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For each of the new specialization, Anet comes up with some lore to back up the idea.  For example, "Willbenders are protectors of the Canthan throne".  Warrior and Elem have to do with some ancient t

There's a powerful sense of control behind that isolation, I think. The ruler of Cantha, or whoever's pulling the strings of the rulers, essentially holds the nation in an iron grip, and has for rough

Simple answer? No. It sounds more like they made up some of that "lore" along the way of developing those new elite specs to help them appear a bit more credible in their motley mechanics. Doesn'

about the tech advancemanets of humans in our world , when i look at it, their are 2 major events that changed everything, and you also see this back when you have stories/books/movies/games in these times, First is agriculture, before agriculture it was all nomands and basicly no cities. it changes storysettings before and after agriculture. 

The second was the industrial revolution, a storysetting in roman time or medieval, will not be that much different, as the weapons are the same, transporation is the same. The industrial revolution changed everything again, as after that you got faster transportation and different weapons including guns and cannons, the differnt in technology in 250 years in GW uis basicly because gw1 plays before the industrial revolution, and gw2 plays after it. 

 

And if you think the computer is a third, but i dont think so, thats more of a differnece between roman and medieval, it changed a bit, but not so drasticly

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On 9/20/2021 at 9:04 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

My understanding is that the tech is rather new - as in post-Zhaitan.

Unless they retcon it, on top of Cantha's own isolationist tendencies, the DSD has been sinking ships. There's zero evidence the Canthans have airships, so there'd be no way for Canthans to get in contact with Tyrians.

The only way Canthans would know of the Elder Dragons being a threat to Tyrians would be if they got a ship through the DSD's blockade, and then Zhaitan's army, and then back.

Which hasn't happened, because no Canthan has shown up other than rare sporadic sailors washing ashore from shipwrecks. And since that means the ships didn't return, Canthans wouldn't know of what's up besides a new species of magical, oversized, tentacled water-elemental-like species that are the DSD's minions. And maybe that there's an armada of undead forces blockading access to Tyria/Elona.

And the only way Canthans would know the Elder Dragons have died is because the ambient levels of magic in the world rose.

The first contact Canthans had with Tyrians/Elonians would have been the Zephyrites between the events of mid-Season 1 and the prologue to Season 2 (aka Bazaar of the Four Winds 2013 and Festival of the Four Winds 2014). At that time, only Zhaitan was killed. And unless the Aetherblades got in contact after, the Canthans wouldn't have had further contact. And at that point, the Canthans would likely think "well, they got that situation handled, no reason to dirty our hands".

And then there is their culture. Unlike Tyrians and Elonians, Canthans live alongside dragons. Lesser dragons they may be, but Canthan views of dragons have always been more... benevolent. So without being assaulted directly, they may not see the Elder Dragons as a force to fight or even an enemy. So the only Elder Dragon they may see as villainous would be the DSD and maybe Zhaitan. And even then, those are far off threats that don't bother them directly.

The trailer implies, however, that Joon is well aware of the Elder Dragons' importance in the world's Antikytheria aka The All, and why they're necessary for the world's survival. Based on the dialogue, it sounds like Joon is trying to use technology to break that dependency on the Elder Dragons, so it really wouldn't be that the Canthans are "just doing nothing". They're just not straight up fighting the Elder Dragons.

And it's not like lore on elite specializations is new. Even HoT elite specializations - well, some of them - had lore. But PoF's elite specializations had been around for 100+ years in every case but Renegade, and yet they "did nothing" about the Elder Dragons. Because they were politically separated, fighting off-screen, or dealing with their own problems.

Made using Echovald magical amber from the Jade Wind. Glad they didn't overlook that side of the lore with the jade-this and jade-that in the trailers.

Hopefully they remember that it was by mixing jade and amber that the Kurzicks and Luxons got the full use of the materials.

Just look at modern American politics. People over here, sadly, think it's more important and patriotic to commemorate a terrorist attack 20 years ago, all the while refusing to get vaccines or wear a mask or remain in isolation to lessen a pandemic happening in the moment that has taken 100x more lives than said terrorist attack.

People are shortsighted fools with very, very weird priorities.

Cantha is very much going to appear pretty magi-techy by the sounds of it. A "recent" development though, where things like the "jade sphere" and gunswords come from.

I really hate this argument. The "250 years ago is 1770s" one. Technology has advanced exponentially in the past 250 years compared to 1776 (the most common year I see applied to this argument) and 250 years before that.

Yes, a lot of things can happen in 250 years, but these past 100 years alone is a HUGE leap of technology that just simply doesn't compare well with the entire rest of history. Compare the technology of 1700 and 1550 and you'll see a far smaller difference than between 2020 and 1920, let alone 1770.

But yes, cultures change with pretty much every generation. A single culture will be fundamentally changed by 50 years time, and national borders can rise and fall in that span or less.

Just... don't use technological advancements of the past 250 years to make a point. In the thousands of years of history, it's the odd man out.

Hey Guild Wars Wikipedia. 
By which I mean it as a sincere compliment, always been reading your replies with interest since I remember following the guild wars 2 forums.

 

For the first time wondering if you might have missed something, or I have.

 

You say cantha had no idea of the existence of the dragons because they were isolated from the rest of Tyria.

 

If my memory serves me right, and maybe it doesn’t or it does partially, there were conversations with the order of whispers in which agents hinted they were secretly and sporadically in contact with cantha while the rest of the world wasn’t. I don’t remember where I read this so I can’t back it up. I thought it was in the main game’s story line somewhere when choosing the order of whispers and/or talking to one of their agents in the game. 
 

I’m guessing you can debunk or confirm this, hoping you will.

 

Hope you will enjoy the new expansion 

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3 hours ago, Bast Bow.2958 said:

If my memory serves me right, and maybe it doesn’t or it does partially, there were conversations with the order of whispers in which agents hinted they were secretly and sporadically in contact with cantha while the rest of the world wasn’t. I don’t remember where I read this so I can’t back it up. I thought it was in the main game’s story line somewhere when choosing the order of whispers and/or talking to one of their agents in the game. 

Are you sure you're not confusing Cantha for Elona? The Order of Whispers definitely had secret ways into Elona, but I don't think they mentioned Cantha, which is across the ocean, quite a ways away. However, they did have Kuunavang. While not an elder dragon, she is a large dragon that the Canthan hero of old spoke to. 

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5 hours ago, Bast Bow.2958 said:

Hey Guild Wars Wikipedia. 
By which I mean it as a sincere compliment, always been reading your replies with interest since I remember following the guild wars 2 forums.

 

For the first time wondering if you might have missed something, or I have.

 

You say cantha had no idea of the existence of the dragons because they were isolated from the rest of Tyria.

 

If my memory serves me right, and maybe it doesn’t or it does partially, there were conversations with the order of whispers in which agents hinted they were secretly and sporadically in contact with cantha while the rest of the world wasn’t. I don’t remember where I read this so I can’t back it up. I thought it was in the main game’s story line somewhere when choosing the order of whispers and/or talking to one of their agents in the game. 
 

I’m guessing you can debunk or confirm this, hoping you will.

 

Hope you will enjoy the new expansion 

You're likely thinking of the Movement of the World's mention of the Order of Whispers having contacts in Elona, which got a soft-retcon in Path of Fire. The only mention of Cantha by OoW agents I recall would be a map of Cantha during GW1's time in an OoW base in DR, and mention of the Canthan district in DR by some OoW in the main story. And of course the wild speculation of Doern's origins by the PC suggesting Canthan.

Cantha was 100% isolated from Central Tyria after Zhaitan's rise, until the Zephyrites took to the skies at least (though only confirmed communication between Cantha and Zephyrites was in late 1326/early 1327).

 

And it's not that "Cantha had no idea of the existence of the Elder Dragons" so much as "no clue how severe the Elder Dragons threaten to Central Tyria was". They should be aware of the deep sea dragon to some degree, and of Jormag who woke up before isolation. Primordus woke up before the isolation too, but most Tyrians didn't believe in its existence until a couple decades after Zhaitan's awakening (when Zhaitan's existence was also doubted - there's a line in Sea of Sorrows where some characters call Jormag The Elder Dragon and Zhaitan a second one, despite being the fourth to wake up).

Canthans very much should have known about at least some of the Elder Dragons' existence given when Jormag rose and DSD's placement, but wouldn't have known of the extent of the threat they posed to Central Tyrian lands - at least until 1326 AE.

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1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You're likely thinking of the Movement of the World's mention of the Order of Whispers having contacts in Elona, which got a soft-retcon in Path of Fire. The only mention of Cantha by OoW agents I recall would be a map of Cantha during GW1's time in an OoW base in DR, and mention of the Canthan district in DR by some OoW in the main story. And of course the wild speculation of Doern's origins by the PC suggesting Canthan.

Cantha was 100% isolated from Central Tyria after Zhaitan's rise, until the Zephyrites took to the skies at least (though only confirmed communication between Cantha and Zephyrites was in late 1326/early 1327).

 

And it's not that "Cantha had no idea of the existence of the Elder Dragons" so much as "no clue how severe the Elder Dragons threaten to Central Tyria was". They should be aware of the deep sea dragon to some degree, and of Jormag who woke up before isolation. Primordus woke up before the isolation too, but most Tyrians didn't believe in its existence until a couple decades after Zhaitan's awakening (when Zhaitan's existence was also doubted - there's a line in Sea of Sorrows where some characters call Jormag The Elder Dragon and Zhaitan a second one, despite being the fourth to wake up).

Canthans very much should have known about at least some of the Elder Dragons' existence given when Jormag rose and DSD's placement, but wouldn't have known of the extent of the threat they posed to Central Tyrian lands - at least until 1326 AE.


I highlighted what it was. Guess my memory was a bit cluttered but not totally off. Thank you both 

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Would be cool if there was a little quest attached to the elite specs this time. Like a thief meets the Am Fah (if theyre still around) or an Ele goes to train at Shing Jea or whereever. Better make them optional tho or else people will complain lmao.

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3 hours ago, GRRRR.3521 said:

Would be cool if there was a little quest attached to the elite specs this time. Like a thief meets the Am Fah (if theyre still around) or an Ele goes to train at Shing Jea or whereever. Better make them optional tho or else people will complain lmao.

Maybe change up the method of acquiring the elite spec weapons to include such a thing.

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In the case of Doern...

 

Assuming he's not just trolling the PC, I think he's actually a hint of some OTHER human realm somewhere rather than Cantha. Neither his name nor his appearance appear to be Canthan (although he could be using an assumed name and a disguise). 

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5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

In the case of Doern...

 

Assuming he's not just trolling the PC, I think he's actually a hint of some OTHER human realm somewhere rather than Cantha. Neither his name nor his appearance appear to be Canthan (although he could be using an assumed name and a disguise). 

Well that map in the Priory from LWS2 had trade routes to the "Sunken Islands" and the "Wetlands" continent. So there has already been implications of two other human inhabited areas.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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Could be other human nations out there for some reason humans are very prolific. Yes that is the word think about it of the major races and other humans are the most widespread and probably have the biggest population. Actually I am confident they have. And they came from another world. I do not get why the charr have a smaller population do they not like breeding or what.

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On 10/4/2021 at 6:59 PM, adormtil.1605 said:

Could be other human nations out there for some reason humans are very prolific. Yes that is the word think about it of the major races and other humans are the most widespread and probably have the biggest population. Actually I am confident they have. And they came from another world. I do not get why the charr have a smaller population do they not like breeding or what.

Humanity being prolific isn't that surprising when you factor in the Elder Dragons consuming almost all life on the planet last dragon rise.

There's evidence to suggest most of Cantha and Elona were either largely, or entirely, uninhabited before humanity showed up. Explaining their rather quick dominance of both continents. Even going into Tyria, places Orr, and the Crystal Sea, were seemingly in the same situation. Only Ascalon, which itself was only populated by tribalistic Grawl before the Charr showed up, and the Kryta/Woodland Cascades region, seemed to have any sort of real habitation challenge for humanity.

I suspect most of the rest of Tyria is likely still in the same state. Large stretches of open wilderness with scattered tribal races like the Harpies, Hylek, Grawl, etc. scattered fairly far apart from each other.

The Charr's military nature means they are constantly losing people in centuries of endless war, which would have put a damper on the Charr's population. But even then, the Iron Legion controls Ascalon, and the Blood and Ash legions likely control similarly sized regions. They are, by far, the most dominant race on Tyria besides humanity.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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I'm fine with the isolation - it makes sense to me that certain combat styles specific to certain regions would stay that way, especially since there are good enough in-game reasons for these societies to remain out of contact with each other until the next xpac launches. At least it makes more sense than something like mounts... it seems odd that nobody figured out the pretty universal idea that it can be efficient to ride trained animals around for specialized movement and combat purposes.

EDIT: after the above bit, I originally put up a pretty huge wall of text about the vaccine/social responsibility. I haven't changed my views or anything, but after a good night's sleep decided it was unfair to include a potentially derailing aspect to the thread, which isn't a bad thread at all.

Edited by voltaicbore.8012
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sidething maybe that i heard hewre about the 0 beds, is that the emergency beds arent counted?, lets asay a hospital has 10 IC beds, with 3 as emergency status for people with accidents.  then they will report to have 7 available, if you then have 7 occupided they say 0, even through there are still 3 empty, but those have to stay empty in case of emergencies. offcourse the nobody having time updating the bed reports is also the case. 

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13 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Humanity being prolific isn't that surprising when you factor in the Elder Dragons consuming almost all life on the planet last dragon rise.

There's evidence to suggest most of Cantha and Elona were either largely, or entirely, uninhabited before humanity showed up. Explaining their rather quick dominance of both continents. Even going into Tyria, places Orr, and the Crystal Sea, were seemingly in the same situation. Only Ascalon, which itself was only populated by tribalistic Grawl before the Charr showed up, and the Kryta/Woodland Cascades region, seemed to have any sort of real habitation challenge for humanity.

I suspect most of the rest of Tyria is likely still in the same state. Large stretches of open wilderness with scattered tribal races like the Harpies, Hylek, Grawl, etc. scattered fairly far apart from each other.

The Charr's military nature means they are constantly losing people in centuries of endless war, which would have put a damper on the Charr's population. But even then, the Iron Legion controls Ascalon, and the Blood and Ash legions likely control similarly sized regions. They are, by far, the most dominant race on Tyria besides humanity.

Apart from tengu, naga, Veldrunner centaurs (and Losaru in the Crystal Desert, who had a grudge against humans for some reason), heket (I've seen no evidence they weren't present in Elona before human arrival, although obviously human conquest would push them away from human settlements, and unfortunately some of the sources are no longer available), giants in the Crystal Desert, Forgotten in the Crystal Desert, Wardens if they're not actually transformed humans...

 

...and, tragically, possibly other races we don't know about because they're extinct, just as Elonian centaurs appear to be now.

 

Humans spread across a lot of territory for the same reasons as the charr - because at their height they were militaristic enough to seize it. 

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10 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Apart from tengu, naga, Veldrunner centaurs (and Losaru in the Crystal Desert, who had a grudge against humans for some reason), heket (I've seen no evidence they weren't present in Elona before human arrival, although obviously human conquest would push them away from human settlements, and unfortunately some of the sources are no longer available), giants in the Crystal Desert, Forgotten in the Crystal Desert, Wardens if they're not actually transformed humans...

...and, tragically, possibly other races we don't know about because they're extinct, just as Elonian centaurs appear to be now.

Humans spread across a lot of territory for the same reasons as the charr - because at their height they were militaristic enough to seize it. 

Everything you point out here not only doesn't contradict by statements(I said largely or entirely uninhabited, not just entirely uninhabited), but actually supports it.

For instance

  • Humans arrived on Cantha in 786 BE
  • The Jade Wind occurred in 872 AE
  • Hostility with the Tengu didn't begin until 880 AE, due to increased human habitation of Shing Jea as a result of the Jade Wind
  • The factions manual points out that the Yeti(who live near exclusively on Shing Jea), have been the Tengu's ancient enemies since before Cantha existed as a unified nation
  • The Tengu's largest settlement, which is treated as the closest thing they have to a capital, in on Shing Jea
  • We know that large parts of Kaineng City such as Raisu Palace, Tahnnakai Temple, Vizunah Square(then Courthouse Square), Maatu Keep, SunJiang District, Kaineng Center, and others, aka most of the city we get to explore in GW1, predate the Jade Wind, and predate hostility with the Tengu.
  • Likewise the Kurzicks have been inhabiting the Echovald as an independent group since 459 BE.
  • The Naga lived in the Jade Sea before it got petrified, and hostilities between them and humanity also only occurred after the Jade Sea due to their race being nearly wiped out, and blaming humans for it.

If humanity was able to inhabit Cantha for over 1,600 years, and not get into any known notable conflicts with the Tengu or Naga in that time frame, despite clearly inhabiting most of it for that same amount of time, then its pretty safe to assume that neither the Tengu or Naga inhabited those regions, as to not get displaced by human's arrival. Which means the majority of the Canthan continent was uninhabited by any intelligent species, with the Tengu being mostly contained on Shing Jea, and the Naga in the Jade Sea, and everything else in-between being free land.

On top of that, the fact that the Luxons were living on the Jade Sea for hundreds of years, and no conflicts with the Naga were noted, the Naga likely lived largely under the sea like Krait do. Leaving the actual surface of the water, and the land around it, up for grabs by humans since the Naga didn't need/use it. Meaning most of the jade Sea, while technically inhabited, wasn't inhabited in a way that would prevent human habitation of the same area. So really only Shing Jea was an actually issue for humans in Cantha.

The same is true of Elona, and leading up into southern Tyria. Istan has no known native intelligent life. The Desolation/Crystal Desert(then Crystal Sea) is similarly lacking in any sort of real civilization or intelligent species besides some scattered giants, and the Losaru centaurs who likely migrated there from Elona after the sea got nuked. Orr likewise had no known intelligent species before human arrival. Leaving most of Elona/southern Tyria similar sparely inhabited. With some scattered centaur tribes in Kourna, and the Hylek and Harpies likely making early pushed into Vabbi from Dzalana. Explaining how humanity rather quickly spread across the continent... there was little there for them to fight against in the first place.

Getting into larger issues of technology. Large populations are only possible due to the invention of large scale farming, and animal husbandry. Which most of these species don't have. Even at their "height" before human arrival most species on Tyria would have been relegated to small, scattered, family unit/tribal villages. Because they simply don't have the tech level to feed larger populations. They simply couldn't have inhabited that much land to begin with.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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On 9/17/2021 at 2:52 AM, quaniesan.8497 said:

 it's kinda odd that, with all these crazy tech, they were just sipping tea watching world-ending threats from ancient dragons, like 5 times over. Like they are just too good for this endeavor, lol. 


This is the first time Humans have been on Tyria for an Elder Dragon awakening so as amusing as your comment was it's pretty far off the timeline lol

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On 9/17/2021 at 3:37 AM, Batel.9206 said:

It doesn't seem weird to me. Cantha was severely isolationist, closed off from the rest of the world. At first it was their own choice, wanting to keep their lands "pure" and unified (read: forcibly assimilating Kurzicks and Luxons, kicking out anyone who wasn't Canthan, and driving out all non-human species), then they got walled off by Zhaitan's rise and Steve--er, the Deep Sea Dragon--and they just rolled with it. On some level, they may well think they ARE too good for the fight against the dragons.

It's not surprising that, given their isolation, their culture and technology developed separately than the rest of the world. With all their focus inward on their land, their people, their way of life, it seems logical that how they fight would be inwardly focused, too.

So yes, I think the lore's well-constructed.


Add to that Cantha has "as far as we know" had very little interaction with Elder Dragons.
Their land has not been plagued by Destroyers, Branded, Risen, Mordrem and Icebrood like the mainland has.

If they have had any issues with Elder Dragons then for the most part it would be with the Sea Dragon, and likely mostly if not only when they've been out at sea, violating it's territory.
Unfortunately there are only stories from Canthan sailors to account for that.
They may have had some encounters with Destroyers as well but if they did I expect these would be rare.
If I were a betting man i'd say probably the most trouble Canthans would have had from the Sea Dragon is not from it's minions but rather from various deep sea species that it would have driven out from the ocean depths, like the Krait and Karka on core Tyria.

Plenty have pointed out in the past too that there's also the possibility that some Canthans would worship the Elder Dragons being that Dragons are an important part of their culture and all that.
Part of me hopes that is true and becomes a part of End of Dragons as it would lead to some interesting story since we've killed 5 of them and are the champion of another one.

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On 10/9/2021 at 10:11 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Everything you point out here not only doesn't contradict by statements(I said largely or entirely uninhabited, not just entirely uninhabited), but actually supports it.

For instance

  • Humans arrived on Cantha in 786 BE
  • The Jade Wind occurred in 872 AE
  • Hostility with the Tengu didn't begin until 880 AE, due to increased human habitation of Shing Jea as a result of the Jade Wind
  • The factions manual points out that the Yeti(who live near exclusively on Shing Jea), have been the Tengu's ancient enemies since before Cantha existed as a unified nation
  • The Tengu's largest settlement, which is treated as the closest thing they have to a capital, in on Shing Jea
  • We know that large parts of Kaineng City such as Raisu Palace, Tahnnakai Temple, Vizunah Square(then Courthouse Square), Maatu Keep, SunJiang District, Kaineng Center, and others, aka most of the city we get to explore in GW1, predate the Jade Wind, and predate hostility with the Tengu.
  • Likewise the Kurzicks have been inhabiting the Echovald as an independent group since 459 BE.
  • The Naga lived in the Jade Sea before it got petrified, and hostilities between them and humanity also only occurred after the Jade Sea due to their race being nearly wiped out, and blaming humans for it.

If humanity was able to inhabit Cantha for over 1,600 years, and not get into any known notable conflicts with the Tengu or Naga in that time frame, despite clearly inhabiting most of it for that same amount of time, then its pretty safe to assume that neither the Tengu or Naga inhabited those regions, as to not get displaced by human's arrival. Which means the majority of the Canthan continent was uninhabited by any intelligent species, with the Tengu being mostly contained on Shing Jea, and the Naga in the Jade Sea, and everything else in-between being free land.

On top of that, the fact that the Luxons were living on the Jade Sea for hundreds of years, and no conflicts with the Naga were noted, the Naga likely lived largely under the sea like Krait do. Leaving the actual surface of the water, and the land around it, up for grabs by humans since the Naga didn't need/use it. Meaning most of the jade Sea, while technically inhabited, wasn't inhabited in a way that would prevent human habitation of the same area. So really only Shing Jea was an actually issue for humans in Cantha.

The same is true of Elona, and leading up into southern Tyria. Istan has no known native intelligent life. The Desolation/Crystal Desert(then Crystal Sea) is similarly lacking in any sort of real civilization or intelligent species besides some scattered giants, and the Losaru centaurs who likely migrated there from Elona after the sea got nuked. Orr likewise had no known intelligent species before human arrival. Leaving most of Elona/southern Tyria similar sparely inhabited. With some scattered centaur tribes in Kourna, and the Hylek and Harpies likely making early pushed into Vabbi from Dzalana. Explaining how humanity rather quickly spread across the continent... there was little there for them to fight against in the first place.

Getting into larger issues of technology. Large populations are only possible due to the invention of large scale farming, and animal husbandry. Which most of these species don't have. Even at their "height" before human arrival most species on Tyria would have been relegated to small, scattered, family unit/tribal villages. Because they simply don't have the tech level to feed larger populations. They simply couldn't have inhabited that much land to begin with.

I think you're making a lot of assumptions there that aren't substantiated.

 

Heket were present pretty much everywhere in mainland Elona that had enough water to support them, which wasn't occupied by humans (and they still often ranged very close to settlements and other significant locations like Seborhin), and that was after centuries of human occupation and extermination efforts. We also know that humans have often displaced races they don't get along with (centaurs in Kryta, for instance, and there was no indication in Guild Wars 1 that Kryta was ever centaur territory, despite it being later revealed that it used to be one of their primary home grounds before humans from Orr pushed them out). There is no evidence that heket came down from Dzalana rather than just having been there the whole time and having been pushed to less desirable regions due to being overwhelmed by humans.

 

So that gives us three intelligent species that occupied mainland Elona before human arrival: centaurs, djinn, and heket. The region now known as the Crystal Desert was occupied by giants and Forgotten before human arrival. Istan has Istani skale (intelligent enough to have a simple religion, as shown by early Nightfall quests). And this is assuming the legend of harpies being outcasts from Dwayna's realm is true: if it's not, we have harpies being present in both mainland Elona and Istan.

 

Plenty of nonhuman species, and that's not including any that might have been pushed out entirely or rendered extinct, and thus we don't see them in Elona during GW1 or GW2.

 

In Cantha, the Tengu may or may not have been restricted to Shing Jea before human arrival, or those on the mainland may have been wiped out or pushed out centuries ago. It's noteworthy that the yeti you mention are present on the mainland, and I don't think humans shipped them over - it's just that they're restricted to fairly narrow regions of land that humans don't want, but they likely had a wider range before humans arrived. Naga probably avoided conflict with humans before the Jade Wind primarily because they lived underwater, as you hypothesise, but they're still there. You've completely ignored my point about the wardens (there's a theory that they might be transformed humans, but we know ArenaNet uses the unreliable narrator, so something that's presented as a theory may well be untrue). You're also ignoring nonhumanoid sapients like Canthan dragons and kirin which, while not tool-users, are nevertheless highly intelligent and may well have held territory as well, even if they've proven willing to share it with humans when not driven mad by the Jade Wind.

 

There's also gaki, whatever they are.

 

So Elona has six intelligent species that appear to have been present before human arrival; seven if you include harpies. Cantha has five, six if you include wardens, seven if you include gaki. Not to mention that there is apparently archaeological evidence of dwarfs and Forgotten being present in Cantha before human occupation (allies of Glint and the human gods and therefore possibly leaving freely to make space for human colonisation). 

 

Hardly seems like terra nullius to me.

PS In the case of Orr, we know full well that Orr was where the elder races conducted their final throws of the proverbial dice for survival before the Elder Dragons went into hibernation.

Edited by draxynnic.3719
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6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Heket were present pretty much everywhere in mainland Elona that had enough water to support them, which wasn't occupied by humans (and they still often ranged very close to settlements and other significant locations like Seborhin), and that was after centuries of human occupation and extermination efforts. We also know that humans have often displaced races they don't get along with (centaurs in Kryta, for instance, and there was no indication in Guild Wars 1 that Kryta was ever centaur territory, despite it being later revealed that it used to be one of their primary home grounds before humans from Orr pushed them out). There is no evidence that heket came down from Dzalana rather than just having been there the whole time and having been pushed to less desirable regions due to being overwhelmed by humans.

Except there is explicit dialogue in GW1, and the 20th anniversary artbook, that states Dzalana is the homeland of the harpies and Heket. The Harpies and Heket only started piercing further into Elona because the other prices left Ahmtur to defend the eastern border by himself when, in the past, all three princes used to do it.

This is further corroborated by Guild Wars 2 where we are told the Hylek's appearance in Tyria started because of the melting of the lower Shiverpeaks creating land for the Hylek to move into, and them spreading from there. If you map out all of the Helyk villages(at least those listed on the wiki) the immigration pattern explicitly follows a line directly from Dzalana.

https://i.imgur.com/rtDmE95.jpg

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

So that gives us three intelligent species that occupied mainland Elona before human arrival: centaurs, djinn, and heket. The region now known as the Crystal Desert was occupied by giants and Forgotten before human arrival. Istan has Istani skale (intelligent enough to have a simple religion, as shown by early Nightfall quests). And this is assuming the legend of harpies being outcasts from Dwayna's realm is true: if it's not, we have harpies being present in both mainland Elona and Istan.

The Crystal Desert didn't exist before human arrival. It was the Crystal Sea, and I doubt giants lived in the water. Given the existence of giants in the nearby southern Shiverpeaks, they likely came down from there after the Crystal Desert was formed(thus long after human arrival). Much like how the Crystal Desert centaurs are migrants from Elona.

Also, according to the official timeline we have, the Forgotten only went into the Crystal Desert in 174AE, whereas the Primeval Kings had already spread into the Crystal desert, and built tombs there as far back as 29AE.

And you can teach dogs to follow simple commands. That does not make them intelligent as we use the word.

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Plenty of nonhuman species, and that's not including any that might have been pushed out entirely or rendered extinct, and thus we don't see them in Elona during GW1 or GW2.

Well no, not really, as shown above. And that isn't how lore or canon work in any series. Until its been stated to have happened, it didn't, so there are no species humanity has rendered extinct until there are.

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

In Cantha, the Tengu may or may not have been restricted to Shing Jea before human arrival, or those on the mainland may have been wiped out or pushed out centuries ago. It's noteworthy that the yeti you mention are present on the mainland, and I don't think humans shipped them over - it's just that they're restricted to fairly narrow regions of land that humans don't want, but they likely had a wider range before humans arrived. Naga probably avoided conflict with humans before the Jade Wind primarily because they lived underwater, as you hypothesise, but they're still there. You've completely ignored my point about the wardens (there's a theory that they might be transformed humans, but we know ArenaNet uses the unreliable narrator, so something that's presented as a theory may well be untrue). You're also ignoring nonhumanoid sapients like Canthan dragons and kirin which, while not tool-users, are nevertheless highly intelligent and may well have held territory as well, even if they've proven willing to share it with humans when not driven mad by the Jade Wind.

Again, until there is stated conflict between humanity and the Tengu, pushing them off from mainland Cantha, it didn't happen.

I already mentioned the Naga as being there.

Until we hear otherwise, we can only use the available information to determine the origin of the wardens, and that is humanity.

Kirin and Saltspray dragons show no signs of ever having "territory" as we define it. Much like the Djinn, who just lived in rocks and such, only coming to inhabit buildings after being bound by human masters, the animals acted like animals, and only "inhabited" land in so much as they walked around it. Also, there is only one Kirin shown to have real intelligence in GW1, and that one was a minor deity. I don't recall anything saying that was normal for their kind.

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

So Elona has six intelligent species that appear to have been present before human arrival; seven if you include harpies. Cantha has five, six if you include wardens, seven if you include gaki. Not to mention that there is apparently archaeological evidence of dwarfs and Forgotten being present in Cantha before human occupation (allies of Glint and the human gods and therefore possibly leaving freely to make space for human colonisation). 

Two. Centaurs and Djinn, with Harpies and Helk being outside invaders. What were the other two?

The Deldrimor Dwarves are non native immigrants to Cantha, much like the Dredge. They are not native to Cantha, they are a Tyrian race who briefly came to Cantha and then either left or died off. Likewise, the Forgotten are not of Cantha either, and thus not really a factor in the conversation of the natural development of races post Elder Dragon rise being scarce/scattered.

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

PS In the case of Orr, we know full well that Orr was where the elder races conducted their final throws of the proverbial dice for survival before the Elder Dragons went into hibernation.

They fought against Zhaitan in Orr, they did not live there. Stop trying to move goalposts here. Even still we know it was only the Musraat and Forgotten fought Zhaitan. The Jotun, Dwarves, and Seers, didnt want to fight.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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