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Catalyst Feedback Thread


Fire Attunement.9835

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16 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

If only dps benchmarks on stationary golems were all that mattered. 

Honestly I think it's a big improvement from the previous beta but the reliance on hammer 3 for dps and how those skills work is its main shortfall at the moment. 

 

That and making some of the traits well, more interesting and practical. 

I don't fully understand the need for maximum Resolution from the water attunement. It seems like something maybe more useful in pvp or wvw but there are still better boons out there. In PVE I don't get bombarded with condi that much and when we do its just so fast it would be smarter to just cleanse it then deal with it through resolution. I don't think we should have gotten rid of retaliation.

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So far, I can't even see what's the idea behind catalyst. 

The hammer as a 3rd melee weapon, with one ranged and one mid range, is already very strange and the least possible original choice. Can't tell if it's good or bad, as I'll never play a melee ele. 

 

Then, for the catalyst itself, you gain a glorified lava font on f5, that doesn't even have a single interaction with the core class. As far as I can remember, this is the only spec that is pretty much just a core update, nothing less and nothing more. 

 

I can't even say if it's good or bad, as I feel like we didn't see the elite spec yet, just a very small core ele update (and not really a good one). 

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7 hours ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

Higher benchmark means higher damage even in hands of a non speed clear player. Plus it effortlessly has perma quickness even without boon duration gear.

Ergo, it is over-tuned; overpowered.

Rotation isn't even that hard.

 

If 50k is what people can do after ... only 3 day....  then this rotation mustn't be that hard. And I am scared of the potential once people have it for long enough to grind higher numbers.

Look, it needs a nerf in raw damage output. Just accept that.

I think the greatest issue is that the orbs can hit multiple times during one orbit when standing inside the hitbox. Addressing that would tone the dmg down significantly already. I really like that specc, but i really dont want raids to be filled with 6+ eles again. since this was funny some time, it was pretty unhealthy for the game. 
Furthermore since that speck has dmg and utility, it would render the weaver useless in pve. That would be sad:(

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I'm trying to like this spec but it is so hard because of everything it has going on. I find the lack of mobility, the boring traits, no fluidity on the hammer (half range/half melee), hammer 3 skill, pretty jade sphere that does nothing but look pretty and gives boring boons and a field to be the worst one out of all the other specs. Out of all the weapons that we still don't have access to you decided to give them a hammer which is slow and the slowness adds to the clunkiness of it being a half and half weapon. I feel like they were trying to appease the range crowd by doing that but in turn it doesn't feel fluid. It should have been all melee or given a ranged weapon. Also, if this was supposed to be a combo field spec, they should have more combo finishers and fields on the hammer.

 

When I think hammer, I think Thor and how his hammer can channel weather like rain, wind, snow, earth and lightning but it doesn't feel like that with these skills. There are so many ways to incorporate weather type skills onto a hammer to make it fun and not clunky. They could have added earthquakes, ice walls, boulders, flame whirls, tsunamis, ice chunks, lightning cage on land, more tornadoes, bubbles of water and lightning dashes. I still want to see a blizzard skill sometime in this game.

 

I hate the traits stat increases, a little boons on sphere, and auras is what they decided to go with. I would rather have traits that effect or manipulate the jade sphere other than boons. 

 

As I mentioned above the jade sphere seems like it was a main feature for this class but it does nothing just stays stationary for a few seconds providing some boons and a field. You have this nice visual that I can't even enjoy because it doesn't last long and doesn't move. I would suggest make it like a ranger pet but temporary (longer duration), in that it has its own animations that follow and move with you providing the benefits it has and giving it an active skill to do something. My other suggestion would be to make them like ranger spirits that could follow you or teleport. Some people may disagree but I would rather prefer this than what we have now. 

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18 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

If only dps benchmarks on stationary golems were all that mattered. 

It's not just on benchmarks. It performs incredibly well in real encounters as well. Go on twitch and watch experienced raiders play it, most of them are doing top dps, or any of the yt videos people linked above. I don't even know what to say at this point lol. Again, it's strong. If it performs poorly for you you're just not playing it well.

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6 hours ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

Okay, here's a non-golem benchmark.

"But the video is a speedrunner!"
They were able to excel with the Catalyst in just 3 days. That probably means it's extremely easy to play.

As I've said in other places in this thread, I completely agree that Catalyst is really strong and people who say otherwise are just wrong. However, I wouldn't say that it's "extremely easy to play". While I manage to do great damage with it I find it pretty difficult to keep up with the rotation, and the player Roul in the examples you linked even says himself on his channel:

Quote

I keep getting comments telling me that the class is too difficult to play – and I agree, it indeed is very hard to get used to the hammer 3 mechanic, which is why I’ll definitely upload a more simplified rotation in addition to the optimal one

..and the fact that so many people complain about it being "bad" despite us seeing it perform very well in the hands of good players just shows that it's good just hard to play. Roul is an experienced Elementalist player, so of course it didn't take him too long time to figure out what to do.

Edited by Jokuc.3478
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6 minutes ago, Jokuc.3478 said:

and the fact that so many people complain about it being "bad" despite us seeing it perform very well in the hands of good players just shows that it's good just hard to play.

High numbers and high dps is nothing more than being convinced of a marketing gimmick, as numbers often do and will change throughout an expansion as beta testing continues and bugs/mechanics are fixed. The people that are assessing the spec as being bad are looking at the heart of its design, function, and overall diversity so that the spec is actually fun and universallly playable outside of any novelty acts or gimmicks that can be gone the next day.

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Disclaimer, still not an Ele main, but I do play it semi-regularly

 

The revised Jade Sphere well mechanic feels way better than the first iteration, although I wish they lasted a little longer. They feel a lot more like the chrono wells now, which isn't a bad thing per se but I'm a little sad about losing the "deploy sphere" angle from the original concept.

On the flip side, I'll take losing that if it means the mechanic is actually usable.

I played around with all the hammer skills this time and I have to say it feels super weird to have a leap back but not a leap forward on a mixed-melee weapon? It makes sense for a ranged weapon, like ranger shortbow 3, but at least like half the hammer skills are melee.

My complaint about the UI charge bar and placement still stands, but it's not as important now due to the change in mechanic so it's fine I guess.

 

Overall though I think the changes are a HUGE improvement from the first iteration. It's tipped over the line from "I can see how this concept could be fun, but..." to "hey I could have fun with this once I get the hang of it".

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Beta 4: Possibly a bug?

1) Idk if its supposed to be this way but you can't gain energy for a while after deploying a sphere. This sucks major kitten and feels like I'm making a mistake and makes gameplay feel choppy. Hopefully this will be changed like mantras - using the last charge felt like a mistake so the charge-cast time got removed completely. If the sphere is supposed to be that way... why? Are we forced to play 3 sphere burst? Is it to balance energy? Essentially, it feels like if warrior couldn't gain adrenaline after using a burst skill.

2) Also, I'm not 100% sure if Jade Sphere needs to share attunement swap ICD.

Personal response: I LOVE every aspect of Cata now!! #spinningsimulator

Edited by Donovan.7914
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I don't really get the complains about hammer being half ranged half melee.. We have to come to terms with the fact that hammer is clearly not a ranged weapon. If you guys like ranged gameplay you evidently won't use hammer. If you play melee, then you won't mind having a few range here and there. That range actually proved great in various encounters to kite around stuff. Who cries about mixed range is actually crying for a full range weapon, which won't happen at this point.

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First of all, I didn't extensively test the spec so I'm just going to provide a first impression on it. 

The good points :

  • Hammer skills are faster and feel much better.

             You are not stuck after casting air #2 in the air attunement which makes it much smoother.

  • F5 and hammer #3 being instant cast makes the spec playable (finally). Also the radius and speed of #3 feels really good.

 

Things that could be looked on :

  • I didn't enjoy playing outside 'Energized Elements' trait. It felt like it took forever to build the energy. This trait makes the energy generation tolerable (but it felt a little bit mandatory which might not be a good thing).

 

  • From my short play session this is what I think i got from the hammer :

            - The main dps source is the orbiting orbs (which is good).
            - Once the jade spheres are charged,  #5 on all attunements provides a combo finisher which definitely comes in handy to take advantage of the fields.

            - While navigating the orbs you also use #2 to accelerate the energy generation EXCEPT in fire attunement where #2 seems  really slow. All other attunements' #2 are some kind of channeling attacks that start hitting without delay (which  is good to buildup the energy).
             - weapon #4s feature the situational tools, but then again EXCEPT in fire attunement where it's an attack as slow as fire #2.

 

 tldr : I feel like fire #2 and #4 should in some way align with what the other elements provide on those slots.

  • It's kinda a pain to find a new key to assign F5. Maybe add the ability to cast F5 by pressing a second time the attunement button
  • The energy gauge is way too tiny

 

 

Overall :

I don't know, I kinda feel like I'm enjoying this spec a little bit now. It requires a little bit getting used to (especially timing the utilities to the jade spheres). 
Gameplay wise it feels like weaver-light but the effects are satisfying, especially when you start running with almost constant quickness (please don't change that). 
I'm cautiously optimistic now, but I'll hold my judgement for after the nerfbat. If it doesn't happen, I like what I'm seeing so far.

I think it's a shame though that most of the features of this spec are reliant on using the hammer. Kinda feels like Deadeye on that aspect.

Edited by Tabootrinket.2631
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6 hours ago, Jokuc.3478 said:

It's not just on benchmarks. It performs incredibly well in real encounters as well. Go on twitch and watch experienced raiders play it, most of them are doing top dps, or any of the yt videos people linked above. I don't even know what to say at this point lol. Again, it's strong. If it performs poorly for you you're just not playing it well.

if you encounter any roamer in wvw with hammer cata, they will just laugh at you, step out of the jade sphere and destroy you.

 

This spec is borderline useless for any content where the target moves even a tiny bit. It is completely useless against anything with a working brain. Raids do not matter. PvP, WvW do. If a spec does well there, it will do decent everywhere. But a spec doing well in Raids means nothing in any other mode. A roaming build can do openworld, story, dungeons, fractals, even some raids with ease. But a spec that is only good against an immobile big hitbox (aka Raid builds) is horrible outside of raids.  Heck, you don't even need to use roaming builds. A lot of wvw guild builds would probably work in any kind of environment. But raid builds are nothing but easy loot bags outside of their niche. 

So yeah, Catalyst is an instant fail, because it ignores 95% of player base and almost all of the content. It is only good for golems and some raids. 

 

Anet, your 'balancing around raids' hurt the game for years. you nerfed ele into the ground in ALL modes, just because of some artificially high golem numbers. Now you release an elite that is useless for everything but raids. Has noone learnt anything in your house? Give us a spec that is viable outside of raids. Thanks.

Edited by VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.
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I think the changes made to catalyst were amazing. I actually had a blast while playing it and I think part of the issue last time, for me personally, was that I just didn't really understand what it was trying to do but I totally get it now. I only have a couple of issues with it still. The biggest one is that every other spec got so much mobility and jumps and gap closers. Catalyst only got one on one singular attunement. Compared to both off hand and main hand dagger and sword, both of which have pretty good movement skills. I get that a hammer is a lot heavier than either of those weapons, and personally I'm not super bothered by it. I just think with at least one more movement skill on another attunement would be great. Also, gaining energy without the Energized Elements trait is SUCH a pain. So some more traits or some other ways to gain energy would most definitely help.

 

Just a quick note, I mostly played in open world with catalyst, so this may not be the most helpful comment, but still.

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I've played with Catalyst quite a bit and yes the spec is better than it was previous beta but it's still not in a good place.

Hammer:

  • Hammer 3 makes catalyst gameplay feel hectic and unfun, you can see how many builds use weave self which is pretty much hammer 3 skill.
    Firstly why rehash sth that weaver has for an elite for a gimmick on a weapon. 
    Secondly we already have to juggle elements due to low amount of long cooldown combo finishers which would generate elemental empowerment, empowered aura and hardened aura buffs to keep those up, now we also need to constantly cycle attunement to keep the orbs up and to get the most out of the augments.
    From my testing which i have to admit was not well done and dps is low i lost more than 33% of my dps if i didn't use skill 3. This feels horrible, weaver had element weaving that was rewarding, this just feels hectic and unfun.
    In all honesty just remove skill 3 and give us sth that is actually usefull, like a field or some gap closers that this weapon needs if you want catalyst to be a bruiser. You do realize that most classes have tons of movement and you gave catalyst on hammer almost none while it has lowest HP and lowest armor...and on top of that the one leap engage that it has is also a heal which it needs to survive not to catch opponents...
  • Hammer damage feels weak outside air and especially in fire....sth needs to be done...here i'm excluding damage from skill 3 because in most cases it won't help...it's melee and if you want to be a bruised while in fire or air at range it'll do 0 damage anyway.
  • Damage output, no i'm not snowcrows but it still shows the difference...30k+ was with hammer 3 and 20k+ was without hammer 3, everything else was the same...i don't like this at all
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/482867360412467200/916623892569784330/unknown.png
  • I really hoped for hammer ele to be this slow moving kitten playstyle where you'd want to make sure you're nowhere near them or you'll take massive damage, like in a way with how you presented reaper but the way it turned out it's not that special...With how combo centric catalyst is it really feels like hammer isn't the right weapon for the spec, i honestly feel a ranged projectile weapon would fit a lot more with shooting through the field to generate combos like longbow, shortbow, pistols....
  • One last thing about hammer 3, i don't like having +7% critical chance as a buff on air if it's so hard to upkeep, as if we don't consider it when making a build we'll overcap with critical chance and if we do and we don't have the buff we won't be at 100% crit chance if the orb isn't up...if you keep it, which i hope you don't at least not in current iteration make it critical damage or sth else.

Jade spheres:

  • Energy can't be generated while a jade sphere is up, this feels extremely unrewarding, since you have to juggle attunements to keep all the buffs up, which leads it having to stay in an element to get enough energy to get a sphere up which then breaks hammer 3 due to its duration which then leads to big damage loss...
    Let us generate energy even when the jade sphere is up
  • Cooldown on the sphere when you enter an attunement is bad, again here one reason being hammer 3 and second reason if let's say quickness is running out and you want to quickly refresh it by jumping into air, well tough luck 1.5s cooldown. This also makes using augments more annoying as you at times have to wait to use them because you have the 1.5s sphere cooldown on attunement swapping, which again you have to do to keep all the buffs and orbs from hammer 3 up.
    Please remove this cooldown
  • Do we really need a 1.5s cooldown on attunement swap, 5s cooldown on placing the sphere and no energy generation while the sphere is down.
  • You need to at least remove the 1.5s cooldown on attunement swap and no energy generation while jade sphere is down.
  • Make the area of the sphere at least 360 radius.

Elite skill:

  • When used with hammer this elite is really not useful, there's so much element juggling going on that you don't really get a good time to use it as you're never in an element long enough for it to be useful
  • It recharging only one element isn't actually good, most times all you get is maybe another use of obsidian flesh or meteor shower and not all the skills as most are on long cooldown anyway, on top of elementalists aren't really meant to camp one element
  • This just leads to us using FGS again which a lot of us don't like due to how clunky it is to use.
  • Change this skill so it recharges all elements or utilities or put hammer 3 onto this elite and give hammer 3 sth else that is actually usefull or make all spheres spawn at once when you use the elite so you can use any augment and get all the buffs or sth.
Edited by skoda.4619
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I really don't like hammer at all.

The mish-mash of melee and short ranged skills doesn't work. I didn't enjoy it all. I'd much rather have a proper  600-1200 ranged weapon.

Few other things like the orb skills don't feel very impactful because the duration of them is way too short and I don't want to be in melee range anyway.

Having fire/air be ranged and earth/water as melee doesn't make any sense to me. I think water/earth attunements should be completely reworked.

Feels really bad to get stuck in water or earth attunement at range and not be able to do anything.

Why is the only gap closer in water attunement? 

Also what is the point of energy?

I don't know, just feels really clunky and badly designed.

 

Edited by brandies.8673
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All in all, a nice improvement over the previous version! Changes made are appreciated.

My main issue right now is that it seems like you need to juggle to be efficient. Too many cooldowns and durations to be aware of. My suggestions would be:

  • Slightly increase the duration of Hammer 3 OR increase it a lot (up to 15 seconds) and remove the duration refresh for each new orb (adjust the damage and/or number of hits as needed). With the second option, you could still achieve all four orbs by quickly swapping attunement for a burst, but it won't make us feel so pressured for completing the rotation.
  • Eliminate the Jade Sphere cooldown on attunement swap so you only need to pay attencion to the attunement cooldown and the available energy when you need an especific field. 
  • Please, improve the energy UI! I don't know if there is energy left for one or two spheres more. The current one made sense in the previous version. Now that it has a fixed cost and a maximum of three charges, a representation with segments or similar to the one used for the initiative would be more suitable. Alternatively, as others have suggested, switch it over to ammo.

These changes are not intended to increase the power of the class, but rather to make it feel less stressful and more enjoyable to play. Balance the dps as needed (perhaps by reducing the number of hits from the orbs). I think this will also could help to reduce the gap between the piano player and the more casual one.

Thanks for the iterations!

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The catalyst is better than last beta but I like many others here really dislike hammer skill 3 and the amount of damage potential it has and able to lose if caught by any CC.  I would like to see it be reworked without the damage orbs and be able to share it's unique buffs with up to 5 or 10 people in your active jade sphere and increase the sphere duration by a couple of seconds when used.  This would give the hammer a unique role and the rest of the skills could then be tweaked in numbers to be more balanced.

As for energy it would be nice if there were ways to get it when a jade sphere is deployed and I'd suggest gaining energy when completing a combo as the spec is all about doing them. I had also thought about if just using combos for energy (maybe 3-4 energy per combo) instead of hitting but then  the hammer doesn't have any fields.  So Hammer 3 could also be an energy recovery skill if a sphere is undeployed to give 10 energy and flip to the above functionaity when a sphere is up.

I would also like to see a trait to increase jade sphere duration by 2 seconds like we have for fire fields, this could come at a cost such as reduced sphere aoe damage if too strong.

Those are my thoughts on the Catalyst for now but I guess the reality will be hammer 3 receiving the reduced damage on multi-hit treatment other elementalist skills were given.

Edited by Syronus.7605
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Been playing catalyst almost exclusively this beta but it just doesn't live up to its namesake.

 

The majority of hammer skills should have had combo finishers to synergize with the jade spheres.

Hammer 2 water is so so, why not just make it create an ice field since its pretty rare and would have made it more valuable with the leap from 4?

I would add a blind for hammer 5 earth maybe for extra value.

Hammer 1 earth could give cripple, add 2-4 stacks of bleed for targets already crippled.

Hammer air 2 could have a slight pull effect as well.

Hammer air 1 could have chain skill and give 1 second superspeed at the end.

A lot of CC I know but I don't see myself taking this weapon otherwise in SPVP.

 

I would change the entire hammer skill 3 from all attunements into transmutes. Regardless of your aura you can transmute it on skill 3 and based on your attunement get either existing effects or something else.

Maybe double the effect of a transmute if you're in a jade sphere field.

I could see a mid trait which increases your damage based on transmutes, plus giving a boon.

 

Some of the traits are good but just boring.

Change Sphere Specialist to also increase the jade sphere fields by 2-3 seconds.

Empowered Empowerment - at max stacks you can also create a jade sphere field around your character.

Staunch Auras is decent but maybe also add a 10-20% cooldown reduction for transmute skills.

The adept and middle skills are kinda bad and would require more consideration.

 

Augmented skills are weak, except for earth (but it's pretty boring).

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11 hours ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

This spec is borderline useless for any content where the target moves even a tiny bit.

This statement is just plain wrong.

11 hours ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

Raids do not matter. PvP, WvW do. If a spec does well there, it will do decent everywhere.

lmao what? Of course PvE content matter. Sure there are some truth to the idea, but don't even try to claim that meta PvP classes like Core Thief, Core Necro and Spellbreaker will ever be good in Fractals and Raids. Not every class has to perform great in every game mode. Some classes are better for PvP/WvW some are better in PvE. That's how it is and that's how it should be.

Edited by Jokuc.3478
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3 hours ago, Jokuc.3478 said:

This statement is just plain wrong.

lmao what? Of course PvE content matter. Sure there are some truth to the idea, but don't even try to claim that meta PvP classes like Core Thief, Core Necro and Spellbreaker will ever be good in Fractals and Raids. Not every class has to perform great in every game mode. Some classes are better for PvP/WvW some are better in PvE. That's how it is and that's how it should be.

i wholeheartedly agree with you. I used this spec in PvE and it completely shines there. The entire PvE community likes to disagree with the statement that Pve doesn't matter xD. And I tried to PvP with the spec. It was a bit clunky but i didn't feel powerless. I think this spec just needs more getting used to it for decent builds to develope. And even though many people don't like the hectic complexity brought with skill 3, but there are also a bunch who enjoy it.

Many specs are stronger in pvp than others and if you find a spec to be weak, maybe the right synergy is simply not found over this short beta.

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Okay, had the time to try Cata in different scenarios and here's my feedback. A necessary introduction: i'm still unhappy of not having a new ranged option. Cata may be a valid concept but I still feel its design is not smooth at all and his class mechanic is a bit drab.

This said, i must admit the fixes have improved a lot the playability on hammer. In open world I've tried the aura stacks and the empowerment stacks and i couldn't believe the fact that now i can actually manage to reach full stacks of both even playing solo! This is thanks to all the finishers added to hammer. Of course, it's not always the case but that's pretty fair. Cata is surely the hardest ele spec out there and players need to adjust to his playstile in order to make it work. Damage felt nice and consistant with a bit of skill spamming especially on marauder stats while with cele i could face pretty much all the HP in maguuma. On both scenarios, i didn't really have to build extra bunker-y traits or skills as hammer has quick access to the right skills. Thanks to new f5, combos are actually doable and i like the fact that i have to plan my fights around it. It just feels a bit dull as the primary class mechanic.

I'm not gonna comment much on raids: Roul did great stuff on and out of the benchmark. Once you get the grasp on the rotation, it's quite easy to get nice numbers. It will only need tons of experience for me to play it smoothly in real raid scenarios but it does feel perfectly doable.

I'm not gonna comment as well on pvp and wvw duels, better players will talk about that. I just have the feeling they'll apreciate the improvements too.
One bad note to group/zerg gameplay. Cata is really not a thing there. I've tried dps staff, it has a nice combo and nice cc access, but the build sacrifices too much for an all-in combo while staff weaver performs just better and for as long as the fight goes on. Cata staff support was interesting. Some cleansing through auras, very nice area boons (especially water/earth f5!), but it has nothing special to justify his presence in squad at the place of a scrapper or a fb. If only that earth f5 could be blasted to get an area stab..! :c

Other bad points: traits are not engaging. Don't get me wrong, they work, but they're boring to read/use/teorycraft..  They all feel very passive and similar. Even names are a mix of tongue-twister and monotone choices. Apart from picking better names i wouldn't know how to improve them tho 😕
Hammer could use a better gapcloser i guess. But i'll leave this to dueling players.
F5 mechanic is interesting when playing a support role... but quite dull when playing dps/bruiser. It works but it doesn't feel special at all. Hammer 3 skills feel special, but f5 feels almost like a utility in the wrong keyboard slot.

Overall i feel like Cata lacks of feeling "special". As many players have said, it feels a bit like core ele with a combo field at hand.
Anyway, thanks for listening to the playerbase feedback, it actually feels good :')

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