So GW2 is casual friendly?

[battledrone.8315]

2 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

They didn't nerf it no, not directly anyway.

The problem is powercreep, newer improvements to the game such as Elite Specs, new stat combos, sigils and runes and the upgrades made to various traits.. even the entire trait system which has been reworked multiple times since the vanilla Gw2 was released have all contributed to the older content becoming less challenging, even on new characters.

I think there have been times when devs have gone back and balanced the vanilla maps a little but I think most would agree that it hasn't been enough and there is still to this day a significant gap between the core maps and HoT.

Honestly the only area of the core world that really bothers me is Orr.
By the time you are pushing into Orr the game should be testing that you know how to play it, it's the original endgame PvE content after all.
There are still players in the game today that get to HoT and don't know how to use some basic mechanics like dodging, combo fields and CC's.. that's partly why they have so much trouble in HoT where Dodging especially becomes a key survival mechanic you need to use often.

The only time you ever actually need to dodge in the core world is during that little tutorial puzzle to get the chest, which is right in the starting maps.
There's nothing else around that will ever actually push you to use the dodge mechanic since you can just tank most enemies and dps them down, even on glass stats and most players won't attempt to solo strong creatures like champs which would require them to learn how to dodge.

It's very very easy to fall into the stack and smack routine as well in Gw2 and just let yourself get hit because others will revive you or heal you or you'll have people spamming out boons and barrier etc
I blame that in part for when you then get people claiming the actual story content missions are too hard and need nerfing down.

i remember orr back when it was challenging, you would see players getting hammered all over the place.

the spawn rate was much faster, and the mob density was higher too.

you can bet, that they didnt do all that extra work for fun, the decision was made on top level after they saw the numbers.

and if dodging was fun, people would had used it more on their own accord. what does that tell you?

its just another system, that didnt catch on. just like breakbars. forcing players to do it more wont go well.

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, battledrone.8315 said:

i remember orr back when it was challenging, you would see players getting hammered all over the place.

the spawn rate was much faster, and the mob density was higher too.

you can bet, that they didnt do all that extra work for fun, the decision was made on top level after they saw the numbers.

and if dodging was fun, people would had used it more on their own accord. what does that tell you?

its just another system, that didnt catch on. just like breakbars. forcing players to do it more wont go well.

Dodging didn't catch on?  Okay...

[ASP.8093]

5 hours ago, battledrone.8315 said:

and if dodging was fun, people would had used it more on their own accord. what does that tell you?

its just another system, that didnt catch on. just like breakbars. forcing players to do it more wont go well.

I've come to the conclusion that you park all your characters in a cave in a starter area, log in every day to kill a few bears, and then log out again.

[Teratus.2859]

5 hours ago, battledrone.8315 said:

i remember orr back when it was challenging, you would see players getting hammered all over the place.

the spawn rate was much faster, and the mob density was higher too.

you can bet, that they didnt do all that extra work for fun, the decision was made on top level after they saw the numbers.

and if dodging was fun, people would had used it more on their own accord. what does that tell you?

its just another system, that didnt catch on. just like breakbars. forcing players to do it more wont go well.

May have been nerfed down a bit in the past, I can't recall much from that far back but overtime the powercreep will have made such nerfs irrelevant if not harmful.

If there were faster spawn rates and mob density in Orr now, it probably wouldn't have that big an impact on most players.
If anything it was probably loot that mainly caused any nerfs to mob density, I do remember Orr used to have some popular high scaling event trains back in the day and there used to be tons of mobs in them.
Can't remember how good the loot was though but if something is too profitable Anet does tend to nuke it after a while.

Dodging is an essential mechanic in Gw2, that's the whole problem when people avoid it and get stuck later when content "gets too hard" for them and they can't faceroll enemies anymore with some dps build they found on metabattle and don't really know how to use properly.

It's easy to blame players for not learning how to dodge but the reality is that it's a failure of the game for being to easy that it allows them to get so far into the game without needing to use and familiarise themselves with this essential mechanic so instead it becomes too routine, to much of a habit to not use it.

[Obtena.7952]

On 9/26/2021 at 9:01 AM, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Lot of the CC from enemies can be avoided simply by strafing and/or understanding the encounter. Bosses, for example, often have a set of behavior patterns (knockup always followed by kick, for example).

Looking back here ... 

What you are saying is actually part of the problem for a 'casual' focused game. If  CC isn't a significant part of what a casual player will encounter in a game, then they will NEVER strafe or understand that encounter enough to know what to do. Even as an experienced gamer ... if I hardly encounter a mob I need to CC, even if I'm aware of CC and barbreaking, I'm unlikely to include it as a feature of my build.

A massive part of the appeal for a casual player is consistent engagements and mechanics. A massive barrier for a casual player is an encounter that has a mechanic they RARELY see.

This is why HOT was a disaster for many people ... What is this jumping smokescale that I can't kill? Where have I EVER seen the mechanics that govern its behaviour ... before or SINCE? 

Dodge, etc ... all fall into this. If this game had no healing and was all about dodge to avoid hits, even the most casual player would be dodging all the time. The fact is that mechanics that need to be dodged is not written into the DNA of the core, low level game. There is a lame tutorial in newbie maps ... and you almost never use it again until level 80. Same with barbreaks. 

Anet most certainly overestimated the willingness of their playerbase to 'step up' their game when they released HoT. They most certainly paid and continue to pay for that mistake as well. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[voltaicbore.8012]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Anet most certainly overestimated the willingness of their playerbase to 'step up' their game when they released HoT. They most certainly paid and continue to pay for that mistake as well. 

This is one of the truest things I believe I've seen written on the forums.

Of all the content in the game, I actually think revisiting dungeons is a potential solution to the instruction and "failure to step up" issues that continue to complicate ANet's design decisions. Specifically, if ANet decided to implement special drop rates for mob kills when soloing or duoing a dungeon, I think that might draw more people in to the unique challenges dungeons provide. I think boosting rewards on kills would prevent the portal and stealth classes from an unfair advantage in just cheesing past fights to get a quick clear. Those trash fights are where I think a lot of combat lessons can be learned.

If you've ever soloed even a story dungeon, you might notice that groups of elite mobs (and large enough groups of normal mobs) make very good mixed teams, starting right with Ascalonian Catacombs. Warriors with hard cc and huge self heal that is good to interrupt, mesmers with constant daze and reflect, elementalists with excellent burn damage, monks that combine kickbacks with group heals, etc - these mixed teams that ANet set up can easily overwhelm even a veteran player if said veteran decides to get sloppy. On the other hand, a veteran on top of their game can solo these mixed teams even on a glassier build. I think this range of outcomes shows just how well designed the combat can be... but not in full groups. Dungeon mobs simply haven't kept up with the powercreep available to a full group of 5 level 80s, and as a group dungeons are the epitome of stack-and-smack content. There is also the problem of a number of explorable paths requiring a minimum number of players, like a bare minimum of 3 to do lasers in CoE and 4 to do the braziers in CoF p1. ANet would either have to include workarounds to those phases, or players would just have to ignore those paths when it comes to the boosted rewards.

AC story and explorable alone can teach a solo player a huge variety of lessons. Making sure terrain doesn't interfere with ground targeted abilities, kiting groups around obstacles, dodging key attacks (and saving your weapon abilities with an evade frame for the right times), dealing with all manner of conditions (AC will show you burn, bleed, confusion, poison, cripple, fear, and immob in high volumes), and the choice of running a sustainable build that still has enough killing power vs. running full glass with the required skill level to murder your way to safety.

Fractals, in contrast, have a much more puzzle-y feel to them. The trash mob combinations just don't seem as potent as what we see in dungeons, and success feels more about having appropriate boss dps, knowing the mechanics of said bosses' set piece fights, and solving the puzzles between bosses. That's why I would prefer lowmanning dungeons as a teaching tool over fractals.

[battledrone.8315]

14 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Dodging didn't catch on?  Okay...

core game was sold over 6 mio times. how many of them are still in tyria, and dodging?

even if you are VERY generous, and assume they have 2 mio players left, thats only about 1/3

that is NOT a majority

[battledrone.8315]

12 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

I've come to the conclusion that you park all your characters in a cave in a starter area, log in every day to kill a few bears, and then log out again.

nope, i have a ton of toons parked at the entrance to orr. that is where the game simply gets too annoying.

the game isnt even installed now

[battledrone.8315]

12 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

May have been nerfed down a bit in the past, I can't recall much from that far back but overtime the powercreep will have made such nerfs irrelevant if not harmful.

If there were faster spawn rates and mob density in Orr now, it probably wouldn't have that big an impact on most players.
If anything it was probably loot that mainly caused any nerfs to mob density, I do remember Orr used to have some popular high scaling event trains back in the day and there used to be tons of mobs in them.
Can't remember how good the loot was though but if something is too profitable Anet does tend to nuke it after a while.

Dodging is an essential mechanic in Gw2, that's the whole problem when people avoid it and get stuck later when content "gets too hard" for them and they can't faceroll enemies anymore with some dps build they found on metabattle and don't really know how to use properly.

It's easy to blame players for not learning how to dodge but the reality is that it's a failure of the game for being to easy that it allows them to get so far into the game without needing to use and familiarise themselves with this essential mechanic so instead it becomes too routine, to much of a habit to not use it.

they had to remove many mechanics from the newbie zones, because players kept dying to moas.

every time you ramp up difficulty, the game loses players. 

josh strife hayes has made a great video on the subject too

he knows more about mmos, than ANY other living person

[battledrone.8315]

2 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

This is one of the truest things I believe I've seen written on the forums.

Of all the content in the game, I actually think revisiting dungeons is a potential solution to the instruction and "failure to step up" issues that continue to complicate ANet's design decisions. Specifically, if ANet decided to implement special drop rates for mob kills when soloing or duoing a dungeon, I think that might draw more people in to the unique challenges dungeons provide. I think boosting rewards on kills would prevent the portal and stealth classes from an unfair advantage in just cheesing past fights to get a quick clear. Those trash fights are where I think a lot of combat lessons can be learned.

If you've ever soloed even a story dungeon, you might notice that groups of elite mobs (and large enough groups of normal mobs) make very good mixed teams, starting right with Ascalonian Catacombs. Warriors with hard cc and huge self heal that is good to interrupt, mesmers with constant daze and reflect, elementalists with excellent burn damage, monks that combine kickbacks with group heals, etc - these mixed teams that ANet set up can easily overwhelm even a veteran player if said veteran decides to get sloppy. On the other hand, a veteran on top of their game can solo these mixed teams even on a glassier build. I think this range of outcomes shows just how well designed the combat can be... but not in full groups. Dungeon mobs simply haven't kept up with the powercreep available to a full group of 5 level 80s, and as a group dungeons are the epitome of stack-and-smack content. There is also the problem of a number of explorable paths requiring a minimum number of players, like a bare minimum of 3 to do lasers in CoE and 4 to do the braziers in CoF p1. ANet would either have to include workarounds to those phases, or players would just have to ignore those paths when it comes to the boosted rewards.

AC story and explorable alone can teach a solo player a huge variety of lessons. Making sure terrain doesn't interfere with ground targeted abilities, kiting groups around obstacles, dodging key attacks (and saving your weapon abilities with an evade frame for the right times), dealing with all manner of conditions (AC will show you burn, bleed, confusion, poison, cripple, fear, and immob in high volumes), and the choice of running a sustainable build that still has enough killing power vs. running full glass with the required skill level to murder your way to safety.

Fractals, in contrast, have a much more puzzle-y feel to them. The trash mob combinations just don't seem as potent as what we see in dungeons, and success feels more about having appropriate boss dps, knowing the mechanics of said bosses' set piece fights, and solving the puzzles between bosses. That's why I would prefer lowmanning dungeons as a teaching tool over fractals.

you do realize, that AC is a buggy mess?  show that to a casual, and they prolly uninstall the game, before you finish the dungeon

[battledrone.8315]

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Looking back here ... 

What you are saying is actually part of the problem for a 'casual' focused game. If  CC isn't a significant part of what a casual player will encounter in a game, then they will NEVER strafe or understand that encounter enough to know what to do. Even as an experienced gamer ... if I hardly encounter a mob I need to CC, even if I'm aware of CC and barbreaking, I'm unlikely to include it as a feature of my build.

A massive part of the appeal for a casual player is consistent engagements and mechanics. A massive barrier for a casual player is an encounter that has a mechanic they RARELY see.

This is why HOT was a disaster for many people ... What is this jumping smokescale that I can't kill? Where have I EVER seen the mechanics that govern its behaviour ... before or SINCE? 

Dodge, etc ... all fall into this. If this game had no healing and was all about dodge to avoid hits, even the most casual player would be dodging all the time. The fact is that mechanics that need to be dodged is not written into the DNA of the core, low level game. There is a lame tutorial in newbie maps ... and you almost never use it again until level 80. Same with barbreaks. 

Anet most certainly overestimated the willingness of their playerbase to 'step up' their game when they released HoT. They most certainly paid and continue to pay for that mistake as well. 

if there was no healing, it would be like a dark souls game, and they wouldnt have been able to sell it as casual

it would had been a much smaller game, because they wouldnt have the funding to make all the content

and wildstar showed us, that hardcore content is not sustainable without a big playerbase to pay the bills, while they work out the kinks. pretty much all the mmos make some bread&butter content to alleviate that problem

[ASP.8093]

1 hour ago, battledrone.8315 said:

nope, i have a ton of toons parked at the entrance to orr. that is where the game simply gets too annoying.

the game isnt even installed now

Ok. May I suggest finding a game you actually like enough to play sometimes and posting on that game's forums. It's way more fun, you know.

[Tukaram.8256]

GW2 is a very casual friendly game.  I play solo, PvM, extremely casually.  There is always something fun to do.  That being said - there are things I cannot (and should not be able to) do on my own. Some parts are not soloable, and some are just to grindy to get my attention.  I have no problem with that. This is one of the most casual friendly games I ever played. 😎

[battledrone.8315]

1 hour ago, ASP.8093 said:

Ok. May I suggest finding a game you actually like enough to play sometimes and posting on that game's forums. It's way more fun, you know.

fun is very subjective. last time i played was about a year ago, i liked the zone, but hated the story.

business as usual

[Astralporing.1957]

22 hours ago, battledrone.8315 said:

i remember orr back when it was challenging, you would see players getting hammered all over the place.

the spawn rate was much faster, and the mob density was higher too.

you can bet, that they didnt do all that extra work for fun, the decision was made on top level after they saw the numbers.

and if dodging was fun, people would had used it more on their own accord. what does that tell you?

its just another system, that didnt catch on. just like breakbars. forcing players to do it more wont go well.

Those initial high spawn rates were a result of a bug (or at least that's what we've been told) and not intended at all. Spawning bugs in general were actually not that rare in the early days of GW2, and it took them a while to fix all of them. Orr was just one of the three most (un)famous cases. The second one being the spawnrate of embers in the Fire Elemental world boss fight, and the third one being spiders in the last boss fight of  forward/up path of Twilight Arbor (and that spawn bug was the indirect cause for why we do not have that path in the game anymore).

[Teratus.2859]

8 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

This is one of the truest things I believe I've seen written on the forums.

Of all the content in the game, I actually think revisiting dungeons is a potential solution to the instruction and "failure to step up" issues that continue to complicate ANet's design decisions. Specifically, if ANet decided to implement special drop rates for mob kills when soloing or duoing a dungeon, I think that might draw more people in to the unique challenges dungeons provide. I think boosting rewards on kills would prevent the portal and stealth classes from an unfair advantage in just cheesing past fights to get a quick clear. Those trash fights are where I think a lot of combat lessons can be learned.

If you've ever soloed even a story dungeon, you might notice that groups of elite mobs (and large enough groups of normal mobs) make very good mixed teams, starting right with Ascalonian Catacombs. Warriors with hard cc and huge self heal that is good to interrupt, mesmers with constant daze and reflect, elementalists with excellent burn damage, monks that combine kickbacks with group heals, etc - these mixed teams that ANet set up can easily overwhelm even a veteran player if said veteran decides to get sloppy. On the other hand, a veteran on top of their game can solo these mixed teams even on a glassier build. I think this range of outcomes shows just how well designed the combat can be... but not in full groups. Dungeon mobs simply haven't kept up with the powercreep available to a full group of 5 level 80s, and as a group dungeons are the epitome of stack-and-smack content. There is also the problem of a number of explorable paths requiring a minimum number of players, like a bare minimum of 3 to do lasers in CoE and 4 to do the braziers in CoF p1. ANet would either have to include workarounds to those phases, or players would just have to ignore those paths when it comes to the boosted rewards.

AC story and explorable alone can teach a solo player a huge variety of lessons. Making sure terrain doesn't interfere with ground targeted abilities, kiting groups around obstacles, dodging key attacks (and saving your weapon abilities with an evade frame for the right times), dealing with all manner of conditions (AC will show you burn, bleed, confusion, poison, cripple, fear, and immob in high volumes), and the choice of running a sustainable build that still has enough killing power vs. running full glass with the required skill level to murder your way to safety.

Fractals, in contrast, have a much more puzzle-y feel to them. The trash mob combinations just don't seem as potent as what we see in dungeons, and success feels more about having appropriate boss dps, knowing the mechanics of said bosses' set piece fights, and solving the puzzles between bosses. That's why I would prefer lowmanning dungeons as a teaching tool over fractals.

Buffing up dungeon explorable paths and modifying the story paths into solo friendly content is something i've been behind for a very long time.

I agree that these would be good places to start making players need to use certain mechanics to survive.
Specially since they're spread out by level as well.
The solo story instances would be good practice for the harder explorable paths with the explorable paths being designed to really test you, being on par with say T3 fractals maybe.
Or they could just go the extra mile and add hard/challenge mode dungeons and buff the bosses upto around strike mission difficulty or something.

The only thing I don't agree with your post on is adding any kind of extra loot or improved drops rates for soloing stuff.
I enjoying soloing a lot but if they added something like this it would cause more harm than good imo.
You'd likely see a lot of angry players mouthing off at others because they "ruined their solo attempt" and cost them potentially good loot etc
It would go against the co-operative kind of game Gw2 was designed to be.
 

[Teratus.2859]

5 hours ago, battledrone.8315 said:

they had to remove many mechanics from the newbie zones, because players kept dying to moas.

every time you ramp up difficulty, the game loses players. 

josh strife hayes has made a great video on the subject too

he knows more about mmos, than ANY other living person

That the one where he talks about playing for fun vs playing for rewards and how different people prefer to spend their time in MMO's?
I like Josh he makes good videos so might have seen the one you're referring to, even if I can't remember it clearly atm.

I'm very much in the play for fun camp myself, which is why raiders don't like me 😛 jk XD

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, battledrone.8315 said:

if there was no healing, it would be like a dark souls game, and they wouldnt have been able to sell it as casual

OK maybe. Obviously you missed the whole point of my post. I'm not suggesting any changes here or what Anet should have done. I'm explaining what makes certain things in this game not-casual friendly. 

To stick to a specific. Dodging isn't actually hard and if done right, can be very casual friendly. The point I'm making here is that a casual player doesn't use things they have access to if they don't constantly need them, REGARDLESS of how hard they are. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Tukaram.8256]

4 hours ago, battledrone.8315 said:

fun is very subjective. last time i played was about a year ago, i liked the zone, but hated the story.

business as usual

GW has a story?  I never let the story get in the way of my fun. 😎

[battledrone.8315]

5 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

That the one where he talks about playing for fun vs playing for rewards and how different people prefer to spend their time in MMO's?
I like Josh he makes good videos so might have seen the one you're referring to, even if I can't remember it clearly atm.

I'm very much in the play for fun camp myself, which is why raiders don't like me 😛 jk XD

no its the one about the reasons for quitting a game. the 1st zone and the very first impressions are VERY important. 

 

[Teratus.2859]

8 minutes ago, battledrone.8315 said:

no its the one about the reasons for quitting a game. the 1st zone and the very first impressions are VERY important. 

 

Ahh right, I can't recall that one.. but I do agree with the first impressions thing.
That's actually a point i've brought up in the past as well when arguing for why the devs should back and improve old content, or at least not neglect it so much lol

From what we saw recently in the EoD stream Anet has actually tried to remedy this with new tutorial areas that actually teach players how to dodge and use CC's etc.

Personally I think it's a good idea that they've done this although I have to say that they really need to mimic these tutorials in the vanilla starter maps somewhere as well, or at least somewhere around the middle of the game.. perhaps around where order HQ's are or something.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[battledrone.8315]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK maybe. Obviously you missed the whole point of my post. I'm not suggesting any changes here or what Anet should have done. I'm explaining what makes certain things in this game not-casual friendly. 

To stick to a specific. Dodging isn't actually hard and if done right, can be very casual friendly. The point I'm making here is that a casual player doesn't use things they have access to if they don't constantly need them, REGARDLESS of how hard they are. 

efficiency/laziness  is common to most players, but hardcores are just much better at it.

how many harcores have skyscale, so they can avoid  most of the trash mobs?

when people see a loot chest, they go straight for it, they dont take the scenic route around the mountain

and i remember seeing a lot of hardcores in the champ trains too, when they were a thing

 

[battledrone.8315]

17 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Ahh right, I can't recall that one.. but I do agree with the first impressions thing.
That's actually a point i've brought up in the past as well when arguing for why the devs should back and improve old content, or at least not neglect it so much lol

From what we saw recently in the EoD stream Anet has actually tried to remedy this with new tutorial areas that actually teach players how to dodge and use CC's etc.

Personally I think it's a good idea that they've done this although I have to say that they really need to mimic these tutorials in the vanilla starter maps somewhere as well, or at least somewhere around the middle of the game.. perhaps around where order HQ's are or something.

tutorials wont help much, they need a build helper, just like EVE made.

if you try to  fit a shield repairer on a armor tank, it will actually warn you about the loss of efficiency.

and even that will only help a small % of the players, most people simply cant(wont) go through those insane boss battles

Edited October 12, 2021 by battledrone.8315

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, battledrone.8315 said:

efficiency/laziness  is common to most players, but hardcores are just much better at it.

how many harcores have skyscale, so they can avoid  most of the trash mobs?

when people see a loot chest, they go straight for it, they dont take the scenic route around the mountain

and i remember seeing a lot of hardcores in the champ trains too, when they were a thing

 

What does this have to do with the point I'm making? Dodging has nothing to do with being lazy or not. Again, for the casual player, it's about familiarity. I mean, maybe you define casual players are 'lazy' ... seems you got a axe to grind. 

Again, my point isn't an attack on casual players being 'lazy' or anything like that. My point is that casual-friendly games have mechanics that are made familiar to players thorough constant exposure. If you want to accuse people of being lazy, I most CERTAINLY don't see room for that in this thread.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

On 10/10/2021 at 11:31 PM, battledrone.8315 said:

orr was much harder back at launch, do you think they nerfed it without the numbers to motivate that change?

HoT will never be popular, it basically ruined the games chances of getting bigger

 

Properly designed games with an actual difficulty curve  say otherwise.  ANet wanted the difficulty spike without any of the work leading up to the spike.  Climbing up 1000ft of stairs is easier than climbing  a 1000ft of a sheer vertical wall and  ANEe added a pretty big wall without any of the build-up to said wall.

 

 

On 10/11/2021 at 1:50 AM, Teratus.2859 said:

They didn't nerf it no, not directly anyway.
 

They did though.  Orr used to have packs of risen everywhere.  Would  have made it a fantastic farming map these days but now it sits in irrelevancy as new farms have replaced  all of it. (Even Siren's Landing is better for farming Orr related  materials)