Imagine if Virtuoso got even a fraction of effort that bladesworn/vindicator/catalyst got.

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Still a lie.

I was misinformed it'd seem.

3 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Better sustain then Virtuoso. Its meme 470k damaging skill is on a 5 second cooldown, gives it something nice to do during boss invuln phases. Has other skills that do damage.

Well yeah ofcourse it does.. its litterally a Plate proffession thats not going to change the fact that any Player in their right mind isnt going to burst the player dead on the spot of trying to use it. Warriors arent that tanky to begin with.

almost bound entirely to being at minimum 1/2 Ranged. and we all know that 470k Damaging skills getting nerfed lmfao. im not even willing to take it seriously as of current due to that realistically We know theres no way. they'll let that sorta damage fly into PvE.. it''s litterally going to ruin raiding experience entirely if it did.

3 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Actual new mechanics and ways to get endrance back.

eh i still dont see it holding up. they even said in the post that dont want it to feel too restricting When needing to dodge... which means it is to a extent  susposed to be a Trade off.. meaning if it performs as well as 2 dodges its going to be nerfed down.

3 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Literally describing the Virtuoso.

except one thing... if virtuoso goes sour... Mesmers got several roles in meta which it can do, while Elementalist most defintly doesnt. considering Weaver isnt meta at all, and Tempest is just a weaker option due to the fact no team needs the overhealing it provides as its "role".

3 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

DPS build for Virtuoso needs to be in melee range for its 15% damage trait and dagger number 2 and it uses sword just as much as it uses dagger. It is 42k in melee range. Not 47k at 1200 range.

I swear Someone stated it was doing those numbers, but maybe they were also incorrect.

2 hours ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Maybe check benchmarks details before posting? Dagger was only used on a large unit model, and even then it was used in melee. Sword/sword and sword/focus was used on a small model, because dagger is useless apart from dagger 2 and 3 hitting large models more than once.

havent found any bench marks on any of them.. just went off what people were writing up on the Speccs during its beta. but lets not forget everyone thought willbender will be OP til it actually got into the beta, any of these 3 could show out the exact same way.

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Catalyst - F5

Yeah. at the cost of what? Barrier, More stun breaks, Several  times better utility options and Survivability? are we forgetting how much the hammer just does not have compared to Sword/focus?. Weaver is Defintly in SPVP going to remain the stronger option in current state.

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Bladesworn -Dragon Trigger or whatever is called

PvE Ability. bladesworn will give up all its Sustain from Spellbreaker. u try Hardcasting stationary ur gonna get bursted Down dead we all know that, hence why a Trait which reduces the damage dramatically for faster casts is Accessible. not that i beleive it'll actually make the ability any more useful in co-ordinated SPVP.

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Vindi - Dual skills and dodge

eeeh we'll wait and see on that.. i just dont see vindi being that amazing in SPVP.. not compared to something like Renegade.

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

WB - mobile virtues but it's trash anyway and will play the same as core guard.

We're all aware of WB, its terrible but lets face it... its guardian... When do anet NOT fix guardian problems? lol.

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Harbinger - Harbinger shroud

Harbingers gonna be the new weaver realistically... maybe this time they'll give it the Damage it should be doing in trade off for how glassy it is.

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Virt - clones rebranded blades, you get to have them between fights (which is a kittening bandaid to 2012 problem).

While i'd say u underplay the actual Profit of blades instead of clones.. yeah its a boring answer to things, that doesnt mean it wont be good. these arent at a release finals Virt and Harbinger are obviously susposed to be Glass Cannons.. which means they bring nothing but huge DPS, they'll likely be tuned up if they arent doing exactly that.

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Who the kitten cares if it does 47k dps in pve? It's trash in every competitive game mode and has no mechanic.

Well.. beleive it or not, anet have shown several times they are fine with some Speccs working in PvP and not PvE and vice versa

Spellbreaker and berserker are good examples of that, Speccs are never good in both game modes.. Espically in most cases a Glass Cannon.. i think weavers realistically the only exception to that rule realistically.. as most glass cannon builds just arent feasible in SPVP Enviroments.

it doesnt change the factor.

imho, Spellbreaker will remain stronger then bladesworn in SPVP unless some form of the balance currently alters.. with Warriors problem against condi options and More theres no way Warriors could afford to become any more glassy for the sake of damage realistically.

Same as i think Weaver will remain the stronger PvP Option to Catalyst in current content.

Same as i think Renegade will remain stronger PvP option to Vindicator.

the same as i think Reaper/core necro will remain stronger PvP option to Harbinger.

the same as i think Mirage will remain stronger PvP option to virt.

The same as i think Core Guard / DH will remain stronger PvP option to Willbender.

I think the speccs are pretty much built entirely on PvE, i dont think any of the new Speccs have cohesion with their other traits.

Bladesworn for example.. we're still gonna be forced to run Disc... while Bladesworn kills off Some of the traits in there because of a lack of Cohesion effectively with Gunsaber? Lol. Virts the same way.. it lacks cohesion with the rest of the proffession... Its been the number 1 complaint on every forum... that these new speccs mechanics jsut dont align with the rest of the proffession.. they're all missing something fundamentally to work properly.

Now either thats because they are beta. and they're not finalized yet, or because They intend to nerf PoF and HoT elites down by quite a fair mile is unknown so far.. but Im not seeing how any of the 3 shown are realistically going to out perform their PoF Options as of current.

the only fundamental wins here is Realistically, its very likely We're gonna see a Support Rev pop up, and All the new proffessions so far are liekly to outperform their counterparts in some form in PvE Content.

On a Preference level no. i dont like virt, but i've seen plenty who do and hope it succeeds, i quit mesmer because of Virt.. because from a conceptual standpoint Its not my cup of tea, i think its a missed opportunity to return mesmer to its GW1 state with Hexs etc etc so i wont  disagree the speccs boring.. but im NGL.. Most people are complaining the new elites feel uninspired.

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Salt Mode.3780]

I don't know who you are trolling here but ok fine lets break down your claims @Daddy.8125.

1. 47k Dmg I assume the elite you are talking about, is on a 75 sec CD with an extremely narrow hitbox and does not target and requires you to be still to cast. FYI hits will miss even at the slightest elevation in terrain. 

2. 1200 range, this is not exclusive to Virtuoso as almost all ranged attacks are at 1200 in fact 1200 range isn't even considered far when you account for rangers and deadeyes with 1500 range. (Oh and they have access to unlockable and stealth and skills are instant.) OH I forgot to mention not only are our 1200 range skills extremely telegraphed and they are easily reflected or side stepped. 

3. Vindicator 1 dodge has traits and ways for it to regen the endurance back, is this a good thing yes its better then mirage nerf that had nothing to compensate considering they nerfed our vigor back when we had 2 dodge and nothing to compensate back. Fact that you know this is bad I don't see why you fail to mention that they refuse to REVERT the nerfed they did on vigor uptime.

4. Catalyst, what you are describing is honestly Virtuoso, but the difference between catalyst and virtuoso is that the traits are better then virtuoso. So congrats your whole analysis you managed to find something remotely correct. BTW considering they are able to have extra stats it only goes to show they are pushing Ele towards celestial stats because that is going to give them the most bonus.

 

Again with the PvE comparison, PvE don't matter at all and I have stated on my other post. PvE is subjective because you can still clear the content with moderate dps. Why do people want benchmarks and dps meter? Well its not because it is the only way to clear the content it is just the fastest way to clear it. SO what does that mean? You either choose to play a class you enjoy but having a bit longer fights vs clearing it faster playing on a meta class. You forcing urself to play the highest dps class is on your own not anyone else. 

Lastly I want to mention Virtuoso 5 blade shatter is less damage then a Core Mesmer with 1 clone + 1 IP. I would suggest you do more research before coming here. Thanks.

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Puck.3697]

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

1. 47k Dmg I assume the elite you are talking about, is on a 75 sec CD with an extremely narrow hitbox and does not target and requires you to be still to cast. FYI hits will miss even at the slightest elevation in terrain. 

as i already said the info i thought was correct was stated was wrong and i admit that.. someone did correct me to its 42k not 47k and relies on melee more then it was made out to be.

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

2. 1200 range, this is not exclusive to Virtuoso as almost all ranged attacks are at 1200 in fact 1200 range isn't even considered far when you account for rangers and deadeyes with 1500 range. (Oh and they have access to unlockable and stealth and skills are instant.)

well yeah... but the only other one i can think anyone uses is Ranger longbow realistically 😛

3 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

3. Vindicator 1 dodge has traits and ways for it to regen the endurance back, is this a good thing yes its better then mirage nerf that had nothing to compensate considering they nerfed our vigor back when we had 2 dodge and nothing to compensate back. Fact that you know this is bad I don't see why you fail to mention that they refuse to REVERT the nerfed they did on vigor uptime.

Vindicators is alittle more solid yes, but he did explictly say its not ment to feel "too restictive when needing to dodge" which means if it performs well its Likely going to get nerfed to reinforce the trade offs susposed to be here, regardless i dont see 1 Dodge builds being realistic in SPVP Enviroments.

this looks like a PvE Support option for Rev to me.. and i think renegades still going to outperform in SPVP as of current state.

5 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

4. Catalyst, what you are describing is honestly Virtuoso, but the difference between catalyst and virtuoso is that the traits are better then virtuoso. So congrats your whole analysis you managed to find something remotely correct. BTW considering they are able to have extra stats it only goes to show they are pushing Ele towards celestial stats because that is going to give them the most bonus.

Catalyst is Weaker then Weaver in SPVP.. and only wins in PvE because it litterally removes Tempests point of existance.

5 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again with the PvE comparison, PvE don't matter at all and I have stated on my other post.

yeah and my argument is.. i dont think any of these Elites will replace PoF Options in PvP As of current balance.. they all having Gaping holes in em current Elites fill better.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Again whether a class uses a certain weapon is on them not because they don't have access to it. Its like rangers complaining that they are being reflected but in reality they have a utility that gives unblockable. I know a lot of rangers that uses long bow effectively in competitive play that aren't the ones standing behind towers pew pewing.

 

Slapping on 1200 range and calling it a day is worse then having some deep thought on how the class is going to work mechanically. Yes the mentioned classes in this thread may not be good, but they had deeper thought in mechanic then just 1200 range.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Puck.3697]

24 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Yes the mentioned classes in this thread may not be good, but they had deeper thought in mechanic then just 1200 range.

 

im saying no "may" about it.. im saying unless the balance fundamentally changes they wont be better. im sorry, but creating bladesworn I.E Berserker 2.0 isnt fixing the problems warrior currently has in the slightest.. if anything it makes them worse because of how glassy that build is gonna be realistically.

24 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Yes the mentioned classes in this thread may not be good, but they had deeper thought in mechanic then just 1200 range.

Heres currently whats written over the bladesworn forum.

Positives:

• It looks cool

Negativs:

• No Weapon Swap
• No Normal Burst
• Forced to play a Weapon (Gunsaber)
• All cool new stuff is gated behind staying in place for 5s.
• Whats the point of Ammo synergy when we dont have Kill Shot and Rifle is still a terrible weapon?
• What is that Spec even for?

Not gonna Lie. it doesnt look like their much happier.... if the only positive u can give ur new elite is "it looks cool".. im sorry but it isnt "Deep". No ones talking about how Awesome bladesworn looks. they're all memeing on 350k Damage in 1 strike lol.

Im sorry, but unless they suprise us with some sorta Rework to some Serious Fundamental Issues in proffessions, these elites arent "great". or ""deep thought"... their different grades of how Flashy it looks..

Elementalists got Gyros.. cool.

Warriors got a Holoforge on a New resource and Several times more trade offs to pay for it. awesome

Willbender a Failure of a Experiment of throwing thief at Guardian at variable Angles for Results.awesome

Revenant Forced into situations of Using Specific Utility abilities they may not even want but use just to get back the other Side of the ability Awesome.

Mesmers Gained the ability to target swap. Awesome.

Necromancers I'd actually argue harbinger is actually pretty cool, i think its trade offs currently are a wee bit too strong to work in SPVP though.. Blight isnt a well thought out mechanic and the Exilirs are the most boring part to the specc. but look powerful for PvE atleast.

from a SPVP Standpoint.. these just arent stronger then our current elites, they are actually "fair" while currently none of the elites are.. none of the current elites have trade offs realistically outside Mirage which only came in because they decided to butcher the Specc and now they wanna introduce elites with proper trade offs?..

bladesworn wont even be able to functionally put kitten CC into a DPS build for PvE lol because they Nerf hammered CC Abilities DPS Capability all togehter lol, the restrictions are Harsh. the trade offs are pretty hefty too and currently. that just puts em at a Disadvantage.

We were all saying how "OP" Willbender would be.. before we saw how bad it was.. i reckon when we reliese Spellbreaker will just decimate a Bladesworn We'll reliese the same for these other speccs too. Bladesworn offers soem funny memes to come. but its Damage is getting nerfed

Doing some Quick math

420k DPS per 5 seconds is 84k DPS... unless the Damage fall off is So dramatically high that they fall to normal Levels, Ur looking at a proffession thats gonna turn the current top DPS Capabilities into Garbage realistically.. theres just no way its happening.

I bet by release that thing hits for 100k Tops realistically.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Salt Mode.3780]

Yes but if you look at every other forum threads that people are complaining NO ONE compares to how bad their class is because Virtuoso is THAT awesome lol. In fact Virtuoso is not mentioned at ANY of the complaints in other profession comparisons.

In fact you only see Virtuoso in Mesmer thread and that's about it. Yea bladesworn is bad but they don't say its worse then Virtuoso.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Puck.3697]

20 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Yes but if you look at every other forum threads that people are complaining NO ONE compares to how bad their class is because Virtuoso is THAT awesome lol. In fact Virtuoso is not mentioned at ANY of the complaints in other profession comparisons.

In fact you only see Virtuoso in Mesmer thread and that's about it. Yea bladesworn is bad but they don't say its worse then Virtuoso.

because they dont need to.. because All the New especcs are bad in SPVP compared to current options lol. Virt needs its projectile status Removed effectively thats for kitten sure. everything being projectile is a terrible idea to begin with, and prolly somethingto get altered.

just because their Different layers of Terrible doesnt mean its any better.

If we hit EoD and we're all using PoF Speccs.. it dont matter which one is Worse of the bunch.. No ones Using em.. they're all dead on arrival.. .trying to grade How bad each one is.. Doesnt matter.. its Life

Theres a Winning Spot

and theres a Bunch of Losers

and EoD Especcs are all sitting in the bunch of Losers catagory.

Weather catalyst is 50% Worse then Weaver or 10% Worse then Weaver. it wont chanfge the factor ur gonna get ur kitten handed to u by a Weaver.

but bladesworn is being released on a Terribly thought out mechanic, which is "unfun" to play against. because its a Memey one shot BS. thats only final Point is the nerfing hammer out of the game for the sake of "other players enjoyment". while we sit on a B tier Specc for another 4 years that sees 0 Competitive use beyond basic Ranked Matchs.

Bladesworns just flashier..with its 420k Damaging hits.

84k DPS with 1 button. is Insanity. and that in itself will sell itself to multitudes of players

However. everythings gonna be nerfed around it to cater to that damage, til eventually the crying gets so loud that it gets Nerfed too, but anet will forget how nerfed everything else is around it leaving Warriors in dumpster tier after a few months.

Virt starting at such a Negative Point. likely means it'll get fixed before the launch of the game.. because any changes required after the games launch we know will be done with a Shotgun and not a Scalpel.

but number tuning problems.. are a far better place to be, then Fundamental mechanics just being far too strong Virt prolly needs unblockable put on its Shatters. and the Damage tuned upwards. Bladesworn.. needs fundamentally changing to be something other then a 1 shot memey berserker replacement.

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Puck.3697]

22 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Yes but if you look at every other forum threads that people are complaining NO ONE compares to how bad their class is because Virtuoso is THAT awesome lol. In fact Virtuoso is not mentioned at ANY of the complaints in other profession comparisons.

In fact you only see Virtuoso in Mesmer thread and that's about it. Yea bladesworn is bad but they don't say its worse then Virtuoso.

What jackpot?

Willbender and Virtuoso fill in niches for the classes.

Bladesworn does not. 

We get lots of downsides again for what exactly? Standing still for 5s so we can Oneshot people which will get nerfed into oblivion like Berzerker?

What does Bladesworn even do?

Its not Power dps as it has only 1 trait for dmg increase.

Its not Condi.

Its not support.

Its not even good for PvP/WvW as we already have Spellbreaker for it.

I dont even see a reason to use it against Worldbosses.

 

For me, Bladesworn is the worst Elite Spec form EoD so far. It has literally no reason to exist.

 

PS pulled from the Warrior forum.. Where someone does bring up they think virt being better then bladesworn. and name it to be the worst Specc So far.

[Salt Mode.3780]

15 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

What jackpot?

Willbender and Virtuoso fill in niches for the classes.

Bladesworn does not. 

We get lots of downsides again for what exactly? Standing still for 5s so we can Oneshot people which will get nerfed into oblivion like Berzerker?

What does Bladesworn even do?

Its not Power dps as it has only 1 trait for dmg increase.

Its not Condi.

Its not support.

Its not even good for PvP/WvW as we already have Spellbreaker for it.

I dont even see a reason to use it against Worldbosses.

 

For me, Bladesworn is the worst Elite Spec form EoD so far. It has literally no reason to exist.

 

PS pulled from the Warrior forum.. Where someone does bring up they think virt being better then bladesworn. and name it to be the worst Specc So far.

One lol...I don't deny that bladesworn is bad but at least there was thought behind it. For example adrenaline traits to work with flow something that Virtuoso do not have. Having older traits worked to accommodate new things. The debate isn't whether or not the spec is better its the thought behind and work behind the whole thing. No doubt bladesworn might be worse then Virtuoso but it does not mean the work behind it was less then Virtuoso that is the topic of the thread.

The fact that some of the new traits for Virtuoso is no different then just working on older traits to work with blades.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Puck.3697]

6 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

One lol...I don't deny that bladesworn is bad but at least there was thought behind it. For example adrenaline traits to work with flow something that Virtuoso do not have. Having older traits worked to accommodate new things. The debate isn't whether or not the spec is better its the thought behind and work behind the whole thing. No doubt bladesworn might be worse then Virtuoso but it does not mean the work behind it was less then Virtuoso that is the topic of the thread.

The fact that some of the new traits for Virtuoso is no different then just working on older traits to work with blades.

dude.. u only have to read the thread to realistically see how unhappy some are with bladesworn.. there are plenty who think bladesworn is a terrible idea.. the chat didnt react well to quite a few details surrounding it alone during the stream who cal admitted they're werent even reading lol.

I dunno. is Designing a Proffession to hit for 420 Damage / 5 seconds repeatively a good design?.. i'd question it. I'd argue they've just mirrored a Flashy Dragonhunter or Soulbeasts PvE Rotation in all honesty. because thats all it is.

- Use this combo in this Order When off Cooldown to Burst - - Fill with this Weak Spammy buttons when u got nothing left - Thats DH/Soulbeast gameplay.

theres no thought process behind it.

they gave Warrior ANOTHER berserker effectively.. reiterating their Old elite Specc isnt "creative" or "deep".

there are people who are happy with virt and arent happy with virt

there are people who are happy with bladesworn and arent happy with bladesworn.

do i think virt Conceptually boring, Yes i do.. even tho i think its rather fun to play Its mechanic aint that creative in current form as it feels too alike a nerfed Set of clones. i think anet overestimated the gain from removing Clone travel times and AI Reliance and Tbh i think its shatters need Reworking among quite a few traits before it'll be functional.

Do i think Virt will get that yes. because i can see fundamentally why they underballed it.. and i'd put my money on it being exactly that.. they thought the natural gain of no clones was gonna be higher then it turned out to be.. so now they can Add to those Traits and Shatter effects to bring it upwards.

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

dude.. u only have to read the thread to realistically see how unhappy some are with bladesworn.. there are plenty who think bladesworn is a terrible idea.. the chat didnt react well to quite a few details surrounding it alone during the stream who cal admitted they're werent even reading lol.

I dunno. is Designing a Proffession to hit for 420 Damage / 5 seconds repeatively a good design?.. i'd question it. I'd argue they've just mirrored a Flashy Dragonhunter or Soulbeasts PvE Rotation in all honesty. because thats all it is.

- Use this combo in this Order When off Cooldown to Burst - - Fill with this Weak Spammy buttons when u got nothing left - Thats DH/Soulbeast gameplay.

theres no thought process behind it.

they gave Warrior ANOTHER berserker effectively.. reiterating their Old elite Specc isnt "creative" or "deep".

Sorry I didn't know that this was a Warrior thread I must be in the wrong section. The fact is at least warriors got old traits reworked for Flow whereas Virtuoso did not that is a fact.

I did not say that Bladesworn was better I said at least they had older traits reworked in which Virtuoso did not.

ANET comes up with bad idea all the time, one dodge nerf on mirage, vindicator with one dodge mechanic, massive buff on SA, removing IP for chrono for the longest time, giving alacrity to staff ambush on mirage, mirage cloak itself. 

Fact is whether bladesworn is bad or not that isn't the argument, the argument is it had more thought on it, whether its bad or not thats a different conversation.

[Puck.3697]

14 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Sorry I didn't know that this was a Warrior thread I must be in the wrong section. The fact is at least warriors got old traits reworked for Flow whereas Virtuoso did not that is a fact.

I did not say that Bladesworn was better I said at least they had older traits reworked in which Virtuoso did not.

ANET comes up with bad idea all the time, one dodge nerf on mirage, vindicator with one dodge mechanic, massive buff on SA, removing IP for chrono for the longest time, giving alacrity to staff ambush on mirage, mirage cloak itself. 

Fact is whether bladesworn is bad or not that isn't the argument, the argument is it had more thought on it, whether its bad or not thats a different conversation.

yes.. but the point is.. how do u know that virts Traits arent Rewritten now?, we dont, ur Comments are only valid if Anet actually do NOTHING with the data they collected over the beta. which is Unlikely.

However. Bladesworns Careless Functionally Bad and a Carbon Copy of other burst builds in the game.

Its gonna cause Warrior at a fundamental level to be nerfed repeatively to slot a over the top mechanic into. if Bladesworn turns Out bad. its about to take the other 3 Speccs of Warrior to the grave with it. and thats the fundamental Difference here. bladesworns Mechanic is going to require severe nerfs to core Warrior weapons, Warriors Sustained Damage and More. which means we risk becoming the next elementalist.. where evenif the new elites bad it dont matter because its prior options just got even worse to push it into the game.

to say Bladesworns Design is even "half decent" is Wrong. because of those above reasons. its a Gimmicky and holds far higher risks then rewards realistically.

Virt could become something good.

bladesworns very unlikely to be a Positive outcome for the proffession overall however.

Over the top mechanics Never are good for any proffession.

putting 420k Damage on 1 ability is Easy.. you could do that to virt tomorrow and bam u have a Bladesworn.. cause currently thats the only identity the specc actually has. Dragon trigger needs gutting before live Litterally. It needs to go in the bin and gunsaber just needs to be a basic 5 ability Weapon and Core bursts Need to come back.

Then bladesworn would be good.

nothing to do with it being "warrior forums" im giving u a example.. to why i dont think bladesworn is good Design... i agree virt isnt thje best either.. but bladesworn is Just as bad.. and throwing gyros at elementalists isnt any better either.

their all Pretty bland. it punchjing PvE crap for 420k DPS for a Identity.. doesnt make it deep design. its very likely virts Traits will be rewritten just like bladesworns thats fundamentally a bad answer... Bladesworn had extra Development time before show casing. The same as the last 3 will be.. Each wave wil be more complete then the last just by design of how the beta testings going.

we're jkust basically testing it at whatever stage of development it turns up at.. for it to then go away and keep being developed.. the development of Virt hasnt ended..

Its Daggers being Bad.. doesnt mean it isnt a mechanic. it just means it wasnt Correct when we saw it.. but they have like 7 months to Change the fundamental Dislikes of them.

Like if all virts missing is effectively

beefing up the Daggers abit more to make them more distinctual.

Change the shatters to work like GS auto attacks (instant hits not projectile)

and Rewriting its Old Traits to fuinction with the specc properly.

I'd imagine that'll all be fixed by EoD Launch. if it isnt.. i dont actually know the point of the betaing lol, ontop of that.. the last 3 are about to completely decimate both these 3 and the prior 3 as they'll get the most development time on that thought pattern.

so if thats the case.. i'll imagine all 6 of these proffessions are dead and we should all be rerolling thief, Ranger, Engineer.

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Salt Mode.3780]

Looking at Mesmer history which is a long one is Virtuoso most likely wont get the attention it needs. The only reason why Warriors are at this horrid state is because they decided to nerf ALL CC skills to do no dmg when literally that is half of warrior's kit. Other then that Warriors had dominated for years prior to the kitten dmg reduction patch.

There is a higher chance for warriors to get worked on then Mesmers as history serves. Just look at all the patch notes, its there black and white. Mesmers had more consistent nerfs more then any other class with little to no compensation. Ele might actually take a close spot as well. 

The worse part is they nerfed the core traits for Mesmers cuz the E-specs were utilizing it too well, then when that didn't work they nerfed the E-spec itself leaving BOTH parts nerfed with nothing to compensate. 

You wanna take a closer look to how underwhelming some of the Mesmer traits are compared to other classes?

Edited September 20, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[AXLIB.8425]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

im saying no "may" about it.. im saying unless the balance fundamentally changes they wont be better. im sorry, but creating bladesworn I.E Berserker 2.0 isnt fixing the problems warrior currently has in the slightest.. if anything it makes them worse because of how glassy that build is gonna be realistically.

Heres currently whats written over the bladesworn forum.

Positives:

• It looks cool

Negativs:

• No Weapon Swap
• No Normal Burst
• Forced to play a Weapon (Gunsaber)
• All cool new stuff is gated behind staying in place for 5s.
• Whats the point of Ammo synergy when we dont have Kill Shot and Rifle is still a terrible weapon?
• What is that Spec even for?

Not gonna Lie. it doesnt look like their much happier.... if the only positive u can give ur new elite is "it looks cool".. im sorry but it isnt "Deep". No ones talking about how Awesome bladesworn looks. they're all memeing on 350k Damage in 1 strike lol.

Im sorry, but unless they suprise us with some sorta Rework to some Serious Fundamental Issues in proffessions, these elites arent "great". or ""deep thought"... their different grades of how Flashy it looks..

Elementalists got Gyros.. cool.

Warriors got a Holoforge on a New resource and Several times more trade offs to pay for it. awesome

Willbender a Failure of a Experiment of throwing thief at Guardian at variable Angles for Results.awesome

Revenant Forced into situations of Using Specific Utility abilities they may not even want but use just to get back the other Side of the ability Awesome.

Mesmers Gained the ability to target swap. Awesome.

Necromancers I'd actually argue harbinger is actually pretty cool, i think its trade offs currently are a wee bit too strong to work in SPVP though.. Blight isnt a well thought out mechanic and the Exilirs are the most boring part to the specc. but look powerful for PvE atleast.

from a SPVP Standpoint.. these just arent stronger then our current elites, they are actually "fair" while currently none of the elites are.. none of the current elites have trade offs realistically outside Mirage which only came in because they decided to butcher the Specc and now they wanna introduce elites with proper trade offs?..

bladesworn wont even be able to functionally put kitten CC into a DPS build for PvE lol because they Nerf hammered CC Abilities DPS Capability all togehter lol, the restrictions are Harsh. the trade offs are pretty hefty too and currently. that just puts em at a Disadvantage.

We were all saying how "OP" Willbender would be.. before we saw how bad it was.. i reckon when we reliese Spellbreaker will just decimate a Bladesworn We'll reliese the same for these other speccs too. Bladesworn offers soem funny memes to come. but its Damage is getting nerfed

Doing some Quick math

420k DPS per 5 seconds is 84k DPS... unless the Damage fall off is So dramatically high that they fall to normal Levels, Ur looking at a proffession thats gonna turn the current top DPS Capabilities into Garbage realistically.. theres just no way its happening.

I bet by release that thing hits for 100k Tops realistically.

except you can't fit bladesworn into 2 grandmaster trait like you can with virtuoso, 1 trait that change maximum clone count to 5 and 1 trait that make you keep your clone count outside of combat.

[Puck.3697]

44 minutes ago, AXLIB.8425 said:

except you can't fit bladesworn into 2 grandmaster trait like you can with virtuoso, 1 trait that change maximum clone count to 5 and 1 trait that make you keep your clone count outside of combat.

but u can..

PvE Yes? - Pick Grandmaster number 2

PvE No? - Pick Grandmaster 1.

Litterally how can u say this about bladesworn?..

Bladesworns Grandmaster traits:

 

Major Grandmaster x25px Daring Dragon   Dragon Slash has a lower maximum charge level but reenters Dragon Trigger if you can pay the flow cost. Major Grandmaster x25px Immortal Dragon   Dragon Slash heals you for a percentage of the damage dealt. Major Grandmaster x25px Unyielding Dragon   Dragon Slash becomes unblockable, ignores blindness, and stuns foes on hit.
Lets have a Look at this. Grandmaster 1 is a all going choice in SPVP, u aint gonna choose the other 2, because Dragon slash is just too long at a full cast to use realistically... the Increase per Point is to Drastically Different otherwise, Firing off at 1 does 2k dmg. firing at 5 does 420k DPS.. which means The ability isnt worth casting at a low So the likelyhood is in PvP the Ultimate burst would be Dragon Slash 1 and then Dragon slash Reach on the backend of it. Either 1 or 2 Will be PvE Meta, Either the Double Burst would be higher DPS, or the Single full burst will be.. which ever wins decides the entire role. So yah. u boil ur Grandmaster traits down to A in PvE and B in PvP.. theres 0 Choice here. lets break down some more Major Master x25px Fierce as Fire   Using the final round of ammo on an ammunition skill drops a flame shell that burns nearby foes. Major Master x25px Lush Forest   Using the final round of ammo on an ammunition skill recharges the recharge of all equipped skills. Major Master x25px Unshakable Mountain   Using the final round of ammo on an ammunition skill grants barrier.               Right, the fact its basically 100% power eliminates 1, its just not gonna be a good enough condi build to do this.3 is Self only so useless in PvE Enviroments. so that leaves 2 for PvE. Bladesworn has no Self sustain so 3 becomes Mandatory if u have any hope of realistically holding onto any survivability on a realistic Scale so Again. pick B if ur PvE Pick C if ur PvP. Major Adept x25px River's Flow 5 Incoming healing increased. Healing yourself increases flow rate. Regeneration effects do not trigger flow rate increase Major Adept x25px Swift as the Wind 5 Movement skills grant swiftness and increase flow rate. Major Adept x25px Unseen Sword   Swapping weapons strikes all nearby foes. Will not activate out of combat unless an enemy is within range               now we're at this point. again entirely down to Balancing in PvE. given the fact the Specc basically fundamentally works around Dragon Trigger as its primary damage dealer.. B will be the obvious Choice. While A Will be the only choice PvP Wise because again bladesworn as 0 internal Ability to sustain damage.. so strengthing the warriors heasl is the obvious choice ESPICALLY given the fact Warriors have the best healing ability in the entire game.. Adding to that is massive effectively. Bladesworns traits are EXTREMELY 1 Dimensional. Like to try andf say bladesworns traits are thought out well is not the case at all.. the PvP build is very OBVIOUS.. and Effectively in PvE the traits do the same thing.. effectively meaning balance will Declare 1 the winner. i dunno why people think bladesworm is so thought out realistically.. its very 1 dimensional, it offers 0 hybridity, 0 Utility 0 Combos its a proffession with all its damage baked in 1 Ability.. with 0 Modifers for other abilities.. everythings baseline damage wise effectively. 0 Cool interactions with Pistol. 0 Cool interactions with gunsabers base abilities. Everything about Dragons Trigger.. its a One trick pony and people just banking on it to carry the specc Single handerly. you can physically see how far they've had to already strip this specc down to make it function.. THeres litterally barely any DPS Gains to any part of the kits.. or any change up to how the kit functions.. because they cant have anything but dragons trigger effectively delievering the damage. if Bladesworn Wanted to be good: it needs More Traits with fundamentally change up how the Abilities ammo systems works. It needs to keep its Core weapon Burst ability. Gunsaber needs more focus on its core abilities.. and not entirely in dragons trigger. eitgher way, this is derailing the topic exclsively talking warrior.. my point is I dont think any Specc should realistically be looking at "my speccs the worse in EoD" and More at fundamentally these Elites across the board Are pretty awful.. i dont find any of the elites Well built entirely. And they all need rethinking realistically, Virtuoso has a good concept but lacks Distinction for its Dagger mechanic, It needs changing up. imho i was hoping Daggers would Function Less bursty and More consistent... Maybe change up how u stack the daggers to Use them as a Abilities aimed at Windows of Opportunity. they need to work like GS Auto attacks and not Projectile based DPS as it makes the Entire Specc too counterable to ever work in SPVP. Greatsword needs reworking.. use this Specc to give Mesmer a Strong fully ranged build. (i pressume they already have by now) Rewrite Traits to function with daggers while using the specc. And if ur gonna call em "blade songs" atleast have some Musical Animation to them.. currently the "song" part has 0 Relevance to the identity of the abilities. One of the current outcries on magic user forums (mesmer, elementalist and necromancer) are lack of Ranged magic themed Builds.. dagger actually is a good Chance at giving Ranged Gameplay to Mesmers.. Capitalize on it and it'll sell. 1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said: Looking at Mesmer history which is a long one is Virtuoso most likely wont get the attention it needs. The only reason why Warriors are at this horrid state is because they decided to nerf ALL CC skills to do no dmg when literally that is half of warrior's kit. Other then that Warriors had dominated for years prior to the kitten dmg reduction patch. There is a higher chance for warriors to get worked on then Mesmers as history serves. Just look at all the patch notes, its there black and white. Mesmers had more consistent nerfs more then any other class with little to no compensation. Ele might actually take a close spot as well.  The worse part is they nerfed the core traits for Mesmers cuz the E-specs were utilizing it too well, then when that didn't work they nerfed the E-spec itself leaving BOTH parts nerfed with nothing to compensate.  You wanna take a closer look to how underwhelming some of the Mesmer traits are compared to other classes?   I'd argue theres Lots of reasons why warrior has fallen off but yes the Overall Nerf continously to the CC weapon sets defintly was one of the nails. but lets be realistic here. Berserker was Never Looked after, it was bad at the launch and was turned into a PvE only option and never looked back at. Spellbreaker was a Improvement. but not really and again never looked back at. While other proffessions gained more and more power creep, Anet do nothing but call Warriors the "balancing bar for other proffessions" yet dont Bring other proffessions downt ot he same level as it. we talk about Mirage suffering like warrior, yet Mirage has been used and Won throughout multiple ATs Monthly ATs and Tournaments.. yet Warriors remain at 0 Representation at the same level.. which does distinctly Put a dynamic there. Mirage is in a better place then Warrior is effectively.. or is atleast in the top players eyes. Saying we dominated for the first half has Zero relevance realistically, because we fell off and they've done nothing to try and even remotely restore Warrior. Most core Speccs have taken major blows in viability due to especcs Mesmers are defintly not alone there, but Mirage is Still competitively strong in SPVP and fundamentally used unlike several proffessions. and Core Shatter mesmer still won the 2v2 Tournaments. Mesmer representation is still far higher then Warriors, Staff Sidenoder Mirage and Interupt Mirage are both still strong builds. 1 dodge should mechanically never exist, and it defintly is a Irritant. but effectively it only ever killed Power Mirage. Mirage is ironically one of the reasons Spellbreaker cant get into meta Lmfao, your Interupt Capability with Power block is crazy strong when utilised well.. u can Litterally just stop ur opponant ever getting a heal off as ur Cond iDamage Shreds their health. and lets be honest, none of the especcs will get the real attention they need lol, a few will end up broken compared to others..and will sit that way for most of the expansion. its a Roll of the dice which one of us end up in that state.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Salt Mode.3780]

Again I remind you this isn't a warrior thread all these concerns should be posted onto warrior thread not Mesmer. It seems to me you are more concerned about Warriors then you are about Mesmers and this is not the place for it.

If you want to talk about Berserker then I would address you with Chrono, aside from PvE chrono sees no real play in competitive game mode and it has been for years so berserkers are not alone in that regards. In terms of sPvP you also need to look at what the team compositions are especially in 2 v 2s.

Again you are going back and forth on how bad warrior is when in reality everything I highlighted wasn't about warriors being good its about how much more worked they have gotten vs Virtuoso. Virtuoso is literally core but no clones slapped with 1200 range and thats it.

 

Also with the changes to condi how torment works and confusion condi mirage also got severely affected so now the 1 dodge now heavily affects both power and condi.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Puck.3697]

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again I remind you this isn't a warrior thread all these concerns should be posted onto warrior thread not Mesmer. It seems to me you are more concerned about Warriors then you are about Mesmers and this is not the place for it.

My concerns with all of them 😛 as i've said multiple times.. They're all bad.. the one i replied to was stating BS isnt limited on traits which i was simply disproving.

6 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

In terms of sPvP you also need to look at what the team compositions are especially in 2 v 2s.

There are severa lplayers who are Notorious for doing really well with Shatter core Mesmer Shortz Gaming being one of them, hes won several things with Power Core Mesmer effectively.

7 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again you are going back and forth on how bad warrior is when in reality everything I highlighted wasn't about warriors being good its about how much more worked they have gotten vs Virtuoso. Virtuoso is literally core but no clones slapped with 1200 range and thats it.

Considering Warriors hit the floor and never gotten back up.. i'd argue if there has bee nany work it hasnt been noticable in the slightest.. Warriors have been continously bad effectively.... throughout berserker and into spellbreaker while mirage has atleast gone up and down showing some form of changes effectively.

9 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Also with the changes to condi how torment works and confusion condi mirage also got severely affected so now the 1 dodge now heavily affects both power and condi.

yes but Mirage is still upheld competitive at the very top of Competitive SPVP alot more then Spellbreaker has realistically... shown by the representation of the speccs.. and you can try blame "popularity".. but theres more warriors in the game then there are Mesmers.

Its Just Pro players tend to Play mirage and not play Warriors in serious Competitive gameplay.

but its this case for lots of things I.E

Elementalist.. hasnt been looked after in SPVP WvWvW or PvE... tempest and Weaver are Non-meta in PvE, they're both mediocre in SPVP. and neither have much presencve at all in WvWvW..

Lets face it, Anet only look after a Select few proffessions overall.. the rest of us are left somewhere up the ladder.

its not by miracle Necromancers and guardians are Majorities.

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Again its not that Mesmers are strong its that things get nerf or things get removed that allow Mesmers to get back into the flow of things like any other classes. Remember how meme MM necros are and now how strong they are now? 

Point is between Warriors and Mesmers whoever starts seeing better numbers you be sure that Mesmers will be the first to get nerfed before Warriors.

The only other class I would agree on in terms of overnerfing is Eles. 

 

Also in terms of swapping Bladesworn isnt the only exclusive class that cant weapon swap in combat. Engis with Kits and Ele with weapons. So in terms of being concerned about weapon swap sigils, im pretty sure they work somehow.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Obtena.7952]

On 9/17/2021 at 5:57 PM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

How does it alter the core mechanic in a meaningful way...? Core used clones as resource to shatter....Virtuoso uses blades to shatter...they are both "resources". I think you are the one that is caught up by the flashy "blade" to call it a mechanic. 

Actually, it alters it significantly because blades don't disappear out of combat. You might not think it does, but it WILL change the way people play this class. 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Salt Mode.3780]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, it alters it significantly because blades don't disappear out of combat. You might not think it does, but it WILL change the way people play this class. 

Again its resource management not a new mechanic. At the end of the day once those stored blades are used you are back to just core mechanics but ranged...Also having stored blades is a double edge sword. People can also see that you have 5 blades stocked up and know how to dodge/interrupt your shatters accordingly. Aside from using the utility to get 5 blades up on a high CD only other ways is to get it through combat, its no different then necros with shroud...

Edited September 21, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again its resource management not a new mechanic. At the end of the day once those stored blades are used you are back to just core mechanics but ranged...Also having stored blades is a double edge sword. People can also see that you have 5 blades stocked up and know how to dodge/interrupt your shatters accordingly.

That changes nothing I've said. Especs provide an alternative way to play the class ... and the fact that blades don't disappear out of combat WILL change how people (at least knowledgeable ones) play it. It's also going to make you more recognizeable in combat, to everyone, not just epxerienced players ... so anyone that thinks it's not going to make people play in a different way isn't really paying attention here. Whether you label it resource management or however you assess it as 'not new mechanic' ... doesn't change that fact. 

I mean, if you think it's not a good 'resource management' or 'unique' enough for you to appreciate it ... you don't have to use it ... but make no mistake, as an espec, it accomplishes the goal of giving people a different way to play. 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Salt Mode.3780]

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That changes nothing I've said. Especs provide an alternative way to play the class ... and the fact that blades don't disappear out of combat WILL change how people (at least knowledgeable ones) play it. It's also going to make you more recognizeable in combat, to everyone, not just epxerienced players ... so anyone that thinks it's not going to make people play in a different way isn't really paying attention here. Whether you label it resource management or however you assess it as 'not new mechanic' ... doesn't change that fact. 

I mean, if you think it's not a good 'resource management' or 'unique' enough for you to appreciate it ... you don't have to use it ... but make no mistake, as an espec, it accomplishes the goal of giving people a different way to play. 

I mean you still play the same, gather resource shatter rinse and repeat. Being able to hold resources is just convenience not mandatory. Under no circumstances did anyone say that being able to hold blades was bad, but if you are using this one thing holding Virtuoso as being "unique" when there are other problems that makes being able to hold blades so minor then you are missing the bigger picture of why people have issues with Virtuoso.

Yea this spec was tested and played so things that are mentioned are more validated then assumptions before beta testing.

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I mean you still play the same,

That says more about the player than the design of the espec. 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Raizel.1839]

Replace Virtuoso with Willbender and I agree.

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That says more about the player than the design of the espec. 

For sure it is the player because a person who has stuck with a class since the release of the game def knows more then the average white knight that goes around trying to invalidate actual concerns.

Thanks tho~

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780