Druid: a rework to make it feel good. This is a long text wall. Vol. 4

[Lazze.9870]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I've read your suggestion and, well, they are arguable. At least they aren't any more valid than mine (And mine ask for a lot less work than yours). You think that druid's issue is that he is "too gated to be an effective healer", I think that druid's issue is that "the avatar is to focused on healing".

The difference between your suggestion and mine is that mine would bring druid up to par to as a support outside of PvE, yours is actually completely useless outside of pve.

Which honestly tells me enough.

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You, on another hand, want many things in many areas that touch the core ranger as much as it touch the druid and thus would probably create many issues on their own on other e-specs.

There is no way you read my entire comment and concluded that I want as many changes on core as I want on druid. I noted three specific changes on Nature Magic traits that are either rarely used and/or already supportive in nature, and they were all more suggestive than specific changes.

The bond traits in particular, with the exception of clarion bond, are terrible traits and need to be looked at regardless.

 

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I think the fact that you see the ranger and the druid as 2 separated entities is the problem here.

I'm just pointing out the fact that calling them unique druid buffs over and over again is wrong. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[anduriell.6280]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You think that druid's issue is that he is "too gated to be an effective healer", I think that druid's issue is that "the avatar is to focused on healing". 

This is exactly my way of thought.

The issue I see with the Druid is not the gated mechanics as actually there is none, just applying aoe regeneration you will fill the bar before the 10 seconds cd is up. Troll unguent almost fill the bar up. The main issue is it does only healing. I pointed this out in the old forums, from the very beta review and I guess I was right.

 

Even in raids it’s kinda of meh just taken because it can keep the spirits alive for longer at least until the pugs realize there are better sources of might and the soulbeast  is able to keep them alive as well with commands and some healing power.

 

 The main challenge is how you give all the utilities / effects needed to feel useful but not creating another firebrand/scourge.

The only way I could see is to split such effects into different aspects and limit the reach each aspect has. That way the elite get to accomplish 2 things: it makes the Druid feel different than core and it’s also easier to balance as the effects aren’t mashed up together in one skill.

[Lazze.9870]

15 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

The issue I see with the Druid is not the gated mechanics as actually there is none, just applying aoe regeneration you will fill the bar before the 10 seconds cd is up. Troll unguent almost fill the bar up.

The avatar has a 20 second cooldown in PvP, and being double gated behind both that cooldown and the requirement to be at full astral force to enter it means you have to be very considerate when you want to enter the avatar to get the most value out of it. There is no flow to it in comparison to other support builds. Especially with traits like Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow, which promotes the entire kit as a way to disengange.

In WvW you're better off with a lower cooldown and lots of sources to get astral force ticks from regen, so your avatar will be up when the cooldown is off, but you're still too limited in your support when you're locked out of it in comparison to a scrapper that can go in and out of its med kit as it wishes.

 

15 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

The main issue is it does only healing. I pointed this out in the old forums, from the very beta review and I guess I was right.

It's not. It's not even an issue. You want to do damage? Don't enter the avatar that is meant to heal people. A scrapper doesn't do damage with its med kit. A healbrand doesn't do damage with its F2 tome. Not doing damage with the avatar is not an issue. It only becomes an issue because you want druid to be something different than what it is.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[RyuDragnier.9476]

9 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

It's not. It's not even an issue. You want to do damage? Don't enter the avatar that is meant to heal people. A scrapper doesn't do damage with its med kit. A healbrand doesn't do damage with its F2 tome. Not doing damage with the avatar is not an issue. It only becomes an issue because you want druid to be something different than what it is.

Druid in general doesn't really do damage, nobody takes it for that, it's taken to buff/heal everybody else so they do the damage. It doesn't even really have builds that it could use for decent/good damage. You'd be better off with a base Ranger or Soulbeast if you wanted damage compared to Druid right now.

[anduriell.6280]

19 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

The avatar has a 20 second cooldown in PvP, and being double gated behind both that cooldown and the requirement to be at full astral force to enter it means you have to be very considerate when you want to enter the avatar to get the most value out of it. There is no flow to it in comparison to other support builds. Especially with traits like Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow, which promotes the entire kit as a way to disengange

That is a very good point, although i can not agree in the double gated argument. With the nerf to strike damage Druid will always be able to fill the bar before the 10s/20s CD has run out. 

But i do agree about evasion traits not having any bussiness with an elite of this characteristics. A core profession which is designed to kite can't not have so much access to evade/de-tagging/healing  in their elite. 

 

19 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

In WvW you're better off with a lower cooldown and lots of sources to get astral force ticks from regen, so your avatar will be up when the cooldown is off, but you're still too limited in your support when you're locked out of it in comparison to a scrapper that can go in and out of its med kit as it wishes.

Well those are different designs. In any case Engi has an spot in wvw not because of the healing but because of  Purity_of_Purpose . Even  when  anet tries to nerf it it won't matter because that is an unique effect the Engi brings on.

 

19 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

It's not. It's not even an issue. You want to do damage? Don't enter the avatar that is meant to heal people. A scrapper doesn't do damage with its med kit. A healbrand doesn't do damage with its F2 tome. Not doing damage with the avatar is not an issue. It only becomes an issue because you want druid to be something different than what it is.

The thing is even when the druid is in avatar state, because it keeps full pet functionality it can and will do damage. Obviously this does not scale at all against more than one target but that's the trick of it.

It makes the Druid extremely obnoxious 1v1 (druidic clarity, celestial shadows, ancient seeds) which can not hold points because of the stealth yet  not rewarding in any group content. Removing the 10s cd will not do any good to improve that. My thoughts are no amount of numbers wiggling will fix druid and it need a deep dive to rework the whole spec to make sense. 

 

Thus all this reworks: Druid loses the control over the pet(F1-F2-F3) which dimishes the 1v1 capabilites while at the same time it gain access to a couple of offesive aspects which will not heal the druid but will offer better cleave/squad offensive utility. Yet it has access to the heal part but it will not offer as much support as now. And never everything at the same time.

Even the glyphs are reworked to work better in group scenerarios while also offering a counter to their mechanic so they are fairier against enemy players. It is a lot of work, i realize that but i think in case of the druid this amount of work is necessary. 

 

[Lazze.9870]

15 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Well those are different designs. In any case Engi has an spot in wvw not because of the healing but because of  Purity_of_Purpose . Even  when  anet tries to nerf it it won't matter because that is an unique effect the Engi brings on.

 

Scrapper isn't meta solely because of Purity of Purpose, even though its stupid strong on its own. The number of cleanses is superior to anyone, the conversion is the icing on the top. The healing numbers from the medkit is really strong. Then there is the superspeed and easy access to group stealth. It's the entire package, not just a singular trait.

[anduriell.6280]

18 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

Scrapper isn't meta solely because of Purity of Purpose, even though its stupid strong on its own. The number of cleanses is superior to anyone, the conversion is the icing on the top. The healing numbers from the medkit is really strong. Then there is the superspeed and easy access to group stealth. It's the entire package, not just a singular trait.

Well yes you are totally right, I just wanted to keep it simple.

[Lazze.9870]

On 10/3/2021 at 10:29 PM, RyuDragnier.9476 said:

Druid in general doesn't really do damage, nobody takes it for that, it's taken to buff/heal everybody else so they do the damage. It doesn't even really have builds that it could use for decent/good damage. You'd be better off with a base Ranger or Soulbeast if you wanted damage compared to Druid right now.

The point isn't that druid does decent damage, the point is that the damage druid has comes through weapons, the pet and your two remaining trait lines, and not by entering a mode that is designed to heal people. Like, if you think you have to tell anyone that core or soulbeast is better to deal decent damage, then you might wanna consider taking a step back and make sure you understand what you're replying to.

Tacking on arbitrary damage to the avatar skills doesn't make druid a good damage dealer either, the traits themselves automatically makes it a worse damage dealer than core and especially soulbeast. Which makes the argument that it would require a lot less rework than what I suggested if they just added some damage to it moot because they would need to some trait changes anyways. If the avatar is gonna be dependent on Lingering Light to heal at all, which was the suggestion being made, then the two minors make no sense.

Druid should be played as a support primarly, that's the entire point. Fix the stuff that is lacking so it can do that job on a competetive level outside of PvE. Adding damage to it doesn't help in that regard. It will add some pressure while in the avatar as well, but the damage overall will still be low. I'm not even against making the skills do both damage and heals and properly scale with both stats, but any redesigns on skills and traits should be done to improve it as a support first and foremost and adding damage to the avatar is not a necessity to achieve that. There is nothing wrong with having an elite spec that is primarly taken to play supportive. Especially not with a third elite spec coming soon and core itself not being good at supporting either. It fills a niche ranger can't do without an elite spec, and that's better than having it spiraling down a way where it isn't really good at anything.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Lazze.9870]

23 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Well yes you are totally right, I just wanted to keep it simple.

 

Well, that's kinda meaningless. It would still be meta without the conversion.

It also doesn't matter if the designs are different, they can redesign the access to avatar in way that still deals with astral force while at the same time making the heals more accessible and better to use.

Scrapper is busted anyway, even with all the changes I suggested druid won't kick scrapper out of the wvw meta, not even if they removed purity of purpose. But it would make druid able to perform at a better level as a support in general. And that's good enough.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[anduriell.6280]

19 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

But it would make druid able to perform at a better level as a support in general. And that's good enough.

If Anet decides to do any actual changes I personally would not like those to be just good enough, I would like them  to be fun  and very good.

This is my way of showing ideas which I would enjoy playing with with the specific thematic from the elite.

Edited October 4, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Dezember.1295]

Alright, I have barely played druid at all. I played them a bit when they had a really good build for sPvP bunkering years ago, but other than that I have never touched them.

I have not raided either, but I believe that I have been told that druids are pretty much mandatory for raiding due to spirits + might stacking (?). I know for a fact that I saw support druids in fracts quite often for a while (first full healing, then full zerker) for might buffing and healing, but that trend quickly died out after PoF. At least from my limited experience.

 

In any case - I have a question for our druid and WvW enthusiasts (and I feel like this is an appropriate place to ask since we're discussing druid changes here). What exactly does the druid need to be a viable option for WvW zerging? 

I also want to ask, we have a test build from Metabattle called "immob druid" - have anyone tested it yet? I was thinking about giving it a go, but no matter how much I think about it, I cannot think of many things that the druid would do better than the immob beast.

I have read this entire discussion and from what I gather (from a sPvP / WvW point of view) - the biggest letdown compared to FB/engi and even auramancer is 1) Druid's AF is much less reliable than the tomes / medkit as it is doublegated (or at least much heavier gated than the tomes and medkit). 2) Spirits are the worst in WvW as they are squishy and immobile. 3) Their tiny projectile block is not good enough, and their buff/cleanse and pure healing potential is simply lower than FB/scrapper.. 4) Pets in WvW = dead, dead, and dead. 5) Druids lack condi-cleanse on the levels that the other professions can provide - while not being quite able to match their buffing nor healing output either.

Is there anything else? Am I completely mistaken somehwer? What do we need to fix this without breaking druid in PvE content? (idk if "breaking" something healingwise in PvE even is a thing, but yeh)

Edited October 5, 2021 by Dezember.1295

[anduriell.6280]

There are a lot of questions there, let me answer first although i am sure plenty of other players will give you very good answers too. 

16 minutes ago, Dezember.1295 said:

What happened to sPvP bunker druid? 

That build was very oppresive so it got nerfed in many different aspects. Oppresive on the concept that was an unkillable build which had the capabilities to duel 1vMany and still win. 

16 minutes ago, Dezember.1295 said:

Is Druid used in raids because spirits and might stacking (from Grace_of_the_Land )

Actually just spirits. Healing and might stacking is used because it is there but not the main reason. Frost and Sun spirits are the main reason ranger may be required in raids and Druid is used more often because it can keep them alive for longer. 

16 minutes ago, Dezember.1295 said:

What exactly does the druid need to be a viable option for WvW zerging? 

I would ask better, What does the Druid lacks to be a viable option? 

* A weapon designed for support in zergs. 

* Avatar and utility(glyphs) skills which do anything else than heal.

* A way to keep the pet alive / revive it faster. 

16 minutes ago, Dezember.1295 said:

Is immodruid or immobeast any good in WvW?

In Guild vs Guild it has an spot. Lazze knows much more about it.  I personally don't like it, i don't find it very useful in a general setting and it's only useful in guild comps  (2 teams, ~15 players each) 

16 minutes ago, Dezember.1295 said:

Is druid so bad in WvW as it seems? 

No, if you play druid you will definitely will survive. The trailblazzer ancient seeds variant is used for griefing players as it is practically a bunker druid 2.0 and very effective against single targets becasue of the immob spam. 

It is just current version is not fun to play with or against and offers nothing to other players within the team.

16 minutes ago, Dezember.1295 said:

What do we need to fix this without breaking druid in PvE content?

A full rework as i give here. Other small adjustments will not work because from the my point of view The druid is binary design which cannot be fixed with a simple number adjustement. It heals and only heals, so or it heals or it doesn't. 

 

 

[Dezember.1295]

Cheers, Anduriell!

Imma put my reply in spoiler sections just to avoid a massive wall of text.

Regarding bunker druids:

Spoiler

I am painfully aware of how oppressive the bunker druid was (... Ahem, guilty as charged for using it). :'] So their nerfs hardly surprised me. 

Regarding raiding druids,

Spoiler

That's intriguing. I wouldn't have imagined that one would choose a druid for spirits alone when one can get a SB with spirits (and stanceshare) instead. Oh well, guess I should so some reading on raids in general - it is just that WoW literally killed any motivation I ever had regarding raids in MMORPGs - I feel bored just thinking about it. X] I move around in all other aspects of the game, though.

Regarding WvW druid, and your suggestions:

Spoiler

Makes sense. Staff is a lackluster in general, and I always felt like it's abilities have been very clunky to say the very least. The glyphs are kinda "hmm" as well, and the pet... Well yes. Pets rarely mix well with zergs. It does not surprise me that druids can stay alive with ease - but I'd prefer bringing more to my team than just... Survivability for myself. x] Hence I currently run immobeast with stance-share if I'd be bored enough to temporary join a zerg with a ranger.

Regarding immobeast:

Spoiler

Works alright-ish. Definitely not the best zerg-build I've played - but I am happy to just have something that isn't instantly frowned upon (more than usual). I roam (much) more often than I zerg, so hence my experience with zergs have been lacking as of recent years. It has decent tagging, pretty neat survivability and it is great at holding enemies straying too far out of the blob down.

Thanks for your reply! I did read the overhaul you suggested, and these are my initial thoughts (do consider that I am by no means qualified for theory-crafting, these are all just based on subjective initial feeling - and I refuse to be responsible if a "proper" theory crafter has a heart attack reading the following :] ):
 

Spoiler

While I think 3 separate AF would be cool af (pun intended) I do believe it would simply be too many buttons for most players - AAAND too much effort for Anet considering that we can only stay in AF for very short periods of time.

If we'd go by your rehaul as base, then initially I'd even lean as far as giving the druid wisps INSTEAD of pets. Of course, I'd dislike the idea of forcing a druid to be petless, so my take would be that if the druid "stows" the pet - then they buff their wisp instead, effects depending on the type of pet that was stowed. I guess it would make most sense if this could only be done OUTSIDE of combat, to prevent the druid from being better at merging their pet in and out of existence than the actual soulbeast.

... Anyways, my biggest concern regarding druid right now is actually the staff skills. I do not quite agree on giving it a friendly targetable beam, but instead I'd rather have the beam removed all together and replaced by some sort of cone (like tomes), or area of effect around the druid (area-wise something like AF 4), that pulses heals for allies and burns/poisons/do-something-damagelike on enemies. I am also very much for the suggestion brought up by someone above, that the staff 5 should be a dome. :D

 

[Lazze.9870]

14 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

If Anet decides to do any actual changes I personally would not like those to be just good enough, I would like them  to be fun  and very good.

Making a support spec have better flow with how it supports will automatically make it more fun.

To me, when people want to add damage and all sort of things to the spec that won't help its way of supporting, it sounds more like their problem is the fact that it is a support spec.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Lazze.9870]

3 hours ago, Dezember.1295 said:

In any case - I have a question for our druid and WvW enthusiasts (and I feel like this is an appropriate place to ask since we're discussing druid changes here). What exactly does the druid need to be a viable option for WvW zerging? 

 

It is viable, but not as a replacement to your scrapper. You play it the same way you would play immobbeast, but instead of damage and shared bear and dolyak stance, you bring healing and cleansing, possibly might sharing if you don't run ancient seeds (which most of the time doesn't make a huge impact in large fights anyways). Druid has a better immob outpout than immobbeast.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POgAYZlVwYYLMO2JWuOpt9S2wcA-zRJYjR1/hkkIIVJQ1KBNOA-e

Just an example build. You can experiement with stats, runes. Celestial with tempest runes gives you 80 % duration on your immob skills, etc. Glyph heal instead of HS for burst heal instead of a cleansing water field. Signet of the Wild for even more immob if you can manage without the stunbreak. Lots of options.

On my opinion on how to make it more viable as a support in general, take a look at my first comment in this thread. In short, a less gated mechanic, a change to the pet and buffs or reworks to underperforming abilites. But as far as a "viable option" goes, one that you'd be fine with replacing a scrapper... Well, they would have to nerf scrapper. It does too much, and its at the top of the class for everything it does.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[anduriell.6280]

14 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POgAYZlVwYYLMO2JWuOpt9S2wcA-zRJYjR1/hkkIIVJQ1KBNOA-e

Why not Longbow thou? Barrage + Lunar impact is ranged Ancient seeds on 5 targets. That's the same effective as entangle. 

So your rotation would be Staff stuff -> Longbow LB5 -> Longbow LB5 ->  Lunar impact -> Lunar impact.  Just keep some pause between barrages to reposition and give time to quickdraw to recharge. 

Although i would use troll unguent instead the trap and MS for Moment_of_Clarity better becuase the actual use of ancient seeds is only once by rotation with the LB. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Lazze.9870]

3 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Why not Longbow thou? Barrage + Lunar impact is ranged Ancient seeds on 5 targets. That's the same effective as entangle. 

So your rotation would be Staff stuff -> Longbow LB5 -> Longbow LB5 ->  Lunar impact -> Lunar impact.  Just keep some pause between barrages to reposition and give time to quickdraw to recharge. 

 

My build is meant for organized play (that's why Healing Spring is there, and not Troll Unguent). Barrage + Lunar Impact is a one trick pony that becomes harder to pull off the better groups you fight. Playing exclusively with staff and swapping in and out of the avatar to proc quickdraw Vine Surge and use MT and Entangle in spikes/bubbles/enemy backline allows you to be much more reactive and stay with your group than if you have to fumble around with longbow. There is no guarantee to even pull off that five man Ancient Seed anyways; if one foe is CCed already, the cooldown goes off.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[kaan.5074]

I think the main issue is unlike many other elite spec archetypes, the term "druid" is a too broad theme to become just elite spec.

 

I dont know much about gw lore but in many iterations, ranger and druid share only very vague similarites via nature. But main theme of ranger is survival albeit druid is about natural balance. Ranger utilizes survival skills and with martial mastery to pathfind, track and survive in habitats but druid is about being one with them in more magical way.

 

In terms of gameplay in most settings, ranger and druid share nearly nothing similar. This is why I think the main problem with druid in this game is it should have been a whole realized profession with its duality/balance theme, natural magic mastery, spiritshifts etc.. instead of elite spec. "Dragonhunter", scrapper" etc.. are all archetype names but "druid" is a theme with very rich background that comes from old fantasy/myths.

 

Anet should have called this espec with different name with better focus on core ranger mechanic(pet). Druid theme has many specialties that could have been reslized as a full class.