When’s enough enough (elite specs)

[frareanselm.1925]

On 9/15/2021 at 3:54 PM, Vayne.8563 said:

Other games add actual classes. Sure it's hard to balance. But enough will be enough when people stop wanting more classes, which will be never. 

The fact is, for content that doesn't get a lot of content (PvP, WvW), this shakes things up. Makes new metas. Gives people reason to keep playing. 

I get the argument, but I think the benefit of new specs every couple of years is an investment in the future of the game.

The system of E-Specs in Gw2 was born OLD. Since 2009 games had the dual classes system which is better than e-spec because you have access to the 2 professions skills + the elite ones.

[Vayne.8563]

48 minutes ago, frareanselm.1925 said:

The system of E-Specs in Gw2 was born OLD. Since 2009 games had the dual classes system which is better than e-spec because you have access to the 2 professions skills + the elite ones.

Especs are a balance between new classes and dual classes and not expanding classes at all.  New classes make the game hard to balance. Dual classes make the game even hard to balance.  Especs only change a few skills giving the fewest balance problems of that lot.  Dual classes existed in Guild Wars 1 a long long time ago. They had trouble balancing them and IMPROVED the situation in Guild Wars 2 by release elite specs, instead of full dual classing.

 

Elite specs are newer than dual classing because they were designed to solve a problem.

[frareanselm.1925]

9 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Especs are a balance between new classes and dual classes and not expanding classes at all.  New classes make the game hard to balance. Dual classes make the game even hard to balance.  Especs only change a few skills giving the fewest balance problems of that lot.  Dual classes existed in Guild Wars 1 a long long time ago. They had trouble balancing them and IMPROVED the situation in Guild Wars 2 by release elite specs, instead of full dual classing.

 

Elite specs are newer than dual classing because they were designed to solve a problem.

This is a easy fix, developers wins because they have to work less in balancing, but the player loses because the experience is more limited. Id enjoy a ranger/thief with access to rapid fire and thief dagger skills in the same character. Better than any e-spec.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, frareanselm.1925 said:

This is a easy fix, developers wins because they have to work less in balancing, but the player loses because the experience is more limited. Id enjoy a ranger/thief with access to rapid fire and thief dagger skills in the same character. Better than any e-spec.

Players lose when there's no balance too.  There has to be a balance with balance (pun intended).

[Astralporing.1957]

20 hours ago, Marikus.1875 said:

What are you talking about. I DID play it and it has literally zero class differentiation between each player.

 

Player 1 who plays a blue mages is the exact same as Player 2 who plays a blue mage with respect to class skills. There's no such thing as traits that diversify the way the class plays.

Here in GW2, you have build variety. One ele may be spec'd X way with Y weapon while another ele may be a completely different spec.

That's not what you said originally. You claimed that every class plays the same. Which is obviously not true - blue mage plays completely differently than red mage, or black mage. The same for each of the melee and ranged dps classes as well. There's more similarity between different tank and healer classes, but that's still not to the point where they play the same.

[Marikus.1875]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's not what you said originally. You claimed that every class plays the same. Which is obviously not true - blue mage plays completely differently than red mage, or black mage. The same for each of the melee and ranged dps classes as well. There's more similarity between different tank and healer classes, but that's still not to the point where they play the same.

You misread what I wrote. I said every class plays the same and gave an example of what I meant. I said a blue mage player plays exactly like another BLUE MAGE PLAYER.

I never once said a blue mage plays identical to a dragoon. Give me a break and stop with the strawman trying to discredit me.

The FACTS still stand, IF YOU ARE CLASS X in FFXIV, AND another player is CLASS X, you BOTH play the IDENTICAL way. TWO dragoons play the exact same way. You have literally ZERO player agency (control) over how you play your class. It's cookie cutter. The game tells YOU how YOU and everyone else will play the class. It's boring and uninspired.

In GW2, this is NOT the case as we have MORE build diversity here WITHIN your class.

*slams gavel* 

That's enough on this topic.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Marikus.1875

[OriOri.8724]

On 9/18/2021 at 1:24 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

What good would that do though?

Most of the feedback they'd get are the same things people already post on the forums, regarding balance and what the new elite specialization should be able to do. Most of it got happily ignored by Arenanet.

So, even if they released information earlier, they would most likely ignore the feedback and do the elite specialization they want without a single regard to what players want.

The earlier feedback comes in about new mechanics, the easier it is to change them. Whether Anet would listen to the feedback or not is up to them, but it is easier for them to listen and act on it if it comes up earlier in the development cycle. Take mirage at PoF release for example, mirage cloak combined with elusive mind was absolutely a broken mechanic. But if ANet had been able to get that feedback ~9 months before release versus the 2-3 months they had when the beta happened, they would have had time to actually redesign that mechanic.

 

Just coming from a professional software engineer, its always easier to implement changes the earlier you receive feedback on something. Once its almost finished and is just being polished, its a lot harder to implement meaningful changes to something. Add the extra difficulty of changing mechanics at a late stage on top of Anet also having to polish the entire rest of the expansion, and its clear why there aren't any large scale changes in response to feedback from these open betas.  There just isn't time for ANet to implement it

[Klowdy.3126]

On 9/17/2021 at 8:38 AM, Ferret.3087 said:

Good point, but in my opinion I don't think that should stop Arena net from adding new weapons. We could pretty much skew that mentality as an excuse to pretty much never introduce anything new in the game - for example like fishing - I collect all mining tools, all of a sudden there is a fishing rod now? I don't think we should add fishing (A little bit extreme, but I think you see what I'm trying to say).

 

I would much rather have a new weapon with no skins that gives a bunch of classes a new way to play then to never release a new weapon because "it won't have as many skins".  This is the same case for the excuse I always hear about underwater weapons - "Arena net stopped making skins for them" - I don't care if arena net stopped making skins for them - put land spears in the game with the skins that exist now. Just my opinion of course 🙂 

They retroactively made skins for the skyscale, they could do the same for new weapons. The format is there, just gotta make a bioluminescent great axe, or a set of time keepers nunchucks (c'mon ANet). Add a legacy achievement, and add in the new skin/s to the current achievements. New weapons should totally be able to make their way into the game.

[Bookah pls.9352]

The concept of tying elite specs to weapons was nifty to start with but we are getting closer to having no further options that aren't completely ludicrous for the profession getting the weapon. Like in total warrior could receive 1 or 2 more weapons before we get into the realms of warrior roleplaying a caster (unless they copied daredevils melee monk style staff then it would be 2 or 3). Unless we ever got a main hand shield option. (edit: i forgot mace exists when i considered scepter as a probable melee weapon)

 

Would be nice to see some new weapons introduced that shook it up a bit and gave a lot more options, like just off the top of my head a short list of:

Fist weapons could work as both a melee weapon and a caster type (it would still have to be melee on ele ofc, rules are rules)

The age old requested land spears, could have made a proper dragoon type spec the new rev spec dodge mimics. Even ranged throwing spears could be a thing.

Throwing weapons in general have some options with variety 

Greataxe would be nice but it might be a hard job making it so different from greatsword and hammer.

Tomes like the ipos legendary but held in hand.

Flails

Main hand shield!

Crossbows

Those cool chakrams and feyblades from KoA

 

They could be implemented for base profs too which would cause some fantastic hype for a new expansion content feature, rather than a "what weapon will they shoehorn into my prof this time" type thing that is starting to show on some profs imo. I know i would find this far more exciting than the currently known features of EoD.

The lack of variety left i think is a big factor in why i'm not as excited for the new especs as previous expansions, some feel forced. 

Then for the future i look at my main and think well next time it's most likely going to be another offhand which would have to be shield since it's the probably the only thematically logical weapon left, unless they give us a sword but then it's still the same problem of boring offhands for necro and what do you do with a necro sword that isn't already covered by reaper (which while shield would be nice i honestly don't find single one hands exciting, i wish all one hand especs were a weapon combo like spellbreaker enabled)

Edited September 21, 2021 by Healy.9537