Do you think any of medium armor wearers will be a healer in EoD?

[Naxx.6203]

(in advance, sorry for my english)

So far each expansion have introduced one typicall, fully-fledged healer espec (HoT Druid, PoF Firebrand). We already know that first three especs we've seen are clearly focused around dmg with some support capabilities (harbringer). Next three especs which have been just revealad, based on what we see from trailers are again aimed at dmg, Catalist look like he may has some boon share and tanking option though.

Lets look at medium ones

• Ranger already has fully healing spec so there's no room for another one, 
• Enginner  has medkit which combined with scrapper mechanic, i suppose already fulfil role of healer
• With thief we already know that he will get scepter with leads me towards some kind of shadow magic usage and i assume that it could work as healer role BUT lets be real... there's no way anet would create a thief espec which main role is healing. It will probably be condi spec with some supportish mechanic, boon steal/share with allies. I just can't imagine that happening... and thief players would go INSANE

What do you guys think? Will we get new healer in EoD? Most importantly, do you think we need another fully-fledged healer in game?

 

[otto.5684]

Ranger and eng already have that. So surely not for them. Thief would be interesting with support spec. Dunno if Anet is willing to put the effort.

[RabbitUp.8294]

I wouldn't call FB a healer spec, it was part of the trio of FB, rene and scourge that were half condi dps half support. 

Only druid so far has been a pure heal support spec. Tempest is another one nowadays, but it launched as a dps spec. Chrono was also dedicated support but not a heal one.

To be fair, I don't think they'll ever do another druid because druid itself is already problematic with all the different buffs it brings to justify its existence. I would rather see some change to spirits and/or spotter first to open some room for another healer spec, since there are already good options that don't see play.

Edited September 17, 2021 by RabbitUp.8294

[Chemistral.7318]

First Anet have to remember that Medium Armor exists.  😛
(Literally all of the Light and Heavy Armor specs have been revealed now but not even one Medium Armor? A minor thing to get upset about in the long run but it sucks regardless.)

I don't think we'll get a healer as powerful as Druid but I think Thief will be the most supportive of the new specs between Medium Armor. (Just because we already have Druid and Scrapper, Thief doesn't have a support e-spec yet.) That said, personally I hope that support on Thief will be an offensive support as opposed to a defensive playstyle.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

6 hours ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

With thief we already know that he will get scepter with leads me towards some kind of shadow magic usage and i assume that it could work as healer role BUT lets be real... there's no way anet would create a thief espec which main role is healing. It will probably be condi spec with some supportish mechanic, boon steal/share with allies. I just can't imagine that happening... and thief players would go INSANE
 

Are you sure there's no way they would do it? Because I think there's a worryingly high chance that they might. The core thief traitlines don't support a healer playstyle at all (the only way to do it is just to spam shadowsteps on people to heal them lol), but ANet have shown already with some of the new specs that they don't care/don't know enough to make something that's designed to work well with core, so there is a really high risk that they create something that no one will ever use (unless core gets reworked to provide more reliable group healing).

 

To be fair though, I don't think thief is the only class that ANet doesn't understand. Their attempts to try and force Scrapper to be a support, and the comments made surrounding that suggest they are unaware that Scrapper punishes you for playing anything other than Power DPS on it (because of impact savant) imply to me that they're not going to give Engineer a support-y spec, but who knows.

[RabbitUp.8294]

3 hours ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

Are you sure there's no way they would do it? Because I think there's a worryingly high chance that they might. The core thief traitlines don't support a healer playstyle at all (the only way to do it is just to spam shadowsteps on people to heal them lol), but ANet have shown already with some of the new specs that they don't care/don't know enough to make something that's designed to work well with core, so there is a really high risk that they create something that no one will ever use (unless core gets reworked to provide more reliable group healing).

 

To be fair though, I don't think thief is the only class that ANet doesn't understand. Their attempts to try and force Scrapper to be a support, and the comments made surrounding that suggest they are unaware that Scrapper punishes you for playing anything other than Power DPS on it (because of impact savant) imply to me that they're not going to give Engineer a support-y spec, but who knows.

But scrapper has been a meta support in wvw, and quickness support is good in pve but overshadowed by the absurdity that is FB. 

[ThrakathNar.4537]

16 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

But scrapper has been a meta support in wvw, and quickness support is good in pve but overshadowed by the absurdity that is FB. 

That is what ANet think yes, but it's misleading as to what the facts of the matter are.

 

Firstly, quickness scrapper was only created in May of this year, so from 2015 to May 2021, that just wasn't a build. The only quickness share engineer had was the toss elixir U (a core skill, worth pointing out), and that was changed to be AoE superspeed later anyway.

 

Anyway, the reason why Scrapper is used as a support is not because Scrapper is a support, it's because Scrapper provides unique utility while utilising the core supportive power of Engineer. All of the actual support power on the build comes from core skills and utilities. Just try playing support Scrapper without medkit or purity of purpose, you will not provide any healing or any boons, and it would probably be more useful to bring a Druid for healing. However, what scrapper does bring that core cannot is AoE superspeed and stealth. It's really important to note that this utility could be provided by a DPS scrapper instead, but because of role compression you want your healer to do as many things as possible.

 

Also, if Scrapper is a support, how do you explain Impact Savant? You know, the minor grandmaster trait that you're forced into when taking the traitline:

"A percentage of the strike damage you deal is converted into barrier. Your vitality is reduced. "

If you play Scrapper as a support, this is just a nerf. If you play Scrapper as a Power DPS, this is a huge buff and makes you immortal in PvE.

Comparing this to the same slot on Druid and Firebrand respectively:

"Increase outgoing healing to other allies whenever you heal an ally besides yourself." (Obviously a support spec)

"Gain increased attributes while affected by quickness. " (This buffs vitality, condition damage, and healing power, it's clearly giving the option to play a healer)

 

If they want to make Scrapper into a support that's fine, but they need to do a significant rework to the entire traitline so that it's actually built to, you know, support.

[RabbitUp.8294]

4 minutes ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

That is what ANet think yes, but it's misleading as to what the facts of the matter are.

 

Firstly, quickness scrapper was only created in May of this year, so from 2015 to May 2021, that just wasn't a build. The only quickness share engineer had was the toss elixir U (a core skill, worth pointing out), and that was changed to be AoE superspeed later anyway.

 

Anyway, the reason why Scrapper is used as a support is not because Scrapper is a support, it's because Scrapper provides unique utility while utilising the core supportive power of Engineer. All of the actual support power on the build comes from core skills and utilities. Just try playing support Scrapper without medkit or purity of purpose, you will not provide any healing or any boons, and it would probably be more useful to bring a Druid for healing. However, what scrapper does bring that core cannot is AoE superspeed and stealth. It's really important to note that this utility could be provided by a DPS scrapper instead, but because of role compression you want your healer to do as many things as possible.

 

Also, if Scrapper is a support, how do you explain Impact Savant? You know, the minor grandmaster trait that you're forced into when taking the traitline:

"A percentage of the strike damage you deal is converted into barrier. Your vitality is reduced. "

If you play Scrapper as a support, this is just a nerf. If you play Scrapper as a Power DPS, this is a huge buff and makes you immortal in PvE.

Comparing this to the same slot on Druid and Firebrand respectively:

"Increase outgoing healing to other allies whenever you heal an ally besides yourself." (Obviously a support spec)

"Gain increased attributes while affected by quickness. " (This buffs vitality, condition damage, and healing power, it's clearly giving the option to play a healer)

 

If they want to make Scrapper into a support that's fine, but they need to do a significant rework to the entire traitline so that it's actually built to, you know, support.

Firebrand uses aspects of the core class to support, too. I don't see why you would consider that a bad thing.

Scrapper wells are excellent support skills, one minor trait doesn't change that. Otherwise, you would see support holo just as much if it was purely a core engi thing.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

2 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Firebrand uses aspects of the core class to support, too. I don't see why you would consider that a bad thing.

Scrapper wells are excellent support skills, one minor trait doesn't change that. Otherwise, you would see support holo just as much if it was purely a core engi thing.

Firebrand uses aspects of the core class, but Support Scrapper is entirely reliant on it. If you disable all the core stuff, firebrand still has Tomes for healing and a lot of boons, and consistent aegis, stability, quickness, and might from your mantras. Scrapper meanwhile loses all of its healing, and its biggest source of boon output in WvW (Purity of Purpose).

 

Wells are strong, but most of what they bring is utility focused, and something that could easily be achieved on a DPS scrapper build. Stealth, Superspeed, Damage mitigation, and Projetile block don't scale with healing power or concentration at all. The only thing that you could say is pure support is purge gyro.

 

You're also missing the point with Impact Savant, the design is what is important. If you were shown that trait alone, and told it was a mandatory part of the traitline, what would be your guess as to the role of the spec? Because without a doubt it is meant to be Power DPS. You are rewarded for playing the traitline as Power DPS, and punished for playing the traitline as anything else, if that doesn't tell you how Scrapper was clearly meant to be played, then I don't know what to say.

[RabbitUp.8294]

2 hours ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

You're also missing the point with Impact Savant, the design is what is important. If you were shown that trait alone, and told it was a mandatory part of the traitline, what would be your guess as to the role of the spec? Because without a doubt it is meant to be Power DPS. You are rewarded for playing the traitline as Power DPS, and punished for playing the traitline as anything else, if that doesn't tell you how Scrapper was clearly meant to be played, then I don't know what to say.

Impact Savant is a remnant of the multiple identity changes of scrapper. I won't argue that scrapper was not launched as a support spec. It was advertised as a bruiser spec, and Impact Savant was not even there. Instead you had more stun/daze duration, which doesn't say power dps, but a focus on lockdown.

Then they started adding tradeoffs to elite specs and scrapper got reduced vitality in exchange for constant barriers, to further promote the bruiser playstyle. It was the gyro into wells rework and the quickness changes that finally established the support identity.

Also, Purity of Purpose has been in the game for quite a while. It wasn't until the scrapper changes that all the pieces clicked together and you could make a proper build out of it.

Edited September 17, 2021 by RabbitUp.8294

[Roda.7468]

I'm expecting thief to bring a lot of support this round

[ThrakathNar.4537]

6 hours ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Impact Savant is a remnant of the multiple identity changes of scrapper. I won't argue that scrapper was not launched as a support spec. It was advertised as a bruiser spec, and Impact Savant was not even there. Instead you had more stun/daze duration, which doesn't say power dps, but a focus on lockdown.

Then they started adding tradeoffs to elite specs and scrapper got reduced vitality in exchange for constant barriers, to further promote the bruiser playstyle. It was the gyro into wells rework and the quickness changes that finally established the support identity.

Also, Purity of Purpose has been in the game for quite a while. It wasn't until the scrapper changes that all the pieces clicked together and you could make a proper build out of it.

I think we might have come to some common ground here. If they want to make Scrapper into a support then they certainly can, but they should probably finish the process of reworking traits. While they're at it, it would also make sense for them to change the stats on Rune of the Scrapper, because currently it's +power +toughness (compared to the +power +vitality of Holosmith).

 

Although we have slightly drifted off topic, so I will add this - Scourge provided a hybrid condi/support spec for necro, but Harbinger also provides a boon support role with quickness share, so there is potential precedent for a class to get two hybrid support specs.