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Returning player frustrated by toying with downed state.


Wraith.3524

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Hey fellas. I've recently started PvPing again after being out of the game for a few years.

 

It seems to be the meta now where you just kind of play with the enemy in downed state. Poke them enough to prevent bandage, stay in range and if they start to regen, hit them quick so they can't get up or respawn. It's better not to bandage so you can die faster in this situation.

 

Maybe I didn't play enough before to see this, but it feels very obnoxious to be subjected to. I know why it's done, and it makes sense - but there is no fun in knowing your time is being wasted. 

 

There's no self 'kill' button that would help feel like you're not wasting time when opponents don't finish you to stall a return to the fight.

 

I've never really been a fan of the downed state in general but accepted it as part of the game. However to me this feels awful on the receiving end, as well as when it makes sense for me to do it.

 

I don't know if anyone else thinks this or if I should just git gud or whatever, just venting how I feel about it. A seppuku button in downed state would probably fix this for me.

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15 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Rotting bodies is a legit strategy.  Don't die.  If you know you're going to die don't die off node so they have to stomp you.

I know it's a strategy, it's a mechanic in the game. There would also be strategic elements to offering an off-self in downed button if it were implemented.

Edit: Making a more conscious effort to get downed on point is valid and I'll make more of an effort to do so, so thanks for that one.

Edited by Wraith.3524
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I feel you. What you are describing is called bleeding out, and it's pretty much fundamental to the higher pvp rankings. Everyone will do it, because it's important to keep the opponents out of the match as long as possible

 

There are counters to it however. Mainly, once you're downed, just try to be as much of a danger and nuisance as humanly possible. Make them deal with you.

So like others have said, try to get downed on point. If you are downed off point but can move (like ele downed 2 which is amazing and top tier downed skill) to point then do so. It forces the enemy to down you faster, thus getting you back in the game faster.

There's not really much else to it, but learning each classes downed state is paramount because you have to deal with each one differently. For instance warriors are on a timer with their downed 3. So you either get them out quick, or save a CC to interrupt their cast, or get ready for uno reversal revival.

 

Rangers have their pet res so you always need a CC at hand when stomping them. Etc. Engi has 2 downed CC's, a pull and aoe push/explosion. So stability/evade for them. Etc etc.

Downed is the game within the game and it is pretty fun once you get an understanding of things.

Positioning first though, because yes the worst case scenario is you're downed and alone somewhere wayyyyyy off the map and at the enemies mercy. At that point you could spend 30+ secs in downed which is huge for your opponents. To avoid that, do not get dragged out into off point fights. It's hard sometimes, but you have to develop an eye/feel for it.

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1 hour ago, Wraith.3524 said:

Hey fellas. I've recently started PvPing again after being out of the game for a few years.

 

It seems to be the meta now where you just kind of play with the enemy in downed state. Poke them enough to prevent bandage, stay in range and if they start to regen, hit them quick so they can't get up or respawn. It's better not to bandage so you can die faster in this situation.

 

Maybe I didn't play enough before to see this, but it feels very obnoxious to be subjected to. I know why it's done, and it makes sense - but there is no fun in knowing your time is being wasted. 

 

There's no self 'kill' button that would help feel like you're not wasting time when opponents don't finish you to stall a return to the fight.

 

I've never really been a fan of the downed state in general but accepted it as part of the game. However to me this feels awful on the receiving end, as well as when it makes sense for me to do it.

 

I don't know if anyone else thinks this or if I should just git gud or whatever, just venting how I feel about it. A seppuku button in downed state would probably fix this for me.

 

If this is in arena or somewhere outside of a match, then yes. /gg should work in situations where you get downed outside of pvp matches and wvw.

In a pvp match or in a wvw skirmish when "no downstate" isnt turned on, the time you spend bleeding out is time you are not assisting your team, facilitating snowballs. Sorry it feels so bad, but try to understand the rationale when it isnt explicitly for bming.

 Welcome back btw. 

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8 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Rotting bodies is a legit strategy.  Don't die.  If you know you're going to die don't die off node so they have to stomp you.

 

Only in team fights, if fighting 1v1 or 1v2 die on point so they have to stomp you too or theyll either have to wait while they bleed you or let you cap the point while down which is dumb.

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8 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

I feel you. What you are describing is called bleeding out, and it's pretty much fundamental to the higher pvp rankings. Everyone will do it, because it's important to keep the opponents out of the match as long as possible

 

There are counters to it however. Mainly, once you're downed, just try to be as much of a danger and nuisance as humanly possible. Make them deal with you.

So like others have said, try to get downed on point. If you are downed off point but can move (like ele downed 2 which is amazing and top tier downed skill) to point then do so. It forces the enemy to down you faster, thus getting you back in the game faster.

There's not really much else to it, but learning each classes downed state is paramount because you have to deal with each one differently. For instance warriors are on a timer with their downed 3. So you either get them out quick, or save a CC to interrupt their cast, or get ready for uno reversal revival.

 

Rangers have their pet res so you always need a CC at hand when stomping them. Etc. Engi has 2 downed CC's, a pull and aoe push/explosion. So stability/evade for them. Etc etc.

Downed is the game within the game and it is pretty fun once you get an understanding of things.

Positioning first though, because yes the worst case scenario is you're downed and alone somewhere wayyyyyy off the map and at the enemies mercy. At that point you could spend 30+ secs in downed which is huge for your opponents. To avoid that, do not get dragged out into off point fights. It's hard sometimes, but you have to develop an eye/feel for it.

Yeah, I get you. I can respect that people like it especially since it's been in since inception. I started back in pre-launch beta so I'm not too unfamilair with the varied classes and downstate abilities. Not exactly a hardcore GW2 pvp player but have been in hardcore pvp in several other games, and this part made me feel a surprising lack of agency I hadn't experienced.

 

In the end it is strategic and a core point of the game to be worked around. I'll play around with the tactics but it's entirely possible than GW2 pvp could just not be for me which is also a fine outcome. Ultimately I was caught off guard that I couldn't off myself during that interaction and was wondering if anyone else had a similar feeling about the mechanic. If not, no big deal.

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5 hours ago, Wraith.3524 said:

Not sure what you expect. Didn't even say no downstate, did I?


You said and I quote: “A sepuku button in downstate would fix this for me”

 

so yes you basically said downstate needs “fixing” with a mechanic that essentially removes downstate and the strategic elements that are tied to its uses.

 

Complaining about downstate is the equivalent to complaining about the dodge mechanic. Just because some people don’t know how to effectively dodge attacks, doesn’t mean the mechanic is at fault

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15 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:


You said and I quote: “A sepuku button in downstate would fix this for me”

 

so yes you basically said downstate needs “fixing” with a mechanic that essentially removes downstate and the strategic elements that are tied to its uses.

 

Complaining about downstate is the equivalent to complaining about the dodge mechanic. Just because some people don’t know how to effectively dodge attacks, doesn’t mean the mechanic is at fault

Fix this 'for me'. My opinion. I voiced the feeling that I got in the situation the downstate allowed.

 

I was speaking towards a feeling I got when in a situation as a result of the mechanic. If you read the whole post or previous responses, I specifically asked if anyone else felt this way or if it was on me.

 

Also, it would add alternative strategies just as any buff, nerf, or tweak would.

 

It's clear it's on me, but the vibe you put out like it's some divine mechanic that's so above being curious about doesn't help anything.

 

You said you have 'no sympathy' for discussions on this. Not only does that statement come off as hostile and dense, but discussions on mechanics don't require sympathy.

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On 9/20/2021 at 1:57 PM, Wraith.3524 said:

Yeah, I get you. I can respect that people like it especially since it's been in since inception. I started back in pre-launch beta so I'm not too unfamilair with the varied classes and downstate abilities. Not exactly a hardcore GW2 pvp player but have been in hardcore pvp in several other games, and this part made me feel a surprising lack of agency I hadn't experienced.

 

In the end it is strategic and a core point of the game to be worked around. I'll play around with the tactics but it's entirely possible than GW2 pvp could just not be for me which is also a fine outcome. Ultimately I was caught off guard that I couldn't off myself during that interaction and was wondering if anyone else had a similar feeling about the mechanic. If not, no big deal.

I understand where you are coming from. You may like downstate more or less, but when the enemy can just full bleed you it does feel devastating as you waste a lot of time. As others have said, the best way to counter this is trying to avoid dying in situations where they can just safely bleed you. Dying on point (or movin towards one in downstate), or being close to your teammates for a potential rezz make bleeding a downed less desirable and so its likely they will kill/stomp you. On the other hand, the whole bleeding mechanic makes it more likely for you to go into a lost fight and maybe get a sneaky rezz, as players will try to greed and not stomp the body, so its a bit of a risk/reward. Ultimately, its all about attitude: yes, getting bled in downstate is annoying, but you can take that time to think about why u died, and what is the course of action you should take when you respawn, and who knows, maybe you get rezzed by that stealthy thief just hanging around!

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6 hours ago, Wraith.3524 said:

You said you have 'no sympathy' for discussions on this. Not only does that statement come off as hostile and dense, but discussions on mechanics don't require sympathy.


i have no sympathy for you on the topic because this topic has been discussed hundred and hundreds of times. We have a “no downstate week” in WvW every 3ish months because of it. 
 

Playing during this time period you can immediately see the results of what the game becomes when there is no downstate…one shot big meme builds that capitalize on neutralizing a target before the team has the chance to react with a viable counter strategy. Players also completely abandon the notion of fighting alone and will always huddle even closer to avoid being singled out to die (aka it encourages zerging)

 

so those of us that have played the game for years now, know what happens when downstate is removed…the game becomes degenerate, and boring.

 

About this: “Lastly it would add alternative strategy like any nerf, buff or tweak would.”


This you are wrong about. I won’t explain the detail about why…because “alternate” is an appropriate word to use here…but “alternative” does not equal “more” or “good” strategy.
 

And lastly…for the past 1.5 years, the modus operandi for the balance team has been to nerf or remove whatever thing the forum decides to complain about…forcing us into the current meta we have today…with very little build diversity, very little alternative strategies, and lastly very dull and homogenous gameplay.
 

So this might come as a surprise to you but there is a history that you missed out on, that you aren’t acknowledging…I think if you understood that a little better…then my post shouldn’t be that much of a surprise to you.

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10 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

So this might come as a surprise to you but there is a history that you missed out on, that you aren’t acknowledging…I think if you understood that a little better…then my post shouldn’t be that much of a surprise to you.

You're purposefully misrepresenting what I said.

 

I keep repeating, I'm not even saying downstate should be removed. Adding an off-yourself button does not remove downstate. Yes, removing downstate wholly would require an entire rebalance of the game since the game is based on its existence. Allowing one to end themselves early would change the dynamic of very specific parts of PvP, where the complete removal wouldn't work without significant overhaul that likely wont happen. I do agree with that, and I have already acknowledged several times that it's on me in the current state of things.

 

Yet - your entire reply is based on the assumption that I'm advocating for removal of downstate. I'm not. In the original post I specifically say I've accepted downstate as part of the game. If you believe adding a kill-yourself command in downstate is exactly the same as wholesale removing downstate, I very plainly disagree with that.

 

You came in with an assumption contrary to the words I wrote, cited how disastrous no-downstate weekend is (I'm not advocating for the removal of downstate), and implied this simply shouldn't be discussed by non-veterans. You didn't say you had no sympathy for me initially, you said no sympathy for discussions on the topic at large. We're discussing it, others have more respectfully agreed and disagreed. If you fear a Streisand-effect where allowing mere discussion of something could get the game changed for the worse, it's in one's best interest not to critique anything on the forums.

 

If you want to argue with posts about removing downstate, there are the hundreds of others you're referencing. I may not have your prestigious sympathy, but you have mine for misinterpreting the post.

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10 hours ago, Wraith.3524 said:

Yet - your entire reply is based on the assumption that I'm advocating for removal of downstate. I'm not....

 

...(I'm not advocating for the removal of downstate)

 

Actually, you are. Just because you say or believe in something, doesn't mean the actions you take truly reflect what you are say or think you believe. 

 

I can be the president and say "I love eating hamburgers, but I don't like animal cruelty..." But if I decide to mandate the removal of fences around all cattle farms... then guess what...you may have saved the cows, but there will be no more hamburgers for you to eat.

 

Like downstate...you want to add a specific mechanic that effectively removes the strategies tied to the downstate mechanic...just because you keep "repeating" that you aren't asking it to be removed, doesn't mean that the action you want to do, which is adding a self-kill button, isn't going to effectively remove downstate, and all the strategic elements it's tied to.

 

There is nothing complicated about what I'm saying. You seem to have trouble processing it, and you seem to redirect that inability to process that, as me misrepresenting what you said. It's obvious to me at least, that just like in your original post, you are redirecting your capacity to cope with someone or something you don't agree with, and simply blaming somebody else for a problem that you are having...which now in this case is our discussion.

 

Maybe you didn't ask for another opinion...but I gave you my opinion and some facts that support that opinion. You, right now are just acting like a sn0wfl@ke.

 

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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47 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Actually, you are. Just because you say or believe in something, doesn't mean the actions you take truly reflect what you are say or think you believe. 

 

I can be the president and say "I love eating hamburgers, but I don't like animal cruelty..." But if I decide to mandate the removal of fences around all cattle farms... then guess what...you may have saved the cows, but there will be no more hamburgers for you to eat.

 

Like downstate...you want to add a specific mechanic that effectively removes the strategies tied to the downstate mechanic...just because you keep "repeating" that you aren't asking it to be removed, doesn't mean that the action you want to do, which is adding a self-kill button, isn't going to effectively remove downstate, and all the strategic elements it's tied to.

 

There is nothing complicated about what I'm saying. You seem to have trouble processing it, and you seem to redirect that inability to process that, as me misrepresenting what you said. It's obvious to me at least, that just like in your original post, you are redirecting your capacity to cope with someone or something you don't agree with, and simply blaming somebody else for a problem that you are having...which now in this case is our discussion.

 

Maybe you didn't ask for another opinion...but I gave you my opinion and some facts that support that opinion. You, right now are just acting like a sn0wfl@ke.

 

You do realize that asking to be able to skip down state for oneself by introducing a kill self option is fundamentally different from completely  removing down state for everyone, right?

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2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

You do realize that asking to be able to skip down state for oneself by introducing a kill self option is fundamentally different from completely  removing down state for everyone, right?


Here’s an example to show that they aren’t fundamentally different:

 

We all play PVP matches. We all get a button called an “I win” button. which by pressing you get a win for a match.

 

does the implementation of that button remove pvp from the game?…PvP is still there…you have the option to not press the button right? So we didn’t remove PvP from the game.

 

the absurdity behind this feature is that, nobody would ever not hit the button…and so in effect you removed PvP from the game…

 

so just like downstate…adding a button that bypasses it is equivalent to just not having it at all.

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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11 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:


Here’s an example to show that they aren’t fundamentally different:

 

We all play PVP matches. We all get a button called an “I win” button. which by pressing you get a win for a match.

 

does the implementation of that button remove pvp from the game?…PvP is still there…you have the option to not press the button right? So we didn’t remove PvP from the game.

 

the absurdity behind this feature is that, nobody would ever not hit the button…and so in effect you removed PvP from the game…

 

so just like downstate…adding a button that bypasses it is equivalent to just not having it at all.

 

14 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

...something you don't agree with, and simply blaming somebody else for a problem that you are having...which now in this case is our discussion.

 

Maybe you didn't ask for another opinion...but I gave you my opinion and some facts that support that opinion. You, right now are just acting like a sn0wfl@ke.

 

There's nothing complicated about what I'm saying either, and you are making an argument that removal is exactly the same thing as adding a kill-yourself button. This is not accurate.

 

If you are saying that everyone would always pick the kill-yourself button, every time, you are suggesting there is no merit to downstate beyond position checking and wasting time. In fact, down state with a kill-yourself button is not functionally the same, because there are still benefits to downstate. You can rally. You can get revived. You can interrupt for your team, or push enemies off points. Enemies still want to finish you off, because you still have a chance to return to the fight. All of these downstate benefits are gone if it is completely removed. As a theory crafter, you can see why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch, so I'm sure you can see this too.

 

 

The two cases simply aren't the same. I did ask for other opinions and still welcome them. My opinion of this interaction is: I believe you interpreted my first post as the same as others suggesting to completely remove downstate - and are now trying to equivocate two completely different changes to make it seem like you weren't wrong about the initial interpretation. Either that or you truly do believe they're equivalent, to which hopefully I've explained my end adequately. There is indeed merit to considering whether it should be added or not, but gg button = downstate removal isn't a strong argument. The positioning point is much better. I agree with you that full removal alone would be a bad thing.

 

 

Lastly, if you want to continue to insult by calling me a snowflake and revoking unnecessary sympathy, you weaken your words. I'd hope you're better than that, but I've got a shovel if you want to keep digging.

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2 hours ago, Wraith.3524 said:

In fact, down state with a kill-yourself button is not functionally the same, because there are still benefits to downstate

And that's exactly why there shouldn't be a kill-self button. If you want the benefits of downstate you should also have to deal with the occasional downsides (with the former outweighting the latter by far anyway).

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4 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

And that's exactly why there shouldn't be a kill-self button. If you want the benefits of downstate you should also have to deal with the occasional downsides (with the former outweighting the latter by far anyway).

Fair point. I still kinda think a runback and forfeiting the objective via surrender is a decent downside to kill-self, but clearly they disabled /gg in sPvP intentionally and had a reason for it. Your reason and the capture point positioning/ability to capture while downed are probably a significant factor.

Edited by Wraith.3524
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2 hours ago, Wraith.3524 said:

Fair point. I still kinda think a runback and forfeiting the objective via surrender is a decent downside to kill-self, but clearly they disabled /gg in sPvP intentionally and had a reason for it. Your reason and the capture point positioning/ability to capture while downed are probably a significant factor.

 

And it's not just the downsides that you can effectively bypass with such a button but also a lot of the upside. Just a few examples of all the strategies that are essentially bypassed with the button:

 

1) I'm a Tempest in a 2v2, with my ally in the downstate and I'm about to cast glyph of Renewal on my ally...I need just a few seconds to CC the enemies that are slapping me around so I can cast the skill...I cc'd them now I'm about to get the clutch resurrect...but nope! My ally decides to /gg and thus, doom the team-fight.

 

2) I'm a Reaper, so you as an enemy with big bolas, decide to take me on in a 1v1. You are very brash because you think you can secure the kill with ease. I then surprise you, and I end up beating you in that 1v1. Technically, you should be punished for playing bad and on such an opportunity I would leave you to bleed out... but of course you /gg...bypassing that punishment...

 

but lets say you didn't /gg just yet because a teammate is coming over...For me this is great, because I love when an enemy comes to try to resurrect an ally in downstate, so I can get a double kill. Ally decides to resurrect, I decide to cleave, and my cleave is bigger than his capacity to resurrect so I might get the double kill...but your not that dumb...instead of letting that ally resurrect you, instead you /gg because you know that a cleave would kill your partner. So not only did you deny the punishment of being bled out, but you also denied the punishment of my team netting a double kill for attempting to resurrect you...again both situations in which the enemy team should be punished for playing poorly, instead of me, being rewarded for playing good.

 

3) In a world where bunkers overwhelmingly have taken over spvp, bleeding them out is an important strategy because it prevents "suicide bunkers." Bunkers that, when they die, simply respawn and run right back to the node to keep it under contest. You can imagine in matches with 2 bunkers, how frustrating it is when one dies, the other survives long enough for the other to come back, effectively cycling the bunkers in a perpetual neutral or not neutral node holding. A /gg button would expedite the speed at which these suicide bunkers can keep a node in contest and be a lot more of a problem. Bleeding out, and luring the other bunker to a res scenario (to do a cleave double kill) is one of the biggest counter strategies to this suicide bunker strategy. A /gg button essentially removes this element.

 

So like Umbra said already, the button gives you the option to stay in downstate to enjoy it's benefits, while effectively bypassing any if not all of it's punishments. Some of those benefits are also lost because of players making the autonomous decision to just /gg when they think it's the right call when it might have not been the right call at all. How many thieves do you see teleporting out of a res from an ally? replace that button with a /gg button and I assure you, you will see the same behavior of players just /gg-ing in the middle of a res. 

 

 

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