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how would you change the meta?


Khalisto.5780

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i'm kinda bored of this necro + supp meta

 

Right now we only had nerfs

 

Without nerfing necro + supp, we clearly need more dmg

 

Last time we had this dmg it was in a class that had access to stealth and insane superspeed uptime

 

it didnt go very well cuz it would nearly 1 shot everything non-bunker while having too much presence on the map

 

My only idea (not necessarily good) is buff something like berserker, no ports no stealth no insane super speed, something more manageable  in terms of counterplay

 

What are your suggestions

 

Overall buffing things that are long gone from meta (or even being viable) would already be great imo

Edited by Khalisto.5780
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  • Khalisto.5780 changed the title to how would you change the meta?
16 minutes ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

i'm kinda bored of this necro + supp meta

 

Right now we only had nerfs

 

Without nerfing necro + supp, we clearly need more dmg

 

Last time we had this dmg it was in a class that had access to stealth and insane superspeed uptime

 

it didnt go very well cuz it would nearly 1 shot everything non-bunker while having too much presence on the map

 

My only idea (not necessarily good) is buff something like berserker, no ports no stealth no insane super speed, something more manageable  in terms of counterplay

 

What are your suggestions

 

Overall buffing things that are long gone from meta (or even being viable) would already be great imo

 

Buffing things like core ele, core engi, wars, FB and chrono would be a lot better than straight up nerf more things right now. 

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The issue with your logic is that players tend to think that if there is counterplay it's not "viable".

The necromancer simply need a 33% shave to it's base LF pool in competitive modes, it will make core less tanky, reaper won't see much difference and scourge will have to actually manage it's LF because all it's shades skills would effectively have a higher cost. (I'm saying this since Feb 2020 patch preview were released...)

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20 minutes ago, Kanto.2485 said:

Agreed, aside from trapper runes the game feels pretty fine right now. Support guards and eles are paper nowadays btw so if you have problems with reaper/core necro+supp, target the supp instead of wasting time on the 50khp+support of the necro.

Easier said  than done, not everybody will  agree supp is the best target, also paired with a necro that will cc and pile up dmg on your team kill the guard may not be easy.

You either have a similar comp on your team or you need smart ppl to rotate around supp+necro, which is also hard to get, 80% of your games ppl will just push mid non stop into a ful cap node, that even if they win the tf it prolly took too much time.

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We have 27 "classes" available with 9 more coming with next e-spec.
Since A-net is so kitten lazy with nerfing all broken stuff in this game, they could just lock away specific e-speces in PvP and change them every season... This way meta wouldn't be stale and would require constant changes and adaptation, meanwhile A-net could collect data on classes and do better balance.

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I really think the past year of balancing has been really misguided. It has consisted of patch after patch of just tuning down the coefficients on skills that they deem to be "overperforming" or even just meta, which is ultimately never going to change things. Also, it's really suggestive of the knowledge that the balance team has about the game that they only ever "balanced" what was meta or was complained about, instead of taking initiative and changing the things that weren't seeing use. The game needs a proper shakeup to make things, if not "balanced", then at least new and exciting.

 

With that out of the way, my suggestion:

Take the weakest/most underutilised 1 or 2 traitlines on each class and rework them. The traitlines that should be targeted here are the ones that are outperformed by other traitlines, or lack variety in the traits that you can pick. This could mean reworking traitlines that are meta, but are only meta because they are incredibly reliant on a couple of powerful traits while the rest of the traits are just never worth taking. This could also rework traitlines so that they have more of a distinct "identity" or traitline mechanic augmented by your choice of traits. While this isn't a comprehensive list, this is a selection of things I think would be best to be used for this process:
 

Revenant - Corruption and Salvation (Corruption needed to be reworked with the resistance changes, and salvation needs something better than those healing orbs)

Warrior - Defence (The other traitlines need touch ups too, but this one is a no-brainer. Rework the 300s traits, and give this traitline some actual boon synergy with itself, instead of several traits that change or give boons that never work with each other)

Thief - Acrobatics (Another no-brainer, rework the 300s traits, and take the opportunity to give the traitline more group support, if you plan to make the next espec for thief a support)

Engineer - Tools and Inventions (Both of these traitlines have some incredibly strong traits, but also some incredibly useless and dead ones which need a total rework)

Elementalist - Water (some changes could be made to give it more boons, enabling it to be more competitive as a pick over arcane)

Ranger - Nature Magic and Druid (Ranger support builds are sort of dead in PvP, and changes to these (as well as the mechanic of CA) could easily make druid a competitive healer)

Mesmer - Illusions (A Tough choice, and it's not without its good traits, but the layout feels sort of messy, and it doesn't fully enable pure power or condi only)

Necromancer - Spite (This is actually a pretty strong traitline, but not all of the traits are competetive picks, so some minor changes could be made)

Guardian - Valor (Same position as necromancer, only a few traits actually need changing)

 

(It's important to note that I don't play half of these classes, so if anyone who mains a class disagrees with what I put, feel free to correct me.)

 

For reference though - ANet has done very good traitline reworks before, just look to the February megapatch. While this brought a lot of bad decisions to the game, the reworks made to Explosives and Devastation were significant improvements to both of those traitlines, providing a stronger identity and a wealth of possible trait options. This should be the goal with balance. Not just an endless "wack-a-mole" with shaving down whatever meta build of the month is strongest, but rather ensuring that the core game is brought up to a standard where there's no such thing as a bad option. As an added bonus, this process of buffing underutilised core traitlines would benefit core classes far more than their elite specs, since you can only play with two good core traitlines if you're using the elites.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Remove trapper rune stealth and buff core professions.

I would like to see a fair compromise of adding a 3 or 5sec ICD to trapper rune. That way they can't just spam it 24/7, which other classes with similar mechanics can't do that. It also means that the counter play of defensively popping a DH's trap, can't be immediately counter-countered by them just instantly stealthing again, which is utter BS.

This change allows you "catch" a DH appropriately, so there's now an actual window where you can safely burst them. Now the DH has to think about what else to use if his trap fails, further increasing the engagement of play.

 

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I'd be happy with the build options being restored, and with any & all uncreative flat damage nerfs being undone. 

Although that's like 90% of the 2/25/2020-present time's patches, it would be much more fun to play in. 

 

That update was actually terrible, and very clearly poorly thought out. It does to this game what the Evolution of Combat did to Runescape.

I mean how long have 300s CD traits existed without rework now?

And people have been complaining about necro since day 1 after the nerfpocalypse, because base game mechanics like LF weren't ready for damage output to drop to about half of what it had been prior.

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15 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

We have 27 "classes" available with 9 more coming with next e-spec.
Since A-net is so kitten lazy with nerfing all broken stuff in this game, they could just lock away specific e-speces in PvP and change them every season... This way meta wouldn't be stale and would require constant changes and adaptation, meanwhile A-net could collect data on classes and do better balance.

Yes, so we can have 5v5 revs only, 5v5 necs only.. good idea

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13 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

I would like to see a fair compromise of adding a 3 or 5sec ICD to trapper rune. That way they can't just spam it 24/7, which other classes with similar mechanics can't do that. It also means that the counter play of defensively popping a DH's trap, can't be immediately counter-countered by them just instantly stealthing again, which is utter BS.

This change allows you "catch" a DH appropriately, so there's now an actual window where you can safely burst them. Now the DH has to think about what else to use if his trap fails, further increasing the engagement of play.

 

You mean exactly how the Revealed debuff already works?

Do you have any other suggestions for things to add? Maybe to combat CC spam, we should add a boon that prevents CC? Or maybe to combat conditions, we should add a mechanic to allow players to "cleanse" conditions on them? Man, why has nobody thought of these before. I'm such a genius.

Fun fact, if you hug a trapper-DH closely (or a trapper ranger) they literally can't gain stealth. As soon as they drop a trap, if you're standing in it then it'll cause a damage strike and reveal the trapper. You don't need to equip any special utility, or even draw your weapon, just hold down the W key.

Edited by Ragnar.4257
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17 hours ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

Mesmer - Illusions (A Tough choice, and it's not without its good traits, but the layout feels sort of messy, and it doesn't fully enable pure power or condi only)

IMO, illusion is by far not the worst trait line. Especially when you consider hybrid playstyle. Although, it's a shame that they removed a lot of amulets from sPvP, so the only choice of hybrid is grieving which is paper as kitten...

Actually, it feels like none of the mesmer traitlines are bad per se, but there are definitely a lot of trash traits in there. The ones that you never pick under any circumstances. Riddle of Sand, for example (minor trait in Mirage). Like, can it BE any more trash?

Or how Domination traitline forces you to play Greatsword and pick GS trait, and vice versa, how GS forces you to pick Domination.

 

Honestly, I just want to see some power mesmer buffs. Not shatters, but something else.

I just came into the game a couple of weeks ago after a 3 years break... and boy did I come to the entirely different game compared to the one I left... Like they nerfed every single thing that was good and fun about power mesmer, except shatters. Shatters for some reason remained untouched for straight 10 years. But why nerf phantasms into the ground? Why nerf coefficients? I just checked all the abilities and the hardest hit I managed to do on a dummy was like 5k or something (I don't even remember what was that). Meanwhile warriors casually one-tapping people for 10k, just like they did 3 years ago.

Edited by Tiah.3091
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1 minute ago, Tiah.3091 said:

IMO, illusion is by far not the worst trait line. Especially when you consider hybrid playstyle. It's a shame that they removed a lot of amulets from sPvP, so the only choice of hybrid is grieving which is paper as kitten...

 

Actually, it feels like none of the mesmer traitlines are bad per se, but there are definitely a lot of trash traits in there. The ones that you never pick under any circumstances. Riddle of Sand, for example (minor trait in Mirage). Like, can it BE any more trash?

Or how Domination traitline forces you to play Greatsword and pick GS trait, and vice versa, how GS forces you to pick Domination.

I very much agree, none of the trait lines are fundamentally bad but so much has been removed from basekit and synergies that most of the traitlines are just below average

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6 minutes ago, Tiah.3091 said:

IMO, illusion is by far not the worst trait line. Especially when you consider hybrid playstyle. Although, it's a shame that they removed a lot of amulets from sPvP, so the only choice of hybrid is grieving which is paper as kitten...

Actually, it feels like none of the mesmer traitlines are bad per se, but there are definitely a lot of trash traits in there. The ones that you never pick under any circumstances. Riddle of Sand, for example (minor trait in Mirage). Like, can it BE any more trash?

Or how Domination traitline forces you to play Greatsword and pick GS trait, and vice versa, how GS forces you to pick Domination.

 

Honestly, I just want to see some power mesmer buffs. Not shatters, but something else.

I just came into the game a couple of weeks ago after a 3 years break... and boy did I come to the entirely different game compared to the one I left... Like they nerfed every single thing that was good and fun about power mesmer, except shatters. Shatters for some reason remained untouched for straight 10 years. But why nerf phantasms into the ground? Why nerf coefficients? I just checked all the abilities and the hardest hit I managed to do on a dummy was like 5k or something (I don't even remember what was that). Meanwhile warriors casually one-tapping people for 10k, just like they did 3 years ago.

Oh for sure, I'm not an expert in mesmer, you almost certainly know more than me about it.

 

They definitely could take the approach where instead of reworking single traitlines they go across the board and address bad traits from multiple traitlines, the only reason why I suggested reworking just one traitline is that it would be easier to give that traitline an identity that makes it stand out. With illusions for instance the traitline could be reworked around the idea of Compounding Power, giving you traits that let you get it from more sources, or give it additional benefits (which could work with with cross-traitline synergies). But I am by no means an expert in mesmer traitlines. I only hope that the person responsible for balance is.

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This is maybe unpopular but I would increase the cooldowns on all condi cleanses, and reduce some that cleanse a lot of conditions. I feel like at the moment the balance of viable classes is really far towards power builds. Some builds have way to much cleanse and can sustain condi builds for too long. Scourge being the worst for this.

 

I would also up the damage coefficients on weapons not used much. Weapons like rev hammer, warrior rifle, necro dagger e.t.c.

 

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  1. Add damage back to prime light beam.
  2. Add back mirage second dodge, revert chaotic interruption to old one.
  3. Increase thief damage by 10% (leave rifle alone)
  4. Increase Mesmer damage by 10%.
  5. Increase Ranger damage by 10%
  6. Increase Rev Damage by 5%
  7. Increase Warrior damage by 10% (leave berserker alone)
  8. Add some damage on some CC skills not all case by case like prime light beam Gaurdian Hammer.)
  9. Increase the duration of all non damaging fields by 5 seconds.
  10. Increase the distance of all portal abilities reduce the cooldown and duration so that you can always maintain portal upkeep if you choose to retain the other class limitation of portal. Also allow portals to be destructable by the enemy.
  11. Change all rune's that activate every 45seconds on elite use to "any time elite is used"
  12. Change all rune's that have 90 second cool downs to have 45second cool downs.
  13. Change on rune's that state "when a healing skill is used" to "If a skill you use heals you"  Cool down relative to effect.
  14. Change increase the duration of rune's that give aura's to 15seconds.
  15. Revert all runes that activated on evasion or on block to activate on every instance instead of once per second. (I hated this change)
  16. Change all ICD larger then 30seconds to 60, 45, 30seconds.

 

 

 

Edited by Genesis.5169
Added some thoughts on portal and warriors, added one more.
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