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Lore behind each specialization


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On 9/16/2021 at 7:52 PM, quaniesan.8497 said:

I felt it abit... shoe-horned, forced abit. And kinda.... random to say the least.

Tell that to Renegade lol. 

On 9/16/2021 at 7:52 PM, quaniesan.8497 said:

Do you think these lore are well constructed?  

No, especially when we learn it by pushing a button rather than from an NPC teaching us it.

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For each of the new specialization, Anet comes up with some lore to back up the idea.  For example, "Willbenders are protectors of the Canthan throne".  Warrior and Elem have to do with some ancient t

There's a powerful sense of control behind that isolation, I think. The ruler of Cantha, or whoever's pulling the strings of the rulers, essentially holds the nation in an iron grip, and has for rough

Simple answer? No. It sounds more like they made up some of that "lore" along the way of developing those new elite specs to help them appear a bit more credible in their motley mechanics. Doesn'

11 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

They fought against Zhaitan in Orr, they did not live there. Stop trying to move goalposts here. Even still we know it was only the Musraat and Forgotten fought Zhaitan. The Jotun, Dwarves, and Seers, didnt want to fight.

Did Drax say that they lived there?

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On 10/11/2021 at 2:54 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

This is further corroborated by Guild Wars 2 where we are told the Hylek's appearance in Tyria started because of the melting of the lower Shiverpeaks creating land for the Hylek to move into, and them spreading from there. If you map out all of the Helyk villages(at least those listed on the wiki) the immigration pattern explicitly follows a line directly from Dzalana.

https://i.imgur.com/rtDmE95.jpg

One major issue with this is that the lore doesn't say the hylek migrated to Tyria at all. The exact quote is:

With the warming of the Shiverpeaks, large portions of the southern shore from the boundaries of Kryta to the edge of Orr have become swamps and bayous—prime hylek territory. The hylek have expanded into these areas and flourished. As their numbers have grown, they've taken over more land, continuing to spread.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Go_Forth_and_Multiply:_The_Hylek

All it says is that the hylek have expanded into the areas that have become swamps and bayous - not that they migrated to Central Tyria.

These hylek in question were around in GW1, before the Shiverpeaks melted, called frogmen in general as only one of their tribes was called hylek then (though mechanically - and thus on GWW - are the same as heket, lorewise hekets are toads, while hylek are frogs), and lived in Sparkfly Swamp or on the Tarnished Coast. With the Shiverpeaks melting (and being renamed Steamspur Mountains), they moved into the locations now called Mount Maelstrom and Timberline Falls.

There is no evidence to suggest they all come from Dzalana. At least not within the past few centuries.

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The Crystal Desert didn't exist before human arrival. It was the Crystal Sea, and I doubt giants lived in the water. Given the existence of giants in the nearby southern Shiverpeaks, they likely came down from there after the Crystal Desert was formed(thus long after human arrival). Much like how the Crystal Desert centaurs are migrants from Elona.

It should be noted that not all of the Crystal Desert was a sea. The Desolation in particular was stated to be a verdant coastline, and we see land-species variants of giant bones dubbed Giganticus Lupicus in select areas of the Crystal Desert. So whether it was in the form of islands or the sea being smaller than the desert is now, some of that landmass was still landmass in the past.

Most notable of all of these would, of course, be the Lupicus Boneyard.

Though while land-species bones were more common in GW1, GW2 did admittedly retcon many into Leviathan skeletons, but several still exist with the tusked, land-mammal-skull-design that were around in GW1 and found also in Ascalon, Far Shiverpeaks, and Tarnished Coast.

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Also, according to the official timeline we have, the Forgotten only went into the Crystal Desert in 174AE, whereas the Primeval Kings had already spread into the Crystal desert, and built tombs there as far back as 29AE.

That bit refers to the Forgotten in their entirety of the species retreating. There are two references to the Forgotten going to the desert before 100 BE, let alone 174 AE:

Other than internal conflicts, the only real threat to the Charr at this time was the Forgotten, who dwelled within the Crystal Desert far to the south. But, through judicious use of the mountains dividing their lands from those of the Forgotten, the Charr continued to maintain undisputed control over the northern lands. And, as the Forgotten pulled back, called to duty by some other power, they ceased to threaten the Charr.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

V. After our failed assault on Zhaitan, our Forgotten allies withdrew to what is now the Crystal Desert. We knew that, upon the other races' annihilations, the world would be ours.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mursaat_Lore_Tablet

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

There is no evidence to suggest they all come from Dzalana. At least not within the past few centuries.

Actually there was a post back on GW Guru made by Regina Buenaobra that states that the Hylek are descendants of the Heket from Elona. So yes, they come from there.

The Hylek we see in EoTN back in GW1 had seemingly only recently moved into the area. being confined to just Sparkfly Swamp and Magus Stones, lacking the entrenched position in the region we see them have in GW2.

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It should be noted that not all of the Crystal Desert was a sea

Well yes, no one said it was all sea. Obviously the Tomb of the Primeval Kings wasn't built on water.

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

That bit refers to the Forgotten in their entirety of the species retreating. There are two references to the Forgotten going to the desert before 100 BE, let alone 174 AE:

Both referenced sources have not only been heavily rectonned, but the latter even explicitly has a lore discrepancy tag over the very subject... might want to double check your links before you post them.

Obviously the Forgotten didn't retreat to the Crystal Desert(sea) after the defeat of Zhaitan if they were still all over the world in the centuries/millennia that followed.

On 10/12/2021 at 1:48 AM, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Did Drax say that they lived there?

Given this whole discussion is about where things live his comment makes no sense, and serves no purpose, otherwise.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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22 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Actually there was a post back on GW Guru made by Regina Buenaobra that states that the Hylek are descendants of the Heket from Elona. So yes, they come from there.

The Hylek we see in EoTN back in GW1 had seemingly only recently moved into the area. being confined to just Sparkfly Swamp and Magus Stones, lacking the entrenched position in the region we see them have in GW2.

Well, first off, Dzalana != Elona (it's north of Elona - apparently according to GW2's map), so that's actually a point against your argument.

Second off, again, EotN happened before the melting of the Shiverpeaks. There's no timeframe given for the summary of Regina's statement (which unfortunately is lost to time thanks to Cursed shutting down the site), but it couldn't have happened when proclaimed, and it very well could have happened before humans moved into Kryta for all we know.

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Well yes, no one said it was all sea. Obviously the Tomb of the Primeval Kings wasn't built on water.

Really? First you talk about how humans didn't go into the region until after the Exodus (and thus no sea), now you backtrack on it. To quote the conversation:

  

On 10/11/2021 at 8:36 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

So that gives us three intelligent species that occupied mainland Elona before human arrival: centaurs, djinn, and heket. The region now known as the Crystal Desert was occupied by giants and Forgotten before human arrival. Istan has Istani skale (intelligent enough to have a simple religion, as shown by early Nightfall quests). And this is assuming the legend of harpies being outcasts from Dwayna's realm is true: if it's not, we have harpies being present in both mainland Elona and Istan.

 

On 10/11/2021 at 2:54 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The Crystal Desert didn't exist before human arrival. It was the Crystal Sea, and I doubt giants lived in the water. Given the existence of giants in the nearby southern Shiverpeaks, they likely came down from there after the Crystal Desert was formed(thus long after human arrival). Much like how the Crystal Desert centaurs are migrants from Elona.

Also, according to the official timeline we have, the Forgotten only went into the Crystal Desert in 174AE, whereas the Primeval Kings had already spread into the Crystal desert, and built tombs there as far back as 29AE.

  

23 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It should be noted that not all of the Crystal Desert was a sea. The Desolation in particular was stated to be a verdant coastline, and we see land-species variants of giant bones dubbed Giganticus Lupicus in select areas of the Crystal Desert. So whether it was in the form of islands or the sea being smaller than the desert is now, some of that landmass was still landmass in the past.

Most notable of all of these would, of course, be the Lupicus Boneyard.

Though while land-species bones were more common in GW1, GW2 did admittedly retcon many into Leviathan skeletons, but several still exist with the tusked, land-mammal-skull-design that were around in GW1 and found also in Ascalon, Far Shiverpeaks, and Tarnished Coast.

That bit refers to the Forgotten in their entirety of the species retreating. There are two references to the Forgotten going to the desert before 100 BE, let alone 174 AE:

Other than internal conflicts, the only real threat to the Charr at this time was the Forgotten, who dwelled within the Crystal Desert far to the south. But, through judicious use of the mountains dividing their lands from those of the Forgotten, the Charr continued to maintain undisputed control over the northern lands. And, as the Forgotten pulled back, called to duty by some other power, they ceased to threaten the Charr.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

V. After our failed assault on Zhaitan, our Forgotten allies withdrew to what is now the Crystal Desert. We knew that, upon the other races' annihilations, the world would be ours.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mursaat_Lore_Tablet

So your statement basically went from "there were no giants there before humans because it was sea and humans built there after it became a desert" to "well of course it wasn't all sea before it was a desert, humans built there".

 

Which is it?

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Both referenced sources have not only been heavily rectonned, but the latter even explicitly has a lore discrepancy tag over the very subject... might want to double check your links before you post them.

Obviously the Forgotten didn't retreat to the Crystal Desert(sea) after the defeat of Zhaitan if they were still all over the world in the centuries/millennia that followed.

The Mursaat Lore Tablets haven't been retconned yet, and you even use their as an argument against drax earlier:

On 10/11/2021 at 2:54 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

They fought against Zhaitan in Orr, they did not live there. Stop trying to move goalposts here. Even still we know it was only the Musraat and Forgotten fought Zhaitan. The Jotun, Dwarves, and Seers, didnt want to fight.

This lore comes explicitly - and solely - from the Lore Mursaat Tablets.

 

So... is it retconned and thus not reliable, or is it reliable and proof that drax is moving the goalpost of his argument? Which is it?

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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On 10/14/2021 at 10:41 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Well, first off, Dzalana != Elona (it's north of Elona - apparently according to GW2's map), so that's actually a point against your argument.

Well no it isn't. The GW2 map clearly shows Dzalana being on the Elonian continent, so I'm not sure what you are talking about there. Likewise the GW1 map, and both the GW1 and GW2 wiki's, list Dzalana as a part of Elona. There is nothing in any of the games suggesting Dzalana isn't part of Elona.

On 10/14/2021 at 10:41 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Second off, again, EotN happened before the melting of the Shiverpeaks. There's no timeframe given for the summary of Regina's statement (which unfortunately is lost to time thanks to Cursed shutting down the site), but it couldn't have happened when proclaimed, and it very well could have happened before humans moved into Kryta for all we know.

The larger Hylek migration into Tyria not happening until after the Shiverpeaks melted doesn't preclude some Hylek having moved into Tyria earlier. Hylek had been migrating out of Dzalana for years before even Nightfall began, and EoTN is years after that. That some of them made it to Tyria before the larger migration happened isn't contradictory at all. They were very clearly new to the region in EoTN, given their lack of entrenchment in the limited areas they appeared in.

On 10/14/2021 at 10:41 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Really? First you talk about how humans didn't go into the region until after the Exodus (and thus no sea), now you backtrack on it. To quote the conversation:

So your statement basically went from "there were no giants there before humans because it was sea and humans built there after it became a desert" to "well of course it wasn't all sea before it was a desert, humans built there".

Which is it?

I think you should actually take a moment to read what I said, because what you quoted shows the exact opposite of what you claim. As you showed in the very first thing you quoted.

On 10/11/2021 at 1:54 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The Crystal Desert didn't exist before human arrival. It was the Crystal Sea, and I doubt giants lived in the water. Given the existence of giants in the nearby southern Shiverpeaks,

And are you.... are you seriously trying to imply that seas don't have things like islands, or land around them? Like, no really, everything you said here makes no sense otuside of the context of you trying to imply that a sea is nothing but endless water with no land around it, or island inside of it. I'm not sure if you know this, but bodies of water can, and are, defined by where their waters meet land, and you can have something built on the shores of a body of water and be considered to be part of the region of that body of water.

Humans built things on the islands/shore in/around the sea. Such small areas of land are not suitable for a race of large creatures like giants, which have yet to demonstrate any sort of ship building technology.

On 10/14/2021 at 10:41 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The Mursaat Lore Tablets haven't been retconned yet, and you even use their as an argument against drax earlier:

This lore comes explicitly - and solely - from the Lore Mursaat Tablets.

So... is it retconned and thus not reliable, or is it reliable and proof that drax is moving the goalpost of his argument? Which is it?

One part of it being wrong doesn't mean everything else in it is wrong. Its like trying to argue because one passage in a later Lord of the Rings book contradicts one event in another, it makes the whole book invalid... that isn't how canon works anywhere, in any series, at any point. The only thing that is contradictory is the one specific thing that is. Trying to boil it down to an all-or-nothing situation is nothing but a transparent straw man, and shows clear desperation in trying to find any way to attack any viewpoint that disagrees with yours.

I don't know why you seem to have their near religious vendetta against me, but your posts have become increasingly nonsensical in the time since you started it.

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1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Well no it isn't. The GW2 map clearly shows Dzalana being on the Elonian continent, so I'm not sure what you are talking about there. Likewise the GW1 map, and both the GW1 and GW2 wiki's, list Dzalana as a part of Elona. There is nothing in any of the games suggesting Dzalana isn't part of Elona.

The map doesn't place any continental boundaries, so I'm not sure what your argument is there. And Dzalana's label on the GW1 map is not in the same place as on GW2's map (read: retconned location).

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Hylek had been migrating out of Dzalana for years before even Nightfall began,

Got a source for this?

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They were very clearly new to the region in EoTN, given their lack of entrenchment in the limited areas they appeared in.

They seemed pretty entrenched, tbh. What with multiple tribal territories, structures, etc.

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I think you should actually take a moment to read what I said, because what you quoted shows the exact opposite of what you claim. As you showed in the very first thing you quoted.

And are you.... are you seriously trying to imply that seas don't have things like islands, or land around them? Like, no really, everything you said here makes no sense otuside of the context of you trying to imply that a sea is nothing but endless water with no land around it, or island inside of it. I'm not sure if you know this, but bodies of water can, and are, defined by where their waters meet land, and you can have something built on the shores of a body of water and be considered to be part of the region of that body of water.

Humans built things on the islands/shore in/around the sea. Such small areas of land are not suitable for a race of large creatures like giants, which have yet to demonstrate any sort of ship building technology.

"The Crystal Desert didn't exist before the humans arrived." is what you said.

And to debunk my statement that "not all the desert was the sea" (which innately disproves any implication that I was "imply[ing] that seas don't have things, or land around them?" that you just made, seemingly forgetting my very first comment on the matter) you said that the Tomb of the Primeval Kings wasn't built on water but...

The Tomb of the Primeval Kings - and indeed the Primeval Dynasty's expansion that is in question here - came after the Exodus - after the Crystal Sea dried up in 1 BE. Despite the fact that you're now claiming that they were built during the Crystal Sea but on islands (which is in of itself without any evidence, even without taking into account dates of founding versus date of Crystal Sea drying up).

Basically, Drax was making the probable argument that giants could have been living on those islands and shores before 26 AE when the Primeval Dynasty moved in - be it before or after the sea became a desert. But you refuted this by saying it was a sea, only to later say there were places people could live.

And in all of this, you continue to lack any comment on the most critical factor that in the Crystal Desert, where giants currently roam, are Giganticus Lupicus bones, which existed long before the Crystal Sea dried up, and therefore proof that those regions weren't indeed sea but habitable places.

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One part of it being wrong doesn't mean everything else in it is wrong.

So why would, without providing proof of retcon, my use of those passages be at all incorrect, while your use of those passages be correct?

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I don't know why you seem to have their near religious vendetta against me, but your posts have become increasingly nonsensical in the time since you started it.

Ironic, given every time I try to open up with a very civil discussion with you, and merely ask you to clarify when your posts are confusing, or provide links to counter-argue, while you've yet to provide any.

 

If it is so nonsensical to ask you why a source material supports your claim but not mine, or why you refuse to comment on a piece of counterargument, then what kind of discussion is sensible to you?

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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44 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The map doesn't place any continental boundaries, so I'm not sure what your argument is there. And Dzalana's label on the GW1 map is not in the same place as on GW2's map (read: retconned location).

Or, you know, Dzalana is just a big place like any other region in the world. Ascalon, Kryta, the Shiverpeaks, the Maguuma, Orr, Vabbi, Kourna, Istan. the Echovald, the Jade Sea, Shing Jea, etc. Not sure if you know this but a region is not just the land directly under the text. Going from there the label is now to where it was in GW1 wouldn't even make it as big as Orr.

44 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Got a source for this?

Uhh GW1?

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lieutenant_Murunda

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Tell me about the lands near the Citadel.

"The land near my home are a broken region of mountains, caves, and badlands where creatures from beyond reside. It is home to skree harpies, heket, and other deadly and vile creatures. Long ago the eastern borders were guarded by massive forces. Alas, between the three princes, only Prince Ahmtur provides forces to protect the border. The others believe no threat exists, though it would take only a day for them to see the truth."

Harpies and Hylek coming out of the eastern region has been a problem for long enough that "long ago" the three princes used to provide a large army to protect the border from their attempted migration into Elona.

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They seemed pretty entrenched, tbh. What with multiple tribal territories, structures, etc.

The only real tribal territories.structures were the two Hylek tribes fighting in the caves... and thats something that can start up ina year. Both Sparkfly Swamp, and Magus Stones where the Hylek where both had other creatures as the significant majority faction in those regions. The Hylek were comparatively more limited in appearances.

44 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

"The Crystal Desert didn't exist before the humans arrived." is what you said.

Yes, and we know the human Margonites were in the region before it became sea... your point being?

44 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So why would, without providing proof of retcon, my use of those passages be at all incorrect, while your use of those passages be correct?

I did provide proof of retcon, the wiki even marks it as a lore discrepancy from previous lore for it... what are you talking about?

44 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And in all of this, you continue to lack any comment on the most critical factor that in the Crystal Desert, where giants currently roam, are Giganticus Lupicus bones, which existed long before the Crystal Sea dried up, and therefore proof that those regions weren't indeed sea but habitable places.

And as you yourself previously commented, many of the bones we see in that region are clearly aquatic, showing it was water back then. Even still, the Great Giants lived 10,000 years ago, even if it was more land back then by the time they died and humans came in, it became more sea. Hell, with how tall the Great Giants seemingly were based on their bones they could have walked around the Crystal sea(based on the height of the mesas) without the need for boats. Normal giants have yet to show the technological level needed to actually inhabit a region of mostly water.

44 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Ironic, given every time I try to open up with a very civil discussion with you, and merely ask you to clarify when your posts are confusing, or provide links to counter-argue, while you've yet to provide any.

If it is so nonsensical to ask you why a source material supports your claim but not mine, or why you refuse to comment on a piece of counterargument, then what kind of discussion is sensible to you?

If you think what you are doing actually is that then you should maybe reevaluate the way you ask for things, because nothing of your previous post was asking for any of these things, or were done in this manner.

Making all of nothing strawmans like with the Mursaat lore tablet is not asking for sources, or clarification. Its just an attack. And you do this sort of thing constantly.

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If you think what you are doing actually is that then you should maybe reevaluate the way you ask for things, because nothing of your previous post was asking for any of these things, or were done in this manner.

Making all of nothing strawmans like with the Mursaat lore tablet is not asking for sources, or clarification. Its just an attack. And you do this sort of thing constantly.

I was going to comment on the rest but, honestly, why bother.

For someone who attacks me with claims of seeking you out, you sure do find a good way to reply to me on other sites with the same attitude you have here, unprovoked.

And I even looked at how you comment in other communities after you replied to me, and I am unsurprising to find that you act the exact same. Calling people out the moment they disagree with you, and making asinine associations while projecting your own response methods onto them.

I used to think that you just had some vendetta against me and tried to initiate each conversation with a fresh start, hoping against hope that you'd not devolve each discussion the same way. But I see it's not just me, since you've done this to drax here in this thread, and others unrelated to all this elsewhere. So... I'm done.

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On 10/16/2021 at 9:56 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

For someone who attacks me with claims of seeking you out, you sure do find a good way to reply to me on other sites with the same attitude you have here, unprovoked.

Nothing I said was unprovoked. You attacked me first every single instance using the same sort of tactics I described previously. You started it every single time.

On 10/16/2021 at 9:56 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And I even looked at how you comment in other communities after you replied to me, and I am unsurprising to find that you act the exact same. Calling people out the moment they disagree with you, and making asinine associations while projecting your own response methods onto them.

The only community you could possibly know me from besides here is Reddit, and I don't tend to have these issues over on Reddit(unless its a conversation with you) because they act better. Not only is this a deflationary attack, this also borders on stalking, which is very creepy.

On 10/16/2021 at 9:56 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I used to think that you just had some vendetta against me and tried to initiate each conversation with a fresh start, hoping against hope that you'd not devolve each discussion the same way. But I see it's not just me, since you've done this to drax here in this thread, and others unrelated to all this elsewhere. So... I'm done.

Drax and I were actually having a very civil conversation until you came along and started attacking me for no reason... again.

And If you were really done you wouldn't have bothered to respond in the first place. I don't know why you feel the need to, as you just admitted yourself, stalk me across multiple websites. But its creepy, and speaks of having some bizarre vendetta against me for some reason.

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