Catalyst Feedback Thread

[scerevisiae.1972]

Spent 4hr in WVW zerging with hammer yesterday, even in full marauder gear, the damage was pathetic, I couldn't get higher than ~65% of the numbers achieved by "regular" DPS classes, despite high APM and good skill usage and damage-oritented build.

Lack of range in general is a HUGE limitation but the AOE skills are all also only 180 radius. Compare this to revenant hammer #3 Phase Smash -- 1200 range and 240 AOE, hits like a truck AND chills AND blast finisher AND evade all damage.

Fire #2 doesn't do any damage even when targets are right in front of you. Just whiffs.

The hammer #3 skills are garbage. Do no damage, weak effect, even instant cast they are not worth the action cost of casting, I gave up trying to bother.

Fire #4 skill damage feels really low considering its CD.

Water and Earth REALLY NEED ranged attacks too. Many times I was forced into these attunements to drop fields and then had to just stand there.

All the #5 skills feel like they want to be 600 range - they are so slow to cast and frequently miss because of this.

Conclusion: hammer is absolute trash. Needs ranged buffs, damage buffs, more mobility or evades, skill reworks across the board.

If I don't play hammer then it feels like playing core ele all over again, which after 9yr, sucks hard.

I tried really hard to like it, make it work but there's no way around it, catalyst sucks HARD.

Edited December 1, 2021 by scerevisiae.1972

[Roul.3205]

I'm really loving these changes! A few suggestions I have that I think would smoothen the catalyst experience even more:

 

- Make the hammer 3 buff last 7-8 seconds instead of the current 5. This would alleviate the constant feeling of pressure to instantly attune to the next Element in order to connect the orbs.

- Maybe add a 1 second cooldown to Grand Finale whenever you activate one of the orbs, so that you don't accidently insta-activate it

- It would be awesome if your energy would instantly refill after gging or when entering an instance! Otherwise, some bosses start with 0 energy and some with 100 (depending on wether there were mobs to attack before the encounter or not), which makes rotations a bit awkward.

[scerevisiae.1972]

2 hours ago, Roul.3205 said:

- It would be awesome if your energy would instantly refill after gging or when entering an instance! Otherwise, some bosses start with 0 energy and some with 100 (depending on wether there were mobs to attack before the encounter or not), which makes rotations a bit awkward.

or better yet, just remove thie energy mechanic completely.  serves no useful purpose. so what if you can drop a field at the start of a fight honestly.  I think it's kinda ridiculous that you have to farm energy on neutral mobs before going out to fight in wvw. in the case of necro in PVP it's more of a balance issue but for catalyst, it's just a field, so what if you can drop the field at the beginning of the fight.

[DarkLancer.1902]

(beta 4 feedback)

Well, it's playable.  Average damage, severely underwhelming sustain (I suppose it's an elementalist), crap recovery, low mobility... really not a lot to recommend this.  The focus in the traits and skills is clearly on damage, but it doesn't really have anything to show for it.  Damage winds up being pretty lackluster, and nothing else pops out as extraordinary.  With gear focused on strike damage, I guess it might become a beast, but it would be a glass cannon, unplayable outside of raids, strikes and dungeons. 

Overall kind of feels like the dev team tried to force an elementalist into a revenant costume, but without the revenant's heavy armor, it doesn't really work. 

[Ace.1784]

4 hours ago, Roul.3205 said:

I'm really loving these changes! A few suggestions I have that I think would smoothen the catalyst experience even more:

 

- Make the hammer 3 buff last 7-8 seconds instead of the current 5. This would alleviate the constant feeling of pressure to instantly attune to the next Element in order to connect the orbs.

- Maybe add a 1 second cooldown to Grand Finale whenever you activate one of the orbs, so that you don't accidently insta-activate it

- It would be awesome if your energy would instantly refill after gging or when entering an instance! Otherwise, some bosses start with 0 energy and some with 100 (depending on wether there were mobs to attack before the encounter or not), which makes rotations a bit awkward.

Nice benchmark video!

And 100% agree on points 2 and 3.

[Avatara.1042]

7 hours ago, Roul.3205 said:

I'm really loving these changes! A few suggestions I have that I think would smoothen the catalyst experience even more:

 

- Make the hammer 3 buff last 7-8 seconds instead of the current 5. This would alleviate the constant feeling of pressure to instantly attune to the next Element in order to connect the orbs.

- Maybe add a 1 second cooldown to Grand Finale whenever you activate one of the orbs, so that you don't accidently insta-activate it

- It would be awesome if your energy would instantly refill after gging or when entering an instance! Otherwise, some bosses start with 0 energy and some with 100 (depending on wether there were mobs to attack before the encounter or not), which makes rotations a bit awkward.

Well, it kills giant stationary targets.  Guess Anet will call it a success...

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

12 minutes ago, Avatara.1042 said:

Well, it kills giant stationary targets.  Guess Anet will call it a success...

Don't worry, it'll be nerfed because it deals GoOd DaMaGe on PvE stationary targets that don't fight back. :')

[SkinnyT.5382]

I guess there were improvements.

Jade Sphere skill definitely felt better to use, and hammer 3 is a little better.

However having to quickly swap between my attuments to get the full benefit of a skill just seems silly to me. Which ties to the second problem that I have with the hammer (which I mentioned after the initial beta as well) which is that the hammer should have all skills be the same distance. If I'm fighting mid range it makes no sense to change to a close range attunement just so I can charge up a weapon skill.

And this is the hill I'm dying on.

[fadico.9613]

The hammer skills are so boring and doesnt deal enough damage and very slow you either increase damage or make it faster and the utility skills are not that good and i cant find any use for them overall the catalyst needs alot of work and changes probably the most class that do.

[Jokuc.3478]

@TrollingDemigod.3041 idk how people here can even claim that the updated Catalyst is bad, it benches about 57k (for example roul has a 55k bench vid up on yt) and has a steady 30k dps when playing solo, and you provide permanent quickness even with 0 boon duration, plus it has much better survivability after the new changes. I am going to assume the majority of people here complaining are just really bad at the game.

Edit: Unless you talk about PvP, I can't comment on that yet.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Jokuc.3478

[Fomivee.3065]

I appreciate the changes, I really do but this spec is still trash in fundamental ways. There's no clear identity here - what does this spec want to do? Support? Tempest is way better at that. Damage? Weaver outshines it. There's absolutely no reason to pick this spec, not even flavor which I fail to see too. Catalyst just needs a serious rework.

 

To be more productive than simply complaining, here's my proposed concept for this spec:

 

Augments replaced by Wards. Wards focus on debuffing enemies.

Hammer stays (but it really needs more buffs and it should work better with core traits - earth has pathetitc bleeding application for example. #3 is still bad etc.)

Jade Spheres stay but work differently - you deploy them and then you and allies "build them up" (empowerment → reinforcement) - you need to get 10 stacks (or less depending on traits) of reinforcement to detonate the sphere. Each sphere has unique condition for gaining reinforcement, you can have only 1 active at the time. Cooldown starts once the sphere is detonated. You don't have specific duration to stack them but they disappear when you swap attunements.

 

Utility skills:

 

Healing: Tidal Ward: Heal yourself and place a ward around target ally or yourself healing allies around the target. Enemy attacks within the ward's radius apply short regeneration, cure condition and grant a small amount of barrier to allies damaged by them.

Ward's duration: 3 seconds [numbers are subject to change of course] (all)

Ward's radius: 450 (all)

Conditions removed: 1

Regeneration duration: 3 seconds

Allies affected: 5 (all)

Enemies affected: 5 (all)

Cooldown: 25 seconds

Range: 1200 (all excluding #2)

 

#1: Searing Ward: Place a ward around target enemy. Ward applies burning every 0.5sec to foes standing within the area and make them receive 50% less healing. Briefly daze foes the first time they health drops below 40%.

 

#2: Thunder Ward: Place a ward around yourself. Redirect 10%? of ALL damage done by foes within the area back to them. When the wards expires, knockback and slow foes around you.

 

#3: Stone Ward: Place a ward at chosen location. Foes within its radius deal 15%? less damage with strikes. Allies standing in this ward have resistance, resolution and stability.

 

#4: Prismatic Ward: Place a ward around your Jade Sphere, gaining different effect based on its element.

Fire: Flame Dome: Foes within its radius are blinded and weakened.

Water: Ice Dome: Chill foes and extend condition duration on foes inside.

Air: Whirlwind Dome: Reflect projectiles

Earth: Boulder Dome: Foes can't enter

 

Elite: Celestial Ward: Place a ward around target enemy or yourself. It deals heavy damage every second. Reset the duration when you swap attunements.

 

Wards used on mobile targets will move with them. If target dies, the ward stays in the place of death for the remaining duration.

 

Now onto spheres (same range and radius as wards?):

 

Fire: Combo field: Fire. Gain 1 stack of reinforcement per ~3? conditions applied to foes within sphere's radius by you and your allies. At 10 stacks you can detonate the sphere to apply burning, confusion, torment and fear to foes and extend the duration of damaging conditions on them . [Detonation counts as Blast finisher but can't combo with itself.]

 

Water: Combo Field: Water. Gain 1 stack of reinforcement whenever you or ally receive healing while in sphere's radius.. At 10 stacks you can detonate the sphere to deal damage to foes equal to amount of healing used to gain reinforcement stacks and make them float for X seconds.

 

Air: Combo Field: Lightning. Gain 1 stack of reinforcement whenever you or ally deals critical damage to foes standing in sphere's area. At 10 stacks you can detonate the sphere to increase critical chance and critical damage against foes affected for a medium duration and make every 10th attack against them grant alacrity and quickness.

 

Earth: Combo Field: Smoke?. Gain 1 stack of reinforcement whenever you or ally within 600 radius from you perfoms a combo. At 10 stacks you can detonate the sphere to pull all foes towards detonation's center then make them immobile for a long time while also applying 15x bleeding that can't be removed as long as they remain immobile.

 

 

Traits:

 

I Gain access to Hammer, Ward utility skills and Jade Spheres.

 

1) Jade Sphere casts a spell upon deployment based on your attunement.

 

2) Jade Sphere comes with 2 stacks of reinforcement.

 

3) You can detonate Jade Sphere at 5 stacks for reduced effect.

 

 

II Detonating Jade Sphere gives you boons based on your attunement.

 

1) Standing still for 3 seconds grants you a boost to all your stats for 5 seconds.

 

2) Wards affect 10 targets instead of 5. They gain additional effects:

Tidal Ward: Foes attacking transfer 1 boon to the damaged allies.

Searing Ward: Deals damage every 1 second, increasing with every pulse.

Thunder Ward: Grants 6 seconds of superspeed to you and 3 seconds to allies when cast.

Prismatic Ward: Also gains an effect of previously used Prismatic Ward.

Celestial Ward: Its damage increases by 1% every time it damages an enemy, stacking up to 40%.

 

3) You and up to other 9 allies gain barrier every 4 seconds based on number of allies affected.

 

 

III Gaining reinforcement stack gives you a barrier.

 

1) Your attacks against foes within 450 range apply 1 vulnerability and 1 stack of exposition*

* Chance to get critically damaged increased by 1%, stacks up to 10? times. (counts as condition and can be removed)

 

2) Your attacks against foes within 450-900 range mark them making your and all allies attacks steal some health from them.

 

3) Your weapon skills against foes within 900-1500 range recharge 10% faster. Every 15 seconds your next attack applies condition based on your attunement (fear/chill/blidness/immobilize)

 

 

This is potentially broken but it's not the point. The point is that there is so much more you can do with Catalyst. I know there's little time to release. I know you're working hard with what you have. But I also believe you want your hard work to be appreciated by us, players, and Catalyst is far from achieving that.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Fomivee.3065

[Speedrush.7423]

It kinda works in pvp with a fire weaver but catalyst build. In dagger-focus jail ofc because hammer is a meme.

 

Seems to fit better into teamfights because quickness is huge. For survivability I can chain Fortifed Earth and then double Obsidian. Or simply blasting my waterfield but once again not effective without dagger-x. Elemental Epitome, Staunch Auras and Elemental Celerity are my favourite. The spheres are actually useful but please get rid of energy and cast-denial after swap.

 

But. The playstyle ist not refreshing because the same traitlines of fire weaver have so much synergy, that they are a no-brainer to pick - unless you are some fresh air god. LR is straight up worse than weaver because you lose dual attacks. Also stacking of Elemental Empowerment is unsatisfying because you won't reach all stacks without paying for 3(!) traits. Fix this by adding actually interesting traits instead. Maybe unblockable or immobilize when you hit an enemy with your sphere, idk - something impactful.

 

Also I am unwilling to learn an absurd piano rotation nobody can memorize for raids after power weaver had an extremely logical infinite loop. Weaver offers nothing to the squad therefor it would be fair if it beats catalyst in dps, else it will be burried by eod.

[Tarragon.4302]

Hammer really needs to be reworked or something. It feels like hammer is just a bunch of left over skills thrown onto the weapon with no thoughtful interactions outside of air 2 and air 5, yet even then it feels so bad to play. 

The orb mechanic needs to be removed or moved to one attunement. Like you could keep it on earth or water and have the ranged skill on fire or air. It doesnt last long enough to warrant trying to use when your only source of damage is the air 2 and 5 combo and its a 3 second cast time. 

Instead you could make the melee option useful by building up some sort of stacks by using the orb which then can be used on air or fire, actually giving you an incentive to be in melee. right now using earth and water feel extremely bad since their dps is abysmal and clunky. Either commit to the melee portions being defensive or commit to them being offensive, not this awkward mix of the two that dont do anything. 

The ranged skills need to actually be ranged. 600 is not ranged. I just dont know why you would use hammer over dagger or scepter. Both flow much better and have better dps. Dagger even gets in the same ballpark of ranged skills that hammer has except its far more mobile with potent aoe's. The smallest range on dagger is 180 and thats for ring of earths initial aoe which hits twice, having the second hit be 240. Hammers shortest skills are 130, which belongs to the orb mechanic and melee auto attacks. Why would you have a skill thats a 130 range on attunements that are meant to be "ranged"? all it does is force you to stay in melee distance as the squishiest class in the game. Daggers longest ranged skill is 1200, hammer almost makes that with the disengage skill sending you back 600 units and usable at 600, but you still have to be in that 600 threshold.

At the very least make them 900, even though they realistically should be 1200. Change fire 5 to ranged and not melee, it makes no sense at all that theres a melee skill for the attunement when everything else is ranged, aside from the kitten orb mechanic. You could instead have that be used for earth or water, oh wait, thats just earth 5, why is there the same exact skill on 2 attunements, its just so frustrating the more i break down this class. Air shouldn't have these slow moving skills, its lightning for god sake, its meant to be burst damage. Move air 4 to water or earth instead and change the skill to a lower cd line based damage skill in the same nature as coalescence of ruin or temporal rift. 

Please Anet, stop trying to make a melee class for ele, stop trying to make a tank class for ele, stop trying to make a catch all cele class for ele. We already have that in the form of the other specs and core profession. We need a ranged dps spec. We've needed one for a long time. Staff has been nerfed so many times to the point where you rely on an RNG mechanic with meteor shower to do any damage. I want to play this game, I want to support this game, but EoD so far has been extremely underwhelming and is going in such a bad direction after Heart of thorns and Path of fire were so well done. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, Jokuc.3478 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041 idk how people here can even claim that the updated Catalyst is bad, it benches about 57k (for example roul has a 55k bench vid up on yt) and has a steady 30k dps when playing solo, and you provide permanent quickness even with 0 boon duration, plus it has much better survivability after the new changes. I am going to assume the majority of people here complaining are just really bad at the game.

Edit: Unless you talk about PvP, I can't comment on that yet.

I comment from only PvP and WvW perspective, since PvE is a pure joke that can be botted/macroed through. It could even do 300kk DPS in PvE, it really doesn't matter if tools in the kit scream "free bag to anything with 900+ range weapon" in PvP and WvW.
Catalyst could've been made strictly for PvP/WvW and A-net could just slap 40% dps increase in PvE and it still could be good there, but problem starts when it was made for PvE in the first place, because doesn't matter what they do with % here and there, it won't change a fact that the skills/traits/weapon/sphere are completely worthless in competetive environements.
People stating that you can use other weapons to make it usable are kinda a bit weird, since if I'm gonna play that spec I'd like to actually use it's kit to full potential, otherwise why they're even creating new e-speces if the only way to "enjoy" them is by using core skills and weapons?

[HotDelirium.7984]

SO I have to just make sure:

-I line up the Jade sphere at the right time/place per ever changing combat situations...

-Within 5 seconds use my correct augments per jade sphere... 

-Use weapons skills in a particular order that might combo and grant me an aura...

-Receive a celestial boon as long as I stay in combat long enough to get the payoff?

That's my official feedback.

Edited December 2, 2021 by HotDelirium.7984

[Tarragon.4302]

2 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I comment from only PvP and WvW perspective, since PvE is a pure joke that can be botted/macroed through. It could even do 300kk DPS in PvE, it really doesn't matter if tools in the kit scream "free bag to anything with 900+ range weapon" in PvP and WvW.
Catalyst could've been made strictly for PvP/WvW and A-net could just slap 40% dps increase in PvE and it still could be good there, but problem starts when it was made for PvE in the first place, because doesn't matter what they do with % here and there, it won't change a fact that the skills/traits/weapon/sphere are completely worthless in competetive environements.
People stating that you can use other weapons to make it usable are kinda a bit weird, since if I'm gonna play that spec I'd like to actually use it's kit to full potential, otherwise why they're even creating new e-speces if the only way to "enjoy" them is by using core skills and weapons?

I dont even think this was made for PvE in the first place, if it was it should be fun to play and use when in reality its a complete and utter chore while managing to be boring, only PvE intended aspect is the boon fields. This 100% feels like the class is just left over skills slapped on to a weapon

[The Great Al.2546]

This is not a made for PvE spec, what PvE content needs bruisers?

[ClickToKill.8473]

Regarding the energy meter.

 

I don't mind the energy mechanic on the F5, but it would be a nice QoL change to have numbers shown, like how Death Shroud tells you exactly how much charge you have.

[Ace.1784]

1 hour ago, Fomivee.3065 said:

Damage? Weaver outshines it.

 

1 hour ago, Speedrush.7423 said:

Weaver offers nothing to the squad therefor it would be fair if it beats catalyst in dps, else it will be burried by eod.

The thing is, Power Catalyst outdamages Power Weaver by a mile, even without squad buffs.

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I comment from only PvP and WvW perspective, since PvE is a pure joke that can be botted/macroed through. It could even do 300kk DPS in PvE, it really doesn't matter if tools in the kit scream "free bag to anything with 900+ range weapon" in PvP and WvW.
Catalyst could've been made strictly for PvP/WvW and A-net could just slap 40% dps increase in PvE and it still could be good there, but problem starts when it was made for PvE in the first place, because doesn't matter what they do with % here and there, it won't change a fact that the skills/traits/weapon/sphere are completely worthless in competetive environements.
People stating that you can use other weapons to make it usable are kinda a bit weird, since if I'm gonna play that spec I'd like to actually use it's kit to full potential, otherwise why they're even creating new e-speces if the only way to "enjoy" them is by using core skills and weapons?

CMC has mentioned that specs are not designed with a specific gamemode in mind. Sometimes a design makes sense in a particular game mode and ideally, an elite spec should be viable in all game modes; however, the player should be able to take the spec and see how it works in their specific game mode. In other words, they leave it to the player base to figure out what combinations work.

There's an earlier timestamp on looking at what is not being played and figuring out why it's not played and how to address it. 

This is to say, see what combinations work. I ran staff catalyst in WvW and had a good time. There was a dagger/focus catalyst build someone linked here for sPvP that I really enjoyed and another staff one that I'm interested in trying. 

I feel like a lot of people are upset that the spec is not longbow/rifle and are letting that prevent them from engaging with what we were given. This is not to say there are no valid concerns with Catalyst and I am not saying that it is perfect, but it is far from being unplayable and unusable.

From 2h 45m 03s - 2h 46m 43s.

Direct Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxk55VvGTkc&t=792s&ab_channel=MightyTeapot&t=2h45m03s

 

[BigEvs.6971]

Please consider doing something new with this class like you did to Specter. At least no one can say you weren't ambitious with that spec. It completely goes against the philosophies this game was built on for nearly a decade now, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

Jade Sphere is better, but it's still very finicky and difficult to get value out of when the fight is mobile. It also, like everything else in the spec, doesn't "Catalyze" anything and outside of PvE is a pretty weak field despite the work needed to upkeep it.

 

I ask that you consider making Jade Sphere a field that sticks to your target. It makes Catalyst a potential shot caller that signals to everyone who your target is. It allows ranged weapons to utilize the field using projectile/blast finishers, and rewards allies for aggressing on targets. Literally the Catalyst to an engagement. 

 

[Bladestrom.6425]

1 hour ago, Vinteros Asteano.1209 said:

 

The thing is, Power Catalyst outdamages Power Weaver by a mile, even without squad buffs.

CMC has mentioned that specs are not designed with a specific gamemode in mind. Sometimes a design makes sense in a particular game mode and ideally, an elite spec should be viable in all game modes; however, the player should be able to take the spec and see how it works in their specific game mode. In other words, they leave it to the player base to figure out what combinations work.

There's an earlier timestamp on looking at what is not being played and figuring out why it's not played and how to address it. 

This is to say, see what combinations work. I ran staff catalyst in WvW and had a good time. There was a dagger/focus catalyst build someone linked here for sPvP that I really enjoyed and another staff one that I'm interested in trying. 

I feel like a lot of people are upset that the spec is not longbow/rifle and are letting that prevent them from engaging with what we were given. This is not to say there are no valid concerns with Catalyst and I am not saying that it is perfect, but it is far from being unplayable and unusable.

From 2h 45m 03s - 2h 46m 43s.

Direct Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxk55VvGTkc&t=792s&ab_channel=MightyTeapot&t=2h45m03s

 

CMCs comments is naïve design, SPVP is totally different from PVE and WVW.  You can get away with weak build or builds with lack of sustain or defensive and offensive balance in WVW and PVE, in fact  you could play with a donkey tied to your back with a rubber mallet in its mouth in everything apart from competitive end game PVE.   In SPVP however weak means unplayable.   This would be ok if the balancing cycles are quick, but in GW2 they are not, so its important spvp is balanced well to start. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Kain Francois.4328]

PLEASE, NERF THE DAMAGE AND BOON DURATION!!!!!
PLEASE, NERF THE DAMAGE AND BOON DURATION!!!!!
PLEASE, NERF THE DAMAGE AND BOON DURATION!!!!!

45k dps on small hitbox with no boon gear for permanent boon output (INCLUDING Quickness) is OP. I don't care what anyone says. Not even Firebrand is able to accomplish this level of ridiculous damage and support at the same time.

For the love of all that is holy, PLEASE NERF THIS!!! I don't care if some people complain because they hate nerfs.

Look, balance people, CMCwater, you know in your heart this cannot go live. It completely outclasses Weaver, and defeats the whole kitten point of Diviner gear and the Concentration stat in general. Simultaneously, it fails to deliver on the intended purpose of the spec, "A Steady Presence on the Battlefield".

Bring it down more in line with Scrapper, please.

Speaking of Scrapper, I'll reiterate my previous feedback:  Catalyst needs less damage output, more passive defense and sustain. I want to play a bulky Juggernaut, a "steady presence on the battlefield". One 10% damage reduction I only gain after pumping out auras does not make me more bulky in a noticeable way.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Kain Francois.4328

[emablackread.7246]

50 minutes ago, Vinteros Asteano.1209 said:

I feel like a lot of people are upset that the spec is not longbow/rifle and are letting that prevent them from engaging with what we were given. This is not to say there are no valid concerns with Catalyst and I am not saying that it is perfect, but it is far from being unplayable and unusable.

With all due respect to you and CMC, I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. He mentioned that the spec mechanic (sphere) was bad to use, and that's why people overreacted and said that the whole spec is bad... but in fact, I think the actual scenario is them dismissing the overwhelmingly negative reception of Catalyst as 'they're just overreacting, it's a good spec apart from a few issues' when in reality Catalyst has fundamental issues from the ground up.

I don't think people said that it's "unusable" just that it's terrible to use and annoying to play. We see the devs "using" Catalyst in the EoD preview videos (mostly camping fire and autoattacking and staying alive with dev cheats but I digress) but that doesn't make it a good spec. Plenty of people have given suggestions on how to improve "what we were given" but we are fundamentally playing 'organize the trash in the trash can' and no matter how much we tidy it up, it will still be a trash can at the end of the day.

And really, you having fun with a 9-year-old core Ele weapon in a WvW zerg isn't exactly a glowing recommendation for the new Elite Spec. Nor are the benchmarks on stationary golems - sure ANet can slap numbers on it but that doesn't make it a good spec. What have they given us exactly? An attunement-juggling melee spec that managed to be both slower than Weaver while having more buttons to press? Was this what the game needed? A hammer-wielding 'bruiser' with a floating tech gadget (Engi says hello)? An Ele spec with boons, auras, and four elemental AoEs (that are way less cool compared to Overloads), is this supposed to be novel and exciting?

Is this the 3rd (and perhaps last) Elite Spec the Elementalist needed? Is this the best they could come up with? The question isn't 'is it usable?' but 'is this really what they're going with'? Of all the fan ideas and speculations and the official team gives Eles the Catalyst (compared to Spectre or Bladesworn for example). What does the Catalyst innovate compared to Scrapper, Weaver, Tempest (or other ESpecs)? Except that it's more annoying to use? Every time I'm trying to combo in an immobile field with an energy cost and a cooldown, I'm reminded that Scrappers can have far more combo fields and some move with you, Revenants can move their tablet around, Scourges get effects around themselves and their shades both, all of which are much better to use. Every time I'm stuck having to chase down enemies to hit with half of my hammer skills, I'm reminded that Revenant Hammer gets a 1200 ranged AoE knockdown. Every time I'm micromanaging energy and Spheres for boon uptime, I'm reminded that Tempest was made for support, and does it much better. Not to mention the Hammer 3 which is a worse iteration of Weave Self in every way, except they slapped loads of your damage onto it. I won't reiterate the thousand cuts that Ele is bleeding from, from the Hammer skills to the traits to the Sphere issues, all were extensively discussed already.

So really, I disagree that people's main issue is that Cata isn't using a longbow/rifle (personally, I think both weapons would have been an ill fit for Ele). The issue is that no matter how we polish it or dress it up, it's fundamentally bad. It's got no identity, contradictory themes, it took mechanics from other specs and made them worse, and it's such a deadend compared to other Especs or compared to what Tempest or Weaver brought compared to what was there before. I'm honestly curious to hear from some devs who actually play all the classes and elite specs and weapons and know the unique mechanics some are capable of, to come and explain why exactly they thought the Catalyst would be the right choice to add to Eles and to the game.

[BigEvs.6971]

5 minutes ago, emablackread.7246 said:

 

ANet can slap numbers on it but that doesn't make it a good spec. What have they given us exactly? An attunement-juggling melee spec that managed to be both slower than Weaver while having more buttons to press? Was this what the game needed? A hammer-wielding 'bruiser' with a floating tech gadget (Engi says hello)? An Ele spec with boons, auras, and four elemental AoEs (that are way less cool compared to Overloads), is this supposed to be novel and exciting?

Is this the 3rd (and perhaps last) Elite Spec the Elementalist needed? Is this the best they could come up with? The question isn't 'is it usable?' but 'is this really what they're going with'? Of all the fan ideas and speculations and the official team gives Eles the Catalyst (compared to Spectre or Bladesworn for example). What does the Catalyst innovate compared to Scrapper, Weaver, Tempest (or other ESpecs)? Except that it's more annoying to use? Every time I'm trying to combo in an immobile field with an energy cost and a cooldown, I'm reminded that Scrappers can have far more combo fields and some move with you, Revenants can move their tablet around, Scourges get effects around themselves and their shades both, all of which are much better to use. Every time I'm stuck having to chase down enemies to hit with half of my hammer skills, I'm reminded that Revenant Hammer gets a 1200 ranged AoE knockdown. Every time I'm micromanaging energy and Spheres for boon uptime, I'm reminded that Tempest was made for support, and does it much better. 

Yeah so I won't pretend my suggestion is perfect, but this is exactly what I kinda hope a Jade Sphere that sticks to your target would alleviate. Hammer would suck but the field is so underwhelming and hard to maintain that the least it could do is reward you and your allies for sticking to your target or firing projectiles at it with finishers. As far as I can remember it hasn't really been done before unless you count Vindicator GS 5, and that's not even really a field. 

 

I also agree that longbow/rifle would've been an ill fit. A "Sticky" field wouldn't fix hammer though. I'll admit idk where to begin with it. This spec just really lacks ambition and I think a field that sticks to a target could help inspire new ideas. 

[Ace.1784]

 

18 minutes ago, emablackread.7246 said:

With all due respect to you and CMC, I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. He mentioned that the spec mechanic (sphere) was bad to use, and that's why people overreacted and said that the whole spec is bad... but in fact, I think the actual scenario is them dismissing the overwhelmingly negative reception of Catalyst as 'they're just overreacting, it's a good spec apart from a few issues' when in reality Catalyst has fundamental issues from the ground up.

I don't think people said that it's "unusable" just that it's terrible to use and annoying to play. We see the devs "using" Catalyst in the EoD preview videos (mostly camping fire and autoattacking and staying alive with dev cheats but I digress) but that doesn't make it a good spec. Plenty of people have given suggestions on how to improve "what we were given" but we are fundamentally playing 'organize the trash in the trash can' and no matter how much we tidy it up, it will still be a trash can at the end of the day.

And really, you having fun with a 9-year-old core Ele weapon in a WvW zerg isn't exactly a glowing recommendation for the new Elite Spec. Nor are the benchmarks on stationary golems - sure ANet can slap numbers on it but that doesn't make it a good spec. What have they given us exactly? An attunement-juggling melee spec that managed to be both slower than Weaver while having more buttons to press? Was this what the game needed? A hammer-wielding 'bruiser' with a floating tech gadget (Engi says hello)? An Ele spec with boons, auras, and four elemental AoEs (that are way less cool compared to Overloads), is this supposed to be novel and exciting?

Is this the 3rd (and perhaps last) Elite Spec the Elementalist needed? Is this the best they could come up with? The question isn't 'is it usable?' but 'is this really what they're going with'? Of all the fan ideas and speculations and the official team gives Eles the Catalyst (compared to Spectre or Bladesworn for example). What does the Catalyst innovate compared to Scrapper, Weaver, Tempest (or other ESpecs)? Except that it's more annoying to use? Every time I'm trying to combo in an immobile field with an energy cost and a cooldown, I'm reminded that Scrappers can have far more combo fields and some move with you, Revenants can move their tablet around, Scourges get effects around themselves and their shades both, all of which are much better to use. Every time I'm stuck having to chase down enemies to hit with half of my hammer skills, I'm reminded that Revenant Hammer gets a 1200 ranged AoE knockdown. Every time I'm micromanaging energy and Spheres for boon uptime, I'm reminded that Tempest was made for support, and does it much better. Not to mention the Hammer 3 which is a worse iteration of Weave Self in every way, except they slapped loads of your damage onto it. I won't reiterate the thousand cuts that Ele is bleeding from, from the Hammer skills to the traits to the Sphere issues, all were extensively discussed already.

So really, I disagree that people's main issue is that Cata isn't using a longbow/rifle (personally, I think both weapons would have been an ill fit for Ele). The issue is that no matter how we polish it or dress it up, it's fundamentally bad. It's got no identity, contradictory themes, it took mechanics from other specs and made them worse, and it's such a deadend compared to other Especs or compared to what Tempest or Weaver brought compared to what was there before. I'm honestly curious to hear from some devs who actually play all the classes and elite specs and weapons and know the unique mechanics some are capable of, to come and explain why exactly they thought the Catalyst would be the right choice to add to Eles and to the game.

There is a lot here, and I don't think it would be helpful for me to respond to individual points. Instead, I'm going to aggregate them and try to respond. If I'm wrong, let me know.

It seems this conversation is about how Catalyst changes Elementalist. There is a bit here about comparing to other classes, but I'm not sure how this is your intention. From the CMC video (and from my understanding from all the elite spec info I received over the years), the goal of elite specs is to change how you play, not necessarily add new mechanics.

For me, Catalyst has an ebb and flow play to how you utilize mechanic, much like a sinusoidal wave. The peaks and troughs of the wave depends on trait and weapon, but of the weapons I've played (hammer, staff, dagger, focus, scepter) and the game modes (raids, sPvP, WvW, and open world), this pattern remains true. In a technical definition, Catalyst increases the rate of a reaction. If you would allow me to be a bit more poetic, the Catalyst traits and mechanic increase the rate of what your build's goal.  Hammer skills reflect this concept well, their multi-hits constantly proc energy gain allowing you to deploy your jade sphere and start your ramp up period. Jade Sphere provides some of the best boons in the game (Might good in everything, Quickness good in everything, Protection good in PvP). 

I've played Elementalist since the first betas in 2012, so I'll run this history lesson here. If you were here with me, then a lot of this will be familiar. Elementalist has always been the class that does "a little bit of everything". The current state of many of the weapons are the result of nerfs to these historical periods (staff ele running rampant in sPvP for Beta 1 and 2, D/D ele at launch). 

Due to this "little bit of everything", Elementalist has always been a high skill ceiling class and has always been a class you needed to swap attunements for to be effective (this is before the days of rotations). Devs constantly mentioned that Elementalist is the versatility class.

I say this to say, I think you're mixing up Elementalist's versatility with the lack of innovation.

If you think about it, Tempest isn't particularly innovative either. Overloads are a visually appealing mechanic, but mostly mimic glyph of storms with some addons. Tempest's shouts are very similar to Reaper's shouts in terms of mechanics, they just generate different effects. This doesn't stop us from enjoying this spec. Tempest is also our low intensity spec, not requiring the rapid attunement swaps of standard Elementalist.

Weaver pushes Elementalist's swapping mechanic further, by adding Thief's dual skills and Warrior stances. Weaver brings damage, evades, and some sustain through barrier, all valuable for PvP content and the reason Weaver is typically present in PvP modes, especially outnumbered fights. The roaming WvW build I run let's be fight 3-4 other people while sustaining, either kill one or two, or get away without dying. 

Core, Tempest, Weaver, and Catalyst all require attunement swapping (to varying degrees), they all have strong condi and power builds (often at the top of the charts), they all provide the common Elementalist boons, they all heavily utilize auras and combos, and they all have fairly complex rotations (varying degrees as well). This is an indication that these are the elements of Elementalist.

Tempest does heal better (because of a trait), Weaver does more damage (because of a trait, but not anymore due to Catalyst) and Catalyst augments (heh) build decisions while providing an absurd amount of boons, but limits your extreme peaks through energy and traits. You can tell this by the benchmark videos and the feedback, "I only feel strong once I reached the pinnacle of the build".