Imagine if Virtuoso got even a fraction of effort that bladesworn/vindicator/catalyst got.

[AXLIB.8425]

19 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

but u can..

PvE Yes? - Pick Grandmaster number 2

PvE No? - Pick Grandmaster 1.

Litterally how can u say this about bladesworn?..

Bladesworns Grandmaster traits:

 

Major Grandmaster x25px Daring Dragon   Dragon Slash has a lower maximum charge level but reenters Dragon Trigger if you can pay the flow cost. Major Grandmaster x25px Immortal Dragon   Dragon Slash heals you for a percentage of the damage dealt. Major Grandmaster x25px Unyielding Dragon   Dragon Slash becomes unblockable, ignores blindness, and stuns foes on hit.
Lets have a Look at this. Grandmaster 1 is a all going choice in SPVP, u aint gonna choose the other 2, because Dragon slash is just too long at a full cast to use realistically... the Increase per Point is to Drastically Different otherwise, Firing off at 1 does 2k dmg. firing at 5 does 420k DPS.. which means The ability isnt worth casting at a low So the likelyhood is in PvP the Ultimate burst would be Dragon Slash 1 and then Dragon slash Reach on the backend of it. Either 1 or 2 Will be PvE Meta, Either the Double Burst would be higher DPS, or the Single full burst will be.. which ever wins decides the entire role. So yah. u boil ur Grandmaster traits down to A in PvE and B in PvP.. theres 0 Choice here. lets break down some more Major Master x25px Fierce as Fire   Using the final round of ammo on an ammunition skill drops a flame shell that burns nearby foes. Major Master x25px Lush Forest   Using the final round of ammo on an ammunition skill recharges the recharge of all equipped skills. Major Master x25px Unshakable Mountain   Using the final round of ammo on an ammunition skill grants barrier.               Right, the fact its basically 100% power eliminates 1, its just not gonna be a good enough condi build to do this.3 is Self only so useless in PvE Enviroments. so that leaves 2 for PvE. Bladesworn has no Self sustain so 3 becomes Mandatory if u have any hope of realistically holding onto any survivability on a realistic Scale so Again. pick B if ur PvE Pick C if ur PvP. Major Adept x25px River's Flow 5 Incoming healing increased. Healing yourself increases flow rate. Regeneration effects do not trigger flow rate increase Major Adept x25px Swift as the Wind 5 Movement skills grant swiftness and increase flow rate. Major Adept x25px Unseen Sword   Swapping weapons strikes all nearby foes. Will not activate out of combat unless an enemy is within range               now we're at this point. again entirely down to Balancing in PvE. given the fact the Specc basically fundamentally works around Dragon Trigger as its primary damage dealer.. B will be the obvious Choice. While A Will be the only choice PvP Wise because again bladesworn as 0 internal Ability to sustain damage.. so strengthing the warriors heasl is the obvious choice ESPICALLY given the fact Warriors have the best healing ability in the entire game.. Adding to that is massive effectively. Bladesworns traits are EXTREMELY 1 Dimensional. Like to try andf say bladesworns traits are thought out well is not the case at all.. the PvP build is very OBVIOUS.. and Effectively in PvE the traits do the same thing.. effectively meaning balance will Declare 1 the winner. i dunno why people think bladesworm is so thought out realistically.. its very 1 dimensional, it offers 0 hybridity, 0 Utility 0 Combos its a proffession with all its damage baked in 1 Ability.. with 0 Modifers for other abilities.. everythings baseline damage wise effectively. 0 Cool interactions with Pistol. 0 Cool interactions with gunsabers base abilities. Everything about Dragons Trigger.. its a One trick pony and people just banking on it to carry the specc Single handerly. you can physically see how far they've had to already strip this specc down to make it function.. THeres litterally barely any DPS Gains to any part of the kits.. or any change up to how the kit functions.. because they cant have anything but dragons trigger effectively delievering the damage. if Bladesworn Wanted to be good: it needs More Traits with fundamentally change up how the Abilities ammo systems works. It needs to keep its Core weapon Burst ability. Gunsaber needs more focus on its core abilities.. and not entirely in dragons trigger. eitgher way, this is derailing the topic exclsively talking warrior.. my point is I dont think any Specc should realistically be looking at "my speccs the worse in EoD" and More at fundamentally these Elites across the board Are pretty awful.. i dont find any of the elites Well built entirely. And they all need rethinking realistically, Virtuoso has a good concept but lacks Distinction for its Dagger mechanic, It needs changing up. imho i was hoping Daggers would Function Less bursty and More consistent... Maybe change up how u stack the daggers to Use them as a Abilities aimed at Windows of Opportunity. they need to work like GS Auto attacks and not Projectile based DPS as it makes the Entire Specc too counterable to ever work in SPVP. Greatsword needs reworking.. use this Specc to give Mesmer a Strong fully ranged build. (i pressume they already have by now) Rewrite Traits to function with daggers while using the specc. And if ur gonna call em "blade songs" atleast have some Musical Animation to them.. currently the "song" part has 0 Relevance to the identity of the abilities. One of the current outcries on magic user forums (mesmer, elementalist and necromancer) are lack of Ranged magic themed Builds.. dagger actually is a good Chance at giving Ranged Gameplay to Mesmers.. Capitalize on it and it'll sell.

you know i kind of feel bad for you since you spend so much time to write this thing but entirely missed my point. my point is not that Bladesworn trait are so much better then virtuoso trait (it's better, but not by a large margin), but that the entire virtuoso mechanic can be fit into 2 mesmer grandmaster trait while Bladesworn mechanic have enough depth to actually be a e-spec

Edited September 21, 2021 by AXLIB.8425

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, AXLIB.8425 said:

you know i kind of feel bad for you since you spend so much time to write this thing but entirely missed my point. my point is not that Bladesworn trait are so much better then virtuoso trait (it's better, but not by a large margin), but that the entire virtuoso mechanic can be fit into 2 mesmer grandmaster trait while Bladesworn mechanic have enough depth to actually be a e-spec

tbh testing it.. i am correct with my inital thought.

Bladesworn doing 6k Damage on a 5 stack Dragon trigger.. while with 0 Damage modifers on every level Does less damage then Spellbreaker while having less survivability.

its a Group PvE Bot and its Rotation is completely 1 dimensional and Just simply entirely is just about Dragontriggering as many times as possible.

its "mechanic" doesnt exist in the realms of PvP. or open world content.. and Simply hand Players a "slow paced" Rotation with Large reward in PvE. It not only single handerly makes the combat system feel Terrible. but at the same time Its a Raid bot in basically every form

Its entire dragontrigger is pointless to any content in the game barring Raid enviroments, Pistol is useless in SPVP, it loses more mechanics then it gains. it might be flashy.. it might be a gunblade, but its Design is Just a Failure barring a Replacement in raid enviroments to berserker.

it does 45k DPS which is i guess a win.

Catalyst.. is a Worse version of core D/D Lightning Rod Ele in SPVP. but good in PvE

these mechanics Dont function have a Purpose or Reason in SPVP, they're meaningless they basically dont exist, just like virts effectively.

and the traits and Utilities that affect adrenaline like people tried to proclaim rewrite.. they dont. lol.. none of them do Just like virts.. if their susposed to.. its failed to actually happen.

and to top it off, Vindicator.. is terrible in SPVP.

the last 3 will also suck in SPVP These specs are not built to actually compete with HoT or PoF Speccs.. they're basically as strong as core options at best.. if anything they are what the other elites Should be. butthey arent..

Edited September 21, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Gomes.5643]

By all this discussion i shortly want to mention that it is much easier to adjust some damage/cooldown etc values then to will an interesting mechanic into existence.

[Puck.3697]

39 minutes ago, Gomes.5643 said:

By all this discussion i shortly want to mention that it is much easier to adjust some damage/cooldown etc values then to will an interesting mechanic into existence.

Tbh.  The problem isnt the fact a "mechanic" Doesnt exist. the problem is the "mechanic" is Irrelevant to the content.

Daggers is the Mechanic. it doesnt need a Brand new Mechanic.. the Daggers need to be meaningful and More different to Shatters the problem isnt the fact it doesnt have a mechanic, the issue is they're too close to shatters to be distinct and ontop of that they're Worse then core shatters at that.

a Dagger Flying at a player and a Shatter running to the target is the SAME THING, the Daggers needed to be instant Ranged Damage like Greatswords Auto attack effectively the effects need changing up also.

Same with every other Especc. their Mechanics Dont exist in a SPVP Enviroment.. they dissapear into the abyss because these speccs are built to appease a PvE Player and not PvP Players.

power creeping numbers isnt the method forward. Re-working the Daggers and things would be a Long term fix.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Nezekan.2671]

I mean we don't want uncounterabe mechanics, but we also don't want to overdo it.

As it stands, bladesongs both have a cast time and travel time. One has to go. I think cast time is fine, allows counter play. But once you miss the window of countering it, such as dodging, then you should be punished. You should not a get second chance to dodge again while its traveling at you. Give bladesons bullet speeds. Its also fitting for a psionic blade. It's literally not hampered by air or anything.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Nezekan.2671

[Puck.3697]

11 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

I mean we don't want uncounterabe mechanics, but we also don't want to overdo it.

As it stands, bladesongs both have a cast time and travel time. One has to go. I think cast time is fine, allows counter play. But once you miss the window of countering it, such as dodging, then you should be punished. You should not a get second chance to dodge again while its traveling at you. Give bladesons bullet speeds. Its also fitting for a psionic blade. It's literally not hampered by air or anything.

The issue is. would it be uncounterable

u gotta stack 5 Daggers to use the mechanic.

Its still Dodgable.

Its Still blockable.

Cast time is Fine.. being projectile Isnt fine however Makes it too counterable.

[Xaylin.1860]

What a pleasent read on my daily commute ☕

 

Could Bladesongs be improved further? Yes. But I'd rather have it this way than some edgy transformation, an additional F5 that makes it Mesmer+ (pre-nerf Chrono) or a gimmicky feature that doesn't integrate properly into the core class design (Mirage Cloak and Mirrors).

 

I can understand that some people feel it's not enough. But I also feel like many people don't realize that different classes have different restrictions due to their core class mechanics when it comes to game design. Shatters are difficult to work around. Which is why Chrono and Mirage turned out the way they are. Is it "fair"? Nope. But that's what Mesmers got.

 

I think that Virtuoso can work. It is the first time ANet actually tried to alter Shatters which I personally like. Personal taste aside, from a pure gameplay point of view, I still believe traits and the interaction with core are the main issue here. And I also believe that asking for alterations there is more reasonable and likely to matter for its further developement than expecting a full rework of the main features - to avoid the bad M-word - of Virtuoso.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

18 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

What a pleasent read on my daily commute ☕

 

Could Bladesongs be improved further? Yes. But I'd rather have it this way than some edgy transformation, an additional F5 that makes it Mesmer+ (pre-nerf Chrono) or a gimmicky feature that doesn't integrate properly into the core class design (Mirage Cloak and Mirrors).

 

I can understand that some people feel it's not enough. But I also feel like many people don't realize that different classes have different restrictions due to their core class mechanics when it comes to game design. Shatters are difficult to work around. Which is why Chrono and Mirage turned out the way they are. Is it "fair"? Nope. But that's what Mesmers got.

 

I think that Virtuoso can work. It is the first time ANet actually tried to alter Shatters which I personally like. Personal taste aside, from a pure gameplay point of view, I still believe traits and the interaction with core are the main issue here. And I also believe that asking for alterations there is more reasonable and likely to matter for its further developement than expecting a full rework of the main features - to avoid the bad M-word - of Virtuoso.

Chrono - CS

Mirage - Mirage cloak and ambushes

Virt - ?

If you consider virt shatters altered ones than its not the first time ANerf tried to altered them and chrono shatters were the first ones.

[Levetty.1279]

37 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

What a pleasent read on my daily commute ☕

 

Could Bladesongs be improved further? Yes. But I'd rather have it this way than some edgy transformation, an additional F5 that makes it Mesmer+ (pre-nerf Chrono) or a gimmicky feature that doesn't integrate properly into the core class design (Mirage Cloak and Mirrors).

 

I can understand that some people feel it's not enough. But I also feel like many people don't realize that different classes have different restrictions due to their core class mechanics when it comes to game design. Shatters are difficult to work around. Which is why Chrono and Mirage turned out the way they are. Is it "fair"? Nope. But that's what Mesmers got.

 

I think that Virtuoso can work. It is the first time ANet actually tried to alter Shatters which I personally like. Personal taste aside, from a pure gameplay point of view, I still believe traits and the interaction with core are the main issue here. And I also believe that asking for alterations there is more reasonable and likely to matter for its further developement than expecting a full rework of the main features - to avoid the bad M-word - of Virtuoso.

No the issue is that they removed clones and then replaced them with nothing and half assed the rest of the spec. 

 

Imagine if soulbeast didn't have the pet merge and instead just removed Pets and didn't change anything about the traits or skills related to them, that is Virtuoso.

[Mik.3401]

7 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

What a pleasent read on my daily commute ☕

 

Could Bladesongs be improved further? Yes. But I'd rather have it this way than some edgy transformation, an additional F5 that makes it Mesmer+ (pre-nerf Chrono) or a gimmicky feature that doesn't integrate properly into the core class design (Mirage Cloak and Mirrors).

 

I can understand that some people feel it's not enough. But I also feel like many people don't realize that different classes have different restrictions due to their core class mechanics when it comes to game design. Shatters are difficult to work around. Which is why Chrono and Mirage turned out the way they are. Is it "fair"? Nope. But that's what Mesmers got.

 

I think that Virtuoso can work. It is the first time ANet actually tried to alter Shatters which I personally like. Personal taste aside, from a pure gameplay point of view, I still believe traits and the interaction with core are the main issue here. And I also believe that asking for alterations there is more reasonable and likely to matter for its further developement than expecting a full rework of the main features - to avoid the bad M-word - of Virtuoso.

I don’t think the blade songs can be improved unless they are completely reworked. Their effects are almost exactly the same as the core but they have distortion taken away and have long cast and travel time.

So, comparing to core it is 2 things taken away, overall balance : -2 , the only benefit of the blade songs is that F3 does damage. Channel Block cannot substitute distortion in a meaningful way as it is crap against any duelist and has zero effect in a team fight.

Then mirage: 1 dodge taken away, mirage cloak given - an exchange. 

Then chrono: distortion taken away - CS given - an exchange

It is only logical to make bladesongs much stronger, because Anet didn’t implement any new mechanic really. As other said before - blades are not a new mechanic, they are just a a worse substitute for clones 

[Tseison.4659]

2 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

I don’t think the blade songs can be improved unless they are completely reworked. Their effects are almost exactly the same as the core but they have distortion taken away and have long cast and travel time.

So, comparing to core it is 2 things taken away, overall balance : -2 , the only benefit of the blade songs is that F3 does damage. Channel Block cannot substitute distortion in a meaningful way as it is crap against any duelist and has zero effect in a team fight.

Then mirage: 1 dodge taken away, mirage cloak given - an exchange. 

Then chrono: distortion taken away - CS given - an exchange

It is only logical to make bladesongs much stronger, because Anet didn’t implement any new mechanic really. As other said before - blades are not a new mechanic, they are just a a worse substitute for clones 

As I mentioned in my feedback, the Bladesongs can just be unblockable or become unblockable when at max blade pips.

I also think Bladesongs F1-3 should have additional charges and the reason why I’m saying this is because since our Bladesongs seem to be the important part of the Virtuoso and having to constantly sling out psionic blades at our enemies, we should be able to do that often. But that’s just my opinion. I’ve been fine running Dom/Illu/Virt and taking up the extra ammo for F1, but since anet is giving free charges aka to Bladesworn, I wouldn’t see why not? 

Then in terms of our F4, sorry but Blade Renewal needs to take its place. I don’t see the sense in trading a Block with 💩 damage tied to it for Distortion that we’ve relied on so much (apart from Chronomancer). I’d rather F1-3 have shorter cool downs and then place Blade Renewal on F4 with the channel and high cooldown.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Tseison.4659

[Xaylin.1860]

9 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Chrono - CS

Mirage - Mirage cloak and ambushes

Virt - ?

CS is not a mechanic but one single skills. Which, by the way, has the same resource system as base. Which novelty. Everything else is basically Quickness/Alacrity. Which also is no mechanic but just a skill effect (Boon). 

 

Mirage has a new mechanic - which I mentioned - but the implementation is horrible. It doesn't makes sense for the class and got everything else nerfed. 

 

9 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Imagine if soulbeast didn't have the pet merge and instead just removed Pets and didn't change anything about the traits or skills related to them, that is Virtuoso.

... which is why I mentioned that traits are are the real issue?

 

I get. You guys hate it. Doesn't change the fact that Chrono and Mirage were both aweful due to different reasons and were simply carried by numbers. I find it delusional how those are glorified when compared to Virtuoso. I'm not saying Virtuoso is great. But all the kitten-talking about Virt "mechanic" is kind of ironic if people would actually look at what Mesmer got in earlier expansions.

[Xaylin.1860]

2 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

I don’t think the blade songs can be improved unless they are completely reworked. Their effects are almost exactly the same as the core but they have distortion taken away and have long cast and travel time.

That's what I meant with limitations due to class design. Mesmers will never get a spec that is totally unreliant of Illusions (or Illusion substitutes like Blades) because it is baked into too many skills and traits. I mean... they didn't even manage to do it properly for Virtuoso.

 

Due to the same reason ANet probably won't alter F1-4 too much because otherwise they would have to rework all Shatter traits. Which not only comes with an initial development cost but also ongoing balancing costs if they stray too far from core. For example, if Mesmers ever got a transformation, just look at Bladesworn. They'd probably link F1-4 to effects the same way. 

 

Taking this into consideration I sometimes wonder what people expect. 

[AXLIB.8425]

1 hour ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

That's what I meant with limitations due to class design. Mesmers will never get a spec that is totally unreliant of Illusions (or Illusion substitutes like Blades) because it is baked into too many skills and traits. I mean... they didn't even manage to do it properly for Virtuoso.

 

Due to the same reason ANet probably won't alter F1-4 too much because otherwise they would have to rework all Shatter traits. Which not only comes with an initial development cost but also ongoing balancing costs if they stray too far from core. For example, if Mesmers ever got a transformation, just look at Bladesworn. They'd probably link F1-4 to effects the same way. 

 

Taking this into consideration I sometimes wonder what people expect. 

I mean they have kind of done that with scourge, it is just the other way around, many trait that effect the transformation was linked to simple skills that are more similar to our shatters, and the difference between scourge f skills and their core or even reaper transformation skills are night and day

Edited September 22, 2021 by AXLIB.8425

[OriOri.8724]

On 9/18/2021 at 3:33 PM, Nezekan.2671 said:

I think dagger having a movement skill would have been enough. Dagger needs to something more than just damage.

It needs to get an OH dagger as well. Right now, mesmer remains the only class that does not have a single elite spec that comes with 5 new weapon skills. Every other class has at least 1 elite spec that got a 2h weapon, or got both MH and OH weapons. Some classes even got 2 specs so far that had a new 2H weapon.

 

Plus, giving virtuoso 2 extra new weapon skills via OH dagger gives ANet room to improve on some of its design issues by giving OH dagger skills crucial functionality that a ranged power dps spec should have.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

I have been underwhelmed by all 6 eSpecs we have seen so far. Not saying they are bad but, they lack much that I find engaging. While I am still waiting for several rounds of tweaks, I think we can see what Anet is going for with these EoD eSpecs. 
 

I don’t see Anet changing the core mechanics of the revealed eSpecs much if at all, so it becomes a game of will one of these new especs win me over or will I stumble through EoD on a HoT eSpec like I did with PoF.  In writing that I just realized that, of the professions I play on the regular, I only use HoT eSpecs, nothing from PoF…..

maybe it’s a good thing that the old specs will exist but, it’s painful to consider that 6 of 9 revealed especs hold no interest to me. Like I am reaching a point of not caring about the new eSpecs at all given how lame these beta reveals have been. 

[Xaylin.1860]

1 hour ago, AXLIB.8425 said:

I mean they have kind of done that with scourge, it is just the other way around, many trait that effect the transformation was linked to simple skills that are more similar to our shatters, and the difference between scourge f skills and their core or even reaper transformation skills are night and day

You sure can tell that Reaper is newer due to the effect bloat. However, differences between core and Reaper Shroud skills are actually very small. They basically serve the same functionality. The main distinction is Reaper being specifically tailored for melee combat. ANet obviously tried to achieve something similar with Virtuoso.

 

Now, Scourge is a bad example. It does change up gameplay which is good. However, it does cause exactly those balancing issues I mentioned earlier. Still, core functionality of most Scourge F skills still maintain their original purpose from core.

 

But yes, we could have something like Scourge on Mesmer. As I said, it would probably be inverse and look like Bladesworn. It could be fun... I don't know. But to me, that's beside the point. Because I don't think ANet will rework Virtuoso to such an extent.

[Levetty.1279]

7 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I get. You guys hate it. Doesn't change the fact that Chrono and Mirage were both aweful due to different reasons and were simply carried by numbers. I find it delusional how those are glorified when compared to Virtuoso. I'm not saying Virtuoso is great. But all the kitten-talking about Virt "mechanic" is kind of ironic if people would actually look at what Mesmer got in earlier expansions.

I get it you love anet and will defend them to the death but everybody who isn't you can see Virtuoso is half finished and doesn't actually have a mechanic. Even reddit agrees and they hate Mesmer as much as you. Down playing Chrono and mirage won't change that.

[Xaylin.1860]

I'm not a white knight and I do not blindly defend ANet for what they are doing. I actually voiced quite some critique. I also agreed that Virtuoso isn't alright and I never said it was overall a great well designed e-spec. So really not sure where you are coming from.

 

Regarding Mirage and Chronomancer: I put things into perspective and context. Although I'm not even sure I brought those two into the discussion to begin with. There is nothing to gain for Virtuoso from bad mouthing other e-specs even though context does indeed matter. There also is nothing to gain for me from Virtuoso being bad considering I've been a Mesmer main since the game launched. But in all your disappointment - at least your and other peoples (regardless of class) tone has been quite pointed since the release of e-spec information started - you somehow read past everything else that isn't agreement or just neglect very sound arguments unless another person  goes "Oh yes, I agree. XY is rotten from the core. Let's burn it before it lays eggs."

 

That's not how discussions work. But feel free be upset with me, I guess.

 

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I'm not a white knight and I do not blindly defend ANet for what they are doing. I actually voiced quite some critique. I also agreed that Virtuoso isn't alright and I never said it was overall a great well designed e-spec. So really not sure where you are coming from.

 

Regarding Mirage and Chronomancer: I put things into perspective and context. Although I'm not even sure I brought those two into the discussion to begin with. There is nothing to gain for Virtuoso from bad mouthing other e-specs even though context does indeed matter. There also is nothing to gain for me from Virtuoso being bad considering I've been a Mesmer main since the game launched. But in all your disappointment - at least your and other peoples (regardless of class) tone has been quite pointed since the release of e-spec information started - you somehow read past everything else that isn't agreement or just neglect very sound arguments unless another person  goes "Oh yes, I agree. XY is rotten from the core. Let's burn it before it lays eggs."

 

That's not how discussions work. But feel free be upset with me, I guess.

 

 

Denying that virtuoso isn't just core Mesmer 0.75 isn't providing much discussion. Everybody else can see it but you insist on claiming that everybody else is wrong and yet still can't actually say what the new mechanic of this elite spec is, what interesting things it can do compared to core or why its ok it does basically nothing except throw out a few weak aoes.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Levetty.1279

[Mik.3401]

15 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

 

I get. You guys hate it. Doesn't change the fact that Chrono and Mirage were both aweful due to different reasons and were simply carried by numbers. I find it delusional how those are glorified when compared to Virtuoso. I'm not saying Virtuoso is great. But all the kitten-talking about Virt "mechanic" is kind of ironic if people would actually look at what Mesmer got in earlier expansions.

Are you sure those were just numbers? I mean CS and mirage cloak changed the play style completely by adding new ways to fight - it was definitely not just numbers. Yes ,  they had tendency to be OP in PvE (and PvP for a moment) but due to number changes (exactly) they are being killed nowadays.

Is it really ironic and delusional to say CS and mirage cloak are better than no clones replaced by slow, missing projectiles? I get you are trying to be constructive here giving virtuoso some credit, but really there is nothing in it to defend

[aetemes.2603]

I did not try virtuoso even though I play mesmer cause I was just disappointed watching the preview of it..I was hyped thinking it'll be a "performer" either acrobatic in someway or a singer given trident hints at that aspect just to find its a bunch of daggers over your head that flys off..thats it?? and boring utility/ult...however I don't agree that the other especs got good design. They all feel low effort and basic and randomly put together.

 

They feel amateurish not designed by try hard creative rpg gamers unlike the previous expacs imo. Bladesworn is the "best" of them at least it introduces this whole charging my blade gameplay even then I truly dislike that it's such a direct (ugly) reference to ff gunbreaker mixed with omae wa meme..i mean ok "funny/fun" but very.....tacky if they stuck to just a cool classic samurai feel rather than tacky mish mash?

 

The concepts are not executed in a way to feel like a complete fantasy rather they feel yup deadline is up there you go I am not paid enough for more. Happens to most mmos so..why not gw2 I guess.

Edited September 24, 2021 by aetemes.2603

[Leonidrex.5649]

Most moba characters with 4 skills have more mechanics going for them. When you stop to think about it you will get why me and many others think virt is kitten.

[Xaylin.1860]

On 9/23/2021 at 10:03 AM, Mik.3401 said:

Are you sure those were just numbers? I mean CS and mirage cloak changed the play style completely by adding new ways to fight - it was definitely not just numbers. Yes ,  they had tendency to be OP in PvE (and PvP for a moment) but due to number changes (exactly) they are being killed nowadays.

Is it really ironic and delusional to say CS and mirage cloak are better than no clones replaced by slow, missing projectiles? I get you are trying to be constructive here giving virtuoso some credit, but really there is nothing in it to defend

I did say Mirage had a mechanic? I mean... just read what I say? My issue with Mirage is the implementation of said mechanic. There are several problems besides pick up mechanics like Mirage Mirrors being wonky. Just to name the imho two most significant ones: First, linking both offense and defense to our Dodge but at the same time depriving us of Endurance is very bad design. Second, IH and Ambushs discourage using Shatters which are the core mechanic. This wouldn't be an issue if they were not available on Mirage. But they are. ANet basically recreated the innate conflict between doing damage and using your core mechanic which they tried to get rid off for core/Chrono when they reworked Illusions. Why Mirage was carried by numbers? Because implementation of Ambushs is bad and many people dropped it after damage numbers were nerfed.

 

Now, CS is a totally different topic. Theoretically it might enable new gameplay. But in the end, it's just a fancy CD reduction/reset. And while the effect is new, the mechanic isn't (if you said so, this would also apply to Bladesongs 🙄). So yes, in the end it's mostly numbers boosted by Alacrity and Quickness. 

 

But again, since people are apparently too agitated to properly read: I'm not saying Virtuoso was fine or that Bladesongs were fine. I'm not saying Virt was better than Chrono or Mirage. But I disagree that Virtuosos concept is unsalvagable.

[Nyel.1843]

Virtuoso is basically the main reason why I'm coming back to Guild Wars 2 and my Mesmer. 

 

Simple core mechanic? Might be. But it looks fantastic and I think it totally fits the Mesmer theme. I'm absolutely here for it.