Credits where credits due: CATALYST IS AWESOME!

[James Saulot.4851]

51 minutes ago, Ausar.9542 said:

yeah the early QQ was uncalled for honestly. 

It was funny. It won't stop either, but this seems to happen with every expansion where people get their hopes up about what they expect and want. Only to be disappointed, and hilariously so. Again.

[BlackBeard.2873]

14 minutes ago, Avead.5760 said:

why would you play tempest in any game mode now? catalyst can support better with quickness and also aura share ?!?

Which is exactly why nobody wanted a melee or melee+mid-range spec (which is still about the same range that dagger has).

This feels like it competes directly with tempest for aurashare support specs and/or weaver for bruiser roles.

[fuzzyp.6295]

3 minutes ago, SuchosCZ.2167 said:

It will work in PvP, the AoE is exactly the size of points. In WvW its unusable...Kinda hoped when i saw the AoE, that there will be trait to make it move with you, but no...there is "+50% effectivness" on spell you will not be able to use at all in WvW instead xD

It will likely still have use in WvW for close range fights in choke points or on nodes. Defending a camp or assaulting a tower where a zerg is holding back at the lords are two examples. Great for small scale terrorist denial, imo. Although with Staff in mind, the F5 might just become another pulsing fire AoE to drop on foes.

[Naxos.2503]

The trailers dont show enough to get a good grasp, luckily these presentations do much to alleviate misconceptions. As it is, I think those could work fairly well, the hammer being dual based on elements is more interesting than if it was either all range, or all melee, so that's a plus

[BlackBeard.2873]

2 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

It will likely still have use in WvW for close range fights in choke points or on nodes. Defending a camp or assaulting a tower where a zerg is holding back at the lords are two examples. Great for small scale terrorist denial, imo. Although with Staff in mind, the F5 might just become another pulsing fire AoE to drop on foes.

 

The damage was low - this field seems like it has two uses:

 If DPS: you just use it as an additional bit of extra free damage

If support: you drop it on your team for the buffs.

In PvE, they are stacked so you just get both.

[fuzzyp.6295]

1 minute ago, BlackBeard.2873 said:

Which is exactly why nobody wanted a melee or melee+mid-range spec (which is still about the same range that dagger has).

This feels like it competes directly with tempest for aurashare support specs and/or weaver for bruiser roles.

Weaver is not and has never been a bruiser class, this is why people were campagining for the barrier bug to remain in game. It was a melee elementalist, high risk high reward but still squishy even under the best circumstances. The only non-squishy Weavers were those built full trailblazer, but any class can be a 'bruiser' under those circumstances.

Tempest is probably going to still be played because it really looks like Catalyst is not going to syngerize well with Water. There are a lot of defensive and boon based add ons for Catalyst, but they are overwhelming selfish. If you decide to run Water to share you auras, you'll lose out on the powerful supportive Overloads and be hitting like a wet noodle. That said, Tempest should probably get some buffs to help it stand out, perhaps now would be the time to revisit what boons on Auras we get.

[BlackBeard.2873]

2 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

Weaver is not and has never been a bruiser class, this is why people were campagining for the barrier bug to remain in game. It was a melee elementalist, high risk high reward but still squishy even under the best circumstances. The only non-squishy Weavers were those built full trailblazer, but any class can be a 'bruiser' under those circumstances.

Tempest is probably going to still be played because it really looks like Catalyst is not going to syngerize well with Water. There are a lot of defensive and boon based add ons for Catalyst, but they are overwhelming selfish. If you decide to run Water to share you auras, you'll lose out on the powerful supportive Overloads and be hitting like a wet noodle. That said, Tempest should probably get some buffs to help it stand out, perhaps now would be the time to revisit what boons on Auras we get.

In PvP and WvW, weaver is mostly played as a bruiser, spamming evades, heals, and barrier as much as possible. This doesn't seem to have as many evades, but has some additional block to go on top of the passive boons you will get.

In PvE, it will still feel quite similar to either tempest or weaver, because 90% of people spec for DPS (and all of these specs will be about as squishy as one another) and the other 10% will be support - which this does potentially better than tempest thanks to sharing quickness ontop of things like prot and might.

[fuzzyp.6295]

Just now, BlackBeard.2873 said:

In PvP and WvW, weaver is mostly played as a bruiser, spamming evades, heals, and barrier as much as possible. This doesn't seem to have as many evades, but has some additional block to go on top of the passive boons you will get.

In PvE, it will still feel quite similar to either tempest or weaver, because 90% of people spec for DPS (and all of these specs will be about as squishy as one another) and the other 10% will be support - which this does potentially better than tempest thanks to sharing quickness ontop of things like prot and might.

Evades, Heals and Barriers are not what make a class a Bruiser. Those are all hallmarks of what to expect on a glass spec. Even with all those Heals and Barrier spam, Weaver was still very vulnerable to high bursts damage if they got caught. Bruiser classes are about blocking and absorbing damage, controlling the fight and the area it takes place in. They are more about standing and taking damage as opposed to constant evades. Compare a Glass Weaver to a Glass Scrapper and ask yourself which of them would probably survive longer. When a class is considered Bruiser because of its armor selection, then it is not a Bruiser.

Catalyst looks like it is being set up to be a much more baseline defensive class than Weaver ever was with its selfish bonuses to defense. The AoEs support this: you want to stay close to them to make sure you get the full effect of being a more bunker heavy spec.

[BlackBeard.2873]

4 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

Evades, Heals and Barriers are not what make a class a Bruiser. Those are all hallmarks of what to expect on a glass spec. Even with all those Heals and Barrier spam, Weaver was still very vulnerable to high bursts damage if they got caught. Bruiser classes are about blocking and absorbing damage, controlling the fight and the area it takes place in. They are more about standing and taking damage as opposed to constant evades. Compare a Glass Weaver to a Glass Scrapper and ask yourself which of them would probably survive longer. When a class is considered Bruiser because of its armor selection, then it is not a Bruiser.

Catalyst looks like it is being set up to be a much more baseline defensive class than Weaver ever was with its selfish bonuses to defense. The AoEs support this: you want to stay close to them to make sure you get the full effect of being a more bunker heavy spec.

Theory vs. reality. In theory what you are saying is true.

In reality, weaver is played in pvp and wvw as a tanky side-node bruiser. It does that through a combo of evades + prot + heals and wins through out-sustaining its opponent. Bruiser specs are pretty much entirely about winning a long, sustained damage race. Bruiser doesn't mean being able to facetank, it just means it wins in sustained fights that get drawn out for quite a while.

If you are saying that Catalyst is less selfish and will be a frontline support style role, you are describing exactly the role that tempest fills for the most part.

Edited September 17, 2021 by BlackBeard.2873
Clarfication of what a bruiser is.

[fuzzyp.6295]

6 minutes ago, BlackBeard.2873 said:

Theory vs. reality. In theory what you are saying is true.

 

In reality, weaver is played in pvp and wvw as a tanky side-node bruiser. It does that through a combo of evades + prot + heals and wins through out-sustaining its opponent. Bruiser specs are pretty much entirely about winning a long, sustained damage race.

By that definition, Elementalist has always been a Bruiser in PvP since its always been about sustaining through fights as opposed to finishing quickly. I dunno many who'd call D/D Core Ele a Bruiser. Sustaining in a fight in one thing, Bruisers are also about being to take damage and still be left standing.

Regardless to your original point, where Catalyst now lets Elementalist differ is players don't need to play tanky to get the defense. It allows Catalysts to experiment with new armor types that were otherwises too weak to be used on other classes like Weaver. It's freeing up armor options for Elementalists now for the first time in 9 years  without it being a heavy handicap. Its a widely exciting prospect.

Catalyst probably competes more against Tempest than Weaver.

Edited September 17, 2021 by fuzzyp.6295

[iKeostuKen.2738]

Aside from the empowerment traits, catalyst doesnt seem like much of a bruiser.  Unless I'm missing something. 

[Avead.5760]

Don't get me wrong it looks amazing its just that it is a complete upgrade over core with no drawbacks and it competes with the previous specs aswell

[AzuritaBlues.3206]

Guy, this spec is everything I've wanted since I've returned to the game.

It rewards both D/D and Staff gameplay SO MUCH. Stability, Quickness, Fury, the +%stat on aura use, it's clear how they've built for Catalyst whith the last balance patches. Celestial is going to be beast and combo fields are extremely relevant to this gameplay. It brings me joy ❤️ Old D/D vibes all over it!

PLUS THE UNBLOCKABLE GUYS!!!

and the Water Augment that will make staff's AoE hard hitters again

The stab on auras could def be a pain to tempest role, but I think tempest will still be better at overall group sustain with all the burst healing and vigor output.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I'm not very good in oral English, can someone explain me the F5 - energy - aoe thing ?

 

A bit sad we're still stuck with bleeding-burning-vulnerability-chill ... we don't even have the poison in the smoke poison field.

Traits seem a bit poorly designed for now, just stack of some %X charges.  But weapon skills and the aoe thing are impressive, even if i'm a bit puzzled on the support aspect, it just seems healing and some boons but we can't share the %X charges ?

[BlackBeard.2873]

2 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

By that definition, Elementalist has always been a Bruiser in PvP since its always been about sustaining through fights as opposed to finishing quickly. I dunno many who'd call D/D Core Ele a Bruiser. Sustaining in a fight in one thing, Bruisers are also about being to take damage and still be left standing.

Regardless to your original point, where Catalyst now lets Elementalist differ is players don't need to play tanky to get the defense. It allows Catalysts to experiment with new armor types that were otherwises too weak to be used on other classes like Weaver. It's freeing up armor options for Elementalists now for the first time in 9 years  without it being a heavy handicap. Its a widely exciting prospect.

Catalyst probably competes more against Tempest than Weaver.

Yea, ele has been a sidenode bruiser since forever in pvp. Most pvp-ers will tell you that.

This class does seem designed in PvE for celestial, by abusing the +20% stats on top of the superior stat totals of celestial to start.

 

Just now, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

I'm not very good in oral English, can someone explain me the F5 - energy - aoe thing ?

 

A bit sad we're still stuck with bleeding-burning-vulnerability-chill ... we don't even have the poison in the smoke poison field.

Traits seem a bit poorly designed for now, just stack of some %X charges.  But weapon skills and the aoe thing are impressive, even if i'm a bit puzzled on the support aspect, it just seems healing and some boons but we can't share the %X charges ?

You pulse out all kinds of boons from your well, the biggest being quickness.

[fuzzyp.6295]

1 minute ago, BlackBeard.2873 said:

Yea, ele has been a sidenode bruiser since forever in pvp. Most pvp-ers will tell you that.

This class does seem designed in PvE for celestial, by abusing the +20% stats on top of the superior stat totals of celestial to start.

I suppose we just have widely different opinions on what a Bruiser is. No one in my community of competitive players have ever called any Elementalist a bruiser.

Catalyst is going to be min-max'ed in PvE like any class, and I don't really think Celestial is going to find any more use in PvE than it is today.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

3 minutes ago, BlackBeard.2873 said:

You pulse out all kinds of boons from your well, the biggest being quickness.

 

It consume energy or your need the 30/30 to cast it ?

We can re-target it after the cast ? It stops by itself automatically or we can stop it manually ?

 

[TheGrimoire.4039]

Just now, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

It consume energy or your need the 30/30 to cast it ?

We can re-target it after the cast ? It stops by itself automatically or we can stop it manually ?

 

It consumes energy, so you need to have some energy to cast it. IIRC, it drains 2 energy/second, with a maximum energy of 30 points.

 

We can't re-target it after the cast. If you press the F5 button again it ends the sphere AoE and you lose all energy; and yes, you can stop it manually, but it has a 15 seconds cooldown.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

6 minutes ago, TheGrimoire.4039 said:

It consumes energy, so you need to have some energy to cast it. IIRC, it drains 2 energy/second, with a maximum energy of 30 points.

 

We can't re-target it after the cast. If you press the F5 button again it ends the sphere AoE and you lose all energy; and yes, you can stop it manually, but it has a 15 seconds cooldown.

 

 

Ah okai. So it's not that convenient if we want to share quickness etc, unless if we can maintain the aoe.
Plus I've watched the traits again, we only share boons; no buff ... Edit, unless if we can share "Empowering auras" and "hardened auras" ( 1-1-x) !?

Edited September 17, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[BlackBeard.2873]

Just now, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

 

Ah okai. So it's not that convenient if we want to share quickness etc, unless if we can maintain the aoe.
Plus I've watched the traits again, we only share boons; no buff ...

 

Also, from the support-standpoint, this is turbo-tempest. Every combo (not just blast finishers) give you an aura with a 10s ICD pet attunement. Think about that for a minute, even projectile, leap, AND blast finishers, have it combo and you get an aura, including shocking aura and magnetic aura.

Pair that with water for aura-share and either earth for prot on aura, fire for cleanse on aura (+ a fire aura every time you swap into fire), or arcana for blast on-evade in earth - you can see how that gets kinda crazy.

The biggest strength of tempest is sharing shocking and magnetic auras (frost is good too) - this spec does that, but BETTER with the right weapon sets and utils. Even arcane blast and arcane wave become defensive skills b/c pushing them through a field gives you another combo, so you time it to proc in air and you get yourself high uptime on shocking aura.

D/D probably works best with this spec due to the short-CD fire field, but staff has plenty of fields and finishers. The skill-ceiling is very high, but if you work at it you can combo your fields to make sure you get most auras with high uptime.

 

All that sounds fun to build, but once again...why take tempest now?

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

27 minutes ago, BlackBeard.2873 said:

 

Also, from the support-standpoint, this is turbo-tempest. Every combo (not just blast finishers) give you an aura with a 10s ICD pet attunement. Think about that for a minute, even projectile, leap, AND blast finishers, have it combo and you get an aura, including shocking aura and magnetic aura.

Pair that with water for aura-share and either earth for prot on aura, fire for cleanse on aura (+ a fire aura every time you swap into fire), or arcana for blast on-evade in earth - you can see how that gets kinda crazy.

The biggest strength of tempest is sharing shocking and magnetic auras (frost is good too) - this spec does that, but BETTER with the right weapon sets and utils. Even arcane blast and arcane wave become defensive skills b/c pushing them through a field gives you another combo, so you time it to proc in air and you get yourself high uptime on shocking aura.

D/D probably works best with this spec due to the short-CD fire field, but staff has plenty of fields and finishers. The skill-ceiling is very high, but if you work at it you can combo your fields to make sure you get most auras with high uptime.

 

All that sounds fun to build, but once again...why take tempest now?

 

Yeah but auras work mainly in pvp. In pve they are a medium for  common boons and heal but their passive effect on itself is useless. That why Tempest doesn't exist in pve.

 

Edit* if we don't grant unique buff to allies, quickness/fury/might will never be enough to bring us close to FB, not even to scrapper with stealth and superspeed.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[BlackBeard.2873]

22 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

Yeah but auras work mainly in pvp. In pve they are a medium for  common boons and heal but their passive effect on itself is useless. That why Tempest doesn't exist in pve.

 

Edit* if we don't grant unique buff to allies, quickness/fury/might will never be enough to bring us close to FB, not even to scrapper with stealth and superspeed.

I'm not really as familiar with raids, so I can't speak to what will end up being taken there. Having access to perma-quickness for a group of 5 at least gives it a place as a secondary healer who can also do some damage, or a dps build that also shares a whole bunch of quickness (and isn't 100% selfish). It may work.

I was mainly speaking from a pvp/wvw standpoint. In pvp, tempest is there primarily for aura-support (ever since healing was nerfed) with a bit of healing.

 

Regardless, it seems clear this spec is pretty much tempest+. Might be fun to play, but feels bad to now have a mostly dead specialization in terms of what is offered.

 

 

[Ragnarox.9601]

new ele elite reminds me to enhancement shaman in wow, gonna test it out, and if it passes will be my next main for expansion, gonna try rev also.

[fixit.7189]

i was worried it was going to be just another boring melee spec but i was pleasantly surprised after watching the stream. it looks fun to play. i can't wait to test it! 

Edited September 17, 2021 by fixit.7189

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

just look at the ele dmg numbers compared to the other two and weep.

 

We really did not need another melee spec. Weaver could have been a great melee spec with a little bit more range on sword. Now we are going to get another mediocre half baked spec. Awesome.