Catalyst concerns

[Demented Yak.6105]

To start off, I love the concept of the catalyst. I can't wait to play it in the beta. However, I do have some concerns.

Firstly, auras.

A catalyst wielding a hammer does not provide itself with nearly enough auras to justify such low numbers on the hardened auras and empowering auras traits. 

6 seconds is not nearly enough time on each of these traits to reach max stacks without outside help. Of course that may be what Anet intends but the number of tempests running around is not nearly enough to account for all the future catalysts. At best right now, I see maybe 2 or 3 tempests in a squad of 50 in WvW and practically none in non-open world PvE. Without a dedicated tempest to babysit you or someone blasting ice and ethereal fields left and right (unlikely), the best case scenario is you'll have a consistent 4% damage reduction/increase with this trait with maybe 6% every once in a while. If you build with the aura traits on fire/water/arcane, have runes that give you auras (very situationally) and go out of your way to use your single aura skill on hammer-earth-4, maybe you'll manage 8 or 10% for a few measly seconds at a time. It's even worse when you realise that deciding when to get this boost is not entirely up to you since you'll be mostly relying on passive procs.

The only weapon where this might be acceptable is with dagger and focus which has leap finishers and extra fire/water auras. As it stands, when using a hammer or staff, I can't see hardened auras be anything other than a dead trait.

 

Secondly, defence.

It looks like hardened auras and arguably staunch auras are the only defensive traits. It's true that there is a nice heal on hammer-water-4 and some acceptable blocks in hammer-earth-4 and the earth utility. Unfortunately I don't think this is nearly enough to create the 'bruiser' people want catalyst to be. As far as I can see right now, even weaver has more defensive options: 5 traits with access to barrier and vitality, two utilities with barrier/evade frames that are arguably more powerful than the earth/air augment skills, two sword skills with evade frames and arguably more cc (though less immediately accessible).

So is this just another glassy melee/mid-range spec? Weaver has more evades, more barrier, more flat vitality/toughness/healing power stat boosts and can even blast their own water fields for group healing - something hammer-catalyst will not be able to do.

 

Thirdly, hammer combos.

We have four very accessible fields but when wielding hammer we have very little to do with them. Not only that, but given that the jade spheres change based on your attunement, we can't even mix and match which finishers we use on which field. That leap finisher in water attunement? It MUST be used with our water field. The blast finishers in fire/air/earth? MUST be used with their own fields. I'm thinking especially about air. Hammer-air has one blast finisher and the only field it has access to is a lightning field and I'm not really very excited for 10s of swiftness every 25s.

For weapons other than hammer which have the own fields, this might be alright but it seems like we'll really be relying on these jade spheres that so far, have very limited versatility.  I don't think it would be too overpowered to add a few more finishers on the hammer skills. Air-2 for example screams whirl finisher and a 25% projectile finisher on grand finale would be very moderate while also rewarding good planning.

 

Lastly, a few more traits.

Disregarding the aura traits, a few others seem a bit weak.

I don't think I'll really understand how valuable energy is until I play, but energised elements seems incredibly weak. Many ele builds, especially ones that focus on power, have great access to fury. That's not to mention that a ton of other professions pump out group fury every millisecond. I'm not sure why anyone would use this trait, ever. If this trait replaced fury with something like some selfish alacrity (something ele always desperately needs) or some group defensive boons I could see it becoming a very competitive trait.

Spectacular sphere also seems a bit out of place. A bit more might, fury, vigor or resistance when you activate a sphere every 15 seconds. I'm not sure what incentive there is to use this over the other master traits when ele can already have fantastic access to these boons with the right builds. If a few extra effects were added or replaced the boons, I could see this competing with the other master traits. Maybe if the pulsing damage of the jade spheres was increased or if you gained some sort of damage reduction while inside the sphere radius or if the jade spheres started moving with you - something that makes focusing on the spheres worth your time in a more fast-paced environment like WvW.

Empowered empowerment could be quite powerful. I'm just not sure it'll be worth taking if we can't maintain those 10 stacks. Even in a very controlled PvE environment it might be tricky. It seems like to get any use out of this trait at all then you absolutely MUST take both of the other empowerment traits (vicious/evasive empowerment). I don't think it'll create good build variety.

Staunch auras could be alright. However, I think it conflicts with the other aura traits. The other aura traits incentivise trying to get as many auras as you can very quickly. But personally I'd rather spread out my stability and use it at sparse, intense moments. Even without those concerns, it seems a little simple for an elite spec grandmaster trait. I think giving this trait some extra defensive or support options would help immensely. Maybe group stability or a small effect on gaining stability. 

 

I hope I'm wrong about all this but even if I'm not, I'll probably use this spec a lot anyway.

 

 

 

[Tempest.8479]

Based on what I can gather, I think there's probably less cause for concern than you might think.

 

Auras

 

I think aura generation should be fine with this spec. There's 4 finishers on hammer and quite a bit on other ele weapons as well. You can also gain an aura on hammer earth 4, as well as taking additional finishers with arcane skills or evasive arcana if you need to supplement that aura generation. Taking fire spec also grants fire aura on fire attunement. 

It's also important to keep in mind that the buffs on hardened/empowering auras refresh duration on all stacks every time you gain an aura, so 6 sec can actually stretch a lot longer. I think if you play to maximize aura generation, so long as you're generating at least 1 aura every 6 seconds you can comfortably maintain 80-90% uptime on multiple stacks, if not max stacks. 

 

Defense

 

I think you're overlooking how powerful a defensive tool elemental empowerment can be. Getting to max stacks grants 100 (200 if traited) toughness/vitality baseline. If you were to run something like celestial gear + divinity runes, even without traits or infusions those numbers go up to about 171 and 343, respectively. Not to mention that it could also increase healing power as well. Investing in defensive stats via gear and traits can easily create a bruiser spec with elemental empowerment alone because the bigger the initial number, the larger raw increase in stats.

Stab on aura is also extremely potent, as it would make for a pretty unshakable bruiser. The hammer 3 skills also grant 5% reduced incoming condi/strike damage in water/earth. There's also barrier on the earth utility when in range of the earth sphere, and the sphere itself pulses protection.

 

Hammer Combos

 

While the water leap and fire blast do seem like they'll have to be used in their respective elements, the air/earth finishers were specifically described to be on a delay so you could switch attunements before blasting. I feel like with the first point, this could also be augmented with arcane utilities or evasive arcana. That being said, there might be some cause for concern here.

 

A few more traits

 

Energized elements is literally one of the best minor traits they could have added. Ele players have been clamoring for a way to regain the fury-on-attunement-swap functionality of the old arcane fury trait since it was removed. This creates a way maintain access to fury while being able to move away from the air line for something more defensive or utility focused for bruiser builds.

 

I agree with you on spectacular sphere. It doesn't seem that impactful to me, but it might actually be pretty good on boon support builds.

 

Empowered empowerment seems awesome to me, but you're right about it being tricky to stack. That being said, I think you might be able to get to max stacks relatively easily with 1 stack per aura and only taking 1 of the 2 other traits. With 3 disable/immobilize skills on hammer and good uptime on shocking aura I think you should be fine, but you can also use arcane surge to help out like they said on stream. 

 

Staunch auras isn't really in conflict with the other aura traits because you only need to generate 1 every 6 seconds. So long as you do that, you can get to max stacks of the 2 other buffs while spacing out stab.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Tempest.8479

[Demented Yak.6105]

You have alleviated some of my fears but I've still got some problems.

Auras:

3 of those 4 finishers on hammer are blast finishers. Unless we also have ethereal or ice fields to use them with, we're not getting any auras this way. The air and earth blast finishers being on a delay makes no difference to this. They won't provide any auras no matter which of our jade spheres we use them on. Arcane blast is a projectile that can't provide any auras. Arcane wave can only apply auras with ethereal or ice fields which aren't all that common. Even ele only has 1 ice field and that's on staff. Evasive arcana is just another blast finisher. 

As far as I know, there are 4 traits that give you access to extra auras. Sunspot and elemental epitome are perfectly good and reliable. Soothing ice and arcane resurrection are absolutely not reliable however. You can't control if you're critically hit or have an ally to resurrect in the few seconds you need them. The only other auras I can think of come from runes which are either unreliable or have ridiculous cooldowns.

Realistically, you can't expect to play perfectly and apply an aura exactly 5.9 seconds after the first to maximise uptime. Even if you manage to perfectly set up an aura every 5 seconds, it takes 25 seconds to build up to 5 stacks and still, your cooldowns will take their toll. Elemental epitome has an easy to work with cooldown but sunspot only procs going in to fire which means every second you spend in fire (I imagine most people will spend a lot of time in fire) will delay that proc for 10s + however much time you spend in fire. Water and arcane traits you can't control. If you water leap in to your fire field you must be proccing sunspot at the same time so the 6 second refresh is irrelevant.

That's not even mentioning that there are too many other things to consider in places like PvP and WvW. Is it worth wasting your block just to upkeep your aura trait? Is it worth switching to fire if you need to stay on your earth attunement?

As I see it, I don't expect the vast, vast majority of people to be able to hold more than 4% consistently. And if you're good enough to manage everything tick perfect, is it worth building your playstyle around it?

 

Defence:

Thanks. You've made some very good points here about empowerment that I didn't consider. Still, I don't like the fact that to get this tankiness I'll probably be forced in to celestial gear. I guess this'll require testing before I'm convinced.

 

Traits:

Personally, if I want fury I'll be relying on zephyr's boon, raging storm and my allies. It's a fairly common boon. But I do see where you're coming from. Thanks.

I'm not sure how you're seeing a good uptime on shocking aura. Without dagger, your maximum uptime is 30% and that's if you use your air and earth finishers perfectly in addition to arcane wave and arcane blast. That seems like a hell of a lot of work but I recognise it could be fairly powerful.

I'm not 100% sure I'd want to do all that and have to use my ccs for empowerment but I do feel a bit better about it. Thanks.

[fuzzyp.6295]

26 minutes ago, Demented Yak.6105 said:

You have alleviated some of my fears but I've still got some problems.

Auras:

3 of those 4 finishers on hammer are blast finishers. Unless we also have ethereal or ice fields to use them with, we're not getting any auras this way. The air and earth blast finishers being on a delay makes no difference to this. They won't provide any auras no matter which of our jade spheres we use them on. Arcane blast is a projectile that can't provide any auras. Arcane wave can only apply auras with ethereal or ice fields which aren't all that common. Even ele only has 1 ice field and that's on staff. Evasive arcana is just another blast finisher.

I just wanted to comment on this. We don't actually know how this trait works quiet yet. The language on the skill reads: "Gain an aura based on your current attunement when you combo. Gaining an aura grants you Elemental Empowerment. Auras can be gained this way once per attunement per interval."

It's possible that things like Arcane Blast or Torando (projectile/whirl finishers) will grant us auras because this trait is only referencing combos. We won't know for sure until the beta though.

As for the blast finishers and the current fields: I think its pretty clear that blasting these fields will yield auras dependant on your attunement rather than what field/finisher combo you use. CMC blasted the Poison Field in the demonstration and yielded a Magnetic Aura, so it should go without saying that even though its a Water Field for example, blasting it will still yield a Frost Aura. (EDIT: If you wanna check, it happens at about the 59:30 mark in the demonstration. He uses Earth 5, a blast finisher in the poison field, yielding an aura.)

Basically, it seems any blast will yield an aura in any of the fields. It's possible Leaps work that way too, like Burning Speed on Dagger. And its possible that even Projectile/Whirl Finishers, since they combo will also yield auras but we don't know that yet.

Not sure if this helps your concerns much.

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by fuzzyp.6295

[Demented Yak.6105]

16 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

I just wanted to comment on this. We don't actually know how this trait works quiet yet. The language on the skill reads: "Gain an aura based on your current attunement when you combo. Gaining an aura grants you Elemental Empowerment. Auras can be gained this way once per attunement per interval."

It's possible that things like Arcane Blast or Torando (projectile/whirl finishers) will grant us auras because this trait is only referencing combos. We won't know for sure until the beta though.

As for the blast finishers and the current fields: I think its pretty clear that blasting these fields will yield auras dependant on your attunement rather than what field/finisher combo you use. CMC blasted the Poison Field in the demonstration and yielded a Magnetic Aura, so it should go without saying that even though its a Water Field for example, blasting it will still yield a Frost Aura.

Basically, it seems any blast will yield an aura in any of the fields. It's possible Leaps work that way too, like Burning Speed on Dagger. And its possible that even Projectile/Whirl Finishers, since they combo will also yield auras but we don't know that yet.

Not sure if this helps your concerns much.

 

I'm very glad you wrote this. You wrapped up 90% of my problems.

I've been misunderstanding the trait or not reading it properly. I missed the "Once PER ATTUNEMENT per interval". I kept assuming you could only proc the trait every 10 seconds across all attunements.

But now I have a new question. Let's say you do use burning speed on dagger into your fire field and proc the trait at the same time. You get two fire auras? One is wasted? What happens?

So it seems I spent a good half hour today writing kitten. I will leave my post unedited as a testament to my stupidity.

Thanks.

[AzuritaBlues.3206]

I think you should probably wait until to play it on beta to point out your concerns, and preferably in the BETA Feedback thread, so they'll actually read.

Aura generation looks fine, you gotta remember Fire Traits that give you an aura on Fire Attunement and casting and picking up conjured weapons. Earth shield will be amazing with that build, it's 3  extra auras to pop and help you keep the momentum. There's also arcane wave to help with blast finishers.

About the survivability, it's not just the aura traits that reduce your received damage, the +%stats one also reduce damage and make you more bulky via toughness, vitality, healing power and concentration buffs. We got a new block utility and access to perma stability too.

[AzuritaBlues.3206]

10 minutes ago, Demented Yak.6105 said:

I'm very glad you wrote this. You wrapped up 90% of my problems.

I've been misunderstanding the trait or not reading it properly. I missed the "Once PER ATTUNEMENT per interval". I kept assuming you could only proc the trait every 10 seconds across all attunements.

But now I have a new question. Let's say you do use burning speed on dagger into your fire field and proc the trait at the same time. You get two fire auras? One is wasted? What happens?

So it seems I spent a good half hour today writing kitten. I will leave my post unedited as a testament to my stupidity.

Thanks.

if you're refering to using a Leap finisher on a Fire Field, in that case I think you'll get 2 auras, but one will overwrite the other  and you'll get 2 stacks of the new trait buff, but they probably won't stack duration (just like aura durations don't stack). 

EDIT: if you run the stability on aura trait, you'll get 2 stacks of stab

Edited September 18, 2021 by talesbfftt.4596

[fuzzyp.6295]

33 minutes ago, Demented Yak.6105 said:

I'm very glad you wrote this. You wrapped up 90% of my problems.

I've been misunderstanding the trait or not reading it properly. I missed the "Once PER ATTUNEMENT per interval". I kept assuming you could only proc the trait every 10 seconds across all attunements.

But now I have a new question. Let's say you do use burning speed on dagger into your fire field and proc the trait at the same time. You get two fire auras? One is wasted? What happens?

So it seems I spent a good half hour today writing kitten. I will leave my post unedited as a testament to my stupidity.

Thanks.

I would assume that the Trait for Catalyst would take priority since it is on a 10 ICD.. If its on cool down, then you should still get the Fire Aura for the regular combo. In terms of the other effects you get from aura generation, you would likely only get one (so one stack of hardened aura instead of two). But, its hard to know for sure until we test it out in the beta.

EDIT: So like for example:

You Burning Speed (Leap) into a Fire Field. Catalyst's trait Procs and gives you an Aura and you gain your Aura traits from Cataylst. You get one stack of each because Elemental Epitome overrides the regular combo rules. Then you turn around and use Arcane Brilliance in the Fire Field. You don't get an Aura because Elemental Epitome is on cool down.

If you reverse it though, use Arcane Brilliance in a Fire Field first, Elemental Epitome will proc and give you an Aura and 1 Stack of whatever Aura traits you have. Then you use your leap into the Fire Field and get a second Aura and second stack of aura traits.

 

That would be my guess on to how it works.

Edited September 18, 2021 by fuzzyp.6295