Imagine if Virtuoso got even a fraction of effort that bladesworn/vindicator/catalyst got.

[Obtena.7952]

On 9/23/2021 at 3:57 AM, Levetty.1279 said:

 

Denying that virtuoso isn't just core Mesmer 0.75 isn't providing much discussion.

Right ...  in otherwords, so long as someone doesn't agree with you, they aren't part of the discussion. 👍

Eeven if you were right, what are you actually suggesting Anet do here? You think they are going to come up with a whole new espec concept in 4 months that's better than Virt? I'm ... doubtful. So what you should be expecting is that Anet will do their best to make Virt the spec they want it to be and on release day, you are going to basically see a version of what we already have. The arguments you provide are easily shut down because blades are clearly different than clones, so I would bet Anet doesn't abandon their class concept because of the rhetoric here. 

You don't have to like it either, but I can assure you that it's not going to change because you don't. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[draxynnic.3719]

Have to say, having fiddled around a bit with the elite specs in the beta, I'm getting a distinct feeling of 'grass is greener' mixed with 'be careful what you wish for'.

 

The current crop really seem to suffer from being based on ideas that look cool on paper but which are flawed at best when implemented into GW2 mechanics. Vindicator is... reasonably functional, although pressing the dodge button and getting replaced with a circle takes a little getting used to, and the urn is something that I suspect most people will avoid using in combat if they can reasonably do so. Bladesworn and Catalyst? For all replacing clones with daggers might not be exciting enough for some people, at least it's not building up a resource so you can have a 2.5-5s channel time before you can actually use your main profession mechanic. Or having your entire theme being built around a field that looks pretty but probably won't be where you need it when you need it unless you're fighting a stationary PvE boss. (No, really. You want to use combos to get auras, but if you're using hammer, the orb is your only source of a field unless you use Glyph of Storms, a water elemental and really good timing, or a conjure. An entire trait row is based on pulling this off. And 2/3rds of another is based on boosting that orb.)

 

We've grown used to Willbender being the whipping boy over the past month, but if Willbender and Vindicator had been swapped, Willbender might actually have been the good one next to Bladesworn and Catalyst.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Have to say, having fiddled around a bit with the elite specs in the beta, I'm getting a distinct feeling of 'grass is greener' mixed with 'be careful what you wish for'.

 

The current crop really seem to suffer from being based on ideas that look cool on paper but which are flawed at best when implemented into GW2 mechanics. Vindicator is... reasonably functional, although pressing the dodge button and getting replaced with a circle takes a little getting used to, and the urn is something that I suspect most people will avoid using in combat if they can reasonably do so. Bladesworn and Catalyst? For all replacing clones with daggers might not be exciting enough for some people, at least it's not building up a resource so you can have a 2.5-5s channel time before you can actually use your main profession mechanic. Or having your entire theme being built around a field that looks pretty but probably won't be where you need it when you need it unless you're fighting a stationary PvE boss. (No, really. You want to use combos to get auras, but if you're using hammer, the orb is your only source of a field unless you use Glyph of Storms, a water elemental and really good timing, or a conjure. An entire trait row is based on pulling this off. And 2/3rds of another is based on boosting that orb.)

 

We've grown used to Willbender being the whipping boy over the past month, but if Willbender and Vindicator had been swapped, Willbender might actually have been the good one next to Bladesworn and Catalyst.

Virt is building up resource that deals trash damage and can be sidestepped, not that much of a difference.

At least both catalyst and bladesworn have new mechanics.

[Levetty.1279]

8 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Now, CS is a totally different topic. Theoretically it might enable new gameplay. But in the end, it's just a fancy CD reduction/reset. And while the effect is new, the mechanic isn't (if you said so, this would also apply to Bladesongs 🙄). So yes, in the end it's mostly numbers boosted by Alacrity and Quickness. 

Name another skill that does what CS does.

I'll name 10 skills that just fire a projectile.

 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/True_Shot

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Long_Range_Shot

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter's_Shot

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crossfire

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Surprise_Shot

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crippling_Shot

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirror_Blade 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hip_Shot

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Brutal_Aim

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vital_Shot

[Levetty.1279]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right ...  in otherwords, so long as someone doesn't agree with you, they aren't part of the discussion. 👍

 

Yes that is what I said if you refuse to read my post and just want to troll.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Yes that is what I said if you refuse to read my post and just want to troll.

I've read all your posts. The fact that you continue to preach that Blades aren't a 'mechanic', even though you equate them to clones, which is a completely acceptable mechanic is a contradiction you have yet to resolve if you want to be taken seriously. 

In otherwords, you can't claim that blades aren't a valid mechanic if you say they are just clones with a different name. I get it ... you don't like it ... but if you want it to change, you have to say something that makes sense if you want any chance for it to happen. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I've read all your posts. The fact that you continue to preach that Blades aren't a 'mechanic', even though you equate them to clones, which is a completely acceptable mechanic is a contradiction you have yet to resolve if you want to be taken seriously. 

In otherwords, you can't claim that blades aren't a valid mechanic if you say they are just clones with a different name. I get it ... you don't like it ... but if you want it to change, you have to say something that makes sense if you want any chance for it to happen. 

If I come to your house and take away all your apples, you don't have any apples. This isn't rocket science. 

[Loules.8601]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I've read all your posts. The fact that you continue to preach that Blades aren't a 'mechanic', even though you equate them to clones, which is a completely acceptable mechanic is a contradiction you have yet to resolve if you want to be taken seriously. 

Clones - core Mesmer mechanic, yes.

But espec - about new mechanics. Blades - just a variation of clone-mechanic, not additional mechanic. 
 

I like new Mesmer espec visual style and blades instead of clones, but current iteration - just a representation of new Mesmers visual style, not specialisation mechanic.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Loules.8601

[Obtena.7952]

27 minutes ago, Loules.8601 said:

Clones - core Mesmer mechanic, yes.

But espec - about new mechanics. Blades - just a variation of clone-mechanic, not additional mechanic. 

You don't get to define what an espec is based on what you think it should be. Anet defines what an espec is. Whether you like it or not has nothing to do with the fact that Anet controls what defines an espec, not players. You don't think it's different enough, OK ... but that doesn't mean it's wrong or deficient in design. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Loules.8601]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

You don't get to define what an espec is based on what you think it should be. 

I don’t understand your idea 😅

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Loules.8601 said:

I don’t understand your idea 😅

That's good because I didn't give an idea. I'm just telling you how it works. It's not a requirement for you to understand for it to be true that Anet decides what is an appropriate espec or not. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 minute ago, Loules.8601 said:

I don’t understand your idea 😅

I think, in his mind. Removing mesmers core mechanic is a mechanic in itself.

[Rogue.8235]

It's interesting to me that the new play style that Virtuoso brings is simplicity in killing everything around it.  

I notice that a few players here are flipping out for some reason.  I guess they don't like simplicity on the mesmer profession.

Anyways, Virtuoso plays even closer as a thief than the other mesmer specializations.  It is essentially an mobile gunslinger with a few different ways of mitigating attacks other than evades.

The other thing is that I don't look at Virtuoso in isolation.  All other weapons, traits, and skills don't suddenly disappear when you select Virtuoso.

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Rogue.8235

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Virt is building up resource that deals trash damage and can be sidestepped, not that much of a difference.

At least both catalyst and bladesworn have new mechanics.

Majority of attacks in the game can be dodged or otherwise mitigated. Bladesongs at least contributed to your damage when you landed them, even in the PvE environment. It's also noteworthy that one distinction between blades and clones is that blades can be carried from one fight to another.

 

I was trialling Bladesworn in the lobby, and I'm pretty sure it was doing more damage if you simply didn't use Dragon Trigger at all.

 

You could argue that bladesongs don't have as much impact as they should for how telegraphed they are... but this is a common problem with the new specs. Long windup skills that were easily dodged and which had insufficient payoff when they landed was the main problem of willbender as well, and it's pretty much the mechanic of Bladesworn that this thread is so jealous of (keeping in mind the thread topic). And I'm not even sure where to start on describing the problems Catalyst had.

 

Considering the premise of this thread is the assertion that Virtuoso would have been better off if ArenaNet had come up with a more complex mechanic, I think experience with the new specs disproves that. 

 

Bladesongs, to me, feel like they're a mechanic on a similar level to dragonhunter virtues. Virtuoso replaces a set of instant activation abilities with ones that are slower-casting but which have broadly the same purpose. Dragonhunters get more powerful effects in exchange for the cast time - in the case of virtuoso, that only really applies if you can get good use out of the piercing, but the change in resource means that you're not subject to the complications of using clones and can potentially start a fight fully stocked.

 

It's hard to say definitively without testing them back to back, but I recall virtuoso being more powerful and more comfortable to use than any of the current three, although Vindicator comes close. That's probably saying more about them being bad than Virtuoso being good, but I think it DOES demonstrate the flaw in the envy of this thread. 

 

The grass ain't greener on the other side. I'm not sure I'd take Virtuoso into PvP, at least not without loading up on defensive traits and utilities from core, but I'm at least looking forward to using it in Cantha. Bladesworn and Catalyst in their current states I wouldn't even consider taking into sPvP, and if I didn't already have the hero points collected, I probably wouldn't even put a high priority on unlocking them.

[Leonidrex.5649]

9 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

It's interesting to me that the new play style that Virtuoso brings is simplicity in killing everything around it.  

I notice that a few players here are flipping out for some reason.  I guess they don't like simplicity on the mesmer profession.

Anyways, Virtuoso plays even closer as a thief than the other mesmer specializations.  It is essentially an mobile gunslinger with a few different ways of mitigating attacks other than evades.

The other thing is that I don't look at Virtuoso in isolation.  All other weapons, traits, and skills don't suddenly disappear when you select Virtuoso.

 

If I wanted simple, I would make a warrior or ranger, oh wait. I did. And I play them when I feel like playing something simple.
Problem of virtuoso is that it does not bring anything new, mirage made mesmer more combo oriented and fast-paced, and mobile.
THAT changes playstyle.
Chrono makes mesmer balls to the wall, all or nothing living on the edge spec, that changes playstyle.
Virtuoso is just.... press any F1, F2,1,2,3 skill they all throw X to deal Y damage and have no other effect. No boons, no CC, no combo, nothing.
And I disagree with everything you said other then the weapon part.
Its clear that virtuoso was supposed to be the " slow " mesmer spec, with long cast times, no clones and no mobility, does that sound as thief to you?
And If you wanna know how real gunslinger feels in a game play lost ark.
Spoiler, lvl 1 gunslinger is more of a gunslinger then virtuoso with 3 traitlines and entire build made to make this fantasy.

[Rogue.8235]

30 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

THAT changes playstyle.

And it does.  I played Virtuoso very differently from my mirage and chronomancer.

 

31 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Chrono makes mesmer balls to the wall, all or nothing living on the edge spec, that changes playstyle.

My chronomancer is actually my safest mesmer build.  We play chrono very differently (which is good).

 

32 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

mirage made mesmer more combo oriented and fast-paced, and mobile.

My chrono is more combo ariented than my mirage.  Again, we play it differently and that's good and cool.

 

33 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Its clear that virtuoso was supposed to be the " slow " mesmer spec, with long cast times, no clones and no mobility, does that sound as thief to you?

The way I played it is most similar to my thief than my other mesmer builds.

 

34 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

And If you wanna know how real gunslinger feels in a game play lost ark.

If we want to bring every other game into the realm of discussion, then Secret world has more, actual guns than other games.  

These arguments are irrelevant since we are talking about the context of Guild Wars 2, not a review of every game on the market.

Mass effect has a better gunslinger than lost ark.

Lost ark has the worst gunslinger because other games have better gunslingers.

See where this is going?

 

37 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

If I wanted simple, I would make a warrior or ranger, oh wait. I did. And I play them when I feel like playing something simple.

So you admit that the simplicity of Virtuoso is, indeed, different from other mesmer specializations?

 

 

[Loules.8601]

4 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

4 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

 

So you admit that the simplicity of Virtuoso is, indeed, different from other mesmer specializations?

It’s not difference. 
All of you just making a comparisons like between “wet” and “long”.

Simplicity or new visual mechanic - not new specialisation (if we take current as minimum basis), it’s just characteristics. Not class-mechanics. 
Maybe with many different espec traits, that seriously  modify shatters - it can be a espec mechanics, but “easy as Mesmer” - not mechanic in any way. It’s measure of gameplay difficulty. Blades, without additional new mechanics - just stationary clones (on your model). It’s not mechanic, if you don’t have corresponding mechanic at all - all your interactions based solely on core traits. 

[Rogue.8235]

1 hour ago, Loules.8601 said:

It’s not difference. 
All of you just making a comparisons like between “wet” and “long”.

Simplicity or new visual mechanic - not new specialisation (if we take current as minimum basis), it’s just characteristics. Not class-mechanics. 
Maybe with many different espec traits, that seriously  modify shatters - it can be a espec mechanics, but “easy as Mesmer” - not mechanic in any way. It’s measure of gameplay difficulty. Blades, without additional new mechanics - just stationary clones (on your model). It’s not mechanic, if you don’t have corresponding mechanic at all - all your interactions based solely on core traits. 

 

Ah I see now.

 

I am talking about how players actually play the game.  In this regard, Virtuoso offers a different way to play mesmer in Guild Wars 2.

In addition, the mechanics (as in the functions that are the actual lines of code) are different.  

 

You are defining it on the grounds of whether or not it increases the complexity of mesmer.  That or you are defining it on something that is not the "characteristics" of the specialization.  

Also, note that mesmer clones are already stationary.  I grab scepter, create clones, and those clones just stand there tickling the enemy with 1 damage hits.  They move when I shatter them.  Otherwise they just stand there.

 

So, you are arguing that Virtuoso is not "new" enough because the daggers are stationary on the character model?  Would it be better if they were stationary in random places like clones currently are?

 

Also, F1-9 arn't much different.  Just like every other mesmer specialization.

F4 is different, just like every other mesmer specialization.

 

Virtuoso changes one of the sword skills, something that no other specialization does in the game.  Nothing else changes a core weapon in any way (just core profession skills).

 

Virtuoso skills are also different from other mesmer skills.  The other thing is that the virtuoso traits revolve around all the blades being thrown everywhere.  It's as if blades being thrown around like House of Flying Daggers is the mechanical difference.

 

Everything ties together with virtuoso to keep pressure on the target with bladesongs.  Bladesongs being the change in profession mechanic, which is shatters.  Overall, it is a simple mechanic.  But it is different.

It is different in how it plays.  It is different in the lines of code that call different functions.  It is different in that they are blades stationary on the character rather than clones stationary somewhere in the vicinity of the character.  It's tratis take more advantage of mitigating attacks through blocks and evades.  Or it can focus on just pumping out continuous damage..

 

Just complain that you don't like it.  This argument about it not being different is going nowhere.  

Cool, you don't like it.  I personally like it.  We're different people with different opinions.  Nothing wrong here.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Rogue.8235
typos

[Nyel.1843]

13 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Virt is building up resource that deals trash damage and can be sidestepped, not that much of a difference.

At least both catalyst and bladesworn have new mechanics.

 

Easily fixable? Increase damage and make it harder to avoid. These things are balancing and can easily be done. Doesn't make the new spec bad though.

[draxynnic.3719]

But it does have effects on how you play it. You can bring daggers from one encounter to another, possibly opening with a burst right off the bat, while traditional mesmers have to stack clones at the start of a fight. Conventional mesmers can be resource-denied by having their clones killed; virtuoso can't, but also doesn't benefit from the distraction potential of clones. Conventional mesmers need to be in melee to get the most out of shatters, but are hard (but not impossible) to dodge and are reliant on clones to get to the enemy (which is often a big telegraph if the enemy is paying attention, unless the clones are already close to the target). Virtuosos can get full benefit from long range, but has a clearer telegraph and is easy to time a dodge for.

 

Plenty of differences there.

 

The similarities exist for trait purposes. F1 does power damage, F2 confusion, F3 daze and F4 is defensive...why? Because that's what the core traits are assuming they'll do. Just like how guardian virtues are always damage focused (primarily burning) on F1, healing and cleansing focused on F2, and protective and blocking on F3, because that's what the relevant traits assume. 

 

Mesmer is built around building up a resource and shattering it to achieve specific effects that are bound to traits. So what are you expecting? A tome-like mechanic where each clone (or replacement) turns into a page? That could actually be pretty cool, but I'm pretty sure you'd still end up with F1 being power damage, F2 being conditions (probably confusion/torment), F3 CC-oriented, and F4 defensive-oriented.

[phokus.8934]

2 hours ago, Nyel.1843 said:

 

Easily fixable? Increase damage and make it harder to avoid. These things are balancing and can easily be done. Doesn't make the new spec bad though.

No one is talking about the loss of IP and Diversion which is the real kick in the groin for Virtuoso.

[Mik.3401]

Seeing all people defending this espec here and reacting confused to me saying it is a strict downgrade from core is kind of concerning because it shows what kind of player base is left in the game. And that devs are not the only problem in this mix then. I think it’s best to act like virtuoso just doesn’t exist and hand it over to OW players to pew pew mobs, PvP already has so many specs to choose from.

[draxynnic.3719]

6 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

No one is talking about the loss of IP and Diversion which is the real kick in the groin for Virtuoso.

Why? IP only affects the vicinity of the Virtuoso unless you're using F4, and Virtuoso is largely designed to place less importance of getting into the middle of the action than conventional mesmer. Furthermore, IP exists in part to mitigate the problem of not having clones at all when you need to shatter, and daggers are more reliable in that respect (you can start battles with daggers stocked, and the enemy can't kill your daggers however much AoE they throw around. 

 

It is missing out on that close-in instant Diversion, but that's only really applicable within 240 range, and Dissonance might actually be more reliable if the enemy isn't close to you or any of your clones.

[phokus.8934]

17 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Why? IP only affects the vicinity of the Virtuoso unless you're using F4, and Virtuoso is largely designed to place less importance of getting into the middle of the action than conventional mesmer. Furthermore, IP exists in part to mitigate the problem of not having clones at all when you need to shatter, and daggers are more reliable in that respect (you can start battles with daggers stocked, and the enemy can't kill your daggers however much AoE they throw around. 

 

It is missing out on that close-in instant Diversion, but that's only really applicable within 240 range, and Dissonance might actually be more reliable if the enemy isn't close to you or any of your clones.

Mainly Diversion being replaced with a straight downgrade of a block.  Virtuoso has extremely bad sustain as it is.
IP can work even without clones and doing away with it makes the spec seem janky.  Almost has the same feeling as Chrono when it lost IP.

Edited September 26, 2021 by phokus.8934

[draxynnic.3719]

10 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

Mainly Diversion being replaced with a straight downgrade of a block.  Virtuoso has extremely bad sustain as it is.
IP can work even without clones and doing away with it makes the spec seem janky.  Almost has the same feeling as Chrono when it lost IP.

...do you mean Distortion?

 

Requiem seems like more of a sidegrade to me. It's reliably a 3s block as long as it has at least one blade, it triggers block-related traits, it contributes a bit of damage to nearby enemies, it has 60% of Distortion's cooldown, and it doesn't prevent capture point contribution. On the minus side, it's a block rather than Distortion and thus can be bypassed by unblockables, and it can't be instant-activated. Those are, admittedly, pretty big downsides, but when you consider the upsides as well, I don't think it's a straight downgrade.