After seeing other specs realized no thought went into WB

[Black Bandit.9425]

I mean I'm a little biased but please tell me how WB skills match up with the vindicator and the bladesworn. My God they are so cool and have so much utility...don't get me started on the catalyst with viable hammer skills. Looked like so much thought was put into these other specs except WB. It was like they forgot about Guardian and was like oh we'll just make it supper mobile (kinda) and no one will notice. I could possibly be the only one who feels like this. Please tell me I'm wrong?

Edited September 19, 2021 by Black Bandit.9425

[Kodama.6453]

Seems like they didn't distribute their investments evenly between the classes, which tends to happen at anet. Sometimes some specs are just neglected and just thrown together from leftovers and what first came to mind. First case of this happening has been scrapper in HoT, which took years and several reworks to fix.

Compared to the second row of elite specs we got to know now, the first one really pales. Harbinger traits are basically all the same trait, just with condi/power/boons flavour respectively. Elixirs are all just applying boons, nothing exciting or inspired.

Willbender was a bit more fleshed out than harbinger for me, but still nothing compared to what they have designed for revenant, elementalist and warrior. It's really unfortunate, but it seems that some specs just got more attention from the design team than others.

 

[Drael.2015]

I saw someone comment here that instead of virtues being a movement skill, that they could instead augment the utilities when active. Mix that with WB flames sticking to the player and the class would suddenly be much more interesting and rewarding.

[Ezrael.6859]

Vindicator Greatsword has more damage, range and defense than Guardian's GS, it also has more effective cc with multiple chills, one on the auto-attack. And the auto hits 5 targets.

Through the utilities and traits Vindicator will also have far more self-sustain through healing, cleansing and evades then a Willbender and more damage due to the higher damage formulas from the weapon skills and the plethora of high damage utility skills. And the +240 power above 50% hp.

 

The traitlines for all 3 specs were well thought through and provide only benefits, there are none of the oppressive trade-offs like we find in the Willbender Adept and Grandmaster traits.

The Grandmaster Minor trait Empire Divided giving +240 Power above 50% hp and +240 Healing power below 50% is especially hilarious compared to Power for Power and Conceited Curate. It's as if the Willbender was made by someone that just hates the Guardian and loves the Revenant.

[Kodama.6453]

55 minutes ago, Ezrael.6859 said:

Vindicator Greatsword has more damage, range and defense than Guardian's GS, it also has more effective cc with multiple chills, one on the auto-attack. And the auto hits 5 targets.

Through the utilities and traits Vindicator will also have far more self-sustain through healing, cleansing and evades then a Willbender and more damage due to the higher damage formulas from the weapon skills and the plethora of high damage utility skills. And the +240 power above 50% hp.

 

The traitlines for all 3 specs were well thought through and provide only benefits, there are none of the oppressive trade-offs like we find in the Willbender Adept and Grandmaster traits.

The Grandmaster Minor trait Empire Divided giving +240 Power above 50% hp and +240 Healing power below 50% is especially hilarious compared to Power for Power and Conceited Curate. It's as if the Willbender was made by someone that just hates the Guardian and loves the Revenant.

The thing is that this spec is supposed to be a selfish bruiser on a class which has supportive qualities baked into the core design.

That's why these trade offs are there. To take some of the core supportive features away in favour of giving power elsewhere. It's similar to blight reducing the health pool of harbingers, a class which is supposed to be a fragile glass cannon, built upon a class  with baked in tankiness through the shroud mechanic.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Ezrael.6859]

Willbender doesn't have enough selfish damage or survivability to make up for all the trade-offs though.

You'd be better off running Core Guardian with Radiance, Valour, Virtues - GS Sw/Fc, Meditations + SYG.

The same build most damage Guardians have been running since Beta weekend 2 in 2012.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

2 hours ago, Drael.2015 said:

I saw someone comment here that instead of virtues being a movement skill, that they could instead augment the utilities when active. Mix that with WB flames sticking to the player and the class would suddenly be much more interesting and rewarding.

This would be effin' cool. It makes total sense with the physical skill category, too.

[Loules.8601]

23 hours ago, Ezrael.6859 said:

Vindicator Greatsword has more damage, range and defense than Guardian's GS, it also has more effective cc with multiple chills, one on the auto-attack. And the auto hits 5 targets.

Through the utilities and traits Vindicator will also have far more self-sustain through healing, cleansing and evades then a Willbender and more damage due to the higher damage formulas from the weapon skills and the plethora of high damage utility skills. And the +240 power above 50% hp.

Guardian have much stronger core-traits - for GS too. Also - much stronger utility, with TONS of CC and even hard-CC. 
Guardian GS - last weapon in guardian arsenal that we can present as “weaker-option”, as for Rev - GS, as it’s now, one of the weakest options for Rev.

*not Guardian - WB

Edited September 20, 2021 by Loules.8601

[Ezrael.6859]

2 minutes ago, Loules.8601 said:

Guardian have much stronger core-traits - for GS too. Also - much stronger utility, with TONS of CC and even hard-CC. 
Guardian GS - last weapon in guardian arsenal that we can present as “weaker-option”, as for Rev - GS, as it’s now, one of the weakest options for Rev.

What tons of CC and hard CC?

Guardian has some of the worst small-scale skirmish soft and hard CC options available to any profession.

If you're talking about PvEasy mobs that stand still, then I'm not.

[Loules.8601]

1 minute ago, Ezrael.6859 said:

What tons of CC and hard CC?

Guardian has some of the worst small-scale skirmish soft and hard CC options available to any profession.

If you're talking about PvEasy mobs that stand still, then I'm not.

Did you even look at new WB utilities? 😄

[Ezrael.6859]

22 minutes ago, Loules.8601 said:

Did you even look at new WB utilities? 😄

You said Guardian, you should have specified Willbender then, you're lacking clarity through a dearth of specificity in your posts.

The Roiling Light stun break + single target daze combo on a 30s cooldown is awful, you're far better off taking Stand Your Ground to break stun, gain Resolution and 5 Stability for you and 4 allies.

Heel Crack, a 2 second stun on a 20 second cooldown from melee range? That's awful. You're better off with Bane Signet (180 Power passive) + 1200 range. Or even Hammer of Wisdom! 900 range, AoE 2s knockdown vs 3 targets + blast finisher.

 

Where was the tons of soft cc and hard cc on the Willbender Utilities again? Is 1.5s Weakness (x4) on a 20s cooldown, a 2s single-target Daze tied to a 30s cooldown stun break and a 2s melee range single-target stun on a 20s cooldown considered tons?

Edited September 20, 2021 by Ezrael.6859

[Loules.8601]

1 minute ago, Ezrael.6859 said:

Heel Crack, a 2 second stun on a 20 second cooldown from melee range? That's awful.

You’ll have 5+ movement skills on WB + 25% movespeed - and you think that melee range is a problem? 😄

New WB utility - bad only on vacuum. If we consider WB spec-mechanic (hope to see no clunky mechanics at November-beta) - it’s pretty good, even very good. Traits and clunky mov-skills - … pretty bad at the moment. But it was the first-first beta, so no panic until final beta. 

Guardian have much more synergetic and stronger (as whole) traits than Rev, weapon traits (unlike Rev) and much of the guardians power - comes from traits, not weapons as a “GS by Vindicator”. And if we talk about this - Vindicator, except complexity, have not much less problems than WB. Just in different perspective and cases.

And yep - guardian was my main from ~2012 to 2019, when I played as Mesmer for few month. So no hate to guardian - and hope to see it strong - want to see my close friend to play as WB in EoD (he liked it most among all guard-espec’s at first beta, lol).. 

[Ezrael.6859]

Willbender has the worst trait line up of all the EoD elite specs so far.

In terms of the strength of individual traits and the synergy and overall benefit of whole traitlines.

[BadSanta.6527]

We have to be fair, after firebrand idont think it is possible to be hype for any new gurd elite

[otto.5684]

From an over view of the class, mobility was the only thing missing. A high mobility elite with assassin style is a perfect fit. But then someone decided to add physical utilities, not sure why. And this is just thematically.

 

I think people put too much emphasis on its performance; which surely sucked. However, once we go down from overall design, the excution is terrible. Plays exactly as already existing power build. Sword off hand is copy past from rev. 
 

It does need much work. I would like for physical utilities to be removed. Beside that, it needs identity in pve. GS/Sword is an absolute kittening no. OH sword needs full rework. And of course major balancing. Will any of this happen? Highly unlikely. Sadly, it seems that this elite will be a pass. 

[otto.5684]

11 minutes ago, BadSanta.6527 said:

We have to be fair, after firebrand idont think it is possible to be hype for any new gurd elite

That is not necessarily true. While I do like FB, I do prefer DH. And I was not hyped at all about it. I did not even play if much until fee month after release.

[Ezrael.6859]

5 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

From an over view of the class, mobility was the only thing missing. A high mobility elite with assassin style is a perfect fit. But then someone decided to add physical utilities, not sure why. And this is just thematically.

 

I think people put too much emphasis on its performance; which surely sucked. However, once we go down from overall design, the excution is terrible. Plays exactly as already existing power build. Sword off hand is copy past from rev. 
 

It does need much work. I would like for physical utilities to be removed. Beside that, it needs identity in pve. GS/Sword is an absolute kittening no. OH sword needs full rework. And of course major balancing. Will any of this happen? Highly unlikely. Sadly, it seems that this elite will be a pass. 

Physical Utilities can still work, they should just be improved to the level of Daredevil and then given a Guardian touch.

 

Roiling Light ~ 20s cooldown Break Stun + 88dmg + Blind + Weakness + Cleanse 3 conditions + Evade backwards 450 //

// Quick Retribution ~ 600 range shadowstep to target + double the current damage + Daze 2s, gain 4s Protection, Stability & Resolution (Leap Finisher)

 

Heel Crack ~ 900 range shadowstep + 2s Stun, gain 8s Might (x10), 8s Fury (Leap Finisher)

 

Whirling Light ~ Same damage + 3s Weakness in all modes + 4s Burning + 3s Cripple per hit (Whirl Finisher)

 

Flash Combo ~ Instant 900 range shadowstep + 8s Vulnerability (x10) (to allow skill combos) Rollover skill becomes... 

// Pursue 1500dmg (x5) + 600 range shadowstep towards target (to continue the pressure)

 

Heaven's Palm ~ Same AoE knockdown as now + Mini palms strike the area (240) with rapid follow-up impacts - 500 damage (x10) (5 targets max)

 

 

Rationale - These skills are all meant to be selfish and grant no boons to allies, so the power needs to be increased.

Roiling Light now competes with Stand Your Ground as a good selfish solo skirmishing option.

Heel Crack can now be used as an engage skill.

Flash Combo made instant to allow combo synergy with Whirling Wrath, Mighty Blow, Heaven's Palm etc

Whirling Light given Cripple to improve the Willbender's ability to stick to mobile targets.

Heaven's Palm given added impacts to synergise with the Virtues.

More shadowsteps given to provide more playstyle options to synergise with the trait - Vanguard Tactics and allow the selfish Willbender to spec into lots of Physical skills and keep high Resistance uptime as a protection against Blind, Weakness, Cripple and Chill which have utterly neutered melee Guardians for the past 9 years in both competitive gamemodes.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Ezrael.6859

[Monarc.9726]

I have to agree that WB seemed to be rushed out the door. We'll see how the next three elite specs play. I don't know of anyone (that plays Guardian) that tested WB and thought it was in a good place, but I honestly wasn't that impressed with Virtuoso or Harbinger either, and Mesmer and Necro are the two classes I play most after Guardian. That aside, WB was in the worst shape of the three. I don't expect every e-spec to be as good as Firebrand, but there should be equal attention given to each class , and that doesn't seem to be the case so far. The next three e-specs, Vindicator, Bladesworn and Catalyst, seem to already have been given more attention, have a more clear direction and the core mechanic for each is unique from their other specs. I didn't get that sense from the first three. Virtuoso has blades over clones...okay, that's different. Dagger was meh. Utilities are not bad. Probably better than core in terms of damage and AOE. Harbinger has a new shroud with blight and terrible elixirs, nice new movement skills, pistol isn't bad, probably wouldn't take over core right now. WB was a hot mess and that's been discussed here to death, so not going to revisit. Just hope it gets more attention and isn't discarded because Firebrand is already good...

[Loules.8601]

17 minutes ago, Monarc.9726 said:

I don't expect every e-spec to be as good as Firebrand, but there should be equal attention given to each class , and that doesn't seem to be the case so far.

Well, FB - one of the specs with more attention in PoF than many others, so I think that’s a normal situation. 
Some e-specs gain more complex mechanics in every expansion, some - less complex. 

[Exile.8160]

19 hours ago, Ezrael.6859 said:

Vindicator Greatsword has more damage, range and defense than Guardian's GS, it also has more effective cc with multiple chills, one on the auto-attack. And the auto hits 5 targets.

Through the utilities and traits Vindicator will also have far more self-sustain through healing, cleansing and evades then a Willbender and more damage due to the higher damage formulas from the weapon skills and the plethora of high damage utility skills. And the +240 power above 50% hp.

 

The traitlines for all 3 specs were well thought through and provide only benefits, there are none of the oppressive trade-offs like we find in the Willbender Adept and Grandmaster traits.

The Grandmaster Minor trait Empire Divided giving +240 Power above 50% hp and +240 Healing power below 50% is especially hilarious compared to Power for Power and Conceited Curate. It's as if the Willbender was made by someone that just hates the Guardian and loves the Revenant.

 

This truly saddens me that my main is just an after thought for anet 😞 . Guess ill wait even longerto buy Eod

 
 
 

[Exile.8160]

17 hours ago, Loules.8601 said:

You’ll have 5+ movement skills on WB + 25% movespeed - and you think that melee range is a problem? 😄

New WB utility - bad only on vacuum. If we consider WB spec-mechanic (hope to see no clunky mechanics at November-beta) - it’s pretty good, even very good. Traits and clunky mov-skills - … pretty bad at the moment. But it was the first-first beta, so no panic until final beta. 

Guardian have much more synergetic and stronger (as whole) traits than Rev, weapon traits (unlike Rev) and much of the guardians power - comes from traits, not weapons as a “GS by Vindicator”. And if we talk about this - Vindicator, except complexity, have not much less problems than WB. Just in different perspective and cases.

And yep - guardian was my main from ~2012 to 2019, when I played as Mesmer for few month. So no hate to guardian - and hope to see it strong - want to see my close friend to play as WB in EoD (he liked it most among all guard-espec’s at first beta, lol).. 

 

Lets imagine you are correct on all that.... whats the point of it all if willybender doesnt have the dmg to back it up? At this point core engi/ele are 10× better at everything which is sad.

[Trevvster.6938]

yep holding out on even buying this new expansion waiting to see if they would even improve wb. Im not even hyped for this spec at all

[otto.5684]

@Ezrael.6859 I was addressing the physical utilities from thematically. I dont think they fit with the assassin theme at all. But ya… their performance was not great either.

[Loules.8601]

3 hours ago, Exile.8160 said:

 

Lets imagine you are correct on all that.... whats the point of it all if willybender doesnt have the dmg to back it up? At this point core engi/ele are 10× better at everything which is sad.

It’s a numbers, not mechanics. 

[Puck.3697]

On 9/19/2021 at 11:04 PM, Black Bandit.9425 said:

I mean I'm a little biased but please tell me how WB skills match up with the vindicator and the bladesworn. My God they are so cool and have so much utility...don't get me started on the catalyst with viable hammer skills. Looked like so much thought was put into these other specs except WB. It was like they forgot about Guardian and was like oh we'll just make it supper mobile (kinda) and no one will notice. I could possibly be the only one who feels like this. Please tell me I'm wrong?

if u want a theory. Imho  i think its more a case where we are seeing these specs in different development times.

now imma say this With a cavat.

Willbender is a awesome concept a really good one, the problem willbender had was simple, they over estimated how much power guardian would naturally gain when combined with Mobility and Speed, Willbenders abilities did actually have alot of utility on them.. ironically ALOT more then bladesworn.. which had nothing but damage stacked on Damage realistically.

Willbender was however, severely Underpowered. so its gameplay didnt exist because of how weak it ended up being.. they relied on Guardians sustain through aegis and more to realistically carry more weight then it actually could have. however I think lots actually did enjoy willbender ALOT.

Now if we were going to through a comparison into this.

Bladesworn is Entirely built on one gimmick really and one trick ponys are never a good basket to lay in realistically. because they generally end up closer to a Meme then they do a reality, While Elementalists Hammer in some ways are really good.. it isnt so strong in others... elementalist will ironically lose ALOT going from sword to hammer even though they've complained about weaver all this time... but its creativity isnt deniable.

i think once they got data from the first 3, they would have applied the things in common to other builds

For example. Virtuoso not having core trait lines rewritten for blades instead of illusions not being all that great.. well they did this for bladesworn and i'll imagine they, have at this point also done this for virtuoso. but virt wasnt Show cased with this implemented. so people are going to react comparing it as if development on those 3 have completely stopped where they most likely havent.

I think wave 3 Spotlight we'll likkely say the same thing compared to this wave of them for the same reason.

Imho.. i think a big critism Anet should take from this beta is this exactly.. show all the Elites at the same time.. and run the beta on all the elites at the same time from the beginning. so the critism to each elite is given at the same stage of development.. instead of this staggered affect which will naturally breed Marketing problems for the speccs shown earlier compared to later.