Inventions spec makes no sense

[Stalima.5490]

So, This specialization gives you 250 healing power when you have regeneration... but does not give you even one point to actually gain regeneration...?

 

This means you can very easily end up with a more or less dead trait without someone else specifically placing regeneration onto you.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Stalima.5490

[Random Wax Orc.7695]

The Synergetics of a lot of the Engineer Traits needs some love.  Odd, one would think of all the classes, Engineers would get Synergetics done right.

[Dawdler.8521]

Hmmmmmmm last I checked half the point of the healing turret was its regen and you can trait turrets in inventions, separate from that is the heal aspects of the traitline making it meta in WvW for the support scrapper and having constant regen boon in the zerg is... well duh... (and you have like 50% or so uptime with elixirgun alone).

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Hmmmmmmm last I checked half the point of the healing turret was its regen and you can trait turrets in inventions, separate from that is the heal aspects of the traitline making it meta in WvW for the support scrapper and having constant regen boon in the zerg is... well duh... (and you have like 50% or so uptime with elixirgun alone).

The point is that there is a minor trait which triggers if you have regeneration. Minor traits usually work on trait lines without requiring the player to use specific skills to function, they usually function entirely based on the effects of the trait line itself.

Look at steel packed powder, for example. Even if you don't use a single explosive utility skill in your build, you get some use of it because of explosive entrance, which is an explosion. It's just a single stack of vulnerability, but the trait is not entirely useless.

Now look at energy amplifier. This trait requires you to have regeneration to function and then the inventions line doesn't give you a singe source of regeneration. Which means that it is entirely possible to create a build with inventions which has this trait absolutely dead.... it does literally nothing.

Sure, many effects of the engineer can be chosen to get regeneration for it to trigger. But this is one of the very very rare examples (if not even the only one, not sure) of a minor trait being able to do literally nothing in specific builds.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Dawdler.8521]

32 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Which means that it is entirely possible to create a build with inventions which has this trait absolutely dead.... it does literally nothing.

Well I can create a full minstrel firearms/explosives build too that has exactly zero use for anything in those lines. It'd be stupid, but it's perfectly possible. Yet for some reason both those traitlines make sense in meta dps builds?

Meta support builds use inventions. That's it. And they take full advantage of the trait because they have pretty much perma regen. At best a few others that pick it specifically for the speed (WvW roamers) - which wont care one iota about the trait, or somewhat likely pack the elixir gun with previously mentioned high uptime.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[Stalima.5490]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Well I can create a full minstrel firearms/explosives build too that has exactly zero use for anything in those lines. It'd be stupid, but it's perfectly possible. Yet for some reason both those traitlines make sense in meta dps builds?

Meta support builds use inventions. That's it. And they take full advantage of the trait because they have pretty much perma regen. At best a few others that pick it specifically for the speed (WvW roamers) - which wont care one iota about the trait, or somewhat likely pack the elixir gun with previously mentioned high uptime.

 

It is not possible to create a build that cannot use any of the other engineer minor traits as I will explain:

 

Firarms triggers bleeding sometimes on critically hitting, you have a minimum of 5% crit chance meaning all builds no matter how little crit they have can benefit from all of the minor traits.

 

Explosive grants you an explosive attack on your first attack and every time you dodge roll meaning you can always benefit from all explosives traits no matter what you use

 

Elixirs triggers boons when your health decreases meaning you can benefit from the concentration and healing trait with zero investment

 

Tools is all about the toolbelt so you can always benefit from all traits so long as you actually slot skills in.

 

Both elites also contain default function meaning you can always benefit from all of their traits too.

 

This leaves this one trait in inventions being the only trait where it is possible for it to be more or less useless without specifically equipping a skill that grants regeneration, It would stand to reason that anticorrosion plating should be swapped with this since it actually works somewhat with the protection you get in an earlier trait... but then they would probably have to rework the condition removal on using a healing skill into something else like granting additional regeneration on all healing skills as you would then already remove conditions this way.  Failing that, just giving the traitline some passive healing that is always active rather than specifically triggered would make more sense.

 

I never really liked the inventions traitline too much because of it trying to balance up a healing and tanking specialization in one but don't mistake me, it is a powerful spec for any tanky build because of this.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Stalima.5490

[Dawdler.8521]

30 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Both elites also contain default function meaning you can always benefit from all of their traits too.

Condi scrapper says hi.

[Kodama.6453]

48 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Condi scrapper says hi.

Every condition damage build always also deals some power damage.

Is it alot of barrier you will get with that playstyle? No. But they are still giving (tiny) benefits.

The trait in question here on the other hand doesn't do anything at all, period, as long as you don't take any regeneration sources in your build. And as far as I know, it is the only minor trait with this potential of doing literally nothing. It is a design flaw.

And it is most likely an oversight from Anet. Because in the past, this wasn't the case. Reconstruction enclosure, another minor trait in inventions, used to grant regeneration when using the healing skill. These 2 traits back then worked together, ensuring that energy amplifier always is used, no matter your build. But they changed it from regeneration to protection, then forgot to change something about energy amplifier to ensure that it doesn't potentially is a dead trait.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[SkyCake.4216]

I've been wanting an Inventions for a long time. Could go a long ways to making turrets more useful and support more fun. It's a very boring traitline. Needs the same treatment that Explosives got at minimum. 

[bambi.6214]

3 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Well I can create a full minstrel firearms/explosives build too that has exactly zero use for anything in those lines. It'd be stupid, but it's perfectly possible. Yet for some reason both those traitlines make sense in meta dps builds?

You'r missing the point. This trait doesn't combo well with any other trait in this line. You need to sacrifice another trait line just to reliably use that perk, or a very specific piece of equipment (like rune of dwayna or sth), and it shouldn't be the case for minor traits.

Inventions basically isn't compatible with itself.

[Ghos.1326]

Yep. This is exactly what I've been saying and trying to get anet to notice that this is a big issue.

Imagine being a trait line that's supposed to be dedicated to defense and healing, yet gives no regen (was recently replaced with protection). pretty silly if you ask me.

There's more regen potential in alchemy currently than Inventions. Might be more healing potential period, as with bunker down you have to walk over a medkit which disappears after 10s (looking at backpack regenerator, free healing just for being inside of a kit).

[Dawdler.8521]

Somehow I understand now why we got Purity Of Purpose, with people arguing that a minor trait which support builds - like 90% of the target audience of inventions - already have pretty much 100% uptime for isnt enough. 

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

bunker down used to give regen if im not mistaken, so it might just be a remnant of that. we all know how easy it is to overlook things when it comes to engineer

[Lazze.9870]

6 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Somehow I understand now why we got Purity Of Purpose, with people arguing that a minor trait which support builds - like 90% of the target audience of inventions - already have pretty much 100% uptime for isnt enough. 

 

It actually baffles me that people are trying to make a point out of how this trait in theory can be entirely dead when the reality is that anyone using this traitline in a serious build will have some source of regen.

250 healing power from a supportive trait line when affected by one of the easiest to access boons in the game? Eh.. no brainer.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

On 9/14/2021 at 6:07 PM, Ghos.1326 said:

Yep. This is exactly what I've been saying and trying to get anet to notice that this is a big issue.

Imagine being a trait line that's supposed to be dedicated to defense and healing, yet gives no regen (was recently replaced with protection). pretty silly if you ask me.

There's more regen potential in alchemy currently than Inventions. Might be more healing potential period, as with bunker down you have to walk over a medkit which disappears after 10s (looking at backpack regenerator, free healing just for being inside of a kit).

Its... more common than you'd think.  There's two examples that come to mind:

Elementalists have an aura based trait in 4 out of their 5 core lines, yet the only way to reliably get an aura is in Fire.  There's usually an aura skill stashed in the weapon kit somewhere, but good luck getting any tactical use out of them.  Eventually Anet just made it so Auras were the gimmick of the Tempest, killing the previous fire signet build.  Because of where all the traits are placed any aura support build ends up sacrificing several potential boons due to limited trait space, essentially making aura support inferior to X/X/Firebrand.  It should be noted that, on ele, regeneration generally doesn't come from the water line.  It comes from the elite specializations.  The only regeneration in water is from on the trait that grants a frost aura when critically hit.

The Salvation line for Revs used to have regeneration in it.  Not anymore.  When Revs were given alacrity, and when the renegade was released, it became clear that the renegade was superior in group support and heals to the herald in most ways.  The devs decided to make regeneration the exclusive purview of the herald as a way to split up healing specs, instead giving ventari more and more orb support.  The rend result of that was... everyone quit running heal revs.  Orbs were too obtuse to work around, and without regen to stick to teammates it meant the healing was narrowly focused and easy to mess up.

 

 

[Ghos.1326]

On 9/14/2021 at 3:45 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Condi scrapper says hi.

I take it you never met our lord and savior system shocker.