Lore behind each specialization

[quaniesan.8497]

For each of the new specialization, Anet comes up with some lore to back up the idea.  For example, "Willbenders are protectors of the Canthan throne".  Warrior and Elem have to do with some ancient tech or jade tech etc...

I felt it abit... shoe-horned, forced abit. And kinda.... random to say the least.

 it's kinda odd that, with all these crazy tech, they were just sipping tea watching world-ending threats from ancient dragons, like 5 times over. Like they are just too good for this endeavor, lol. 

 

Do you think these lore are well constructed?  

[Batel.9206]

It doesn't seem weird to me. Cantha was severely isolationist, closed off from the rest of the world. At first it was their own choice, wanting to keep their lands "pure" and unified (read: forcibly assimilating Kurzicks and Luxons, kicking out anyone who wasn't Canthan, and driving out all non-human species), then they got walled off by Zhaitan's rise and Steve--er, the Deep Sea Dragon--and they just rolled with it. On some level, they may well think they ARE too good for the fight against the dragons.

It's not surprising that, given their isolation, their culture and technology developed separately than the rest of the world. With all their focus inward on their land, their people, their way of life, it seems logical that how they fight would be inwardly focused, too.

So yes, I think the lore's well-constructed.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Batel.9206

[DanAlcedo.3281]

All I want I a way to see how the Gun Sabers are made. 

So I know where my War got the weapon from. 

 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Well think about how Firebrand is meta in all game modes yet they were apparently just sipping tea the whole time we were fighting Zhaitan and Modremoth.. well not exactly.

 

Elona had the same lore for all its classes. You can talk to various NPCs in Elona to learn about your class, and basically they had all these abilities and didn't help with the dragons until now, due to Joko, not to mention how much mounts would've helped. Cantha might have something similar going on, we don't know yet.

 

This is even lampshaded in Festival of the Four Winds when NPCs talk about how much mounts would've completely changed the campaign against Mordremoth.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[quaniesan.8497]

6 hours ago, Batel.9206 said:

It doesn't seem weird to me. Cantha was severely isolationist, closed off from the rest of the world. At first it was their own choice, wanting to keep their lands "pure" and unified

 

Yeh I read something about them going emo and closed off.  Though I'm not sure it's a believable narrative/storytelling that there are people who thinks keeping it pure is of more important over 5 world-ending threats.   It's like your  neighborhood is engulfed in raging fire and you go "nah... i'm sleeping in, the air is too smoky outside. Grosss" 

 interesting set of priorities I guess.

Edited September 17, 2021 by quaniesan.8497

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, quaniesan.8497 said:

 

Yeh I read something about them going emo and closed off.  Though I'm not sure it's a believable narrative/storytelling that there are people who thinks keeping it pure is of more important over 5 world-ending threats.   It's like your  neighborhood is engulfed in raging fire and you go "nah... i'm sleeping in, the air is too smoky outside. Grosss" 

 interesting set of priorities I guess.

It's a common theme for Asian nations to turn isolationist.

 

It's entirely possibly that they just didn't know there was anything to intervene with. They presumably knew something was going on up in Tyria, but the Canthans weren't exactly in a hurry to intervene when the charr threatened to destroy all three human nations in core Tyria (and did get two out of three) or Elona fell to Palawa Joko. All they'd likely know, short of whatever the Zephyrites might pass on, is that there was something making the trip north Really Dangerous. They might miss the trade, but not be aware of the world-shaking implications and think it's just not really their business.

 

Evidently they have been affected from what we've been told, but they probably don't know precisely why magic suddenly supercharged.

[Batel.9206]

9 hours ago, quaniesan.8497 said:

Yeh I read something about them going emo and closed off.  Though I'm not sure it's a believable narrative/storytelling that there are people who thinks keeping it pure is of more important over 5 world-ending threats.   It's like your  neighborhood is engulfed in raging fire and you go "nah... i'm sleeping in, the air is too smoky outside. Grosss" 

 interesting set of priorities I guess.

There's a powerful sense of control behind that isolation, I think. The ruler of Cantha, or whoever's pulling the strings of the rulers, essentially holds the nation in an iron grip, and has for roughly two and a half centuries. They couldn't do that so easily if their people were freely mingling with the rest of the world.

It provides an interesting contrast to pretty much all of GW2's storytelling up until now, which is that everybody, regardless of race or culture, needs to come together to defeat the Elder Dragons. Now we have this entire nation who decided, "nope." Why? How? I hope we get to explore it.

...or, possibly, they have no idea the dragons arose *because* they're so isolated. Or they're training their people to fight the dragons their own way, should that situation ever happen. We don't really know yet.

 

(Speaking of neighborhoods being engulfed in fire, one year ago my city was almost razed by a wildfire. You would not believe the number of people who went for a casual jog, walked their dogs, took their small children for a stroll, or stood outside on their porch for a smoke when the air was so thick with choking, ash-filled smoke that you couldn't see from one end of the street to another. This, when everyone in my area was told to be ready to evacuate at a second's notice. "Not my problem" is a powerful mentality...and a really weird one.)

[Ashantara.8731]

21 hours ago, quaniesan.8497 said:

Do you think these lore are well constructed?  

Simple answer? No.

It sounds more like they made up some of that "lore" along the way of developing those new elite specs to help them appear a bit more credible in their motley mechanics. Doesn't really "feel" Canthan to me, though, unless the new Cantha will be non-tradional and all magi-tech.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Ashantara.8731

[DaZeeHero.5210]

Do we know the new thief elite spec yet? please be Shinobi pleaaase! you know anything ninja like.

[Rogue.8235]

On 9/17/2021 at 2:59 AM, quaniesan.8497 said:

 

Yeh I read something about them going emo and closed off.  Though I'm not sure it's a believable narrative/storytelling that there are people who thinks keeping it pure is of more important over 5 world-ending threats.   It's like your  neighborhood is engulfed in raging fire and you go "nah... i'm sleeping in, the air is too smoky outside. Grosss" 

 interesting set of priorities I guess.

 

Actual world history is full of this kind of behavior.  Heck, America was not getting involved in WWII until Japan forced the issue.  Everyone treated the Golden Horde the same way:

"That's a not-here issue, let the people not-here deal with the Mongols."

Over and Over again we see examples of empires that turn isolationist without regard to world events.

Just Like Attila the Hun was a Roman problem, let the Romans deal with him.

"Khosrow  stampeding around Byzantium, causing Justinian II all sorts of problems?  Sounds like a not-my-problem kind of thing."  Everyone who wasn't the Byzantine Emperor

"Huge Viking problem?  That sucks for you, being across the channel.  Not our problem."  - Francia

"Brutal civil war because you stabbed Julius Caesar?  The very foundation of the Roman Republic being threatened?  Sucks to be you Brutus, but sounds like that's a 'you' problem."  - Kingdoms of Asia Minor

 

I can keep going on about empires, kingdoms, emirates, nations, etc. basically doing the same thing.  If it's not a problem over here then it's not a problem at all.

 

It is absolutely believable that civilizations will dismiss "world ending" threats because it may be ending your world, but not mine.

 

 

[Rogue.8235]

On 9/17/2021 at 4:26 PM, Ashantara.8731 said:

Simple answer? No.

It sounds more like they made up some of that "lore" along the way of developing those new elite specs to help them appear a bit more credible in their motley mechanics. Doesn't really "feel" Canthan to me, though, unless the new Cantha will be non-tradional and all magi-tech.

 

Cultures evolve over time.  In less than 50 years Rome went from a Republic to a Dictatorship.  The late-Renaissance and the industrial revolution happened in less than 250 years (the point at which kingdoms became nations).  In fact, world shifting technological changes often change the very nature of society in a short frame of time.  Agriculture being the earliest known example.  Chariots allowed the Bronze Age empires to exert military force as needed.  Chariots combined with writing gave rise to the Bronze Age empires, which far over-shadowed anything that existed before.  And then you have the Late Bronze Age Collapse (lasting less than 250 years), which is one of the most sudden and dramatic changes in human history.

 

To expect something so static after a span of 250 years is unrealistic.

 

Another note, 250 years ago is the year 1771, the fastest mode of transportation being the Horse and wooden ships if on water.  In 250 years we went from horses to launching rovers onto Mars.  Imagine what America was like 250 years ago compared to now.  Very different culture with very different technology.

 

One thing I consistently see on the forums is the lack of understanding of just how much time 250 years is.  

The Inca Empire rose and fell in less than 250 years.  (Pachacouti started the Incan expansion in 1438, the Spanish eradicated the Incan by 1572, that's 134 years).

 

Okay, I'm really going to stop now.  I think the point is made.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Rogue.8235
edited for clarity

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 9/16/2021 at 7:52 PM, quaniesan.8497 said:

it's kinda odd that, with all these crazy tech, they were just sipping tea watching world-ending threats from ancient dragons, like 5 times over. Like they are just too good for this endeavor, lol.

My understanding is that the tech is rather new - as in post-Zhaitan.

Unless they retcon it, on top of Cantha's own isolationist tendencies, the DSD has been sinking ships. There's zero evidence the Canthans have airships, so there'd be no way for Canthans to get in contact with Tyrians.

The only way Canthans would know of the Elder Dragons being a threat to Tyrians would be if they got a ship through the DSD's blockade, and then Zhaitan's army, and then back.

Which hasn't happened, because no Canthan has shown up other than rare sporadic sailors washing ashore from shipwrecks. And since that means the ships didn't return, Canthans wouldn't know of what's up besides a new species of magical, oversized, tentacled water-elemental-like species that are the DSD's minions. And maybe that there's an armada of undead forces blockading access to Tyria/Elona.

And the only way Canthans would know the Elder Dragons have died is because the ambient levels of magic in the world rose.

The first contact Canthans had with Tyrians/Elonians would have been the Zephyrites between the events of mid-Season 1 and the prologue to Season 2 (aka Bazaar of the Four Winds 2013 and Festival of the Four Winds 2014). At that time, only Zhaitan was killed. And unless the Aetherblades got in contact after, the Canthans wouldn't have had further contact. And at that point, the Canthans would likely think "well, they got that situation handled, no reason to dirty our hands".

And then there is their culture. Unlike Tyrians and Elonians, Canthans live alongside dragons. Lesser dragons they may be, but Canthan views of dragons have always been more... benevolent. So without being assaulted directly, they may not see the Elder Dragons as a force to fight or even an enemy. So the only Elder Dragon they may see as villainous would be the DSD and maybe Zhaitan. And even then, those are far off threats that don't bother them directly.

The trailer implies, however, that Joon is well aware of the Elder Dragons' importance in the world's Antikytheria aka The All, and why they're necessary for the world's survival. Based on the dialogue, it sounds like Joon is trying to use technology to break that dependency on the Elder Dragons, so it really wouldn't be that the Canthans are "just doing nothing". They're just not straight up fighting the Elder Dragons.

And it's not like lore on elite specializations is new. Even HoT elite specializations - well, some of them - had lore. But PoF's elite specializations had been around for 100+ years in every case but Renegade, and yet they "did nothing" about the Elder Dragons. Because they were politically separated, fighting off-screen, or dealing with their own problems.

On 9/16/2021 at 10:58 PM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

All I want I a way to see how the Gun Sabers are made. 

So I know where my War got the weapon from.

Made using Echovald magical amber from the Jade Wind. Glad they didn't overlook that side of the lore with the jade-this and jade-that in the trailers.

Hopefully they remember that it was by mixing jade and amber that the Kurzicks and Luxons got the full use of the materials.

On 9/17/2021 at 2:59 AM, quaniesan.8497 said:

Yeh I read something about them going emo and closed off.  Though I'm not sure it's a believable narrative/storytelling that there are people who thinks keeping it pure is of more important over 5 world-ending threats.   It's like your  neighborhood is engulfed in raging fire and you go "nah... i'm sleeping in, the air is too smoky outside. Grosss" 

 interesting set of priorities I guess.

Just look at modern American politics. People over here, sadly, think it's more important and patriotic to commemorate a terrorist attack 20 years ago, all the while refusing to get vaccines or wear a mask or remain in isolation to lessen a pandemic happening in the moment that has taken 100x more lives than said terrorist attack.

People are shortsighted fools with very, very weird priorities.

On 9/17/2021 at 4:26 PM, Ashantara.8731 said:

Simple answer? No.

It sounds more like they made up some of that "lore" along the way of developing those new elite specs to help them appear a bit more credible in their motley mechanics. Doesn't really "feel" Canthan to me, though, unless the new Cantha will be non-tradional and all magi-tech.

Cantha is very much going to appear pretty magi-techy by the sounds of it. A "recent" development though, where things like the "jade sphere" and gunswords come from.

5 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

Another note, 250 years ago is the year 1771, the fastest mode of transportation being the Horse and wooden ships if on water.  In 250 years we went from horses to launching rovers onto Mars.  Imagine what America was like 250 years ago compared to now.  Very different culture with very different technology.

I really hate this argument. The "250 years ago is 1770s" one. Technology has advanced exponentially in the past 250 years compared to 1776 (the most common year I see applied to this argument) and 250 years before that.

Yes, a lot of things can happen in 250 years, but these past 100 years alone is a HUGE leap of technology that just simply doesn't compare well with the entire rest of history. Compare the technology of 1700 and 1550 and you'll see a far smaller difference than between 2020 and 1920, let alone 1770.

But yes, cultures change with pretty much every generation. A single culture will be fundamentally changed by 50 years time, and national borders can rise and fall in that span or less.

Just... don't use technological advancements of the past 250 years to make a point. In the thousands of years of history, it's the odd man out.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Rogue.8235]

15 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Just... don't use technological advancements of the past 250 years to make a point. In the thousands of years of history, it's the odd man out.

• What about the advent of bronze working and the development of the Bronze Age empires? 
  • Followed by the Bronze Age collapse? 
• The advent of widespread black-powder weapons on the political balance of medieval Europe? 
• Advances in sailing technology that allowed Europe to explore the rest of the world? 
  • And the immediate rise of colonialism and mercantilism?
• The Viking Expansion? 
• The walls of Urfa and Jericho leading to the development of the first cities as we know them? 
• While not technological, the warfare techniques of Shaka that instantly changed the face of Central/Southern Africa. 
• What about the introduction of arquebusiers in the Sengoku Jidai? 
• What about the introduction of statistical analysis to epidemiology? and how that changed the way modern humans manage outbreaks of disease?  
• What about the invention of irrigation that allowed for the mass gathering of humans into a single community?
• The invention of writing that led to inter-cultural trade en masse?

I think I made my point.  Human history was not stagnant and then, suddenly 20th century.  There are so many examples of changes that drastically changed the human experience.  To ignore all of these examples (which is only a tiny list I came up with off the top of my head) is ignoring actual historical events.

Technological advancement is not the odd man out.  It is a consistent factor of human evolution.

 

[DaZeeHero.5210]

Human history was stagnant compared to anything that happened at the dawn of and after the Industrial revolution though. just, in comparison to the leaps forward in learning and technology.

 

Another such massive increase happened when the Printing Press became popular. suddenly books did not cost the ancient equivalent of 10 grand each to own.

[Rognik.2579]

Haven't really read replies, but I can look at it kind of how Japan is in modern day. They were isolationists for a long time, and only really opened their borders because people forced them to. Even now, they have a LOT of old traditions, but at the same time, they very quickly learned and developed technology so that they are one of the world leaders in that field. Thing is, the country is a place where you can have a metropolitan area like Tokyo, and the instant you leave the city's borders, there's rice fields and people transporting water from a well on a wagon (maybe not that extreme, but close). So no, I don't think it's that unusual that a country that was supposedly so advanced in dragonjade tech have a lot of old-traditions behind some of their elite specs. Catalyst, meanwhile, seems like a more modern spec with the jade sphere as a field that can change elements. I'm going to wait until the last three elites are revealed before passing final judgement, but so far, no objection to the lore they've given.

[Rogue.8235]

2 hours ago, DaZeeHero.5210 said:

Human history was stagnant compared to anything that happened at the dawn of and after the Industrial revolution though. just, in comparison to the leaps forward in learning and technology.

 

Another such massive increase happened when the Printing Press became popular. suddenly books did not cost the ancient equivalent of 10 grand each to own.

 

I really believe that you underestimate the technological advances throughout human history.  A wall may not seem like much to you, but Urfa and Jericho seriously changed the face of human history in a short time (relatively) with the construction of defensive walls to fortify their cities from raiders.

The wheel may not seem like much to you, but chariots were the crux of military power during the early bronze age.  Bronze working itself led to the expansionist capabilities of those bronze age empires.

Irrigation alone is massive.  To go from tiny villages of a few families to be able to congregate in a massive social network purely because there's enough food for everyone.

The imperial, colonial expansions of Europe (before the industrial revolution, after feudal-era) has such far-reaching consequences throughout the world that are still felt to this day, and are the primary cause of many regional conflicts.

 

If human history was stagnant, there would be no nations, no empires, no cities.    Life expectancy alone hasn't stagnated and only increased throughout time.  This is because of advancements in physical care, brought upon by the ability to specialize in such a field, brought upon the construction of safe communities that allow people to specialize, brought upon by advances in agriculture.

 

Don't discount such advances that shifted the world in a short time frame entirely because everything past the industrial revolution seems equally primitive to you.  I only make this assumption because you seem to think human history is mostly stagnant until, all of a sudden, 20th century.

 

Quick note, ancient civilizations were capable of advanced mathematics.  Just a fun fact.

 

 

[DaZeeHero.5210]

I'm speaking in relative terms. yes great advancements were made througout history. the wheel for instance revolutionized travel. but there have been a few innovations which have caused faster change for the years to come than anything to come before, making the prehistoric years seem stagnant in comparison.

 

It's definitely no star wars galaxy, where tech stays largely the same for 100,000 years or even gets worse.

[draxynnic.3719]

I think the distinction here is this:

 

Yes, there were beats in history where some new idea caused significant change, or some disaster caused the downfall of empires. But those were few and far between, often with decades or centuries between them. Historians have observed that the life of a typical farmer probably didn't change all that much from the classical era up to the early modern period apart from the equipment of the soldiers who trampled and burned their crops and ransacked their house every so often.

 

It's kinda crazy from the perspective of history that late medieval galleys only represented relatively incremental changes from classical Greek triremes, and then we went from still mostly using wooden sail-powered ships in the 1860s to battleships four decades later, and aircraft carriers four decades after that. We've entered a world in which the sort of technological jumps that used to happen decades or centuries apart are now happening so regularly that we've grown blasé about it.

 

That said, I don't think it's going to turn out that Cantha has been continuing to follow Usoku's principles throughout the centuries of isolation. We just haven't had the opportunity to find out what has happened in that time. 

[DaZeeHero.5210]

Cantha began  to worship the evil gods of anime, and is now full of catgirl demon creatures who have enslaved its populace!

[DanAlcedo.3281]

3 hours ago, DaZeeHero.5210 said:

Cantha began  to worship the evil gods of anime, and is now full of catgirl demon creatures who have enslaved its populace!

Cantha is Ff14 confirmed? 

[DaZeeHero.5210]

FF14 isn't anime, at least if you know what anime means. it uses some similar "rule of cool" techniques but anime refers to ANIMATION, in a specific subset of japanese style.

 

Also FF14 has more bunny girls than catgirls since Shadowbringers.. and the bunnyboypoaclypse will be upon us once Endwalker hits.

 

And here I am having played a hyur midlander girl for 6 years, with no intention of changing

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

9 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

• What about the advent of bronze working and the development of the Bronze Age empires? 
  • Followed by the Bronze Age collapse? 
• The advent of widespread black-powder weapons on the political balance of medieval Europe? 
• Advances in sailing technology that allowed Europe to explore the rest of the world? 
  • And the immediate rise of colonialism and mercantilism?
• The Viking Expansion? 
• The walls of Urfa and Jericho leading to the development of the first cities as we know them? 
• While not technological, the warfare techniques of Shaka that instantly changed the face of Central/Southern Africa. 
• What about the introduction of arquebusiers in the Sengoku Jidai? 
• What about the introduction of statistical analysis to epidemiology? and how that changed the way modern humans manage outbreaks of disease?  
• What about the invention of irrigation that allowed for the mass gathering of humans into a single community?
• The invention of writing that led to inter-cultural trade en masse?

I think I made my point.  Human history was not stagnant and then, suddenly 20th century.  There are so many examples of changes that drastically changed the human experience.  To ignore all of these examples (which is only a tiny list I came up with off the top of my head) is ignoring actual historical events.

Technological advancement is not the odd man out.  It is a consistent factor of human evolution.

You list a bunch of isolated advancements in technology, but how many of these technological advances you list happen within the same 100 year timespan?

And I'm not saying that history was stagnant. I'm saying it was a snail's pace in comparison to the 20th century.

Slow != not moving

[DanAlcedo.3281]

2 hours ago, DaZeeHero.5210 said:

FF14 isn't anime, at least if you know what anime means. it uses some similar "rule of cool" techniques but anime refers to ANIMATION, in a specific subset of japanese style.

 

Also FF14 has more bunny girls than catgirls since Shadowbringers.. and the bunnyboypoaclypse will be upon us once Endwalker hits.

 

And here I am having played a hyur midlander girl for 6 years, with no intention of changing

 FF14 is an Anime Weebs Dream. 

[DaZeeHero.5210]

For people who don't know what anime is maybe.

[draxynnic.3719]

It probably depends on whether you define it by the most technical definition (basically 'Japanese style animation'), or as a shorthand for 'containing tropes and themes normally associated with Japanese comics, light novels, and animation'.

 

Which Final Fantasy has in droves. Heck, there are a number of movie-length features and TV serieses based on FF and made by the company that certainly qualify as anime (Square Enix is a Japanese company, after all). So the only thing stopping FF from being the game of the anime is that it's the other way around - the games came first and the anime were derived from the game. But it's still definitely a series that shares a lot of tropes and themes with anime.