Imagine if Virtuoso got even a fraction of effort that bladesworn/vindicator/catalyst got.

[HowlKamui.5120]

16 hours ago, Kondor.2904 said:

Without even mentioning obvious mechanical disparities between elite specs and the amount of new skills they get, I especially love how everyone got these neat movement skills (warrior's teleport kekw) and cool movesets, while mesmer (which is supposed to be thief-like class) is just there pretending to a be a stationary golem that just kinda stands and jacks off some purple stuff with its hand.

sadge

Mesmers already have mobility in its core kit. It doesnt need more in an elite spec cause none of it would be better than Blink.

Also, Sword 3.

[Nezekan.2671]

49 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I think it's good that Virtuoso is such a simple design.

Not everything needs to be over-designed and have too many mechanics.

Here is the problem. As Virtuoso, you still need to pick 2 traitlines from core mesmer. Due to how Virtuoso traits are, as in they have zero to little synergy with core mesmer and only each other, it feels bad. Its not the simplicity, its the lack of connection to the class.

[Nezekan.2671]

1 minute ago, HowlKamui.5120 said:

Mesmers already have mobility in its core kit. It doesnt need more in an elite spec cause none of it would be better than Blink.

Also, Sword 3.

Blink is not enough mobility.  Mirage is good because of Jaunt, sword ambush and synergy with chaos and staff.

[HowlKamui.5120]

Just now, Nezekan.2671 said:

Blink is not enough mobility.  Mirage is good because of Jaunt, sword ambush and synergy with chaos and staff.

I think the mobility of mirage is spoiling you. Mirage IS very mobile. maybe 2nd most mobile behind daredevil. If you want mobility, pick those elites. 

Virtuoso doesn't need to match that. It needs its own niche. Otherwise there's no point in having a different spec all together.

Now im not saying Virtuoso is good at its current state. It definitely needs some tweaks. But not in the it-needs-to-be-as-mobile-as-mirage/thief way.

[Nezekan.2671]

Just now, HowlKamui.5120 said:

I think the mobility of mirage is spoiling you. Mirage IS very mobile. maybe 2nd most mobile behind daredevil. If you want mobility, pick those elites. 

Virtuoso doesn't need to match that. It needs its own niche. Otherwise there's no point in having a different spec all together.

Now im not saying Virtuoso is good at its current state. It definitely needs some tweaks. But not in the it-needs-to-be-as-mobile-as-mirage/thief way.

I think dagger having a movement skill would have been enough. Dagger needs to something more than just damage.

[Leonidrex.5649]

12 minutes ago, HowlKamui.5120 said:

Mesmers already have mobility in its core kit. It doesnt need more in an elite spec cause none of it would be better than Blink.

Also, Sword 3.

its like saying rev has a shiro port so it doesnt need any other mobility in its kit.
hurr durr why is there 50% movespeed on their utility? why does sword teleport twice? why does herald elite give super speed?
ree they have 1 port

[dontlook.1823]

Here are things I like:

Virtuoso's damage is no longer being split into clone AI. There are particular scenarios where it is challenging to maintain clones as they sometimes die the second they are summoned-- Esp. in PvP and WvW. 

 

The design is relatively simplistic, as many people have mentioned here. I happen to like dialing it down a bit. Mesmer, especially confusion builds, sometimes require big-brained moves such as knowing when to apply confusion because the enemies or boss attack interval picks up. Many have already stated here that they are disappointed with the simplicity. I happen to welcome it.

 

The number one reason Virtuoso is making me happy is the AoE damage. Mesmer has been single-target-focused for quite some time. Yeah, you could say you get some cleave with Mirage, but it's, honestly, not competitive enough in terms of point-blank AoE.

 

We are currently #1 in Big Hitbox. <----- Sourced from Snow Crows (https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/). Of course, this can change--Heck, we haven't even seen the rest of the Elite Specifications. But, who would have thought? Mesmer being good in an area Elementalists have dominated for so long. 

 

I think we have the burst now to be a contender in Fractals. Mesmer has been a suboptimal choice for very long in fractals. Chrono has a steep ramp-up time, so other classes with a lot of front-loaded damage usually blow Pchrono out of the water. For example, Soulbeast, Dragon Hunter, and even a Firebrand can out burst a PChrono in Fractals. Mirage has lately been an OK choice for fractals just because of the Torment changes. https://discretize.eu/builds if you'll notice pchrono is at the very bottom of the "good builds" category. Mirage isn't even considered.. Which is a shame but, ehh.

 

We can finally set up some powerful precast. Not only stock blades ahead of time but also have an AoE skill and Elite skill to precast. I can see some great potential there.

 

Things I don't like:

 

Why didn't they give us double-handed daggers? We have been consistently stomped with main-hands and off-hands-- Shield and then Axe. It would have been nice to have a new phantasm skill that could backstab and another that could teleport you behind your enemy or something. I think dagger off-hand would have been neat. But I was throwing out some ideas there. I'll live, though. The skills and traits are what I look forward to when a new Elite Specification comes out.

 

I am going to miss being the top dog for small hitbox. RIP Danger time. Although we still have a good spot for a small hitbox with the Chrono. It may not be number 1 anymore, but heck, it's good enough for me. I like that we have two Specifications that are viable in the PvE scene. Cough took them forever to do something with scrapper **Cough**. **Cough**. I hope that something like that didn't happen to Mesmer. Phew! It didn't happen, so phewww.

 

Uh, not too sure if I like the change to swords skills 3 Illusionary move leap. I don't remember if it requires a target. But that OnDemand immobilization is strong for locking moving targets down in PvP and WvW.

 

I think that is pretty much it. I am interested in how Anet will tweak this specification over the years. While it is already performing well with power, I think it has a lot of potential with the condition, given that we get a 25% boost to bleeding damage. It becomes Hella accessible to stock blades with that bottom grandmaster. I can see it synergizing well with the master trait in dueling. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by dontlook.1823

[Fueki.4753]

52 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Here is the problem. As Virtuoso, you still need to pick 2 traitlines from core mesmer. Due to how Virtuoso traits are, as in they have zero to little synergy with core mesmer and only each other, it feels bad. Its not the simplicity, its the lack of connection to the class.

Whether it feels bad or not depends from person to person.

Other than the F-skills not being instant, it felt rather good to me.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Nezekan.2671]

Just now, Fueki.4753 said:

Whether it feels bad or not depends from person to person.

To me, it felt really good.

I think you are misunderstanding my point. I like Virtuoso too. It looks good, I like the concept and all that jazz. Its performance however is really lacking, specially in any kind of end-game. 

[Kondor.2904]

36 minutes ago, HowlKamui.5120 said:

I think the mobility of mirage is spoiling you. Mirage IS very mobile. maybe 2nd most mobile behind daredevil. If you want mobility, pick those elites. 

Virtuoso doesn't need to match that. It needs its own niche. Otherwise there's no point in having a different spec all together.

Now im not saying Virtuoso is good at its current state. It definitely needs some tweaks. But not in the it-needs-to-be-as-mobile-as-mirage/thief way.

Mirage mobility can't spoil anyone when half of the specs in the game are powercreeped to such extent that they have no problem keeping up or even outpace mesmer due to short cd gap closers and sustained movement speed. Mirage mobility is vastly overrated and most of it is used to cover up the nonexistent sustain, while others get it as a powercreep bonus. 

And after warrior and who knows which else spec getting more vertical mobility, as well as numerous short cd gap closers built in profession mechanics of other specs, virtuoso looks like a stationary npc with absolutely zero sustain and offensive pressure additions to justify the nonexistent mobility of a core mesmer.

[mortrialus.3062]

1 hour ago, HowlKamui.5120 said:

I think the mobility of mirage is spoiling you. Mirage IS very mobile. maybe 2nd most mobile behind daredevil. If you want mobility, pick those elites. 

Virtuoso doesn't need to match that. It needs its own niche. Otherwise there's no point in having a different spec all together.

Now im not saying Virtuoso is good at its current state. It definitely needs some tweaks. But not in the it-needs-to-be-as-mobile-as-mirage/thief way.

Necromancers with Spectral Walk and Fleshwurm are running around with 3690 units of blink per minute, viably on multiple of their meta builds in SPvP.

Core mesmers are running around with 2057 units of blink per minute. If you take Master of Manipulation that puts you at 2400 units of blink per minute.    Portal isn't viable anymore.  Mesmer is not fast.  You need sword, jaunt, and blink to actually have you keeping up with necromancers, which no one would describe as speed demons.

Virtuoso isn't just slow, it also just does not have the tools to actually keep a target away or an answer for when they do get close. Compare other better designed ranged kits.

Ranger Longbow

1.  High Velocity Projectile

2.  Main damage skill, high velocity good at any range.

3.  Stealth to escape a target that gets close.

4.  Knockback to push a close target away or set up your main burst.

5.  A long range AOE that is ground targeted, applies cripple to keep targets away, and can rack up 10k damage on a berserker amulet in SPvP.

 

Deadeye Rifle:

1.  High Velocity Projectile

2.   Cripple / Immobilize to keep targets away from you and help set up your main damage skill.

3.  Main damage skill, high velocity good at any range.

4.  A massive blink backwards that can be spammed if targets get close / a projectile destroying wall if someone tries to attack you from range. 

Meanwhile Virtuoso has:

1. Low velocity projectile. 

2.  A shotgun style skill that in order to be used at maximum efficiency requires getting into point blank range, detargetting the enemy, aiming the camera at their feet, then firing.  Has no other utility.

3.  A projectile that shoots other projectiles and does nothing else. 

The other ranged weapons are just more complete kits that have ways to keep people away, do good damage at max range, and get away from the target should they close the gap.   Dagger has none of these and regardless on what offhand you have it doesn't make the kit as well rounded as those competitively.  You can get a stealth or a stun or a pull which doesn't compare to the quality of life and clear mix of good damage an utility and survivability on either of those weapon examples of ranged kits, both of which have 3 skills dedicated to just helping you be effective as a ranged damage dealer.

Edited September 18, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Kirrund.2654]

57 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Necromancers with Spectral Walk and Fleshwurm are running around with 3690 units of blink per minute, viably one multiple of their meta builds in SPvP.

Core mesmers are running around with 2057 units of blink per minute. If you take Master of Manipulation that puts you at 2400 units of blink per minute.    Portal isn't viable anymore.  Mesmer is not fast.  You need sword, jaunt, and blink to actually have you keeping up with necromancers, which no one would describe as speed demons.

Virtuoso isn't just slow, it also just does not have the tools to actually keep a target away or an answer for when they do get close. Compare other better designed ranged kits.

Ranger Longbow

1.  High Velocity Projectile

2.  Main damage skill, high velocity good at any range.

3.  Stealth to escape a target that gets close.

4.  Knockback to push a close target away or set up your main burst.

5.  A long range AOE that is ground targeted, applies cripple to keep targets away, and can rack up 10k damage on a berserker amulet in SPvP.

 

Deadeye Rifle:

1.  High Velocity Projectile

2.   Cripple / Immobilize to keep targets away from you and help set up your main damage skill.

3.  Main damage skill, high velocity good at any range.

4.  A massive blink backwards that can be spammed if targets get close / a projectile destroying wall if someone tries to attack you from range. 

Meanwhile Virtuoso has:

1. Low velocity projectile. 

2.  A shotgun style skill that in order to be used at maximum efficiency requires getting into point blank range, detargetting the enemy, aiming the camera at their feet, then firing.  Has no other utility.

3.  A projectile that shoots other projectiles and does nothing else. 

The other ranged weapons are just more complete kits that have ways to keep people away, do good damage at max range, and get away from the target should they close the gap.   Dagger has none of these and regardless on what offhand you have it doesn't make the kit as well rounded as those competitively.  You can get a stealth or a stun or a pull which doesn't compare to the quality of life and clear mix of good damage an utility and survivability on either of those weapon examples of ranged kits, both of which have 3 skills dedicated to just helping you be effective as a ranged damage dealer.

Good on you for responding to this other person so I didn't have to. No idea why people think Mesmers are towards the top end of mobile.  Maybe it's been billed like that, bit when you look at the skills and their cooldowns, it's not. 

 

Not only that but the Virtuoso utilities build on the blade stocking and dont offer any mobility of their own, so if you want to have some of that "super good core mesmer mobility" you have to sacrifice what builds your core mechanic.  Sounds great 10/10

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Edit: kondor already said what I said here so nevermind.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Gomes.5643]

2 hours ago, HowlKamui.5120 said:

The traits of the current 3 elite specs being beta'd, especially the Catalyst is much more inspired than Virtuoso's and Harbinger's for sure.

For some reason, Virtuoso and Harbinger have 1 line power and 1 line condi, which is incredibly boring. You already choose to go with condi or power based on your armor, why do the traits have to specifically be a straight line for power, and a straight line for condi?

Yeah that is also the most annoying thing in my opinion ..... it kind of restricting in build making as most people either go one or the other ..... I would kind of prefer if they pick one of the two and therefore give my options in the traits.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Honestly I enjoyed played Virtuoso and was ready to invest in it, but after seeing Vindicator...well it's back to being a Rev main for me. The difference in complexity between the specs is comical. Poor Mesmers 😔. Harbinger feels similarly uninspired. Willbender perhaps the same but IMO is moreso an issue of being undertuned, and the potential complexity is there. 

[Mik.3401]

Problem with the virtuoso is lack of sustain apart from 60cd 3s distortion utility which you need to take always.

For Mesmer clones are not only source of damage but also sustain (re-targeting, just spamming clones and pretending to be one, etc.) virtuoso has none of it m, instead it has shatter skills everyone sees coming with long animation casting times.

so it is basically worse than core in this department, sure F2 may be good fir condi builds, but the F4 makes chrono look like a tank in comparison in pvp.

Then damage - looses in both power and condi departments (or just breaks even). There’s just no point to this spec I agree.

It’s all taken away nothing given in return

[Levetty.1279]

13 hours ago, HowlKamui.5120 said:

Virtuoso doesn't need to match that. It needs its own niche. Otherwise there's no point in having a different spec all together.
 

It does when every single skill is ranged and it is squishier then core Mesmer. 

[Loules.8601]

13 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

It does when every single skill is ranged and it is squishier then core Mesmer. 

On 9/18/2021 at 10:32 PM, HowlKamui.5120 said:

Virtuoso doesn't need to match that. It needs its own niche. Otherwise there's no point in having a different spec all together.

Elementalist's down-state niche.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Loules.8601

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

Complexity is a currency you use to buy Depth for the class. It's fine to have a class/e-spec that is very simple and has few mechanics, so long as you still put in an acceptable amount of depth. Necromancer is fairly simple but has really good depth. Core Warrior is the epitome of simplicity, but it still has an acceptable amount of depth, even if not as much as they used to.

 

Virtuoso, though, is as deep as a glass of water spilled on the floor. It has nothing, and it does nothing. It just sits there completely immobile lobbing the same handful of projectiles over and over again. Any form of depth that Virtuoso might have is just a carry-over from core Mesmer, at which point you're just playing a worse Mesmer.

[Puck.3697]

On 9/17/2021 at 10:19 PM, Levetty.1279 said:

Are we still pretending 'no clones' is an elite spec mechanic?

imma have to throw this down in all honesty

have you read any of the people of these classes speaking on their proffessions?.. they're all angry at what we've gotten, Mesmers arent the only one feeling like their new elites "underwhelming".

i dont think any of the new 3 hold anything to the PoF variants.

Spellbreaker will be a better option to PvP with. Purely because of Sustain. Bladesworn has 0... its Utilities are obselete because Warriors only defense to condi is litterally the staple utilities its used uptoo this point.. they've carbon copied Berserker with no Fixs for the problems its first iteration carried.

Berserker will still be the better option in PvE with. Because Banners. Berserker can run banners and do loads of damage.. while Bladesworn will take larger DPS Losses due to its utiltiies being used for DPS Purposes.

Bladesworn will be Useless Open world, because its 5 second Stand still stuff.. its overkill for anything openm world the specc wont have the survivability to just facetank hits to get it off.

Catalyst.

Weavers gonna be better in SPVP, Hammer doesnt rly hold a flag here. its Utilities are weak, its Elite is Weak weavers are defintly as of current just better, Hammer may make it as some sorta teamfight build?? maybe.. but it'll be less effective then Reaper or something alike this realistically.

Catalyst may win as a tempest 2.0 in PvE but Weaver will still be the default DPS build.

Cataylst if it carries higher Sustain may be good in open world??.. but Condi Tempest likely will be a better option realistically.

Revenants one

Yeah didnt realistically look much into this one. but Revenants dont seem happy with it in the slightest.

 

they all look like PvE speccs to me in all honesty, i see basically 0 PvP Potiental in any of them, their trade offs are too severe. they are by far below PoF Speccs in terms of power creep and they just hold 0 weight against PoF Elites... it feels like they've forgotten where the power levels realistically are when developing these.

Either they're nerfing absolutely every other Elite in the game before the launch of these... or Yeah these are dead speccs on arrival.. ofcourse this could be the plan of action and if so... its a good thing, but The Elites we currently have are just so much stronger then what these offer right now..

Edited September 20, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Salt Mode.3780]

Yea ok so when you see those people complaining about their e-specs you cant help but look back at virtuoso on how much it lacks compared to the e-specs people are currently complaining about. 

The philosophy of trying to tune down the power creep isn't going to work again like i said it was 2 expansions too late.

[Puck.3697]

10 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Yea ok so when you see those people complaining about their e-specs you cant help but look back at virtuoso on how much it lacks compared to the e-specs people are currently complaining about. 

The philosophy of trying to tune down the power creep isn't going to work again like i said it was 2 expansions too late.

Well heres the fact we say this. and in that same statement i can come back to with its doing 47k DPS at 1200 Range..

1) higher then any other proffession in the game currently.

2) 1200 range.... lol

Lets break this down.

Bladesworn. It has no Sustain, its primary damage dealer is on a 5 second channel, its highly telegraphed to hell and ontop of all of this its forced into melee at all times almost even tho it has soo little self sustain.

Vindicator, 1 Dodge.. Mesmers have said since forever, a Specc cannot fundamentally work with only 1 dodge, yet your here proclaiming how well this specc looks?

Catayst, Super weak elites and Utilities, Very basic Weapon with lots of Abilities that require stationary targets almost. #

At the end of the day.

Elementalists have proclaimed Pure DPS has no role in PvE... that 0 boons basically is a big no on the invites, yet bladesworn is exactly this. a glass Cannon, another one in a Role proclaimed to be useless to the game.

Vindicator has only 1 Dodge, in SPVP been screeched fundamentally just dont work in that enviroment, but now ur saying how good these proffessions have it?

They all look like PvE Speccs.. and weather u like it or not.. it doing Super higfh DPS on a 1200 Range is a Power creep realistically.

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 47k DPS

Lie

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 DPS at 1200 Range

Lie

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

1) higher then any other proffession in the game currently.

 

Harbinger is higher.  Not that far ahead of specs that bring team dps increases.

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

2) 1200 range.... lol

 

Still a lie.

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Bladesworn. It has no Sustain, its primary damage dealer is on a 5 second channel, its highly telegraphed to hell and ontop of all of this its forced into melee at all times almost even tho it has soo little self sustain.

Better sustain then Virtuoso. Its meme 470k damaging skill is on a 5 second cooldown, gives it something nice to do during boss invuln phases. Has other skills that do damage.

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Vindicator, 1 Dodge.. Mesmers have said since forever, a Specc cannot fundamentally work with only 1 dodge, yet your here proclaiming how well this specc looks?

Actual new mechanics and ways to get endrance back.

 

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Catayst, Super weak elites and Utilities, Very basic Weapon with lots of Abilities that require stationary targets almost. #

At the end of the day.

Literally describing the Virtuoso.

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

it doing Super higfh DPS on a 1200 Range 

Still a lie.

 

DPS build for Virtuoso needs to be in melee range for its 15% damage trait and dagger number 2 and it uses sword just as much as it uses dagger. It is 42k in melee range. Not 47k at 1200 range.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Who the kitten cares if it does 47k dps in pve? It's trash in every competitive game mode and has no mechanic.
Bladesworn -Dragon Trigger or whatever is called
Catalyst - F5
Vindi - Dual skills and dodge
Harbinger - Harbinger shroud
WB - mobile virtues but it's trash anyway and will play the same as core guard.
Virt - clones rebranded blades, you get to have them between fights (which is a kittening bandaid to 2012 problem).

[Nezekan.2671]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Well heres the fact we say this. and in that same statement i can come back to with its doing 47k DPS at 1200 Range..

1) higher then any other proffession in the game currently.

2) 1200 range.... lol

Lets break this down.

Bladesworn. It has no Sustain, its primary damage dealer is on a 5 second channel, its highly telegraphed to hell and ontop of all of this its forced into melee at all times almost even tho it has soo little self sustain.

Vindicator, 1 Dodge.. Mesmers have said since forever, a Specc cannot fundamentally work with only 1 dodge, yet your here proclaiming how well this specc looks?

Catayst, Super weak elites and Utilities, Very basic Weapon with lots of Abilities that require stationary targets almost. #

At the end of the day.

Elementalists have proclaimed Pure DPS has no role in PvE... that 0 boons basically is a big no on the invites, yet bladesworn is exactly this. a glass Cannon, another one in a Role proclaimed to be useless to the game.

Vindicator has only 1 Dodge, in SPVP been screeched fundamentally just dont work in that enviroment, but now ur saying how good these proffessions have it?

They all look like PvE Speccs.. and weather u like it or not.. it doing Super higfh DPS on a 1200 Range is a Power creep realistically.

Maybe check benchmarks details before posting? Dagger was only used on a large unit model, and even then it was used in melee. Sword/sword and sword/focus was used on a small model, because dagger is useless apart from dagger 2 and 3 hitting large models more than once.