Engineer Elite Specialization Prediction & Speculation Discussion

[ThrakathNar.4537]

2 hours ago, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

They work on Necromancer. They do work, people just wine. That's my conclusion

Ironically though, people complain about minionmancer in PvP specifically because minions work in that gamemode. And that's only one gamemode. In WvW summons are bad because they will just get cleaved out easily by an enemy zerg, and in high level PvE summoned minions have horrible DPS contributions, because pet stats don't scale off player gear stats.

 

The thing is though - whether or not minions are theoretically viable is besides the point. People in game (and on the forums) hate fighting AI mechanics on the principle that it is AI, and requires less engagement from the enemy. There's a fresh post every week on the PvP subforums complaining about ranger pets or necro minions, and the complaints usually centre on the fact that minions are inherently passive gameplay, and so any AI build sooner or later is destined to be nerfed.

 

It's also worth noting that in one of the recent preview patch notes, the devs had this to say while nerfing minionmancer:
"from a balance philosophy point of view we don't want AI-heavy builds to be a pillar of the PvP meta."
(This seems to have been removed from the final release notes, but can be found here: https://youtu.be/B5QIkXahi_M?t=942 )

 

If the devs are going to come out explicitly and say that they don't want minions to be good in one of the three gamemodes, why would they ever design an elite spec to be AI heavy? By their own philosophy it's going to be bad in at least a third of the game.

 

[SeTect.5918]

4 hours ago, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

They work on Necromancer. They do work, people just wine. That's my conclusion

The only thing where this works on necromancer in pve is open world soloing. No group content accepts minions of necro. I never saw minions in fractals or any other group. Also on scourge they r pretty ineffective because you deal more damage without them AND is still tanky without them.

And since maybe most of us want to also play this class in instanced content....we dont want minions. However there are still people that support minions...for what reason ever...roleplayin whatever...:

4 hours ago, Random Wax Orc.7695 said:

A variation of an Agent Smith elite. 😎

...or still thinking AI in gw2 is a good idea like you ( @MatyrGustav.6210) do...but fact is that literally no group says "Sure come in" to a minionmancer.

Minions are only good in taking damage for you, but nothing else. Ranger pets dealing nearly no damage. Such as necro minions. If you want minions, fine. Please dont suggest them on f1,f2,f3,f4,f5 or weapon skills. Only on utility. I want still have the chance to play without them...to do damage and being useful in group content.

Edited October 16, 2021 by SeTect.5918
Making something clear

[Random Wax Orc.7695]

22 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

...or still thinking AI in gw2 is a good idea like you do...

Do not presume to speak for me.  I was making a joke about taking character control away from other players.  The worst part of GW2 imho is the shear amount of things that block/interrupt players from playing/controlling their own character. 🛑

[SeTect.5918]

1 hour ago, Random Wax Orc.7695 said:

Do not presume to speak for me.  I was making a joke about taking character control away from other players.  The worst part of GW2 imho is the shear amount of things that block/interrupt players from playing/controlling their own character. 🛑

Oh i think u missunderstand me here, i meant the one that i quoted before. I am sorry, i ll edit my post to make that clear. I just meant u with the roleplaying part. Never was my intention to speak for u.

Edited.

Edited October 16, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[MatyrGustav.6210]

1 hour ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

Ironically though, people complain about minionmancer in PvP specifically because minions work in that gamemode. And that's only one gamemode. In WvW summons are bad because they will just get cleaved out easily by an enemy zerg, and in high level PvE summoned minions have horrible DPS contributions, because pet stats don't scale off player gear stats.

 

The thing is though - whether or not minions are theoretically viable is besides the point. People in game (and on the forums) hate fighting AI mechanics on the principle that it is AI, and requires less engagement from the enemy. There's a fresh post every week on the PvP subforums complaining about ranger pets or necro minions, and the complaints usually centre on the fact that minions are inherently passive gameplay, and so any AI build sooner or later is destined to be nerfed.

 

It's also worth noting that in one of the recent preview patch notes, the devs had this to say while nerfing minionmancer:
"from a balance philosophy point of view we don't want AI-heavy builds to be a pillar of the PvP meta."
(This seems to have been removed from the final release notes, but can be found here: https://youtu.be/B5QIkXahi_M?t=942 )

 

If the devs are going to come out explicitly and say that they don't want minions to be good in one of the three gamemodes, why would they ever design an elite spec to be AI heavy? By their own philosophy it's going to be bad in at least a third of the game.

 

 

A command based minion would work. Make it less focused on ai.

 

There is a way. Mechromancer and Engineer with bots are a staple to engineer in most games. Anet should figure it out. 

 

a few ideas 

 

F5 could summon the mech

It will only auto attack an enemy you mark

While summoned all utility skills are replaced with mech attacks. its simple

[SeTect.5918]

2 minutes ago, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

 

A command based minion would work. Make it less focused on ai.

 

There is a way. Mechromancer and Engineer with bots are a staple to engineer in most games. Anet should figure it out. 

 

a few ideas 

 

F5 could summon the mech

It will only auto attack an enemy you mark

While summoned all utility skills are replaced with mech attacks. its simple

THIS could work.

But atm we have...i think...2 classes that have a minion or pet. Necro and Ranger. Ranger has 1 skill that can control attacks of the pet. Thats...F2? With a cooldown of 20 sec or sth like that. Command skills are more like sth....ur pet gets XX and you get XX.

Minions are nearly not gettin controlled at all.

A powerful single mech/golem (that is something unique and not reverted asura golems) which can get controlled with multiple attacks that are maybe on utility and not on f1-f4 (so you can choose urself which ones you play) could work and i would maybe actually like it.

I just dont like the idea that we could maybe get a simple asura golem or just 1 skill to control its attacks or that its going to be nerfed to hell in pve, so it does no dmg...Lets say i am carefully. A spec without a pet/minion or whatever is more likely to be viable.
I am mostly running fractals and open world soloing bosses. And sometimes WvW.
While in fractals minions are fully a no-go, in soloing they are really good. And in WvW they r possible to use in roaming but get melted away in zergs.
So i am not fully against it. But I would want nearly full control of that golem. Which would also not make it a fully AI, more like a half AI since i have most control over it, which would make it maybe not fully nerfed away in case of damage...hopefully.

Hope I could explain why I am a bit afraid by it but also would maybe somehow like it.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

40 minutes ago, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

 

A command based minion would work. Make it less focused on ai.

 

There is a way. Mechromancer and Engineer with bots are a staple to engineer in most games. Anet should figure it out. 

 

a few ideas 

 

F5 could summon the mech

It will only auto attack an enemy you mark

While summoned all utility skills are replaced with mech attacks. its simple

Except ranger pet is a command based minion, but that still garners a lot of complaints. You press the f1 to "mark" an enemy, effectively, and you press the f2 to do a strong attack. That doesn't fix a lot of the other issues people have with ranger pets on principle:

- They still do damage to your enemy when you are denying LoS.

- They can still attack when you are kiting/pressured, allowing you to peel for yourself with ease.

- They are a separate entity, which means your opponent has to keep track of two sets of animations in a 1v1, while you have to keep track of only one.

 

And anyway - if A-Net could fix AI and make it engaging/require active play, then why should they do that on a new elite spec with a new mechanic instead of just going and making turrets better? They shouldn't. A pet-like/minion mechanic shouldn't even be considered as an option for an engineer elite spec until they make the core utils of turrets all good.

Edited October 16, 2021 by ThrakathNar.4537

[MatyrGustav.6210]

13 minutes ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

Except ranger pet is a command based minion, but that still garners a lot of complaints. You press the f1 to "mark" an enemy, effectively, and you press the f2 to do a strong attack. That doesn't fix a lot of the other issues people have with ranger pets on principle:

- They still do damage to your enemy when you are denying LoS.

- They can still attack when you are kiting/pressured, allowing you to peel for yourself with ease.

- They are a separate entity, which means your opponent has to keep track of two sets of animations in a 1v1, while you have to keep track of only one.

 

And anyway - if A-Net could fix AI and make it engaging/require active play, then why should they do that on a new elite spec with a new mechanic instead of just going and making turrets better? They shouldn't. A pet-like/minion mechanic shouldn't even be considered as an option for an engineer elite spec until they make the core utils of turrets all good.

 

Well thats just how it is. If a ranger has a pet the other person has to keep track of 2 entities. Thats ok 👌. for balancing the ranger should have less health or defense. 

 

Making the core utilities good is subjective. I personally think they are good. All engineer utilities are situational . Like everyone wants skills to work in the way they invision them to work. The problem is everyone has a different vision. 

not that it pertains to this, but ive always felt like necro/reaper shroud was OP because you cant get health damage while active. I wonder if necro/reaper are the only ones not complaining about ranger pet. lol

Edited October 16, 2021 by MatyrGustav.6210

[draxynnic.3719]

I think the reason why necromancer minions are a little more accepted than turrets is that necromancer minions still require the necromancer to be fairly close to the action, and most minions are in fact melee. Turrets, however, allowed for a significant ability to add pressure to an area where the turrets are in a difficult-to-reach spot, and the engineer is somewhere else entirely.

 

As an example, I've played games on Khylo as a roamer soulbeast where I'd run through the teamfight at mid while travelling from home to far or vice versa, drop an Entangle and a couple of fields into the fight, and just keep going. This could sometimes have a decisive impact on mid without substantially increasing the time it takes to travel between the nodes I really cared about. A turret engineer, in the days when they were relevant, could place turrets somewhere where they could shoot into the teamfight but won't get destroyed by AoE, while the engineer themselves could be capping a different point, operating trebuchet, or just somewhere far away avoiding combat.

 

And then there's the situation where you approach a point and it's covered by turrets, but the engineer isn't visible. Are they off doing something else, or are the hiding somewhere nearby ready to drop a supply crate on your head if you engage the turrets? You don't know unless their icon is somewhere else on the map...and even then, enough turrets might still deter some of the squishier roaming builds from attempting a decap.

 

2 hours ago, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

 

Well thats just how it is. If a ranger has a pet the other person has to keep track of 2 entities. Thats ok 👌. for balancing the ranger should have less health or defense. 

 

Making the core utilities good is subjective. I personally think they are good. All engineer utilities are situational . Like everyone wants skills to work in the way they invision them to work. The problem is everyone has a different vision. 

not that it pertains to this, but ive always felt like necro/reaper shroud was OP because you cant get health damage while active. I wonder if necro/reaper are the only ones not complaining about ranger pet. lol

How many situations call for turrets apart from healing turret or the supply create to be used nowadays? (No, power DPS builds with rifle turret dont count, they have it on the bar for the toolbelt skill, and once the fight starts actually deploying the turret is often a DPS loss.)

 

The point @ThrakathNar.4537 made is a good one. If ArenaNet wants engineers using AI deployables to be a thing, they should focus on making the ones they already have actually functional in solo PvE at least, to roughly the level of necromancer minions (note that I say minions and not minion masters - there are plenty of necromancer builds that go for a couple of minions rather than full MM). It's a waste of resources to make an AI-focused spec when the AI options they already have aren't working.

[Bomboed.5697]

2 hours ago, MatyrGustav.6210 said:

Making the core utilities good is subjective. I personally think they are good.

You are wrong. Almost half of utilities (mostly turrets and gadgets) are never used in any gamemode.

[Kodama.6453]

5 hours ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

You are wrong. Almost half of utilities (mostly turrets and gadgets) are never used in any gamemode.

Imagine trying to justify turrets as something "good", lmao.

Rifle turret does literally nothing but dealing damage to 1 enemy over time. It deals roughly 500 damage every 2 seconds. Which means 250 dps flat... not scaling with your stats, not scaling with boons, nothing. Just 250 damage per second.

This is a skill which just has damage as it's only purpose and it deals less damage than other skills which are primarily support focused. It should be pretty obvious for everyone why this is wrong.

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Bomboed.5697]

5 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Imagine trying to justify turrets as something "good", lmao.

Rifle turret does literally nothing but dealing damage to 1 enemy over time. It deals roughly 500 damage every 2 seconds. Which means 250 dps flat... not scaling with your stats, not scaling with boons, nothing. Just 250 damage per second.

This is a skill which just has damage as it's only purpose and it deals less damage than other skills which are primarily support focused. It should be pretty obvious for everyone why this is wrong.

 

ANET just should rework Turrets form "pets" to wells. Just like gyros. But if gyros are mobile wells that stick to players, turrets could be a classic ground-target wells. Turret overload spells could be simply integrated into well effects in form of powerful effect on the end of duration (like chrono's wells) or on the deployment.
Just rework turrets to be an area effects, that scales well, instead of being a pet with no scale and terrible AI.

[Kodama.6453]

12 minutes ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

ANET just should rework Turrets form "pets" to wells. Just like gyros. But if gyros are mobile wells that stick to players, turrets could be a classic ground-target wells. Turret overload spells could be simply integrated into well effects in form of powerful effect on the end of duration (like chrono's wells) or on the deployment.
Just rework turrets to be an area effects, that scales well, instead of being a pet with no scale and terrible AI.

Wouldn't personally pick wells to avoid having the same tag for them and gyros, but reworking them into another skill category would be great, yeah.

I would use the spirit weapon mechanic from guardian. Basically turrets just become AoE damaging abilities, the turret itself is no longer an attackable entity, but just a fancy animation.

Could also have some interesting shapes, like rifle turret dealing ticking power damage in a cone shaped area for example.

[Bomboed.5697]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I would use the spirit weapon mechanic from guardian. Basically turrets just become AoE damaging abilities, the turret itself is no longer an attackable entity, but just a fancy animation.

Yep, something like this.
 

 

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Wouldn't personally pick wells to avoid having the same tag for them and gyros, but reworking them into another skill category would be great, yeah.

I think it is better to turn turrets into wells because they are stationary and all wells are stationary.
While gyros should be categorized as gyros.

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Yep, something like this.
 

 

I think it is better to turn turrets into wells because they are stationary and all wells are stationary.
While gyros should be categorized as gyros.

I prefer to keep gyros as wells, because of stuff like the rune of the chronomancer, which fits gyros better, since applying quickness is one theme attached to them now.

I also think we should avoid constantly reclassifying gyros back and forth.

That they are mobile is just the unique twist of gyros as wells. Anet tends to change up the skill mechanic for elite specs a bit. Like how chronomancer wells always have 3 ticks with the last one having a more powerful effect. 

And making turrets into spirit weapons also works mechanically, since spirit weapons also are stationary effects. Maybe they can add the twist to them that turrets explode with a blast finisher once they have finished their attack?

[Bomboed.5697]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I prefer to keep gyros as wells, because of stuff like the rune of the chronomancer, which fits gyros better, since applying quickness is one theme attached to them now.

I also think we should avoid constantly reclassifying gyros back and forth.

That they are mobile is just the unique twist of gyros as wells. Anet tends to change up the skill mechanic for elite specs a bit. Like how chronomancer wells always have 3 ticks with the last one having a more powerful effect. 

And making turrets into spirit weapons also works mechanically, since spirit weapons also are stationary effects. Maybe they can add the twist to them that turrets explode with a blast finisher once they have finished their attack?

Just name them Devices instead of Spirit weapons. For thematic reasons.

[draxynnic.3719]

21 hours ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Just name them Devices instead of Spirit weapons. For thematic reasons.

Armaments, perhaps, depending on what Rune of the Bladesworn does?

 

Having them behave similarly to Renegede summons could also work. Fire off a barrage of attacks and then detonate automatically.

[Joxer.6024]

kinda looks like its a morph of some sort of the new skill/weapon, much like Bladesworn, pistol turns into the skill type of deal. Not feeling any sort of minion, Golem or robovac....  😉

[draxynnic.3719]

It somewhat amazes me how many people seem to be thinking that the Bladesworn thing of showing a profession mechanic rather than the weapon is being repeated. It happened with the thief silhouette, and now it seems to be happening here.

 

To be fair, it's not impossible - but with bladesworn, we could clearly see that it wasn't a pistol. With the thief and engineer elites, the silhouettes fit scepter and mace respectively, and those are the weapons we're expecting due to the box mining. It's overwhelmingly more likely that we're looking at mace here, however strange the pose is.