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Vindicator Feedback Thread


BadSanta.6527

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9 minutes ago, MIkoToriSU.7451 said:

The Kurzic elite utility has potential however I feel that its health degeneration mechanic along with not being able to heal yourself limits its use too much. It would perform much smoother if it had a time limit for it to be held, and the longer that you hold on to it the more benefit it provides.

 

In a group, you're using it with healhop.  Healhop's barrier will cover a significant portion of urns damage. 

 

Urn has a baked in limit to how long you can hold it, its -10 upkeep, which is WAAAAAAAAY too high and actually keeps urn from being good enough in that capacity.

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2 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

I personally think that F2 for endurance generation is fine. Is the whole flipover/invert thing that is bad and makes you play with the UI instead of playing the profession. 
I'd much prefer to get a F2+F3, with the endurance gain on F2 and something else on F3 (loadout freeze or loadout reset to a default decided by traits)

 

4 minutes ago, Kidel.2057 said:

There are many ways to fix Alliance without making them yet another legend swap. F2 (or better F3) could simply reset the loadout to Archemorous (or Saint Viktor if traited to do so). Or can "freeze" the current loadout (this is actually better and will allow some customization on Rev for the very first time, and on the fly based on the situation, even midfight!!).
 

I've been reading your idea over your proposed F3 "freeze", looks like you even created a specific thread for it. If I understand your idea correctly, it's that you want to create an F3 to lock in your preferred Archemorous/Saint Viktor utilities so there is no flip over skill.

My issue with this design still persists - The F2 (or F3 mechanic in this case) are not affecting all Legends. For example, if I equip Shiro/Jalis, how will this F3 "freeze" affect me? Does it affect me at all? If there is no benefit, the concept should not happen as it pigeonholes us into using Alliance stance, which is the major concern with the current F2 (it has extra benefit to only Alliance Stance).

So what would be your idea if your F3 "freeze" is implemented to have it affect all Legends in a meaningful way?

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27 minutes ago, Jaykay.9641 said:

 

I've been reading your idea over your proposed F3 "freeze", looks like you even created a specific thread for it. If I understand your idea correctly, it's that you want to create an F3 to lock in your preferred Archemorous/Saint Viktor utilities so there is no flip over skill.

My issue with this design still persists - The F2 (or F3 mechanic in this case) are not affecting all Legends. For example, if I equip Shiro/Jalis, how will this F3 "freeze" affect me? Does it affect me at all? If there is no benefit, the concept should not happen as it pigeonholes us into using Alliance stance, which is the major concern with the current F2 (it has extra benefit to only Alliance Stance).

So what would be your idea if your F3 "freeze" is implemented to have it affect all Legends in a meaningful way?

First of all I think that Core legends on Vindicator are currently better than Alliance mainly because F2 doesn't mess with their loadouts and simply adds endurance (that will be useful if the dodges become good).

To answer your question you can simply make that F3 changes with the current Legend (similarly to Facet of Nature). On Alliance it freezes the loadouts (or resets them, depending on the idea you like the most), on Jalis it could give you damage reduction, on Shiro can give superspeed, etc. You should get the gist of it

Edited by Kidel.2057
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for real? Im really disapointed by how bad the new expansion is, 4 out of 6 new classes, in my opinion where really bad, didnt felt like the actual class at all. 

new legendarys, legendarys where cool because of the induvidual skins and stuff, now we get a lazy pair of dragon parts as weapons... and fishing? for real? who needs fishing in gw2... and I preordered the game =( this is so sad... 

 

anet had the chance to use the hype and draw even more players into gw2, this is a real sad expansion, underdelivering and loveless content (at least it feels like this to me)

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Observation: Clearly they made the nec rev spec to be a burst spec, as it has quite a lot of burst and some cc not much in terms of mobility. The abilities i tried some being multi hit burst were doing ez 5k dmg some that were multi hit doing more.

Question: What is it thats giving me the passive proc of prot and might? Been messing around with dwarf stance and alliance stance to get a feel for it.

I have a issue: once you go into unrelenting assault it seems as if you cannot cancel it lets say if you get attacked by a monster you cannot cancel in mid multi hit.

Edited by Axl.8924
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43 minutes ago, Jaykay.9641 said:

 

I've been reading your idea over your proposed F3 "freeze", looks like you even created a specific thread for it. If I understand your idea correctly, it's that you want to create an F3 to lock in your preferred Archemorous/Saint Viktor utilities so there is no flip over skill.

My issue with this design still persists - The F2 (or F3 mechanic in this case) are not affecting all Legends. For example, if I equip Shiro/Jalis, how will this F3 "freeze" affect me? Does it affect me at all? If there is no benefit, the concept should not happen as it pigeonholes us into using Alliance stance, which is the major concern with the current F2 (it has extra benefit to only Alliance Stance).

So what would be your idea if your F3 "freeze" is implemented to have it affect all Legends in a meaningful way?

He seems to be dying on the hill of wanting this "freeze" but it doesn't make sense.

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6 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

He seems to be dying on the hill of wanting this "freeze" but it doesn't make sense.

I just replied, but honestly I don't care about the freeze itself. Even the reset idea is fine and I have been pushing that one too.

Anything but the unplayable crap we have now. If you have any decent idea I'm open to that. If you think it doesn't make sense, you're free to suggest something better. I may even like it.

 

The spec has many problems, but most of them can be fixed with some relatively minor adjustments. The main thing we should aim to change is the Alliance stance and the flipover management. I personally think I should focus on that 

Edited by Kidel.2057
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2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, you need something else, but it's not true that something else isn't there. I mean, Even though I'm not liking the overlap with Sword, there is LOTS of things going on with GS that are attractive for players to have. 

In otherwords ... if Sword builds have 'the something that should be there', then GS must as well. 

So, we gave up dodge, having no cd, vuln, might, def frames, usability, good skills, and in exchange we got.... What? Cleave? 

Ok.

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2 hours ago, Sagarsdude.3209 said:

What is more survivable, instant cast invis or some heavy armor (which btw if you want power dps then the rev has to go berserker which has 0 defense stats)? Also, the condi build that you just mentioned, guess what it plays like? Yes, it has double energy sigil and spams dodge as much as possible to keep mirage cloak up so it can be invuln to everything. The problem with rev is more that if you force out a rev dodge, then the rev HAS to legend swap/weapon swap or f2 to get a dodge back. So when a rev dodges you are essentially guaranteed free pressure onto them until they have their dodge back.

You can add me to the list of people who disagree with you. You have easy access to 100% endurance regen, so that spare dodge is going to be offset by vindicator generating dodges faster pretty early in the fight and overtaken by a mile in any kind of extended fight. Most classes can throw out 2 back to back dodges but you've just listed a few ways vindicator can do the same, one of which is built into the class and has very little purpose beyond a spare dodge.  Then 2 of the saint viktor utility skills have evades built into them so vindicator can throw out like 5 back to back dodges, with big aoe heals and longer invulnerability windows

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1 hour ago, Barraind.7324 said:

 

In a group, you're using it with healhop.  Healhop's barrier will cover a significant portion of urns damage. 

 

Urn has a baked in limit to how long you can hold it, its -10 upkeep, which is WAAAAAAAAY too high and actually keeps urn from being good enough in that capacity.

 

Upkeep isn't really the problem. The real problem is this skill require you to be on the verge of death to get the full drop effect. If you mitigate the damage with barrier, you are nerfing the skill itself.

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Just now, Heinel.6548 said:

 

Upkeep isn't really the problem. The real problem is this skill require you to be on the verge of death to get the full drop effect. If you mitigate the damage with barrier, you are nerfing the skill itself.

I just drop it immediately when already low on health

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Vin ain't bad, but in its current implementation is a bit clunky. 

I think one of its biggest turn offs is when you use an alliance utility, and it switches over to another skill. This can create a lot of annoying gameplay, like when I want to use a damage utility but can't because it's currently on a support utility. To get a damage one, I'm forced to either waste my support utility or press f2 on a 20 second cooldown. 

 

My suggestion would be to keep them separate unless you press the f2 ability. So in practice: 

You have your damage utility skills locked, and your support locked. If you want to switch over to support/damage you have to press f2. This also creates a different kind of consequence where, if you want to switch to support and you did so by pressing f2; you will be locked to it for 20 seconds. Same for damage. So the player will have to think twice before commiting to a legend. 

 

Granted, this kinda makes it appear as though Vin can channel 3 legends, which it already can. This change will just make it less clunky where players have to commit to a legend where it can go on the defensive/offensive depending on the situation. 

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I can certainly understand a lot of the negative feedback for Vindicator but I've just had an extremely fun night of playing WvW as an Alliance/Ventari heal rev and I really hope that's not lost if ANet decides to make any sweeping changes to the spec.

The heal dodge felt amazing to me with a lot of endurance traits - I was bouncing up and down like there's no tomorrow and slamming my team for insane burst heals every time and it felt extremely satisfying. The heal skill on Saint Viktor felt similarly impactful and it was beautiful seeing those green numbers swirling around me.

I didn't find the skill flipping as clunky as a lot of people seem to and actually found it relatively easy to manage once I worked out I simply needed to always use the skills I wanted back as Alliance Tactics would necessarily be off cooldown once I got back to alliance stance - I'm not sure Alliance Tactics needs a cast time though as that did feel like unnecessary clunk. I did struggle more with finding good uses for the other utilities and found myself camping Ventari a lot but I think in a lot of cases that may have been a 'l2p' issue as it's my first night with the spec.

There's definitely room for improvement with heal Vindicator (I can't speak for DPS as it wasn't what I played); it'd be nice if the greatsword played into a support spec more (I didn't really get any use from it and found myself sticking to staff) and if there was a bit more healing/regen on the utilities outside of Saint Viktor's heal so it didn't feel like I was using them purely to flip them back with Alliance Tactics when I got back to the stance if there weren't any condis to cleanse. Overall though, it felt amazing to have a stance that complemented Ventari in WvW, the heal dodge felt great, the potential depth of the class excites me, and I think there's a really cool foundation to work from 🙂

Edited by Kwacker.2437
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1 minute ago, Heinel.6548 said:

 

Upkeep isn't really the problem. The real problem is this skill require you to be on the verge of death to get the full drop effect. If you mitigate the damage with barrier, you are nerfing the skill itself.

 

You do actually get a significant amount of pulse healing from it if you let it run the duration, and you'll still get regen out of it unless you have another barrier source.   The only thing you're going to miss most of the time is getting Resilience for your party (unless you're taking a significant amount of damage elsewhere), and one breakpoint of burst healing, but if you've sat on urn for the duration, you already made up for that healing.  Urn drops dont affect you either, so the person who most needs the healing from it isnt getting it to begin with. 

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2 minutes ago, Heinel.6548 said:

This is one of the criticisms as well. In PvP, where this spec actually matter, everyone is gonna interrupt your drop so you kill yourself.

Agreed its quite risky at the best of times. I aim more towards the 50% protection buff than the 25% one. If it goes wrong its a bit less punishing.

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3 minutes ago, Barraind.7324 said:

 

You do actually get a significant amount of pulse healing from it if you let it run the duration, and you'll still get regen out of it unless you have another barrier source.   The only thing you're going to miss most of the time is getting Resilience for your party (unless you're taking a significant amount of damage elsewhere), and one breakpoint of burst healing, but if you've sat on urn for the duration, you already made up for that healing.  Urn drops dont affect you either, so the person who most needs the healing from it isnt getting it to begin with. 

 

You confirmed that the current implementation of the skill has a self defeating mechanic.

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I get they wanted to make so that Rev gets a "selfless mode" kind of like Firebrand. The point is that Firebrand can decide when to get the kit and help others. 

Vindicator has instead long cooldowns, huge energy costs and that kittening F2 to make things complicated and force you to watch at the ui. 

 

F2 endurance gen and f2 flip should be separated and the flip shouldn't have a cd and be more simple (like a freeze or a revert to default).

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12 minutes ago, Heinel.6548 said:

 

You confirmed that the current implementation of the skill has a self defeating mechanic.

 

Yes, as is, its a stupidly designed skill that has multiple different limitations on it all working against each other. 

 

 Make the upkeep the traditional "costs 1 upkeep if active" and its a very good team heal thats mitigated well by the spec dodge mechanic.

 

Keep the upkeep but have a better reward on the drop, and it doesnt feel bad.

 

Remove the cooldown and let you drop it without the 2 seconds of pulses, and its yet_another_regen/prot_tool. 

 

As is, it actually cant be both a useful pulse and a useful drop. 

 

Edit - OR go crazy with it and have it be an energy GENERATOR that rewards you for holding it (reduce the pulse healing) and bad things happening to you, and let it kill you if you dont drop it in time for its boons (and let the drop affect you)

Edited by Barraind.7324
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Many people have already talked about most of my topics, but I wanna reinforce with my own feedback. I feel like we, as players, are good to idenfity the problems while the devs are good to idenfity the solutions. So I'll only list the problems that I've found.

  1. F2 feels unrewarding outside Alliance Stance. It has more value when using it while in the Alliance Stance, so if you're on another one while Alliance is on cooldown, you feel punished. And if you're not using Alliance Stance at all, then it feels very weak.
     
  2. Many traits are bound to Alliance Stance. Running a build without it, feels like you're out of 1/3 or even more of the available traits. It really hurts the build variety.
     
  3. GS is fun, but it feels like...it's just there. There's no synergy within it's own skills or the Alliance Stance or anything, really. It's not bad, but it feels very bland. No combo (outside maybe getting quickness from the Archemorus skill and casting #5) or anything.  Also, the chill on the autoattack really doesn't seems enough for you to stick to your targets or set a huge #5.
     
  4. I like the different dodges, but it feels very clunky. I'm pretty sure I have been hit on both the startup and the finishing from the dodge animation, and it feels awful. Also, the fact that you're stuck for half a second at the finishing animation (you can easily test this with autorunning and dodging). The time you stay in the air might be too much for the damaging one, and it feels like you're losing more damage than dealing it.
     
  5. Both elite skills feels very, underwhelming. Both on gameplay (one is fire and forget without a good feedback and the other is super clunky without doubletap) but also on the power of them. 
     
  6. The cast time on some skills also feels bad. Specially on the back dodge from Saint Viktor (I forgot the name and I don't have access to the game right now). It's not a reliable condi cleanse because it puts you in a position that you didn't want to if you want just the condi clear, and it is not reliable as a retreat/dodge because of the cast time.
     
  7. Flip skills. While not having a upkeep skill grants you more energy overall, the cooldown between using one and having the second one available feels quite bad. The spec already feels like you have not much control of what is available to you (even with proper F2 use) but the 10s cooldown makes it even worse. It is an interesting and new mechanic, but the flip skills just doesn't feel good. Instead of feeling like a mastermind for using it, I just feel like I have no control at all of what is available to me and how to plan my actions while in the middle of the action.


In short, I feel like it doesn't feels good right now but it is totally able to be fixed. It feels clunky (animations, cast times and flip skills), without sinergy withing itself (GS and utilities) and at the same time, over reliant on the Alliance Stance (F2 and traits). The  lack of CC also hurts.

The spec has great potential, but still needs work. Some minor tweaks, and some complete changes.

I'm sure there are more things that I can't remember right now, but I'll edit later.

 

Edited by Pumpkin.5169
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20 minutes ago, Dragon.8762 said:

My suggestion would be to keep them separate unless you press the f2 ability. So in practice: 

You have your damage utility skills locked, and your support locked. If you want to switch over to support/damage you have to press f2. This also creates a different kind of consequence where, if you want to switch to support and you did so by pressing f2; you will be locked to it for 20 seconds. Same for damage. So the player will have to think twice before commiting to a legend. 

Frankly F2 endurance gen and loadout management should always be separated. Regardless of the mechanic. 

 

Let's say they keep the current "invert loadout" mechanic. Cool. Make f2 the endurance generator and put the loadout "flip" on f3 with no cooldown

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8 minutes ago, Barraind.7324 said:

 

Yes, as is, its a stupidly designed skill that has multiple different limitations on it all working against each other. 

 

 Make the upkeep the traditional "costs 1 upkeep if active" and its a very good team heal thats mitigated well by the spec dodge mechanic.

 

Keep the upkeep but have a better reward on the drop, and it doesnt feel bad.

 

Remove the cooldown and let you drop it without the 2 seconds of pulses, and its yet_another_regen/prot_tool. 

 

As is, it actually cant be both a useful pulse and a useful drop. 

 

The high upkeep can be useful for the legend as it is now because it is the only upkeep skill in the legend across both kurzick and luxon, and the rest of the abilities have very long cooldown (by rev standards). It's actually difficult to drain your energy for charged mist for your legend swap without this.

You could press all the buttons and swap, but considering 66% of utilities in this spec are reactionary skills, you'll just be wasting a lot.

Edited by Heinel.6548
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3 minutes ago, Pumpkin.5169 said:

Flip skills. While not having a upkeep skill grants you more energy overall, the cooldown between using one and having the second one available feels quite bad. The spec already feels like you have not much control of what is available to you (even with proper F2 use) but the 10s cooldown makes it even worse. It is an interesting and new mechanic, but the flip skills just doesn't feel good. Instead of feeling like a mastermind for using it, I just feel like I have no control at all of what is available to me and how to plan my actions while in the middle of the action.

Got some problems with that. 

First of all this spec has 1 upkeep. And it's the most expensive one in the game. Urn costs 10 pips per second. I get you may have excluded it on purpose tho, let's all pretend that skill doesn't exist.

Second what's the "proper f2 use"? Flip loadouts or endurance gain? Because when I want to get endurance I may not want to flip my skills or vice versa. Having the 2 effects together is just stupid. Separate them and put the flip on F3 with no cooldown. And now we may have something decent.

Third, the energy cost of Alluliance are overall off the charts. It's just that the skills are situational and not very good, so you don't use them so often. Compare them with Shiro (actually some are very similar but much better) and Jalis. 

 

I agree with the rest.

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35 minutes ago, Caid.4932 said:

You can add me to the list of people who disagree with you. You have easy access to 100% endurance regen, so that spare dodge is going to be offset by vindicator generating dodges faster pretty early in the fight and overtaken by a mile in any kind of extended fight. Most classes can throw out 2 back to back dodges but you've just listed a few ways vindicator can do the same, one of which is built into the class and has very little purpose beyond a spare dodge.  Then 2 of the saint viktor utility skills have evades built into them so vindicator can throw out like 5 back to back dodges, with big aoe heals and longer invulnerability windows

Do you understand why this is bad? Do you understand that they have created a spec that completely revolves around trying to maintain dodge upkeep instead of actually playing the game? I don't understand how people can want this gameplay. And guess what?? IF vindicator can't upkeep its dodges then its immediately off meta in pvp/wvw because it will get FARMED by any spec pre EoD. Just look at META mirage builds around and the sigils it equips and tell me what the strategy is for mirage??? This is the end game for vindicator, either dodge or get farmed, and if you dodge then get your next dodge ready. 

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