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I would love to play an elemental mage, not the piano, please?


Aedil.1296

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Hi, I was wondering if anyone feels the same? 

I truly believe ele needs a massive tweak to being it in line with other classes. 

I remember waiting gw2 after 5 years playing gw1. When I first played ele in gw2 it was the most fun class ever. Ele was such a complete and adaptable class, just switching element you could focus on damage/healing/cc and you could really make a difference in a party. The combat was so dinamic and fun. Now playing gw2 equals memorizing the same series of skill over and over again hoping u don't get a cast wrong and to basically achieve even less than what other classes do with much less effort. It really does feel like playing the piano! Not to mention weaver is basically a dance to stay alive. If u look at necro they can do more than eles pressing 1/10th of the button and with a second health bar. 

I dunno I just feel like I'm tired of playing other classes cause I cannot play my main as it's basically useless/gives me headache every time I use it. 

I just wanted to know if I was the only one feeling like this. 

Anet kept nerfing ele so much that it feels like impossible for me to play. 

I saw the catalyst presentation and it basically felt like a copy/paste of a scrapper with a bit of mid range?

 

Hammer skill 3 felt like an interesting mechanic that was probably meant for weaver elite stance but got scrapped and now added to hammer. 

I dunno... how do u guys feel? 

Edited by Aedil.1296
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  • Aedil.1296 changed the title to I would love to play an elemental mage, not the piano, please?

I think this was the general idea of tempest - remove the reliance on constant attunement swapping by giving an incentive to remain in one attunement for longer periods. Weaver seems designed to cater for the piano players. Catalyst...does feel as if it's gone back a bit to choosing attunements based on the tactical situation, apart from the hammer 3 interactions, and even then I don't think you lose too much from just using each attunement's hammer 3 separately.

 

More elite specs with more options would certainly help, but I think that's mainly a consequence of GW2 being backburnered for a few years after PoF.

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I just don't understand this need of forcing eles melee when they cannot even properly defend themselves. Come on look at scrappers for example, they build a HUGE amount of barrier non stop! Wanna compare it on how weaver builds barrier? 

 

Anet just doesn't like Ele or maybe they don't really know how to balance it. At this point just rework it altogether. 

Edited by Aedil.1296
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I think I am going to install another game just to play a mage, because Anet is not willing to allow me to play what I want to play, despite the large amount of money I paid as an entry to the game. At this point it's clear to me they don't care.

Edited by Touchme.1097
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Beeing forced into rotations is what kills the elementalist.  It should be that an elementalist follow the flow of the battle and act accordingly to the situation to counter the enemies. That's what is fun and makes the elementalist strong. Not just piano rotations without thinking even. Unluckily ele is too weak to camp in 1 element, even if it will be fitting perfectly to the situation.

I think Tempest is a nice idea to make things a bit less piano, but still difficult to switch back to the previous element...

 

In my opinion the best I played with ele, that is not button smashing is the conjured hammer weaver. I just camp lighting hammer all the time and then get some buffs from switching the elements, but still keep the same skills. Unluckily conjured weapon are so horrible designed to use them permanently. I often have to wait 30 sec just untill I  an attack 1 single monster, because I want use hammer and not my other skills.

 

If the conjured weapon would work like kits, then the new ele spec would be extremly cool to play this way. 

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I thought about this a lot and I think there is a world where both could exist. 

Weaver could be changed so the 8s buffs last 12s to 16s. Also, some dmg could be reshuffled from skills that are hard to reach to easier ones. Also make the autoattackchain more forgiving, on condi the first two fire swings do no dmg, the last everything. I agree the last one must be the strongest, but not by 10 times, 20% more would be enough. This way the best player would do the same dmg as now, but the more chill ones would have some easiery non piano playstyle. This is only a example, but stuff like this can easily reduce the skill floor without nerfing or buffing the benchmarks. 

Piano could do you 10-20% more dmg than non piano. It would then not be near mandatory to reach accepteable levels. 

And then ofc other classes that provide too much support while doing the same dmg must be tuned down. 

Edited by Zunki.3916
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Whilst  I do see your pain I also think it is really cool that some classes are more challenging than others. Of course it can get frustrating at times when you see necros or rangers face rolling but I wouldn’t want to be in their position as it’s lame.

That being said I believe Ele should have staff buffed for the same reasons why Mesmer received staff buffs (let’s forget the subsequent nerfs for a second). An easy, accessible ranged option is what Ele deserves.

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41 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

Whilst  I do see your pain I also think it is really cool that some classes are more challenging than others. Of course it can get frustrating at times when you see necros or rangers face rolling but I wouldn’t want to be in their position as it’s lame.

That being said I believe Ele should have staff buffed for the same reasons why Mesmer received staff buffs (let’s forget the subsequent nerfs for a second). An easy, accessible ranged option is what Ele deserves.

The problem with the "class x is just harder to play" is it leaves the "i play this for style and theme" players out of the table. And that is in a game that is all about estetics. I do not like to play necro, i just dont like the death theme. I like mages, elemental ones. 

That being said, I dont have problems doing all the content with it. I cannot reach 38k benchmarks on golem, but I can easily do >30k so Im fine for every pug. But I still think it would be better to flatten it out a bit while bringing overperforming speccs/classes a bit down. 

There are perfectly viable builds on ele that do >30k with a simpler rotation, huge healthpool and a lot of ranged dps. If you are happy with 27k dps you can even go single element and just roll it. I still think the simpler rota (still harder than many other speccs) should be more at 35k and the easy one on 30k. 

Edit: and to say something on the good side: I am impressed how well different weapons perform if you put some time into crafting a build around it. While I advocate to flatten it out I think the balancing between weapons and speccs for ele has never been better that now. 

Edited by Zunki.3916
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Not gonna disagree that Ele needs buffs but come on now. This is how the class has been for years, how come on release you were fine with it but now not anymore? Core still exists and so does tempest.

I can do it, you can do it too. It's all about practice. If you spent as much time trying to learn something instead of writing walls of text you'd be a master weaver by now! Yes, other classes can get by with WAY LESS effort, but if we liked that then we'd be playing those instead.

 

 

 

 

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I could agree about the piano thing, even if I really like weaver exactly because it is more challenging, more frantic and returning to tempest with long cast overload in rotation, long CD on affinity is so frustrating.

 

But I wanted to make distinction, in PVE, between a sustained rotation like weaver and an exacting rotation with really precise skill order. Plus between the rotation to do dps, and the fact to die everytime because of low sustain.

 

Weaver's rotation, in PVE, isn't hard. Sure when you read the written rotation it's a bit scaring, but when you resume it in practice, I honestly don't think this is that hard to learn. More or less you swap between two affinities and spam skill cd off without any order. You only need to loop Weaver's prowess and the other one, may be fresh air with more practice; it is easy to do with alacrity.

Hybrid, F1>F1>F3>F3; or condi, F1>F1>F4>F4, and that's all. Obviously, mostly with dagger or under weaveself you want to use other affinities, but that is something your learn through time and somewhere negligible if you're not confident with.

With tempest, you don't even have to swap attunement; you can totally play a condi/hybrid burning tempest, stay 24/7 on Fire affinity and do okai DPS.

 

About the sustain, is is an other story, but not related to the "complexity" of the rotation; it's just you have no sustain with a DPS build and you reliant to boon and heal supports. Don't make the confusion, Yes it is hard to stay alive with weaver/elem; no it doesn't mean the rotation is hard.

PvP and WvW ... an other story too.

 

I also understand that playing with a huge APM can be hard for some players with disabilities, cheap keyboard, want to chill adter work, etc but somewhere ... you don't play the right game, or the right class. Not everything has to be lowered to your threshold.

Edited by Zhaid Zhem.6508
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As a PvP/WvW player, I've become used to the frantic nature of Elementalist. I enjoy the constant swapping and Weaver has really made it so anytime I swing onto Tempest or Core I feel like I'm playing the game on Easy Mode.

That said, I do think that there is something to be said about the risk/reward ratio of Elementalist. I don't raid or play high end fractals seriously, but I have seen some of the rotations required by Elementalist to just be viable and it can be a little overwhelming. On the flip side, I also remember a day when the optional PvE rotation was basically Fire Auto-Attack, Lava Font on cool down, occasional Frost Bow/FGS. When your rotation involves less then 5% of all the skills on your class, then there is also something wrong.

The game has changed, things will not go back to how they were at launch. But I hope ANet can find a better middle ground for Elementalist than it is right now between those who can and those who struggle.

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22 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

As a PvP/WvW player, I've become used to the frantic nature of Elementalist. I enjoy the constant swapping and Weaver has really made it so anytime I swing onto Tempest or Core I feel like I'm playing the game on Easy Mode.

That said, I do think that there is something to be said about the risk/reward ratio of Elementalist. I don't raid or play high end fractals seriously, but I have seen some of the rotations required by Elementalist to just be viable and it can be a little overwhelming. On the flip side, I also remember a day when the optional PvE rotation was basically Fire Auto-Attack, Lava Font on cool down, occasional Frost Bow/FGS. When your rotation involves less then 5% of all the skills on your class, then there is also something wrong.

The game has changed, things will not go back to how they were at launch. But I hope ANet can find a better middle ground for Elementalist than it is right now between those who can and those who struggle.

 

I think most of the people and myself like the piano-like playstyle, but it's not rewarding. I and many others aren't shy of putting work into our class and I as well as most others in those kind of threads love elementalist. But the rewards for this kind of high-effort gameplay are too low whereas other classes with less effort see the same results or even better ones. I don't care if elementalist is harder to play than say scourge or firebrand, but give me at least a reward for learning rotations, for being squishy, for having no utilities and give me something for all the time I "wasted" trying to understand this lovely class to a deeper meaning, right now it's high effort - mediocre reward compared to other classes' low/mediocre effort - mediocre/high reward balancing approach. 

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4 hours ago, Zunki.3916 said:

The problem with the "class x is just harder to play" is it leaves the "i play this for style and theme" players out of the table.

Well, that's not really true because especs are allowing variations in play that likely accomodate the 'style and theme' players. Also, there is no correlation between difficulty to play and class style and theme. Those parameters simply have no relationship to each other.  

Specifically for Ele, Tempest is as close to a 'simple' ele playstyle as it can get ... so if that's not simple enough for the OP, he's got some decisions to make about playing the class overall because Anet isn't going to bake up a whole espec or completely rework the class just because some people don't like the choices they have on it. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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On 9/21/2021 at 3:41 PM, Razor.6392 said:

Not gonna disagree that Ele needs buffs but come on now. This is how the class has been for years, how come on release you were fine with it but now not anymore? Core still exists and so does tempest.

I can do it, you can do it too. It's all about practice. If you spent as much time trying to learn something instead of writing walls of text you'd be a master weaver by now! Yes, other classes can get by with WAY LESS effort, but if we liked that then we'd be playing those instead.

 

 

 

 

My dear the game changed a LOT in 9 years. With core Ele we were doing dungeons and normal pve. Not raids or fractals CMs. You can't compare cursed shores mobs with dragonfall for example. 

 

Try it. 

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Tried a zerk Catalyst, zero defence whatsoever. 

To make a comparison with scrapper, his hammer 3 gives 3 secs of block + 5k barrier every 10 seconds (also an extra dodge on skill 4 hammer by the way) 

With catalyst to have 3k barrier i have to:

1- build energy

2- put down the earth field with the sphere

3- stay inside the sphere field to activate a long cooldown utility

 

...and all this just to get 3k barrier. 

 

This is so emblematic. 

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On 9/22/2021 at 1:28 AM, Razor.6392 said:

Preach. This whole "screw everyone who is having fun, I WANT to have fun" mentality is often overlooked and not seen as extremely vile and disrespecful, because that's all it is.

This could easily be reversed: "Screw everyone who isn't having fun, because I am!" Which is just as bad.

 

The answer here, though, is probably OPTIONS. Weaver is good as a piano-based spec and that shouldn't be changed - but it's also reasonable for people to ask for some elite specialisations that aren't piano-based as more get added. 

 

Tempest is an interesting case in that regard. It qualifies, since Tempest rewards staying in one attunement for a longer period. But it's heavily based on overloads, which aren't to everyone's tastes. 

 

Where does Catalyst sit in this respect? I'm honestly not sure. Hammer seems overall less reliant on attunement switching than other elementalist weapons, apart from building up skill 3 (which is cute but I'm not sure it's really that much better than using them individually), but I haven't really played around with it enough to say for sure.

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33 minutes ago, volca.7234 said:

gw1 style fire ele exist in gw2, its called condi firebrand, your welcome ❤️

Air: Ranged mesmer. Virtuoso might be even better, since it removes the clones.

 

Water: Chill oriented necromancer. 

 

Earth: This is a harder one. Primary distinction of earth in GW1 was wards and area CCs. Possibly something with wells or similar functionality such as guardian consecrations. Visibly... probably hammer rev with Jalis? Other side of the equation doesn't really matter - some are closer than others, but you can see earth magic similarities in basically everything rev if you squint hard enough.

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You're not forced to play piano on ele. You can play very basic rotations, sometime without even switching attunments and be relatively successful (You can reach close to 30k dps on golem by staying in fire if you want). You'll just not use your ressources as effectively as you could if you do that.

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8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Tempest is an interesting case in that regard. It qualifies, since Tempest rewards staying in one attunement for a longer period. But it's heavily based on overloads, which aren't to everyone's tastes. 

 

I would argue you get the most out of Tempest by switching attunements.  With Scepter/warhorn, you can easily stack might in fire, spread 25 might to everyone, then switch to earth to freseh that 25 might stack, maybe Earth two for armor, then switch into Air for damage, or water for healing. 

 

Even core ele rewards you for switching attunements often in a fight.  Ele is combo class, and it has always been, IMO, the hardest class to play in the game. 

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11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

This could easily be reversed: "Screw everyone who isn't having fun, because I am!" Which is just as bad.

 

The answer here, though, is probably OPTIONS. Weaver is good as a piano-based spec and that shouldn't be changed - but it's also reasonable for people to ask for some elite specialisations that aren't piano-based as more get added.

The people who aren't having fun can play other classes. No need to come change already existing stuff as the post suggest ("I truly believe ele needs a massive tweak to being it in line with other classes").

Now, I'm not against easy mode new specs but Tempest already exists so... a bit confused there.

 

12 hours ago, Aedil.1296 said:

My dear the game changed a LOT in 9 years. With core Ele we were doing dungeons and normal pve. Not raids or fractals CMs. You can't compare cursed shores mobs with dragonfall for example. 

 

Try it. 

What does that have to do with Weaver requiring 'piano' mechanics? To some, even core ele is too difficult because you get 2x more abilities than regular classes, so to some extent you could keep up back then but refused to improve later on.

It's not rocket science, and I don't believe pve stuff requires more proficiency than surviving in pvp.

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3 hours ago, ClickToKill.8473 said:

I would argue you get the most out of Tempest by switching attunements.  With Scepter/warhorn, you can easily stack might in fire, spread 25 might to everyone, then switch to earth to freseh that 25 might stack, maybe Earth two for armor, then switch into Air for damage, or water for healing. 

 

Even core ele rewards you for switching attunements often in a fight.  Ele is combo class, and it has always been, IMO, the hardest class to play in the game. 

Yeah, it encourages switching, but it encourages switching every ten seconds or so, and for about five of those seconds you're overloading and therefore the only buttons you're likely to be pressing are movement or instant activation skills. So not really a piano style. However, it pretty much only caters to "stand in the middle of a group and PBAOE everything around you" styles of play. Which is certainly fun, don't get me wrong, but in the long term I'd like to see elementalist having more options than piano or PBAOE specialist.

 

I think avoiding the piano style is probably something that needs to come from the weapons. The current weapons are all designed to cycle through multiple elements, while what could be more fitting is for a weapon to really give each element a strictly defined role, so you use that element when you need that thing and then change attunements when you need something else.

 

For instance, we kind of just missed out on it with catalyst hammer, since it's basically got two elements that are ranged damage, and two that give up range for sustain, and of course the skill 3's reward cycling through almost as much as the weaver elite does. What I'd like to see is a similar approach, but trade, say, fire for water. So air becomes an element for when you want to deal damage at range, water allows you to sustain from range but has the lowest damage, earth becomes a close combat option with similar damage output to air but better defences for when you're in melee, while fire gives you the best DPS but requires you to be in melee and offers few if any defensive options. So you'd choose elements not as part of a cycled rotation, but out of a matter of deciding what it is you need at that moment.

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