Engineer's flawed design. And how to fix it.

[draxynnic.3719]

22 hours ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Why it is so? Because Engi utility skills with their toolbelt skills combined should have similar power level as other classes utilities alone, but at the same time they should compete with Kits, which are weaker versions of weapons, because they could not be balanced as real weapons, because Engineers have freedom to pick as many of them as they want and switch between them without CD. And because of that we don't have a second weapon.

I think this is where your argument falls down.

 

Engineer utility skills are, in fact, not balanced to have similar power level as other classes utilities. They're generally quite a bit stronger. Take Personal Battering Ram, for instance. Launch with two charges, a quarter second activation time, and 25s charge refresh, which shortens to 20s with a trait. Compare this to, say, Kick, and it seems pretty good to me if you want that extra CC, even before the toolbelt, while it's one of the weaker options for engineer to fill a utility slot with. 

 

That's the real trade engineer makes for losing their weaponswap: they get stronger utilities than most professions do in return. One of the ways their utilities can be stronger is in the form of being kits, but if you get regular utilities instead, they're supposed to be a bit better than those of other professions, plus you get the toolkit skill as well.

[Stalima.5490]

One of the things I would want reworked is toss elixirs because those skills are so unsatisfying to use, maybe they should simply change toss elixirs into toxic elixirs to add negative effects to enemies Like they could just act as boon corrupted versions of the normal elixirs, throwing corrupted boons at enemies would be slightly amusing with a bit of traiting to allow for poison stacks etc so elixir traitline would become a boon/poison focused traitline rather than just 100% boons.

 

They would likely have to bump up turrets to be a bit stronger for area boons though.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Stalima.5490

[Bomboed.5697]

5 hours ago, Ghos.1326 said:

we're all missing something crucial: kits are not the engineer's mechanic, the toolbelt is.

Why it is so? Why we are all missing this?
Because Kits feel more important, more impactful and more crucial for engineer gameplay. The choice of Kit has much bigger impact on creating a build than a choice of toolbelt skill. The only exception was old Static Discharge build, which always was niche thing. Also Kits are a reason why we don't have weapon swap, not toolbelt.
Maybe toolbelt was intended to be our profession mechanic by ANET initial idea, but in reality Kits are bigger part of Engineer class identity, while toolbelt as a mechanic feels more like a side compensation for need to put Kits into utility slots.
This is one of the reasons why it would be better if Kits would become a real profession mechanic and being balanced as such, not as a competitors for utility slot.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Bomboed.5697

[Bomboed.5697]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Engineer utility skills are, in fact, not balanced to have similar power level as other classes utilities. They're generally quite a bit stronger. Take Personal Battering Ram, for instance. Launch with two charges, a quarter second activation time, and 25s charge refresh, which shortens to 20s with a trait. Compare this to, say, Kick, and it seems pretty good to me if you want that extra CC, even before the toolbelt, while it's one of the weaker options for engineer to fill a utility slot with. 

And still no one uses it. Not a single build includes it. How strange.

[Ghos.1326]

32 minutes ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Why it is so? Why we are all missing this?
Because Kits feel more important, more impactful and more crucial for engineer gameplay. The choice of Kit has much bigger impact on creating a build than a choice of toolbelt skill. The only exception was old Static Discharge build, which always was niche thing. Also Kits are a reason why we don't have weapon swap, not toolbelt.
Maybe toolbelt was intended to be our profession mechanic by ANET initial idea, but in reality Kits are bigger part of Engineer class identity, while toolbelt as a mechanic feels more like a side compensation for need to put Kits into utility slots.
This is one of the reasons why it would be better if Kits would become a real profession mechanic and being balanced as such, not as a competitors for utility slot.

Might feel more impactful but the reality is the toolbelt is still the official Engineer profession mechanic.

[MrForz.1953]

29 minutes ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

And still no one uses it. Not a single build includes it. How strange.

There's nothing strange there, it just serves a function that barely anyone cares about beyond very specific objectives, it being stronger is irrelevant. Do you use Kick on Warrior on a daily basis?

Edited September 13, 2021 by MrForz.1953

[Bomboed.5697]

2 hours ago, Ghos.1326 said:

Might feel more impactful but the reality is the toolbelt is still the official Engineer profession mechanic.

But what is more important, being official, or being more fun and impactful for players.
For example, Pet is the official Ranger profession mechanic. But a lot, if not majority, of Ranger players hate Pet as a mechanic and they a glad to play Soulbeast because it gives them an efficient way to get rid of pet.

 

 

2 hours ago, MrForz.1953 said:

There's nothing strange there, it just serves a function that barely anyone cares about beyond very specific objectives, it being stronger is irrelevant. Do you use Kick on Warrior on a daily basis?

It just means that your example is irrelevant and proves nothing. There is not difference if one engi trash ability is slightly better than another trash ability from other class only because it has better CD and charges.
While a lot of other Engi utilities are not better than utilities of other classes. Most gadgets are trash, all turrets are trash (except healing one).

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

And still no one uses it. Not a single build includes it. How strange.

It's almost like it was my entire point that a utility skill that would be awesome on some other profession goes unused on engineer because engineer has utility options that are even better. Strange indeed.

[MrForz.1953]

3 hours ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Tt just means that your example is irrelevant and proves nothing. There is not difference if one engi trash ability is slightly better than another trash ability from other class only because it has better CD and charges.
While a lot of other Engi utilities are not better than utilities of other classes. Most gadgets are trash, all turrets are trash (except healing one).

 

But this just calls for simple buffs, and the turrets are a terrible example because most of them don't even scale with the player, they're neglected, not overshadowed. I really fail to see what's your core issue with Engineer. You just want to use turrets and gadgets?

Edited September 14, 2021 by MrForz.1953

[Obtena.7952]

This proposal is based on a flawed premise ... yes, kits take up a utility slot , but somehow the OP forgot they GIVE you access to 5 more abilities. 

But hey, if that's too much of a 'drawback' ... you don't need to use them. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Bomboed.5697]

10 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

because engineer has utility options that are even better

Yes. They are called Kits.
 

 

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

This proposal is based on a flawed premise

The premise if different. The premise is that Kits are basically Engi alternative of weapon swap, but they also generally worse than real weapons. And at the same time they usually better than other utility abilities.
The point is not about kits being bad in general, but about other utilities being bad, because they compete with Kits for slot.
Core Engi has only 4 types of utilities. One of them are Kits, which are crucial for majority of builds. Two of them (Gadgets and Turrets) are almost never used at all.

[Dakiaris.2798]

Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing the engineer getting a core rework and have kits function as class unique weapons instead. Make it so that you can have 1 major weapon kit equip and 1 utility that you can freely switch between.

 

core

Flame thrower, grenade, tool

Utility

Bomb, elixir, healing kit

 

Up the core kits power to be as good as primary weapons while the utility stay as they are and for the most part leave the utility as they are since they are mainly used for fields and condi cleanse and whatnot.

 

Flame thrower would be condi, grenade hybrid and tool power focused.

 

move the toolbelt skills to be utility skills instead and buff the no.1 on rifle/pistol a little so that the kits and them have roughly the same power. Skill wise it's all about tweaking what happens when on them.

 

 

I 100% do not expect anything that drastic to happen to them as it honestly feels like a.net has no idea what to do with engineer at this point and they really don't care to redo core since the money comes from people buying the expansions.

[Bomboed.5697]

24 minutes ago, Dakiaris.2798 said:

Make it so that you can have 1 major weapon kit equip and 1 utility that you can freely switch between.

I think, if we stick to 2 slots for Kits, it would be better to let the players to freely fill them with Kits they want.
Yes, Kits could be categorized as damage or support oriented, but if player wants to build an ultimate support Engineer - player should have an option to pick 2 support Kits. If player wants to be a pure glass-cannon DPS - player should be able to take 2 damage kits. If player needs both damage and utility, for SPvP for example, there should be a way to pick damage oriented Kit and utility one like Elixir Gun, for example.

The whole point of my suggestion is to save and embrace ability to combine different Kits for different ways to play the class. I just think it would be better to separate choice of Kits from choice of utilities. Yes, this change requires sacrifice of toolbelt skills, but it will not matter if power and/or functionality of toolbelt skills will be integrated into utility skills themselves.
Even current "piano" playstyle could be saved in this new design.

[Dakiaris.2798]

1 minute ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

I think, if we stick to 2 slots for Kits, it would be better to let the players to freely fill them with Kits they want.
Yes, Kits could be categorized as damage or support oriented, but if player wants to build an ultimate support Engineer - player should have an option to pick 2 support Kits. If player wants to be a pure glass-cannon DPS - player should be able to take 2 damage kits. If player needs both damage and utility, for SPvP for example, there should be a way to pick damage oriented Kit and utility one like Elixir Gun, for example.

The whole point of my suggestion is to save and embrace ability to combine different Kits for different ways to play the class. I just think it would be better to separate choice of Kits from choice of utilities. Yes, this change requires sacrifice of toolbelt skills, but it will not matter if power and/or functionality of toolbelt skills will be integrated into utility skills themselves.
Even current "piano" playstyle could be saved in this new design.

 

 

Honestly I don't care what they do I just want the piano style we currently have to be optional. I wanna be able to pull decent dps without having to watch my bars and spam the hell out of my keys... Let me focus on mechanics and dodging and actually playing the game... If I wanted a piano play style I would be in other mmos.

 

That and I just want kits to actually function as alternate weapons for engineer since the core setup has so few weapons and originally the devs said they wanted them to be like the engineers weapons... Then they kept changing them and now they boil down to 2-3-5 and toolbelt skills then over to the next kit.

[Bomboed.5697]

5 minutes ago, Dakiaris.2798 said:

Honestly I don't care what they do I just want the piano style we currently have to be optional. I wanna be able to pull decent dps without having to watch my bars and spam the hell out of my keys...

Some would say: "Just play different class".
I will say thay you are right.
It is okay to love piano spam playstyle. But if this is the mandatory playstyle, it  just narrows down how much people will play the class, while the class itself, in terms of theme and fantasy, has much broader appeal.
It is always better to have more options of playstyles.

[Dakiaris.2798]

1 minute ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Some would say: "Just play different class".
I will say thay you are right.
It is okay to love piano spam playstyle. But if this is the mandatory playstyle, it  just narrows down how much people will play the class, while the class itself, in terms of theme and fantasy, has much broader appeal.
It is always better to have more options of playstyles.

 

Yea there's a reason why the popularity of the engineer is on par with the rev. Having to play the piano just to keep up with other classes that have less key strokes just kills it for the large majority. Having high apm is one thing but on the engineer and ele it's just honestly dumb that it's the only option... Scrapper is so close to being what I want but the damage it pulls is just so weak in comparison to holo that I can't bring myself to play it these days as people don't want me in group unless I'm holo or support.

 

Honestly been playing my ranger more and more just because I can at least do more dps with less key presses than the engineer which allows me to generally enjoy the game more.

[Yasai.3549]

Honestly much rather Engi functioned more like : 

Toolbelt 
F1 F2 F3 F4 F5(Toolkits) 

Press F5 > 1 2 3 4 5 for different kits
If kit is currently equipped > F5 again to pull out kit selection again or Weapon swap to unequip kit

Scrappers and Holos right now function so differently from Core Engi that they should just trade off Toolkits for their respective Espec mechanics. 

[Kodama.6453]

52 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Honestly much rather Engi functioned more like : 

Toolbelt 
F1 F2 F3 F4 F5(Toolkits) 

Press F5 > 1 2 3 4 5 for different kits
If kit is currently equipped > F5 again to pull out kit selection again or Weapon swap to unequip kit

Scrappers and Holos right now function so differently from Core Engi that they should just trade off Toolkits for their respective Espec mechanics. 

Scrapper without kits basically just has 2 different weapon sets, rifle and hammer, since the spec is extremely power damage focused.

That is limiting build variety way too much, no way that this happens. Also, how is function gyro as an elite spec mechanic even remotely in the same ball park as having access to 5 different weapon kits?

Edited September 14, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Yasai.3549]

49 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Scrapper without kits basically just has 2 different weapon sets, rifle and hammer, since the spec is extremely power damage focused.

That is limiting build variety way too much, no way that this happens. Also, how is function gyro as an elite spec mechanic even remotely in the same ball park as having access to 5 different weapon kits?

Simple : 
Make Gyro F5 into Gyro kit and you can summon all your Gyros from one loadout. 
That way you can slot more utilties, play with Gyro summons and have a main weapon

If an Espec is unable to function with their mechanic replaced, then it's an Espec's design flaw. 

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Yasai.3549

[Random Wax Orc.7695]

Anet could also add a new Core class mechanic to Engineer.  Engineer exclusive Scripts, because Science!  Engineers are more likely to create a player piano than to simply play a piano.  😁

 

I like the idea of being able to access all kits or all gyros without using valuable utility skill slots.

[Kodama.6453]

21 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Simple : 
Make Gyro F5 into Gyro kit and you can summon all your Gyros from one loadout. 
That way you can slot more utilties, play with Gyro summons and have a main weapon

If an Espec is unable to function with their mechanic replaced, then it's an Espec's design flaw. 

 

Wait, what are the new utility skill type supposed to be then? Or are you seriously suggesting that the scrapper elite spec mechanic.... is just summoning exact copies of the skills they already get as utilities?

[Yasai.3549]

2 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Wait, what are the new utility skill type supposed to be then? Or are you seriously suggesting that the scrapper elite spec mechanic.... is just summoning exact copies of the skills they already get as utilities?

Make a new set then.
Let's be real, Scrapper was never a proper Espec. 

When it was first introduced, all it was was literally Engineer + remote F button. 
Gyros were more hindrance than useful and Hammer was poor on its own. 

[Bomboed.5697]

On 9/14/2021 at 5:02 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

Honestly much rather Engi functioned more like : 

Toolbelt 
F1 F2 F3 F4 F5(Toolkits) 

Press F5 > 1 2 3 4 5 for different kits
If kit is currently equipped > F5 again to pull out kit selection again or Weapon swap to unequip kit

Scrappers and Holos right now function so differently from Core Engi that they should just trade off Toolkits for their respective Espec mechanics. 

4 Kits for Core and zero Kits for Elite spec - it sounds like a huge tradeoff.

I would rather have ALL engineers to be able to have 2 Kits on F1 and F2 and 3 free to choose utility slots, while Elite specs have their mechanic on F3, while Core Engi have some kind of Kit Overload on F3. Maybe current toolbelt skills from kits, like grenade barrage, could be reworked into those Overloads.
That would create a reason to play Core specs.

[Kodra.7860]

You know what’s really fun player fantasy as an engineer? Tinkering! And what better thing to do than tinker with your builds?

 

Except, in PvE tinkering with your utilities mostly doesn’t happen. You are bring bomb and grenade kit, and probably flamethrower as well. Why? Because kits are overpowered and getting greatly expanded the number of medium to long cool downs is the correct way to play.

 

This level of power greatly limits the PvE options for a DPS engie.

 

I rolled engie and have stuck with this miserable class design because I love the player fantasy but the mechanics make me feel more like a pianist than a tinkerer.  I think a lot of the suggestions from the OP make sense, but broadly support reducing the viability of “all kits” builds to open up new design space for the engineer

[Jtoon.6907]

The problem with engineer I find is there are some good utility skills and some good tool belt skills. Too bad these skills couldn’t be combined to make the class less of a mess and I could see this class as my main instead of just a class I use to fill a whole in my wvw group.