it.

I'd just suggest these server communities to make a community guild and stick together with that. Most servers have it already but it's not really "felt" that much. With the new system instead, a community guild should actually become the point of reference for these player to stick together and keep up their group and idea. It's a shift of tools. Like when servers left websites and created discord servers for themselves. Now, server communities should create community guild and make alliance with any guild that wants to stick to the old server group. It's not that hard nor it limits player that much. It's just a matter to take a couple more steps and actualize the realm idea into a concrete group.

(Also, guild doesn't mean you'll have to organize things at certain times. It can also be just a place to find each other)

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1 hour ago, andymcollie.7602 said:

Both my wife and I are in 2 separate WvW guilds on our server  Guild 1 raiding on Monday and Wednesday and Guild 2 on Tuseday and Thursday, can anyone tell me how alliences is going to work for us, are we going to have to choose a single guild, and I am pretty sure we are not the only ones that this will affect

Since alliances wont be in the first beta week you'll have to get a divorce. Sorry.

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26 minutes ago, andymcollie.7602 said:

sorry i will rephrase, my wife and I are both in 2 guilds on the server  G1 on mon and Wed   G2 on Tues and Thurs  with alliences are we going to have to choose 1 guild

 

Ok so the question becomes do those two guilds want to play together?

If yes, then they can get into an alliance together and you both can pick whichever one to mark as your wvw one, and you all will get into the same world at creation.

If no then you both will have to decide which one you want to play with together, pick the same one to stay together.

 

If you both don't want to leave both your guilds, and both want to pick separate ones, and both guilds don't want to join together in an alliance, then you'll have to start playing in separate rooms so you don't spy on each other while in wvw!

 

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I plays solo 90% of the time. After the latest updates from Anet, I am not worried about Alliances at all.

 

The main difference between me and you is that I have a small guild that anchors my WvW activity. So I'm completely happy to just stay with them, even they're not the focus of most of my playtime.

 

I'm betting you have something like that. Might be a normal guild that you like to hang out with that doesn't obsess over "raid schedules." Might just be a "personal guild" that's turned into 5-10 people chatting together and sharing control of claim buffs and upgrades.

 

You don't need a huge meta-guild of everyone who used to be on your server. You just need that little group.

 

Maybe you just don't know you have it yet.

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I don't think 'solo players' will have much change in their experience honestly.

You may have to open your horizons and jump in with a few new commanders after each 'season', but really, is that much different than the current world-linking system?

There will still be camps and towers to cap and scout, and still fellow solo players. 

 

Maybe those familiar commanders you run with don't want to be in the same stale server with the same stubborn pugs and mapchat trolls. 

 

Personally I am encouraging all of those dedicated scouts/roamers out there to make little guilds now. Whether you rep them doesn't matter. But people need to take initiative if they want to preserve any sense of community that they want to keep. Inaction is no excuse. 

 

Alliances like mine will need some of those scout guilds.

 

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8 hours ago, Counterakt.9106 said:

1. Despite my 4k+ hours on wvw, I am a casual, I don't run with guilds because I would like to go afk at any point and can't commit to playing fixed times.

2. We are not loyal to a guild, we are loyal to the server. Thick or thin we stick to the server.

3. To answer the inevitable, just form a community guild for your server and play comment, I like to play with different guilds. run with different commanders.

I broke down your post into your 3 points of importance. I think that clearly outlines what these issues are and where you are honest or not.

1. There are guilds that lets you go afk at any point and have no fixed schedules. Those exist now, they will exist later.

2. World, Server, Shard, Alliance and Guild are just names for things. You are arguing semantics and abstractions. It has little to no functional difference. This is why people tell you to create a guild, name it after your server and invite those likeminded people. If they do not want to be apart of your community they shouldn't have to be.

3. I think this is where you are beginning to show your true colors. You want the fruits of their labour while not taking part in the labour. That is incredibly selfish. You may want them but they may not want you and their only recourse under the current system is to pay Anet to get away from you. Alliances give them alternatives to that and what you are saying suggests that it is why you are complaining here. Do us all a favour and try to find friends who wants to play with you, play like you and stop trying to demand of others.

Case in point:

There is no issue for people who are old, casual, wants to afk or have no scheduling to find likeminded players - the issue appears when those players demand the content made by players who are not casual, does not go afk and have scheduling - because that content feels superior or more successful to them.

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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17 minutes ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

I broke down your post into your 3 points of importance. I think that clearly outlines what these issues are and where you are honest or not.

1. There are guilds that lets you go afk at any point and have no fixed schedules. Those exist now, they will exist later.

2. World, Server, Shard, Alliance and Guild are just names for things. You are arguing semantics and abstractions. It has little to no functional difference. This is why people tell you to create a guild, name it after your server and invite those likeminded people. If they do not want to be apart of your community they shouldn't have to be.

3. I think this is where you are beginning to show your true colors. You want the fruits of their labour while not taking part in the labour. That is incredibly selfish. You may want them but they may not want you and their only recourse under the current system is to pay Anet to get away from you. Alliances give them alternatives to that and what you are saying suggests that it is why you are complaining here. Do us all a favour and try to find friends who wants to play with you, like you and stop trying to hold others hostage.

There is no issue for people who are old, casual, wants to afk or have no scheduling to find likeminded players - the issue appears when those players demand the content made by players who are not casual, does not go afk and have scheduling because that content feels superior or more successful to them.

1) The guilds that let you do that are usually rally bots, no offence. 

2) Like I said, there is going to be a lot of conflicts, people want to play with their hardcore raid guild also want to just pug around with a few people that you can trust not to get one pushed. They will have to make a choice now. Some of us have more realm royalty than guild loyalty. I might as well come out and say, I am from Maguuma, the only pug server left in the game. I omitted that in my original post because I know this thread will get derailed.

3) I don't know how things work outside of Mag. But I play more hours than the typical guild based player who logs in for two hours for raid and get done. In fact, it is the other way around, pugs like me are the ones who keep content going during off hours, defend home so guilds can login at their rally time and have their little romp.

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5 minutes ago, Counterakt.9106 said:

1) The guilds that let you do that are usually rally bots, no offence. 

2) Like I said, there is going to be a lot of conflicts, people want to play with their hardcore raid guild also want to just pug around with a few people that you can trust not to get one pushed. They will have to make a choice now. Some of us have more realm royalty than guild loyalty. I might as well come out and say, I am from Maguuma, the only pug server left in the game. I omitted that in my original post because I know this thread will get derailed.

3) I don't know how things work outside of Mag. But I play more hours than the typical guild based player who logs in for two hours for raid and get done. In fact, it is the other way around, pugs like me are the ones who keep content going during off hours, defend home so guilds can login at their rally time and have their little romp.

Friend, it changes nothing.

 

You can take 500 of your friends on Maguuma that wants to. You can put them in a guild and call it Maguuma. You can not take those who do not want to be Maguuma. It's easy.

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29 minutes ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

Friend, it changes nothing.

 

You can take 500 of your friends on Maguuma that wants to. You can put them in a guild and call it Maguuma. You can not take those who do not want to be Maguuma. It's easy.

Well, We do have one, but we have a lot of, well, colorful personalities to put it mildly I don't see it lasting any longer than any of the elite guilds that people put together over the years.

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21 minutes ago, Counterakt.9106 said:

Back to my original point, what is wrong with leaving the pugs alone in their own servers. Guilds were the only ones who always complained about server transfers. Just keep balancing guilds, leave the pugs alone.

You cant "balance guilds" without breaking apart worlds first. The guilds - or alliances - are the larger foundation chunks for worlds, not the random pugs. Everyone has to vacate before the worlds can reform. Face facts, accept reality and prepare to adjust using the tools that will be given by Anet to create a new home.

But otherwise, yeah I dont see anything wrong with leaving the kid in the house when it's about to be fumigated either. Acceptable losses I guess.

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16 minutes ago, displayname.8315 said:

Lots are already repping the magswag tag.  Maybe people just don't want to be part of [YAKS] [AR] [NSP]... there's been quite a few server themed guilds.

But, like,

1. Based on everything we've seen the devs say so far, they don't have to rep the guild or interact with it in any but the most trivial ways to use it as their WvW anchor guild.

2. Perhaps people who don't want to be in a "server guild" don't actually want to be eternally grouped up with their server? Then there's no problem.

Edited by ASP.8093
Clarifying. Sigh.
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Just now, ASP.8093 said:

But, like,

1. Based on everything we've seen the devs say so far, they don't have to rep the guild or interact with it in any but the most trivial ways to use it as their WvW anchor guild.

2. Perhaps people who don't want to be in a "server guild" don't actually want to be eternally grouped up with their server?

Check a different box then?

The thing I find fascinating about all this round-a-bout discussion is that no one is actually bringing up the actual concern. If servers are turned into guilds that means there has to be a guild leader. That means someone has the power to say 'no I don't like you, begone' or something similiar. Where as before that leader was Big Boss anet and you had to do something major to be removed from the 'community' (Read: Game).

For people who struggle to get along with others I can see this being a valid concern. People are no longer required to put up with them. Even so I feel like the guilds system as it stands results in a very... divine monarchist system and that perhaps some people would rather live under some sort of council or democracy where one person having a bad day can't sway an entire community.

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5 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

Check a different box then?

The thing I find fascinating about all this round-a-bout discussion is that no one is actually bringing up the actual concern. If servers are turned into guilds that means there has to be a guild leader. That means someone has the power to say 'no I don't like you, begone' or something similiar. Where as before that leader was Big Boss anet and you had to do something major to be removed from the 'community' (Read: Game).

For people who struggle to get along with others I can see this being a valid concern. People are no longer required to put up with them. Even so I feel like the guilds system as it stands results in a very... divine monarchist system and that perhaps some people would rather live under some sort of council or democracy where one person having a bad day can't sway an entire community.

Not at all, though.

 

From how it's described right now…

 

Alliances are voluntary groupins of players. Up to 500.

 

The game will algorithmically create teams out of several of those alliances, plus unaligned active players, and relink them every few months.

 

If someone doesn't want you in their alliance then you won't automatically be on their team every single relink. It just becomes up to the matchmaking system. That's it.

Edited by ASP.8093
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29 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

You cant "balance guilds" without breaking apart worlds first. The guilds - or alliances - are the larger foundation chunks for worlds, not the random pugs. Everyone has to vacate before the worlds can reform. Face facts, accept reality and prepare to adjust using the tools that will be given by Anet to create a new home.

But otherwise, yeah I dont see anything wrong with leaving the kid in the house when it's about to be fumigated either. Acceptable losses I guess.

 If worlds are not balanced how can you ensure alliances are balanced. Everyone is going to try and stack alliances. In fact, worlds are more democratic. A group of people can't say who gets in vs who stays out. But with alliances good players are going to stack and there is nothing anet can do about that.

 

The theme I am hearing is Guilds/Alliances just replace servers as if it is just natural. There is a huge difference between guilds/alliances and Servers. You don't have to appease anyone to get into a server. with alliances you are giving a few people power over entire alliance. You don't honestly think that is going to end well, do you? I can guarantee a ton of drama and toxicity from that. That is not good for the wvw community. All the server discords I am in, I can already see people getting left behind due to lack of space. This is going to affect new players who haven't fully established themselves a lot more than veteran players who can easily adapt, because no good alliances will take them and they will never get good because they don't get to play with good alliances. This is a vicious cycle.

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