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Imagine if Virtuoso got even a fraction of effort that bladesworn/vindicator/catalyst got.


Levetty.1279

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10 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

For sure it is the player

 

Perfect ... that's exactly the point. Whether someone assesses blades 'unique' or 'new enough' to deem it a valid espec mechanic is irrelevant. The goal of the espec is to provide people with a different way to play the class ... Virtuoso DOES this. That's not debatable. 

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6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Perfect ... that's exactly the point. Whether someone assesses blades 'unique' or 'new enough' to deem it a valid espec mechanic is irrelevant. The goal of the espec is to provide people with a different way to play the class ... Virtuoso DOES this. That's not debatable. Maybe you believe being hung up on definitions or semantics is a compelling argument to complain about things you don't like about it. The history of the game suggests otherwise. 

Lol reading all the posts from other e-specs its already known what you are going to say, but let me clarify this to you.

1. Blades is a resource which is not new to the game.

2. Blades are essentially the same as clones as in they r used the same way as clones are, nothing has changed about them aside from you being able to carry them out of combat.

There is a clear distinction between resource and mechanics. If it is used the same way as before then it is no different. So since you are so knowledgeable explain to me how Virtuoso is able to allow different gameplay then core Mesmer, being cloneless is a no brainer but other then that....? 

Let me answer that for you being able to cast shatter at a safe range but you could do that with clones as well in PvE. I don't even want to mention competitive play because if you are being hit melee range its no different then using clones to shatter at melee. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Lol reading all the posts from other e-specs its already known what you are going to say, but let me clarify this to you.

1. Blades is a resource which is not new to the game.

2. Blades are essentially the same as clones as in they r used the same way as clones are, nothing has changed about them aside from you being able to carry them out of combat.

There is a clear distinction between resource and mechanics. If it is used the same way as before then it is no different. 

 

Well, that's just a matter of opinion and personal experience.  They definitely changed the way I play, in both PVP and PVE. So it simply depends on how the player takes advantage of the difference. 

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9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, that's just a matter of opinion. They definitely changed the way I play, in both PVP and PVE. So it simply depends on how the player takes advantage of the difference. I mean, what's the goal here? The Virtuoso is going to be released with blades instead of clones. 

Again that is your opinion because it changes the way YOU play so congrats to YOU. Again I state blades is no different then how clones are utilized. They are both RESOURCES that FUNCTIONS the same way. This is not an opinion this is a FACT. The whole premises of this thread is that "Imagine if Virtuoso got even a fraction of effort that bladesworn/vindicator/catalyst got" which isn't far off from the truth.

Bladesworn had core traits that affected adrenaline to be worked with flow.

Vindicator has one dodge but ways to effectively utilize that one dodge as well as being able to regain it back.

In terms of Virtuoso there are many core traits that could've been effectively worked on like how flow works in adrenaline traits.

I don't even want to mention how there is no weapon CD trait or the fact that psionic is just there as a tooltip with nothing to affect it neither from core traits or Virtuoso.

Nothing I have posted is opinionated.

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3 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again that is your opinion because it changes the way YOU play so congrats to YOU. Again I state blades is no different then how clones are utilized. They are both RESOURCES that FUNCTIONS the same way. This is not an opinion this is a FACT. The whole premises of this thread is that "Imagine if Virtuoso got even a fraction of effort that bladesworn/vindicator/catalyst got" which isn't far off from the truth.

Except they can be played different than clones, which is the point of the espec. 

Quote

Nothing I have posted is opinionated.

So you aren't disagreeing with me that Virtuoso changes how people play? because it seems like you are with your 'resource management' argument. I mean, I don't really get your beef here ... The point of the espec is to allow people a different way to play ... Virtuoso does that. Any argument about 'it's not a mechanic' or 'it's not unique/new/etc ...' is pretty irrelevant here. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except they can be played different than clones, which is the point of the espec. 

So you aren't disagreeing with me that Virtuoso changes how people play? because it seems like you are with your 'resource management' argument. I mean, I don't really get your beef here ... The point of the espec is to allow people a different way to play ... Virtuoso does that. Any argument about 'it's not a mechanic' or 'it's not unique/new/etc ...' is pretty irrelevant here. 

First off lets backtrack to why this even started, you quoted me in a text saying that again I say blades are no different then clones because they are both resources that wasn't the whole conversation towards this thread. 

Second there are many other posts but you decided to pick off one you thought you can start something with but ended no where besides saying "Virtuoso changes how people play". 

Lastly arguments regarding it being mechanical or not or unique/new/etc is more relevant on this TOPIC THREAD "Imagine if Virtuoso got even a fraction of effort that bladesworn/vindicator/catalyst got," because it is talking about the design aspect of things that goes deeper into mechanics and uniqueness, the time and effort spent on the class. 

If you want to argue that Virtuoso do provide a "newer" gameplay this isn't the thread to post it in. Stop picking bones out of eggs lol. 

So can we please get back to the topic and not deviate more because you decided to pick a random post to pick bones out of when you are not even within the context of the situation.

Edited by Salt Mode.3780
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Well, considering no one has any information about how much time Anet spends developing individual espec, the thread topic as a premise for the argument that Virtuoso is lacking in design is absurd to begin with. 

The value of an espec has nothing to do with individual's assumptions about the time spent developing it or their personal criteria of WHATEVER factors they choose to cherrypick to make their case. The value of the espec is simply about how it allows people to play the class in a way that's different than other specs ... and Virtuoso does that and does it in a meaningful way to make it a worthy choice for players. Well ... at least it did for me and other people I talked to about it.  

So again, the beef here is ... you have an issue with blades not being a new enough mechanic? OK ... I'm good with that because it's a pretty trivial thing to complain about. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, considering no one has any information about how much time Anet spends developing individual espec, the thread topic as a premise for the argument that Virtuoso is lacking in design is absurd to begin with. 

The value of an espec has nothing to do with individual's assumptions about the time spent developing it or their personal criteria of WHATEVER factors they choose to cherrypick to make their case. The value of the espec is simply about how it allows people to play the class in a way that's different than other specs ... and Virtuoso does that. 

So again, the beef here is ... you have an issue with blades not being a new enough mechanic? OK ... I'm good with that because it's a pretty trivial thing to complain about. 

Again you only read one part of a WHOLE thread and decided to pick a fight on. Again no one is saying that time wasn't spent on it, it the thread says effort. You can spend A LOT of time on something but there is clear distinctions whether or not EFFORT was put into it. For example nerfing a DODGE on mirage is a brainless NO EFFORT nerf. Again the key word is not time, its EFFORT. Forums are made for people to voice their concerns and with things to back up their concerns. 

What is absurd is you coming here "cherry picking" one comment and decide to negate the whole thread.

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8 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again you only read one part of a WHOLE thread and decided to pick a fight on. Again no one is saying that time wasn't spent on it, it the thread says effort.

Effort, time, money, whatever ... no one knows how much of any of those things Anet expended on the Virtuoso design, so the premise  something wasn't enough and that leads to Virtuoso lacking in design doesn't make sense. 

The truth is that it doesn't matter, because if Anet's goal is to provide a meaningful variation for playing a class through an espec which makes it a worthy choice for players ... Virtuoso does that. There isn't anything dismissive here. The design isn't lacking because as you say, AT WORST, it's just clones with a different name, which is the main complaint of the thread, even if the premise is absurd. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Effort, time, money, whatever ... no one knows how much of any of those things Anet expended on the Virtuoso design, so the premise  something wasn't enough and that leads to Virtuoso lacking in design doesn't make sense. 

The truth is that it doesn't matter, because if Anet's goal is to provide a meaningful variation for playing a class through an espec which makes it a worthy choice for players ... Virtuoso does that. Pedantic arguments about 'not mechanic enough' just have no value here. 

Again what you think is valued is your own opinion. If you have read through the posts there were legitimate concerns that regard gameplay towards virtuoso. No one is dwelling on the topic whether or not they spent time or effort or "money" towards Virtuoso. This is beta in which people do hope that their voice and concern goes through to devs in hoping somethings change. 

You are stuck up on the fact that YOU can't handle people who have different opinions towards why a class is bad or what needs adjusting. Whether or not it gets implemented isn't on YOU but the devs to filter out. Remember this is BETA and this is where concerns regardless if they are opinionated gets voiced out. STOP PICKING BONES FROM EGGS.

Edited by Salt Mode.3780
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11 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again what you think is valued is your own opinion. If you have read through the posts there were legitimate concerns that regard gameplay towards virtuoso. No one is dwelling on the topic whether or not they spent time or effort or "money" towards Virtuoso. This is beta in which people do hope that their voice and concern goes through to devs in hoping somethings change. 

You are stuck up on the fact that YOU can't handle people who have different opinions towards why a class is bad or what needs adjusting. Whether or not it gets implemented isn't on YOU but the devs to filter out. Remember this is BETA and this is where concerns regardless if they are opinionated gets voiced out. STOP PICKING BONES FROM EGGS.

Ok, so going back to the great opening post of this thread: "Are we still pretending 'no clones' is an elite spec mechanic?"

Virtuoso and its "no clones" approach IS a mechanic. It does change how the class is played and it does it due to change in the mechanics of the class. You might dislike that change, but it doesn't somehow make it any less of an espec mechanic change. Doesn't seem like "cherry picking" just because someone answered to your post, seems to me like it's relevant to the very core of this thread. And I don't think anybody tries to tell you that you're not allowed to dislike the espec, but you can dislike it without pretending it doesn't change the mechanics of the class.

 

19 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Forums are made for people to voice their concerns and with things to back up their concerns. 

Sure. But in this case it should be here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99812-virtuoso-feedback-thread-merged/

But it's not there, because "THIS IS NOT A MECHANIC!" (yes, it is a mechanic) is not a concern or a constructive feedback. It's a complaint that does nothing.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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8 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Ok, so going back to the great opening post of this thread: "Are we still pretending 'no clones' is an elite spec mechanic?"

Virtuoso and its "no clones" approach IS a mechanic. It does change how the class is played and it does it due to change in the mechanics of the class. You might dislike that change, but it doesn't somehow make it any less of an espec mechanic change. Doesn't seem like "cherry picking" just because someone answered to your post, seems to me like it's relevant to the very core of this thread.

No it doesn't change how blades work because blades again are used as ammo to shatter like clones. What are blades for? Shattering. What are clones for? Again Shattering considering most clone related traits were removed and or nerfed. The only e-spec that deviated from clones just being used to shatter is Mirage because of how IH and ambush works. 

My one post wasn't just for the opening post of the thread but it was a stance on that blades work the same way as clones do in a way they are both ammos utilizing Shatters. 

Again another repetitive post, no one is complaining that Mesmers are cloneless, is the fact that there were changes that would not affect some of the core traits. For example and this is a small one "Sharper Images", since there is no clones how would this trait work in conjunction with blades. 

At least for Bladesworn adrenaline traits were worked on to work with Flow.

Vindicator's one dodge has traits the directly affect it.

Again picking bones from eggs.

 

Edited by Salt Mode.3780
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17 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

No it doesn't change how blades work because blades again are used as ammo to shatter like clones.

No, that's not true. You are ignoring some of the BIGGEST differences between blades and clones to argue they aren't different. That's just not honest. Those differences CAN result in people playing the class differently. If the whole premise of the thread is that Virtuoso is lacking, it's definitely NOT because of claims that there are no differences between how Virtuoso plays with blades vs. other especs and clones.

or that somehow, blades isn't a valid mechanic because they mimic clones ... yet somehow, clones ARE a valid mechanic. 

17 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

For example and this is a small one "Sharper Images", since there is no clones how would this trait work in conjunction with blades. 

I don't get this  issue ... Anet made lots of changes to existing traits in Ranger for Soulbeast. Is there doubt they would do the same for Mesmer/Virtuoso?

Edited by Obtena.7952
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10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, that's not true. You are ignoring some of the BIGGEST differences between blades and clones to argue they aren't different. That's just not honest. Those differences CAN result in people playing the class differently. 

The concept of blades being used as a ammo for shatter is no different then the concept of using clones to shatter this is a fact. So can you explain to me the "BIGGEST" differences between blades and clones. 

Clones - 

Pros:

- Able to serve as a distraction from the real caster ( which this hasen't happened since Mirage detargetting due to WvW and food buffs etc. )

- Able to take at least 1 hit from things that require line of sight skills. 

- Works with whatever traits that directly affect clones like "Sharper Images"

Cons:

- Often misses targets when shatter, dies before it reaches target.

- Can lead a bread crumb when you are trying to escape in stealth ( when bringing deceptive evasion) Sometimes for some weird reason can also reveal you in some cases.

- Clones die when the target is dead ( Mirage can retarget your clones right before your target dies to another)

 

Blades -

Pros:

- Able to hold out of combat

- Enables sure hit that clones can't 

Cons: 

- Players are able to see your ammos knowing what your burst is window is going to be

- No distraction nor can it help mitigate LoS skills.

- Cannot benefit from traits that affect clones directly like Sharper Images.

It is literally a reverse on the pros and cons of each of them but at the end of the day it boils down on shatter usage and how effective it is again both are ammo used to shatter. Unless you can tell me that blades serve something else besides using solely on shatter.

Yea the concept of ammo system is a mechanic that is agreeable.

Edited by Salt Mode.3780
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5 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

The concept of blades being used as a ammo for shatter is no different then the concept of using clones to shatter this is a fact. 

Yup ... no one is arguing the concept isn't the same, so continually repeating has no relevance here. I'm saying how you can use them is different and that leads to a different way to play the class. Can I explain how they are different? I already did .. multiple times ... and those difference do enable people to play Virtuoso differently, which is the point of the concept of an espec. If Virtuoso is lacking, it's NOT because it's too similar to clones. 

The pro's and con's aren't relevant here. The discussion is about if Virtuoso is a valid espec. People think it's not because blades = clones. That's not true. 

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On 9/17/2021 at 2:57 PM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

How does it alter the core mechanic in a meaningful way...? Core used clones as resource to shatter....Virtuoso uses blades to shatter...they are both "resources". I think you are the one that is caught up by the flashy "blade" to call it a mechanic. 

Again ill quote myself on how this all started, if you had READ it clearly I never stated that it doesn't change the way Mesmer plays you just assumed based on "How does it alter core mechanic in a meaningful way." Again it goes back to it being an AMMO system that did not change. Again I'll stand by to what I said even to my previous post they are both "resources" being cloneless is the new thing blades however is not. 

 

And regarding to Sharper images YES there is a difference between working on older traits vs ALREADY PUTTING a NEW TRAIT that is similar what Sharper Images do. Which is Jagged Minds. They both function as a bleed on crit. 

Edited by Salt Mode.3780
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3 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again ill quote myself on how this all started, if you had READ it clearly I never stated that it doesn't change the way Mesmer plays you just assumed based on "How does it alter core mechanic in a meaningful way." Again it goes back to it being an AMMO system that did not change. Again I'll stand by to what I said even to my previous post they are both "resources" being cloneless is the new thing blades however is not. 

Right ... so your whole hang up here is that blades aren't 'new' enough. That's irrelevant to assess the value of Virtuoso as a valid espec. You can quote yourself all you like, but Virtuoso is just as valid an espec as any other, regardless of whatever pro's and cons you think it has because it enables people to play differently. 

You're argument here is pretty flawed .. you want to complain about the performance of Virtuoso ... by relating that to what literally amounts to a change in wording because you think blades = clones. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right ... so your whole hang up here is that blades aren't 'new' enough. That's irrelevant to assess the value of Virtuoso as a valid espec. YOu can quote yourself all you like, but Virtuoso is just as valid an espec as any other, regardless of whatever pro's and cons you think it has because it enables people to play differently. 

Actually no the whole discussion is you deciding to comment on a post I made a single post which I have other posts here that isn't JUST about that. Again where did I say that Virtuoso isn't a valid espec...? Again you are hung up by that one comment I made and started this WHOLE fiasco like you would normally do on other threads.

Also stop editing to try to correct your posts its annoying when trying to quote your texts.

Edited by Salt Mode.3780
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Just now, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Actually no the whole discussion is you deciding to comment on a post I made a single post which I have other posts here that isn't JUST about that. Again where did I say that Virtuoso isn't a valid espec...? Again you are hung up by that one comment I made and started this WHOLE fiasco like you would normally do on other threads.

I'm not hung up on anything, but that's not really fair ... I'm not going to go back and comment on every post you have made in this thread. I commented on that particular post because it's fundamentally wrong ... blades are not the same as clones, because they can play differently and they DO have meaningful differences. That actually DOES go to the heart of the thread topic here, quite literally in fact. 

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On 9/17/2021 at 11:26 PM, Xaylin.1860 said:

It is. But it's simple and therefore has to be backed up with more. Unfortunately, Virtuoso traits are aweful, Utilities are pretty but irrelevant and - probably the worst part -- it lacks synergies with core Mesmer.

Utilities are good, they bring the ranged AoE and focused damage.

I agree the traits need another iteration to make them better  and the new spec needs more synergy with core. After some time and seeying how polished are this new three i do agree now Virtuoso could be better.

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4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't get this  issue ... Anet made lots of changes to existing traits in Ranger for Soulbeast. Is there doubt they would do the same for Mesmer/Virtuoso?

If they were going to do this then Sharpened Images would do what Jagged Mind does instead it does nothing and they made Jagged Mind a Virtuoso trait.

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