Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 (edited) ^ Title of thread. I don't feel like I should have to explain too deeply into why this is a problem when a single Minionmancer is capable of constantly recycling 7 to potentially 14 minions if using Lich. And this isn't to mention how people like to stack them on teams lately, making it not uncommon to see two Minionmancers on the same node, creating a 14 to potentially 24 minion stack of constant cycling unblockable AoE damage that is also applying poison. It's fine that Minionmancer is tanky, but it having this much consistent unblockable damage output in conjunction with Staff unblockable, is too much unblockable damage, and largely why this build structure is overperforming in ways that it shouldn't be. Edited September 19, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524 10 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted September 19, 2021 Author Share Posted September 19, 2021 (edited) How is no one else commenting on this? This build is grossly overperforming and it is stinking up even ATs. Almost every reason why it overperforms is tied to the detonation damage from Death Nova. It offers way too much offensive as well as defensive stature. Having it be unblockable is too much. The nerfs to lower minion health did absolutely nothing to tend to the actual strengths that make this build so strong. If anything, I've actually noticed that the lower minion health expedites its detonation cycling. Can we get this build put into line please? Like seriously. I'm seeing teams of plat 2+ players who don't run Minionmancer, losing to mixed bottom plat teams who stack Minionmancers. The plat 2 players can be outplaying the stacked Minionmancer team but it doesn't matter because of how Minionmancer is designed. There isn't enough counter-play around Minionmancer. Grimjack had said this at one point and I agree: "There is no way to have meaningful interaction with Minionmancer on node without being constantly punished for it." I feel like this meta is actually more balanced than we've seen in the past 2 or 3 years, and you know you won't hear me say that often. Minionmancer is the only thing standing in the way of a great meta. Can we please get this fixed? Edited September 19, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddbopkins.2630 Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 Its not just minions/unblockable thats a problem for minionmancer core or scourge. Its also the application of weakness togeather with protection. When i come a cross a minion necro thats barfing those boon and condition i just leave that fight 100% of the time. As a fa ele or any power class its a useless waist of time to invest even a miniscule amount of effort against weakness spam and protection spam. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 Death Nova is like the least of anyone's concerns in regards to Minionmancer. 7 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: It's fine that Minionmancer is tanky, but it having this much consistent unblockable damage output in conjunction with Staff unblockable, is too much unblockable damage, and largely why this build structure is overperforming in ways that it shouldn't be. Yeah no. 1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: How is no one else commenting on this? This build is grossly overperforming and it is stinking up even ATs. Almost every reason why it overperforms is tied to the detonation damage from Death Nova. It offers way too much offensive as well as defensive stature. Having it be unblockable is too much. Minionmancer is at a point where it's functionally immune to condition damage entirely, in addition to just being extremely tanky to direct damage. Death Nova is the least of anyone's concerns. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 (edited) Adressing the damage of minion master is doing it 100% wrong. Core necro has too much sustain. Increase the shroud degeneration to 5% and it's fixed. But well... it's not that I am saying this for over a year now regarding any core necro carrion build. ANet's silly "tradeoff" policy is denying that idea, because reaper loses its tradeoff, when core also gets 5% degeneration. Edited September 19, 2021 by KrHome.1920 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted September 19, 2021 Author Share Posted September 19, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said: Its not just minions/unblockable thats a problem for minionmancer core or scourge. Its also the application of weakness togeather with protection. When i come a cross a minion necro thats barfing those boon and condition i just leave that fight 100% of the time. As a fa ele or any power class its a useless waist of time to invest even a miniscule amount of effort against weakness spam and protection spam. Yes but in ATs during all plat 2+ final rounds, you don't simply rotate around a team that has two Minionmancers. You have to take nodes or you lose. So this brings us back to the problem where this build is just mechanically attribute-tied too strong, in terms of 1v1 kill potential defensively or even offensively and also its ability to hold nodes for an inordinate amount of time even if the player is ultimately losing the combat. Minionmancer is too stacked. It's stacked to the point that even a mediocre player behind it, is actually useful and moderately dangerous. It has too many mechanisms tied into it that counter the things that are traditionally supposed to counter Necromancers. <- This is a problem. The largest three to mention are pulsing AoE damage & reveal that hits through walls, Ranged attacks to chase what it reveals, and obviously the consistent damage application from minions which is very strong against glass cannon or squishies. Glass cannon & squishy is supposed to counter Necromancers but this is not true in the case of Minionmaster. 2 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said: Death Nova is like the least of anyone's concerns in regards to Minionmancer. Yeah no. Minionmancer is at a point where it's functionally immune to condition damage entirely, in addition to just being extremely tanky to direct damage. Death Nova is the least of anyone's concerns. You could look at it that way. Either way, it has either too much defense or too much offense, take your pick. After really evaluating its play in ATs after I came back from a 3 month break, in my opinion it's the damage output. Damage output is equivalent to defense. If something is outputting too much offensive pressure, you have to keep backing off and kiting and do defensive cycles and you can't stay on it. From what I've seen, this is a large part of what makes Minionmancer look tankier than it actually is. IE: On my Soulbeast build, if I can hit a Minionmancer when he is trying to rotate from one node to another and does not have me targeted, I can get a clean burst lead-in on a blindside before the minions begin to focus me. Usually at that point, I can stay on the Minionmancer and secure a kill without much trouble. But if he sees me coming and I have to move head on into all that garbage to attempt to engage it in combat, it's almost worth just leaving the combat to begin with and going somewhere else. This is because it is virtually impossible to find a moment to stop and deal damage without being punished for doing so, which you can't afford to do on anything glass cannon. For something like a Thief or a DPS Ranger or Mesmer, getting tagged by all those little minion strikes is like heavy damage over the course of just even 20 to 30 seconds which will kill you, and that's not to mention the damage coming from the Necromancer itself. This creates an effect where many builds who engage the Minionmancer, end up kiting a lot more than they should be due to this minion attack & detonation pressure, with little interval to land attack streams on the actual Necromancer. Because you'll begin a burst "Let's say a Spellbreaker who lands a Bull's Charge into 100 Blades on the Necro" but then minions start getting caught in that cleave and detonating around him, while the ranged ones continue plugging him with ranged attacks that individually hit harder than the Bristleback's auto attack, all of the minions, due to life steal tied into their attacks. This often results in the person who is landing a burst having to bail on the burst because if they don't, they are taking too much damage to where it isn't worth staying to finish the burst. Most classes do not have methods to defend while simultaneously attacking to be able to avoid those situations, so the above is a problem and why I believe Minionmancer is so tanky. It's able to force people out of bursts that should be landing due to all the AI pressure. But yeah, I don't know when Necromancer became like a cross-classed Mesmer clone user/Ranger pets, but it's too much. It needs to lose something. Edited September 19, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddbopkins.2630 Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 10 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: Yes but in ATs during all plat 2+ final rounds, you don't simply rotate around a team that has two Minionmancers. You have to take nodes or you lose. So this brings us back to the problem where this build is just mechanically attribute-tied too strong, in terms of 1v1 kill potential defensively or even offensively and also its ability to hold nodes for an inordinate amount of time even if the player is ultimately losing the combat. Mm that is true cant just rotate around 2 of them and expect to win. Therr has to be an easy class to play other wise 1/3 the people who play necro wouldnt even play gw2. If the devs ever intended necro to be fair it would never be the way it is now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted September 19, 2021 Author Share Posted September 19, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said: Mm that is true cant just rotate around 2 of them and expect to win. Therr has to be an easy class to play other wise 1/3 the people who play necro wouldnt even play gw2. If the devs ever intended necro to be fair it would never be the way it is now. Aint no way: "The easy class" should never be the most rewarding class in any game. It's ok to have something with an easy entry level, but it is not ok if the easy entry level class is performing at higher levels than veteran players wielding what are supposed to be high risk high reward classes. The Minionmancer could accurately be described as "the easiest entry level class that is also a top meta in higher tiers, that is a low risk high reward build to play". <- Everything is wrong with that, especially when I'm seeing 2 of them on average in most games that I am in lately, unranked, ranked, and ATs. Necromancer in general is already the easy entry level class, regardless of Core Necro no minions, Reaper, Scourge no minions, it's all easy to walk into, and that's fine. But when you tie Minionmancer together, it's just too much. Again, there is a difference between being an easy build to play to get started, and being an easy low risk build to play that is somehow more rewarding than high risk high reward builds. Necro is fair enough, it doesn't need to be in a category of its own above the meta for being easy to play and the most powerful to play. I mean obviously we have problems here when veteran players go to wield this. Now we have a situation where something is so strong, there really isn't much reason to play any class/build over it that is supposed to perform the same job role. Edited September 19, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkness.6947 Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 21 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: ^ Title of thread. I don't feel like I should have to explain too deeply into why this is a problem when a single Minionmancer is capable of constantly recycling 7 to potentially 14 minions if using Lich. And this isn't to mention how people like to stack them on teams lately, making it not uncommon to see two Minionmancers on the same node, creating a 14 to potentially 24 minion stack of constant cycling unblockable AoE damage that is also applying poison. It's fine that Minionmancer is tanky, but it having this much consistent unblockable damage output in conjunction with Staff unblockable, is too much unblockable damage, and largely why this build structure is overperforming in ways that it shouldn't be. If two MMs are bunkering a single node, you’re 5v3 on the rest of the map? They really can’t move very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exile.8160 Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 22 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: ^ Title of thread. I don't feel like I should have to explain too deeply into why this is a problem when a single Minionmancer is capable of constantly recycling 7 to potentially 14 minions if using Lich. And this isn't to mention how people like to stack them on teams lately, making it not uncommon to see two Minionmancers on the same node, creating a 14 to potentially 24 minion stack of constant cycling unblockable AoE damage that is also applying poison. It's fine that Minionmancer is tanky, but it having this much consistent unblockable damage output in conjunction with Staff unblockable, is too much unblockable damage, and largely why this build structure is overperforming in ways that it shouldn't be. Either buff all classes to be like necs or nerf necs. Theres always 3 to 4 necs each game an its getting really old. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fueki.4753 Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 Necromancer is Arenanet's current love child. As much as I would be in favour of substantial nerfs to them in sPvP, I can't see Arenanet do such a thing. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crewthief.8649 Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 14 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said: Aint no way: "The easy class" should never be the most rewarding class in any game. It's ok to have something with an easy entry level, but it is not ok if the easy entry level class is performing at higher levels than veteran players wielding what are supposed to be high risk high reward classes. The Minionmancer could accurately be described as "the easiest entry level class that is also a top meta in higher tiers, that is a low risk high reward build to play". <- Everything is wrong with that, especially when I'm seeing 2 of them on average in most games that I am in lately, unranked, ranked, and ATs. Necromancer in general is already the easy entry level class, regardless of Core Necro no minions, Reaper, Scourge no minions, it's all easy to walk into, and that's fine. But when you tie Minionmancer together, it's just too much. Again, there is a difference between being an easy build to play to get started, and being an easy low risk build to play that is somehow more rewarding than high risk high reward builds. Necro is fair enough, it doesn't need to be in a category of its own above the meta for being easy to play and the most powerful to play. I mean obviously we have problems here when veteran players go to wield this. Now we have a situation where something is so strong, there really isn't much reason to play any class/build over it that is supposed to perform the same job role. Regardless of whether or not it should be that way, that is exactly the way it is. I took a two year break and only came back about 5 or so months ago, Scourge was dominating PvP when I left. I came back, Scourge still dominating PvP and as if that weren’t enough, core, and to a lesser extent Reaper, were also dominating the scene. Just accept it and give thanks to your Necro overlords… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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