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Vindicator Feedback Thread


BadSanta.6527

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The GS feels nice.

 

The dodge feels terrible. Turning your two dodges into a single OK-ish attack or decent heal is a terrible idea. The dodge takes something between 2-4 seconds depending on which grandmaster trait you take and that dodge is effectively the "cast" time of the damage or heal which hampers its usefulness. I do not think that the benefits you get for dodging merit being reduced to a single dodge. (Yeah, I know about the 15% damage boost option, but I feel like you can get that kind of damage boost from herald or renegade without this kind of trade-off).

 

The traits are too focused on the one dodge mechanic. The grandmaster is purely on tweaking that one dodge, the middle traits all focus on mitigating an endurance problem that the spec itself creates.

 

For the skills I'd prefer if you had a choice of which of the two Alliance Skills you wanted to slot. So you could slot the Urn of Saint Victor or the Spear of Archemorus for example, and pressing F2 meant that you flipped your skills for a few seconds or possibly until you used a single skill. So for example you could press F2 to flip over your skills to get an emergency stunbreak or heal.

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23 hours ago, JekthAvid.1408 said:

Personally, I love this spec. There are a few bugs but overall it feels fantastic for me to play. I've been having a blast with glass cannon shiro/alliance gs/sword sword in pvp and ventari/alliance with staff/gs in pve, despite how many people feel about ventari.

I'm curious, is your PvE a healer build? How exactly are you dealing with the flip, which I find to be the most intrusive part of the spec. I don't enjoy playing the UI. I feel like the flips should flow into each other, with complimentary skills, instead they feel like slamming into wall repeatedly. I've offered suggestions to change this but I might as well ask if someone has actually found a way to make this work?

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Love the spec this far, but what I would like to see iterated on is an opt out feature for the leap dodge, as well as at least some CC on the vindicator kit, which it is currently lacking. Dont think I need to mention numbers tuning, but here goes anyway.

 

Cheers, excited for Vindicator full release with EoD o/

EDIT: I would also love to see a slight range increase on GS skill 2, to better match the animation and make it slightly easier to hit, especially since Vindicator doesn't really have an inherent movement speed. (Reliant on Invocation Passive for swiftness on 5 sec ICD)

Edited by Ambitionz.3628
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Have to agree with everyone else who's expressed confusion over the identity of Vindicator, ie why it's a hybrid DPS/support spec and not just a straight power DPS spec. Hell, I'd even settle for still having a more hybrid straight power DPS that annihilates everything in sight on Archemorus, with a more aggressively defensive brawler that deals less damage but can support themselves and allies while still remaining aggressive in the thick of things on Saint Viktor. Would seriously hate to see GS be wasted on such a hybrid spec, if Vindicator releases like this.

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Like the concept of spec, currently playing in Spvp with Jalis as a dmg/support hybrid build.

Things i would change/fix:

- Forerunner of Death traits isnt worth the deal imho: 150 energy cost for a reduced aoe and dmg buff feels bad.. maybe 125 energy and normal aoe would fix it.

- Vassal of the Empire trait doesnt give the 2 second duration bonus to vigor given by Song of Arboreum trait . I think dodge should first give boons, and then give the 2 sec bonus to them. 

- Alliance Tactics (F2) should give boons when used on other legends, something similar to Song of the Mists or Spirit Boon trait. right now is a 25 energy for 50 endurance.. maybe reduce energy cost by 5?

- both elite skills feels too weak: Spear got low damage, while Urn is basically a suicide button (while being the only upkeep skill of the spec.. feels bad)

- greatsword animation feels unfinished/cluncky .. hope we will get animations upgrade and some QoL changes like range on gs3

- sometimes u get hit/cc'ed during dodge animation, feels like it bugs out.

 

Keep up the good work Anet, this spec could be so much fun!

Sorry for bad english, not first language.

 

 

Edited by Geralt z Rivii.8135
edit: fixed for readability
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After trying it a bit (mostly PvE and WvW), I got some first impressions.

  • I do like the greatsword skills. Balancing and numbers are probably not finale, but in general the skills are all useful and offer something (be it utility, mobility or damage)
  • Utility flipping certainly takes a while getting used to. I agree with a lot of people here in that I'm not sure if the current implementation (flip on use, F2 to swap) is the best one. I really wonder if Anet had some other approaches in their design.
  • Utility skills in general felt a bit lackluster, but mostly in numbers and performance.  Most of them had their usecases
  • Urn Elite felt a bit weird when running around solo. It's completely useless unless you are in a group.
  • The Dodge. Oh boy. I already got annoyed after a few times using it. I'd much prefer it if this worked more like a Mirage Ambush skill - a regular dodge that gives you the option to do the jump:
    • Give the Vindicator its 2 dodges back and return to the regular dodge mechanic
    • At full endurance and after you dodge, you may press "F3" to do the jump, spending the second half of the endurance bar
    • That way, the jump still has its full cost, but becomes player choice.
    • I know that current balance policies are talking about tradeoffs, but I'm sure there are other ways. Slower endurance regen, or anything else that feels less clunky.

I haven't done a deep dive into the traits so far, tho I did like the ability to "adjust" the jump dodge in the grandmaster tier.

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Please, please, please hear me out. Get rid of the horrible Elite skills and move the leap "dodge" move as the Elite skill. The elite spear sucks, and the elite heal sucks. Get RID of them. The whole leap was like the eye candy big showy thing of the Vindicator. Make it the ELITE!!! keep the traits which are focused on the leap anyway. It basically makes it appear as if the leap is the elite skill anyway so move it to the elite button.

 

Add actual dodges back because it doesn't matter what game mode you are in you HAVE to dodge. The class was described as being more focused on larger fights but in larger fights you need DODGES. I tried the leap dodge and got shot out of the sky and instantly spiked to death. It's pointless. 

 

PVE, PVP, WvW, Raids, Strikes, Fractals, Hell even beginner training there is a point that you NEED DODGES. 

 

I love the Great Sword abilities and I think they can work great but I probably will never run Vindicator if there isn't a way to dodge properly. That's a shame because I feel like I've been waiting and hoping for years that Rev gets GS.

 

And the switch back and forth from Archie and Vic seemed good at first but it's very clunky and doesn't work if you are running a power only or support only build. Alac Renegade makes a way better Hybrid DPS/Support class with Harrier gear. You can't change your stats on a cool down to match so it's really not going to work. I think it should stay on whatever you have it set to and it stays that way during combat and you get out of combat to switch. But also all these cooldowns and such don't feel like a Rev at all. What's the point of having an Upkeep Bar anymore? Make it so that instead of a cool down after you use and Archie skill that if you have enough Upkeep you can use the Vic skill right afterwards and then there is a small cooldown afterwards because you just blew both moves. That would be more like a Rev is you ask me.

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Comment and suggestions after testing day 2

 

Utility mechanic is difficult to use from

1. Mess between each other. 
2. I have to waste energy to swap the needed skill back.

3. Total Skill cool down is longer than Ren or herald if player want to use same skill.

4. The healing amount was distributed into util skill  6 7 8 0.  That mean you have spend energy and cd to use skill to get heal. But… that is back lash for all utility skill. 
compare to common mechanic. You just use one skill and save other for later as necessary. But these  concept force you to use all button and wait cd.  Some skill effect should use in right time but the force use for healing make them waste.

 

I still want to suggest some option

1. split Arch and Vik into F3 and F4 

2. F2 swap to only Arch or. Vik . The skill which already use show cd and back to origin. Not like beta test that mix from both. This will help mess in playing. And save F3 button F4 for future change.

 

Healing skill 

it is ok for mob , pve. For pvp. It cannot give proper heal amount coz it seem healing split in to half. And cool down between skill will stuck each other. 
Selfish spirit heal 714 cd 10s , it suit for mob or mass player fight than 1-1 or fight with boss alone

selfless heal 714 cd10 sec.. it is too low compare to any core legend. Actually healing skill should be life saver button.  

 

Elite skill 

it feel contrast. I agree that this combination suit for support role. As for Frontline role. It risk like suicide cause it reduce your health as well as consume action time.

 

dodge mechanic is great idea.  However there is some gap to improve as many mention . 
from 2 time dodge to 1 time dodge+ side effect of damage or heal..

 

if you can adjust, possible option are

1. please add  evade 1.5 sec effect into some GS weapon skill. These will balance the 1 bar of endurance missing

2. Tenacious Ruin add 25% endurance regeneration effect.

 

the combination  with other core is ok.

 

Edited by Thon.3780
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I'm wondering if it might be practical to get rid of the skill swapping nature of the class entirely, change Alliance Tactics to something more interesting, and make the whole class more fluid.

 

Alliance Tactics 

Restores endurance and causes the INACTIVE legend to trigger an effect.

Shiro - Activates Impossible Odds for set duration, no upkeep.

Jalis - Activates Rite of the Great Dwarf.

Ventari - Activates Natural Harmony.

Mallyx - Triggers Pain Absorbtion

Alliance - Triggers Scavenger Burst.

 

Skills 7-10 use Luxon skills as base

 

The more offensive skills will generally be more desirable.

 

Skill 6 becomes Urn of St Victor

 

The reworked effect drops the urn on the ground to heal surrounding players and absorb a percentage of incoming damage. When the urn takes enough damage, it explodes with a final heal.

 

Major Adept Traits all Buff Alliance Skills

 

Luxon trait adds self-buffs to Alliance legend skills and increases damage output, with different effects for each skills. Alliance Tactics buffs your damage output for a duration.

 

Kurzick trait adds healing and condi cleanse to Alliance legend skills, with different effects for each skill. Alliance Tactics restores additional group endurance and heals in an area.

 

Imperial trait adds group buffs and enemy debuffs to Alliance legend skills, with different effects for each skill. Alliance Tactics grants Alacrity in an area.

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Been testing the Vindicator on a friend house and we pretty much share the same views on the spec:

- Greatsword. 

It is "ok". The skill set seems good except for the dash. No dodge, almost no damage. Seems like the devs ran out of ideas for that skill. The only thing really bad about the Greatsword is the icon designs. All the core Revenant weapon icons have the similar haze thematic. The Renegade icons are less evident, but the Vindicator GS icons seems like weapon skills for guardians rather than Revenant. Is the only thing I really dislike about the Greatsword.

- Skills.

While the dual legend idea is good, I don't like the execution. Boons and numbers may be from "ok" to "acceptable", but having no CC, having to care about the energy and now having to care about both the endurance and the Archemorus/Viktor timers... I really didn't had fun playing Vindicator outside WvW zergs, where you are carried by supports and you can just focus on dealing damage. But apart from that, Vindicator seemed both weak and complicated, high risk, low reward. The Archemorus skills are not good, again they are "ok", while the Viktor skills to me are very awful, specially the elite.

- Traits.

This is the worst part for me. No damage multipliers = Weak specialization. I get that the dodge mechanic is important and you have to focus the traits on it, but you could just make a normal dodge class and have traits focused on damage multipliers, boon sharing, survivability, etc... 

 

So I'm my honest opinion, the way to make Vindicator really good and enjoyable to play is:

1. Back to the normal roll mechanic (Mirage complains weren't enough clear to NOT make more experiments like this?). Having  just normal rolls, rework the entire Vindicator trait line. Add damage multipliers, survivability traits, effects on legend swap. Give reasons to choose Vindicator over Herald or Renegade, and give reasons to choose Alliance over Shiro/Jalis. Rework Energy Meld so it has different effects depending of the current legend.

2. Rethink the flipping mechanic. Is not the same than facets, is not really fun, I've even read opinions of people calling it "counterintuitive". Either let us lock the skills we want or instead having two skills of each type, make it only one skill with double effect (Archemorus + Viktor). For example, delete Battle Dance, keep Nomad's Advance and let this skill grant both Might and Regeneration. It won't ever be OP with energy cost + cooldown.

3. Small rework on Greatsword #3 to make it a small dodge. Make the icon designs more alike to Revenant instead Guardian.

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Ok i go from least concerning to most concerning issues i have with vindicator:

 

Traits: good with some minor critique.

Overall i think the traits are good and give you choices and dont feel pointless. The lack of chill and dodge synergy is a missed opportunity though.

 

Skills: Most of them are great but i hate the elite.

 

I really like the skill design both for Archemorus and Viktor. What i do not like is the elite. The one charge hard hitting elite of archemorus feels more like a hard hitting utility skill tbh and viktors Urn is like a "please kill me" button for anything else than Group based PvE.

I do not like the lack of CC of the spec and the lack of a universally useful upkeep.

I think giving archemorus an upkeep Ground targeted damage field that can be recast to shoot the spear at your target for massive Cc depending on your energy pool could really be a nice tool for breakbars and it would mimic Viktors Elite.

 

Class Mechanic: Solid

The dodge mechanic and the endurance on F2 is nice. The ability to switch between Viktor and Archemorus is also nice although uncoupling those two things would help in someway I dont mind it staying as it is.

 

Greatsword: Solid. 

Apart from a tidbit more needed damage it is really good. Nothing to complain.

 

Synergy with base Rev:

Here is where i have most criticism:

Synergy with most specializations is decent but overall I do not like the synrgy it provides with Salvation. Salvation would synergize really well but you miss out on the whole traitline if you dontmwanna play ventari, also ventaris tablet clashes with the mobile vindicator and thus makes being a vindicator healer even more tedious. So my main criticism is the actual salvation line overfocussing on ventari and being not versatile enough for anything else than a support line instead of providing other utilities for bruisee buidls without losing value if you choose against ventari.

Ventari is clunkily designed and desperately needs an update.

 

 

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The dual legend system feels a bit trained at the moment. Normally when you run out of cooldown and energy you changed legends but it can be troublesome when you now have 10 buttons instead of 5.

The problem I have is the cool down times between the alliance  legends. It does not lend it self to a good flow.

If the cooldown between skills were lowered to.. well one sec or so, and the rest of the cooldown added to the second skill it would flow more freely i think. There is also no synergi or bonus to use both abilities in a row which there should be.

 

 I also think there should be some more F2 abilities or different buffs for when you do not use the Alliance legend. It seems to be a oversite when looking at the Renegade and Herald. 

 

About the traits,- I find it hard to find synergi builds with the rest of the trait lines, it seems to be more self centered , but that could just be me.

 

I love the tought behind the new jump ability but it just cost to much energy to use anyting else then the heal option.

 

The GW works well I think and feels good.

 

 

Edited by Sindre.6928
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42 minutes ago, tetrodoxin.2134 said:
  • The Dodge. Oh boy. I already got annoyed after a few times using it. I'd much prefer it if this worked more like a Mirage Ambush skill - a regular dodge that gives you the option to do the jump:
    • Give the Vindicator its 2 dodges back and return to the regular dodge mechanic
    • At full endurance and after you dodge, you may press "F3" to do the jump, spending the second half of the endurance bar
    • That way, the jump still has its full cost, but becomes player choice.
    • I know that current balance policies are talking about tradeoffs, but I'm sure there are other ways. Slower endurance regen, or anything else that feels less clunky.

I haven't done a deep dive into the traits so far, tho I did like the ability to "adjust" the jump dodge in the grandmaster tier.

I like the idea of moving it to the F3 as an option rather than replacing your base dodge. The Grandmaster traits could still work in a similar way to the way they do now, with the top Grandmaster consuming both dodges and the others consuming only 1 or 1 and a half dodges.

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1: Vindicator's first 3 major adept traits needs changes. 2 of 3 focus on legendary alliance skills and one of them is weak.
Suggestions:
-Make Leviathan Strength work with all legendary stances. This would make things a lot more interesting.
-Amnesty of Shing Jea looks okay.
-Do something about Redemptor's Sermon. Nobody will pick this in its current state.

2: Make both elites upkeep skills. Currently energy feels like a wasted mechanic on Vindicator.
To do this make Spear of Archemorus like Dragonhunter's Spear of Justice: add a tethering effect to it which requires energy to upkeep. If energy drops to zero it breaks. Urn of Saint Victor needs buffs, currently this is not a elite skill.
I really think we need a reliable upkeep skill for power Vindicators. Right now Jalis and Shiro look much more appealing.

Edited by Suoma.7693
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I'm not a main Rev but I'd also like to give my feedback. I mainly play Reaper and Scourge, but I've played every spec over the course of my 9 years in GW2. 

I love this game and I wish for it to be polished and lively. 

Pros: 
- nice Jump effect. 

Cons:
- Alliance "art over the head" is way off from the other legends. It's a bit of a punch in the face from the more realistic artstyle. This one looks cartoonish. 
- Terrible loadout management
- No damage
- Slow
- Forces you to check the UI and play with that instead of looking on the field.
- Elites are terrible. But Urn can be used to reset the skills to Archemorus going in downstate. Was that intended? 

Let me start with the biggest issue. Most people have already expressed it, but I want to add my point ov view too. 
I don't like to manage the UI. I like to be able to memorize my skills and skill position. This is also true and possible with professions like Elementalist where you have many weaponskills. 

I always find it hard on Revenant because Utility skills move around all the time. I'm not sure why, if it's a bug or not, but the 3 utility skill change position from time to time. At least after the build templates were added to the game. 

Now it's impossible. Legendary Alliance and Alliance Tactics are an overcomplicated mess with no payoff

What's the benefit from using an Alliance "utility" skill? I get a 10s cooldown (on an energy based class) and I swap to a less useful skill. Just great. 

The class is also built around the dodge/jump (I'll just call it jump from FFXIV). Cool, I love it. It's great, expecially the fast one (I'm sure you'll fix the other 2 terrible ones, those are clearly an oversight). 

F2 recovers endurance and allows you to jump more often. Great, good. 
Too bad it has the "added benefit" of flipping your skills, soooo... If I need endurance now my skills are flipped and I need to check the UI to see my current loadout, instead of checking what's happening in the fight. This is awful. Also because I have bad eyesight 🤓

I don't play Revenant as a main, again. This means I'm not familiar with Shiro or Jalis skills, so it's not a matter of "git gud with Alliance". I had to "git gud" with all of them. I switched to 2 core rev legends and the spec became fun to play and actually decent in open world content. Sure I had basically no dodge if I didn't pick the healing one (Saint Shield I believe), which left me with less dps, but at least it took me 20 seconds to teach my fingers which skill did what and I never had to look at the UI again

Many people suggested to separate the energy gain (you already have Energy Meld that does only that) and the loadout management skill. I think that's a great idea. Those 2 effects should never combine. 
And for the love of God, make the management simple (KISS), like a reset or something like that. You're basically applying a "NOT" function that is impossible to process on the fly since it requires previous knowledge of the current loadout state, so people basically have to check all the kittykitten time. At the moment the best way to manage skills is to get downed so they revert to Archemorus 😂 (easy with Urn).

I don't mind that skills flip over after 1 use, but the player should gain some kind of benefit for the fact that it's now forced to use a skill that's not made for the initial build. For example St. Viktor skills can give a damage buff to the flipped Archemorus skill, so that when you use them you're rewarded on the next skill. 

 

Spear elite would benefit from a hard CC and less delay after activation (some breakbars in this game are fast). 
Urn elite... I don't really know how this is supposed to be used. The tooltip said 1% damage, that is bad enough, but it seems to deal 5% to the user. It also prevents to be healed and can't be double tapped. Plus 10 upkeep to mantain. I'm not sure really how to use it or when it's useful. It just seems made to go in downstate so that you can reset the skills to Archemorus😂

Greatsword is almost fine. Needs a hard cc and the "leap" is super short despite being technically 900 range. I also don't like that it walks super fast instead of jumping. It's a class that jumps on dodge, why does it walk like that on the "leap"? I come from Reaper so I don't perceive it as slow. It may need more damage to compensate. 

Jump 1 and 2 are unusable. 3 is great but dopesn't do damage. I'm sure it's great in pvp and wvw. 

tl;dr: this spec needs some minor  tweaks and a total redo of Legendary Alliance and F2. 

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  1. Greatsword skills feel good so far
  2. The utility skill swapping mechanic feels bad. Swapping between DPS and Support focused skills on one utility bar, and having them be all jumbled up just feels frustrating. Rather than being fun and intuitive, it feels like some purposefully frustrating mechanic was put in place to make the spec more complicated than it has to be, for no real payoff. I don't think Rev needs a hybrid DPS/Support build, just focus on power.
  3. The elites are underwhelming in practice. Their concepts are cool but the urn in solo play is pointless, and I feel like the spear should having piercing for the amount of time it takes to actually cast the skill. It's hard to setup on the target you want when there are multiple enemies on the field.
  4. The dodge mechanic is fun, but not as a replacement for dodge. It would be more fun if it was a GS skill, or a replacement for the F2 skill, where the ability to use it gets built up over time like Catalyst's energy or Bladesworn's Flow. As it is, the Vindicator trait line is entirely too focused on making the dodge mechanic more usable and buffing energy regen, rather than on more interesting things like modifying how the mechanic works (for reference, something like the Scourge grandmaster trait that turns the shades into 1, big shade).
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Introduction

I hereby present my feedback on the Vindicator elite spec for the Revenant class. I will divide my feedback into several sections and will try to look at things from mainly a PvE perspective. Vindicator was the spec that hyped me the most out of the three newest beta elite specs. I really loved the idea of getting two legends to toy with, and that dramatic dodge looked awesome! But after playing it for quite a bit (as far one can say this in a Beta event), I am afraid the spec has a lot of issues that completely kill both its DPS and support potential.


The PvE DPS numbers:

Unfortunately the thing is that the Vindicator as a whole is dramatically undertuned for damage. Greatsword is only a part of this issue. Both it and traits need help to get the damage to a good level. Even the best of the best players among us are having trouble getting above 30k on the golem. If under perfect circumstances and perfect boons, it is almost impossible to break the 30k damage barrier, something is wrong.  More damage is needed, either through greatsword buffs, or through traits with more/additional damage modifiers. The fact that the damage on the legend skills (even the spear elite) is quite low doesnt help either.

 

Possible issue with the theme:

None to be honest, none. It feels fitting to get the legends of two of Cantha’s greatest heroes in our new spec, I don’t think there would be a better suited choice for me personally. I know that Archemorus and Saint Victor aren’t everyone’s first choice ( I have seen suggestions for a Naga legend, a Tengu legend, Master Togo, an ancient evil mage legend, Vizu or Nika, even Razah at one point), but at least they are influential figures in Canthan lore.

 

Possible issue with the mechanic:

The Flip over nature of the legend skills feel clunky, you don’t have access to what you want when you need it, and the shared cooldowns don’t help either. The current F2 skill could also use some additional/other functionality or a split into different skills. It really hurts that I come to this conclusion, because on paper this flip-over system is a highly creative one that was guaranteed to add a new flavour to the revenant playstyle. But after trying it extensively, the only conclusion I am able to reach is that it is a mechanic that does not work as well as I hoped it would.

 

Some proposals:

1. I am wondering if it wouldn’t be better to just separate the two legends and switch between Archemorus/Victor with F2, while switching to a non legendary-alliance legend with F1. I understand that would hurt the uniqueness, but at least it would work and not frustrate the player.
 
2. In addition the current F2 skill feels harsh when it comes to flipping skills, essentially adding a big energy cost to the first skill you want to use from the other half of your alliance (you are pretty much forced into the trait for this if you want to be able to somewhat reliably access your skills).

 

3. If the suggestion to split the two into seperate legends doesnt work, I feel this F2 needs to be split into an F2 and an F3, with F2 trading energy for endurance, and F3 flipping/resetting the legend skills, with adjusted costs and recharges (meaning you roll the Leviathan Strength trait into an F3 skill). Because currently you will often find yourself stuck with skills from a legend you don’t want, or use something to get to the legend you need only to have the thing you want on cooldown. I appreciate the flavor/idea, but I currently feel it is holding the spec back.

 

4. Another suggestion: Combine the two legends in one skillbar. Make the heal skill Saint Victor, proceed to give Victor and Archemorus 2 Utility skills each on your bar, Move Urn and Spear to F2 and F3 and create a new elite skill that is an attack performed by both legendary heroes together, like how they struck down Shiro together. So your elite truly show their ‘alliance’.

 

5. Or how about this: Make Vindicator the first spec that allows the Revenant to pick its skills for that legend, so you can pick if you want an Archemorus or a Saint Victor skill in a slot.

 

6. Something else: you only get endurance from F2 when used in a non-legendary alliance legend. Is that enough to make it appealing to use outside of Archemorus/Victor? Perhaps it could do something else based on the non legendary-alliance legend that you swap to? Just so you may also be tempted into using the skill when NOT channeling the legendary-alliance stance.

 

Possible issue with the Greatsword skills:

Not much, I feel like the greatsword is solid as an idea. An auto-attack chain that rewards finishing it (because the last hit does more damage if the tooltip is to be believed), two  hard hitting skills in greatsword 2 and 5, a gap closer and snare on 3 ( but I do not believe the tooltip that claims its 900 range, it’s not even half in reality), and a block on 4 with a follow-up/flip-over. So looking at what the skills do, it seems like a well-rounded kit.


Possible issue with the roles this legend may fill in PvE:

 

Role 1: DPS Vindicator:
Vindicator appears to get the option for mainly two roles, being a selfish DPS spec and a healer/supportive spec. With only Forerunner of Death being a 15% damage modifier and the conditional power from Empire Divided, the spec pretty much has to rely on the greatsword (which currently cannot be traited) to do the damage. I feel this is not going to be enough, especially with the damage on the legend skills being abysmal, even on the Archemorus elite. Even the best of the best players among us are having trouble getting above 30k on the golem. If under perfect circumstances and perfect boons, it is almost impossible to break the 30k barrier, something is wrong.  More damage is needed, either through greatsword buffs, or through traits with more/additional damage modifiers.

 

Another problem is the lack of CC the spec comes with for higher end PvE (I will probably mention this multiple times, because it is THAT important imo). The spec has 0 hard CC, 0, ZERO. Now a spec can get away with doing no cc at all if its busted in other aspects, like busted damage or busted utility/support. But if it has no CC but also no damage, it becomes a problem in a DPS position. And staff is not the answer, considering the big DPS loss that staff is, causing your damage to drop even further. 16 new legend skills. Zero with hard CC. Zero.

 

For the goal of DPS Vindicator to be achieved, the DPS numbers will need to find their way upwards through either raw damage on greatsword and Archemorus legend skills, or through trait modifications giving it additional damage modifiers or way to increase damage in other ways, currently this part of the spec is undertuned. And find a way to weave some hard CC into the spec so it does not need to rely on the staff. Staff can work on support renegade and perhaps support Saint Victor Vindicator, where DPS is not the main role or goal, but it will not work on a DPS Archemorus Vindicator. To me this problem is really glaring. I am sure there is a way to incorporate some pulls and/or stuns into the utility skills of these legends.

 

Role 2: Support/Heal Vindicator:
The heal/support part is in a better state numberswise, but has a major oversight: a healing spec in PvE does not merely get chosen for their raw healing power, but for the offensive buffs they can bring in either quickness+boons (FB), alacrity+boons+some heals(Renegade), quickness+heals (Scrapper, and this is fringe already), or heals+fury+massive might(druid). Rarely if ever is a healing spec brought for raw healing, even heal scourge offers some additional utility in for example teleport resurrection, another epidemic and some might. Vindicator right now pretty much only brings a bit of healing, some barrier and a bit of regeneration. This is not enough to compete where it matters, those places will still bring Firebrands/Renegades/Druids.

 

Vindicator needs its own healer niche, which means it either needs to bring some more offensive boons (something extremely good or it will never compete with alacrity renegades or quickness+boonspamming firebrands, hell it loses out to boonsupport Herald as it currently is), or it needs to go down the healscourge path and become a very powerful carry spec through heals, blocks, ressing and omega-barriers. Without massive buffs, this playstyle might be dead on arrival in PvE, and personally I do not want that to happen!


Possible issue with the artwork of skills and traits:  

Like most of the EoD icons so far, I feel they are missing details and polish. There is a very clear difference between EoD skill/trait icons, and the basegame/HoT/PoF ones.

 

Proposal:
Do another pass over the icons so they won’t look as out of place as they currently do when compared to their basegame/HoT/PoF counterparts.


Possible issues with Utility skills:


Archemorus:
Most of Archemorus his skills are supposed to feel aggressive, but in reality aren't very damaging and very situational. It’s obvious they felt a bit afraid to make the abilities OP because you get 2 new legends instead of 1.

Example: Spear of Archemorus is a 2000 range intercontinental ballistic missile...that hits like a wet noodle. For something that looks so amazing, the damage is pitiful. Please up the damage on it, by a lot.


 I feel like this half of the legend could also use some harder crowd control options, right now Vindicator lacks that a lot. Archemorus was a Luxon, and a big part of Luxon Culture was the Convocation and the hunt on Zhu Hanaku the Kraken. Perhaps we could see some of this Kraken power in this legend, perhaps a tendril pull or other type of CC ( icing on the cake would be if it has better or different effects/buffs based on certain conditions)?

 

Overall this stance could use some more unique stuff, some things feel like it’s copy-pasted from the Shiro legend with minimal changes. As it stands, there is very little reason to use the skills this legend comes with. Even worse, the best damage right now seems to come from ignoring this legend entirely and just play with Jalis and Shiro. Please, make me want to use the legend skills! Make them menacing, make them cool, make them do cool things!


Saint Victor:
Healing feels like stepping hard on the toes of both Renegade and Ventari. Either it can do better heals than Renegade/Ventari, only to still get sidelined because you bring no alacrity to the group, or it cannot do better heals and will never be seriously played because Ren/Ventari does it better. I Feel Saint Victor should get a niche of its own (preferably in a way so that it is not hard-chained to Ventari), perhaps with less emphasis on raw heals, and some more on short duration aegis and notably barrier applications, with how Shield of Saint Victor in GW1 was basically a massive barrier drop. The grandmaster giving heals+barrier on dodge already toys with this idea (and I think that is a great trait), I feel the entire Victor line could make use of that philosophy. You could then maybe make it give some of the buffs/boons high end PvE likes so much through traits enhancing barrier or aegis application.

 

I honestly have trouble wrapping my head around the complete lack of aegis here.
The entire Saint Victor line is lacking any form of the boon, and that for a guy who was pretty much the Canthan version of the Shield Hero. This legend could really use it. Tree song is mostly fine, but won’t do much unless you party drowns in conditions (but I suppose the evade on it is nice). Perhaps it could actually spawn a tree that for a period of time gives out some boons on an interval? Or some barrier build-up? Or perhaps this could could spawn a shielding Juggernaut/image of the Zu Heltzer Cathedral with relevant buffing?  Awakening would be nice if it shared some stability with allies as well I think.

Urn of Saint Victor functions mechanically, but it might just be the worst elite in the entire game in its current form. I cannot heal myself, I damage myself, drain all my energy, for hardly worthwile effects.


 I also feel it’s a missed opportunity to bring back the functionality of one of Cantha’s most iconic skills. In the original GW1 the ‘Shield of Saint Victor’ spawned a massive damage absorbing shield, so I am surprised this skill pulses healing while damaging yourself. Why not give out a massive barrier (like a fat 15k barrier with high healing power) with initial aegis/projectile block/attack block? This is a healing legend that is in dire need of a niche.

 

Issues with Vindicator traits:


Amnesty of Shing Jea:
Both of the effects feel underwhelming to me, simply because both a small jolt of regeneration or a single might stack won’t achieve much, especially on a playing field where some specs can put out 15-25 might on their own in addition to other boons and heals. I do think that a form of boonshare is the right way however.

 

Proposal:

Why not give Kurzick skills self-quickness or fury and allow it to share any boons it applies to itself with Kurzick skills to allies? If you then rebalance some of the boons on the Archemorus kit it might become worthwile to at least use them in groups.  Luxon ones can maybe either apply a short duration aegis or some barrier or maybe resolution for synergy with invocation, with perhaps later traits capitalising on this?

 

Leviathan's Strength:
I feel this is a mandatory trait in order to get around the clunkyness of the flip-over mechanic. This should honestly be an F3 skill as described in the mechanic section, and not a trait.
Rework this into an F3 skill and use this space for something else, the current mechanic of legend-flipping makes this trait 100% mandatory if you wish to enjoy the spec and not get frustrated.

 

Redemptor's Sermon:
I see little reason to take this in PvE on the DPS side of things, meaning this is mostly a support Vindicator trait. But...there is no reliable way of triggering this outside of camping Saint Victor’s Urn and praying something lightly taps you. You could argue that this is meant as an “OSHT” type of skill to go off and save your kitten when you get caught with your pants down, but I personally never found these type of traits very engaging, and there is a reason we rarely if ever see them around anymore.

 

Proposal: 

Rework so the effect can be reliably triggered in a way that does not involve camping Victor’s urn and praying for a foe to hit you with a light attack. Being reliant on randomly getting hit promotes bad plays and is not what I would consider a very attractive design.

 

Balance in Discord:
When you use Alliance Tactics (20-40 CD) or swap legends (10 CD) get a base 1.1k heal + 6 secs of regen worth a base of 780, meaning its a ~1.8k heal on roughly a 10 second cooldown ( the cooldown on legend swap). I suppose it will help a bit with staying power in combat, considering revenants will typically cycle through their legends on cooldown, but it’s not really that strong.

 

Perhaps keep this functionality for when Saint Victor is active/swapped to, and think of a 2nd type of effect for when Archemorus is active/swapped to? Perhaps Archemorus could do an offensive action or get some offensive boons?

 

Angsiyan’s Trust, Reaver’s Curse and Song of Arboreum:
Song of Arboreum is without a doubt the best endurance trait out of the three, it’s so superior there is almost zero reason to run the others as far as I can see in PvE. These three traits are essentially trying to solve a problem the devs created by giving the Vindicator only a single dodge, but only one of these options really feels as if it makes a difference. Both Reaver’s Curse and Angsiyan’s Trust are hilariously underpowered in comparison and it might be better to scrap them in favour of something else.

 

Some Proposals:

Perhaps this would be a good place for a greatsword trait? The spec could really use an additional damage modifier, so perhaps something like how on a greatsword-attack crit you summon the heads of the Luxon clans who try to copy that critical attack on your target after a delay? Tie a cooldown to it and you have a proc to dance and plan around while increasing the damage when used on the right skills.

 

Or maybe a trait that procs on crowd control  you inflict for damage and/or a damage buff? That could go in tandem with perhaps adding some cc to the Archemorus side of things, to solve the lack of CC it currently has.

This way you might solve the issue of Arboreum completely making the other two traits in its line look like thrash, and it might give people incentive to actually use some of the legend skills that give endurance based on foes hit (because they might be swayed into picking another DPS trait, meaning endurance has to come from somewhere else).


Empire Divided:
This truly is a punch in the gut of the Willbender. Willbender having to pick either power or healing power as an adept and needing to give up something substantial as well, and Vindicator getting both for almost free?

 

Proposal:

Maybe tie the stats to something else but health thresholds, because it would mean a support Saint Victor has to be permanently below 50% health to get any benefit from this, while having obviously a lot less use for the bonus power when above that threshold. The only way you are going to reliably get there is by channeling Saint Victor’s Urn for a prolonged period of time, meaning this part of this trait pretty much has the same problem as Redemptor’s Sermon: It completely hinges on camping the urn skill or praying you get pinged with a mild hit, which is a pretty passive way of doing things.

Should Anet decide to go with the idea of seperating Archemorus/Saint Victor into seperate legends that F2 switches between the solution is as simple as tying the stats to the channeling of the relevant legend, with possibly reduced bonuses of both stats when channeling a non legendary-alliance legend.


Forerunner of Death:
And there is our damageboost. Pretty much our only damageboost. 15% for 15 seconds, while doing damage on impact. I am mostly fine with this as an idea, but I do wonder how gamebreaking it would be to add a small daze component to it in addition to the damage and vulnerability when landing. Just to give it that ‘superman feeling’ and your opponents standing their shocked as you make the dramatic entrance. Would once again also solve some of the CC problem.  I would also keep an eye on the PvE damage so it’s not to low, because it would be a shame if the dodge, even with the 15% modifier, happens to not be enough, which is how it is currently looking.

 

The damage buff is not enough and the animation simply takes longer than needed. Perhaps the Vindicator could land/end the animation earlier, but keep some evade frames after landing?  The idea for this trait isn’t bad, but the execution of that idea is currently either lacking or not strong enough.


Saint of Zu Heltzer:
I really like this trait. It changes things, it has healing but more importantly barrier, while also reducing endurance costs required for its use. Combined with vigor and endurance management from the rest of the spec this could make for a very dodge-heavy healer and I really like that idea, it dares to be different, and the 20% healing bonus is the cherry on top. Only thing I would consider is making this 10 targets in PvE, just so it is on par with the target-cap of other supports. Very good trait imo, just not good enough to carry a support/heal Vindicator spec all on its own.

 

Vassals of the Empire:
Yeah...I have a bit of a problem with this one. Damage is going to pick Forerunner of Death, support and healers are probably going with Saint of zu Heltzer (or at least try to), so why would you pick Vassals of the Empire? For 10 might and protection? Both boons you can get from a support Renegade that isn’t sacrificing much? For the 2 second boon extension? Remember when Tempest got that boon extension with Sand Squall and how we all used it? Neither do I.  

 

In my opinion this trait could use an additional pass by the devs, because it seems like the other two completely overshadow it in most situations I could think off. Perhaps make it give out fury as well so you can maintain protection, fury and decent might stacks with the dodge. If Vindicator then gets a modifier aside from Forerunner of Death for damage this trait might become barely viable as a might/fury provider with some more side boons, but only very very bottom of the barrel barely ( It would feel a bit like maybe the old Phalanx Strength Warrior, which has been mostly absolete for a long time). The lack of a distinct boon/buff exclusively for Vindicator to give out hurts. It’s not like this trait is total trash, don’t get me wrong. But the other two options have way more distinct roles/purposes and give way stronger/better effects. I just can’t think off a situation where this would be better than either Forerunner of Death or Saint of zu Heltzer.


Closing statement

Vindicator is a daring spec that really tries to shake things up for the revenant. And despite some things like the flip-over and F mechanic feeling clunky to me, the undertuned damage and support options and some traits needing work, I feel like this has potential to be a cool spec with interesting gameplay options. I think Vindicator’s most pressing issues are fixable by Anet, but it depends on how much they are willing to invest.

DPS is fixeable by just adjusting a few numbers, but fixing some of the bigger issues like traits and legend skills would take a lot of work...I am unsure if Anet is willing to do that and if they are, how much time they would need to come up with alternatives.

 

If inspiration is an issue I hope Anet feels free to perhaps grab a bit of mild inspiration from my own interpretation of a Saint Victor/Archemorus dual spec:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/izlkld/presenting_my_concept_for_a_canthan_revenant_spec/

 

There are already some similarities, so I wouldn’t mind if something I did there inspires Anet to think off some fixes for Vindicator its current issues. I know how hard it is sometimes to come up with a fix for an issue when you are closely involved in a project, a new outlook often helps with getting inspiration (that’s what works for me at least, perhaps it can work for Anet as well!). Not saying it’s better, but it’s different, and sometimes seeing a different take helps.

Thanks for reading!

 

 

 

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Not a rev player but I will add my two cents here. The spec looks cool, the animations are fun and I love the idea. However, rev already struggles with agency and juggling basically three legends one of which gets in the way of the another is painful. The lack of benefits on the f2 is just disappointing and alot of the traits have me asking why would I ever choose this. Compared to bladesworn who has traits that I can clearly understand the reasoning for and what you get out of each of them, this feels half baked. Particularly on the viktor side which tries to be supportive but ultimately is less effective as a support than ventari. Renegade added the f3 and f4 skills to rev and I am honestly surprised vindi didn't continue that trend. Vindi has a cool gimmick and I think it could be good but I can't tell what it wants to do beyond jump and right now it may as well jump off my screen cuz I have no interest in playing a class that doesn't know what it wants to do. 

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17 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

Introduction

I hereby present my feedback on the Vindicator elite spec for the Revenant class. I will divide my feedback into several sections and will try to look at things from mainly a PvE perspective. Vindicator was the spec that hyped me the most out of the three newest beta elite specs. I really loved the idea of getting two legends to toy with, and that dramatic dodge looked awesome! But after playing it for quite a bit (as far one can say this in a Beta event), I am afraid the spec has a lot of issues that completely kill both its DPS and support potential.


The PvE DPS numbers:

Unfortunately the thing is that the Vindicator as a whole is dramatically undertuned for damage. Greatsword is only a part of this issue. Both it and traits need help to get the damage to a good level. Even the best of the best players among us are having trouble getting above 30k on the golem. If under perfect circumstances and perfect boons, it is almost impossible to break the 30k damage barrier, something is wrong.  More damage is needed, either through greatsword buffs, or through traits with more/additional damage modifiers. The fact that the damage on the legend skills (even the spear elite) is quite low doesnt help either.

 

Possible issue with the theme:

None to be honest, none. It feels fitting to get the legends of two of Cantha’s greatest heroes in our new spec, I don’t think there would be a better suited choice for me personally. I know that Archemorus and Saint Victor aren’t everyone’s first choice ( I have seen suggestions for a Naga legend, a Tengu legend, Master Togo, an ancient evil mage legend, Vizu or Nika, even Razah at one point), but at least they are influential figures in Canthan lore.

 

 

Possible issue with the mechanic:

The Flip over nature of the legend skills feel clunky, you don’t have access to what you want when you need it, and the shared cooldowns don’t help either. The current F2 skill could also use some additional/other functionality or a split into different skills. It really hurts that I come to this conclusion, because on paper this flip-over system is a highly creative one that was guaranteed to add a new flavour to the revenant playstyle. But after trying it extensively, the only conclusion I am able to reach is that it is a mechanic that does not work as well as I hoped it would.

 

Some proposals:

1. I am wondering if it wouldn’t be better to just separate the two legends and switch between Archemorus/Victor with F2, while switching to a non legendary-alliance legend with F1. I understand that would hurt the uniqueness, but at least it would work and not frustrate the player.
 
2. In addition the current F2 skill feels harsh when it comes to flipping skills, essentially adding a big energy cost to the first skill you want to use from the other half of your alliance (you are pretty much forced into the trait for this if you want to be able to somewhat reliably access your skills).

 

3. If the suggestion to split the two into seperate legends doesnt work, I feel this F2 needs to be split into an F2 and an F3, with F2 trading energy for endurance, and F3 flipping/resetting the legend skills, with adjusted costs and recharges (meaning you roll the Leviathan Strength trait into an F3 skill). Because currently you will often find yourself stuck with skills from a legend you don’t want, or use something to get to the legend you need only to have the thing you want on cooldown. I appreciate the flavor/idea, but I currently feel it is holding the spec back.

 

4. Another suggestion: Combine the two legends in one skillbar. Make the heal skill Saint Victor, proceed to give Victor and Archemorus 2 Utility skills each on your bar, Move Urn and Spear to F2 and F3 and create a new elite skill that is an attack performed by both legendary heroes together, like how they struck down Shiro together. So your elite truly show their ‘alliance’.

 

5. Or how about this: Make Vindicator the first spec that allows the Revenant to pick its skills for that legend, so you can pick if you want an Archemorus or a Saint Victor skill in a slot.

 

6. Something else: you only get endurance from F2 when used in a non-legendary alliance legend. Is that enough to make it appealing to use outside of Archemorus/Victor? Perhaps it could do something else based on the non legendary-alliance legend that you swap to? Just so you may also be tempted into using the skill when NOT channeling the legendary-alliance stance.

 

Possible issue with the Greatsword skills:

Not much, I feel like the greatsword is solid as an idea. An auto-attack chain that rewards finishing it (because the last hit does more damage if the tooltip is to be believed), two  hard hitting skills in greatsword 2 and 5, a gap closer and snare on 3 ( but I do not believe the tooltip that claims its 900 range, it’s not even half in reality), and a block on 4 with a follow-up/flip-over. So looking at what the skills do, it seems like a well-rounded kit.


Possible issue with the roles this legend may fill in PvE:

 

Role 1: DPS Vindicator:
Vindicator appears to get the option for mainly two roles, being a selfish DPS spec and a healer/supportive spec. With only Forerunner of Death being a 15% damage modifier and the conditional power from Empire Divided, the spec pretty much has to rely on the greatsword (which currently cannot be traited) to do the damage. I feel this is not going to be enough, especially with the damage on the legend skills being abysmal, even on the Archemorus elite. Even the best of the best players among us are having trouble getting above 30k on the golem. If under perfect circumstances and perfect boons, it is almost impossible to break the 30k barrier, something is wrong.  More damage is needed, either through greatsword buffs, or through traits with more/additional damage modifiers.

 

Another problem is the lack of CC the spec comes with for higher end PvE (I will probably mention this multiple times, because it is THAT important imo). The spec has 0 hard CC, 0, ZERO. Now a spec can get away with doing no cc at all if its busted in other aspects, like busted damage or busted utility/support. But if it has no CC but also no damage, it becomes a problem in a DPS position. And staff is not the answer, considering the big DPS loss that staff is, causing your damage to drop even further. 16 new legend skills. Zero with hard CC. Zero.

 

For the goal of DPS Vindicator to be achieved, the DPS numbers will need to find their way upwards through either raw damage on greatsword and Archemorus legend skills, or through trait modifications giving it additional damage modifiers or way to increase damage in other ways, currently this part of the spec is undertuned. And find a way to weave some hard CC into the spec so it does not need to rely on the staff. Staff can work on support renegade and perhaps support Saint Victor Vindicator, where DPS is not the main role or goal, but it will not work on a DPS Archemorus Vindicator. To me this problem is really glaring. I am sure there is a way to incorporate some pulls and/or stuns into the utility skills of these legends.

 

Role 2: Support/Heal Vindicator:
The heal/support part is in a better state numberswise, but has a major oversight: a healing spec in PvE does not merely get chosen for their raw healing power, but for the offensive buffs they can bring in either quickness+boons (FB), alacrity+boons+some heals(Renegade), quickness+heals (Scrapper, and this is fringe already), or heals+fury+massive might(druid). Rarely if ever is a healing spec brought for raw healing, even heal scourge offers some additional utility in for example teleport resurrection, another epidemic and some might. Vindicator right now pretty much only brings a bit of healing, some barrier and a bit of regeneration. This is not enough to compete where it matters, those places will still bring Firebrands/Renegades/Druids.

 

Vindicator needs its own healer niche, which means it either needs to bring some more offensive boons (something extremely good or it will never compete with alacrity renegades or quickness+boonspamming firebrands, hell it loses out to boonsupport Herald as it currently is), or it needs to go down the healscourge path and become a very powerful carry spec through heals, blocks, ressing and omega-barriers. Without massive buffs, this playstyle might be dead on arrival in PvE, and personally I do not want that to happen!


Possible issue with the artwork of skills and traits:  

Like most of the EoD icons so far, I feel they are missing details and polish. There is a very clear difference between EoD skill/trait icons, and the basegame/HoT/PoF ones.

 

Proposal:
Do another pass over the icons so they won’t look as out of place as they currently do when compared to their basegame/HoT/PoF counterparts.


Possible issues with Utility skills:


Archemorus:
Most of Archemorus his skills are supposed to feel aggressive, but in reality aren't very damaging and very situational. It’s obvious they felt a bit afraid to make the abilities OP because you get 2 new legends instead of 1.

Example: Spear of Archemorus is a 2000 range intercontinental ballistic missile...that hits like a wet noodle. For something that looks so amazing, the damage is pitiful. Please up the damage on it, by a lot.


 I feel like this half of the legend could also use some harder crowd control options, right now Vindicator lacks that a lot. Archemorus was a Luxon, and a big part of Luxon Culture was the Convocation and the hunt on Zhu Hanaku the Kraken. Perhaps we could see some of this Kraken power in this legend, perhaps a tendril pull or other type of CC ( icing on the cake would be if it has better or different effects/buffs based on certain conditions)?

 

Overall this stance could use some more unique stuff, some things feel like it’s copy-pasted from the Shiro legend with minimal changes. As it stands, there is very little reason to use the skills this legend comes with. Even worse, the best damage right now seems to come from ignoring this legend entirely and just play with Jalis and Shiro. Please, make me want to use the legend skills! Make them menacing, make them cool, make them do cool things!


Saint Victor:
Healing feels like stepping hard on the toes of both Renegade and Ventari. Either it can do better heals than Renegade/Ventari, only to still get sidelined because you bring no alacrity to the group, or it cannot do better heals and will never be seriously played because Ren/Ventari does it better. I Feel Saint Victor should get a niche of its own (preferably in a way so that it is not hard-chained to Ventari), perhaps with less emphasis on raw heals, and some more on short duration aegis and notably barrier applications, with how Shield of Saint Victor in GW1 was basically a massive barrier drop. The grandmaster giving heals+barrier on dodge already toys with this idea (and I think that is a great trait), I feel the entire Victor line could make use of that philosophy. You could then maybe make it give some of the buffs/boons high end PvE likes so much through traits enhancing barrier or aegis application.

 

I honestly have trouble wrapping my head around the complete lack of aegis here.
The entire Saint Victor line is lacking any form of the boon, and that for a guy who was pretty much the Canthan version of the Shield Hero. This legend could really use it. Tree song is mostly fine, but won’t do much unless you party drowns in conditions (but I suppose the evade on it is nice). Perhaps it could actually spawn a tree that for a period of time gives out some boons on an interval? Or some barrier build-up? Or perhaps this could could spawn a shielding Juggernaut/image of the Zu Heltzer Cathedral with relevant buffing?  Awakening would be nice if it shared some stability with allies as well I think.

Urn of Saint Victor functions mechanically, but it might just be the worst elite in the entire game in its current form. I cannot heal myself, I damage myself, drain all my energy, for hardly worthwile effects.


 I also feel it’s a missed opportunity to bring back the functionality of one of Cantha’s most iconic skills. In the original GW1 the ‘Shield of Saint Victor’ spawned a massive damage absorbing shield, so I am surprised this skill pulses healing while damaging yourself. Why not give out a massive barrier (like a fat 15k barrier with high healing power) with initial aegis/projectile block/attack block? This is a healing legend that is in dire need of a niche.

 

Issues with Vindicator traits:


Amnesty of Shing Jea:
Both of the effects feel underwhelming to me, simply because both a small jolt of regeneration or a single might stack won’t achieve much, especially on a playing field where some specs can put out 15-25 might on their own in addition to other boons and heals. I do think that a form of boonshare is the right way however.

 

Proposal:

Why not give Kurzick skills self-quickness or fury and allow it to share any boons it applies to itself with Kurzick skills to allies? If you then rebalance some of the boons on the Archemorus kit it might become worthwile to at least use them in groups.  Luxon ones can maybe either apply a short duration aegis or some barrier or maybe resolution for synergy with invocation, with perhaps later traits capitalising on this?

 

Leviathan's Strength:
I feel this is a mandatory trait in order to get around the clunkyness of the flip-over mechanic. This should honestly be an F3 skill as described in the mechanic section, and not a trait.
Rework this into an F3 skill and use this space for something else, the current mechanic of legend-flipping makes this trait 100% mandatory if you wish to enjoy the spec and not get frustrated.

 

Redemptor's Sermon:
I see little reason to take this in PvE on the DPS side of things, meaning this is mostly a support Vindicator trait. But...there is no reliable way of triggering this outside of camping Saint Victor’s Urn and praying something lightly taps you. You could argue that this is meant as an “OSHT” type of skill to go off and save your kitten when you get caught with your pants down, but I personally never found these type of traits very engaging, and there is a reason we rarely if ever see them around anymore.

 

Proposal: 

Rework so the effect can be reliably triggered in a way that does not involve camping Victor’s urn and praying for a foe to hit you with a light attack. Being reliant on randomly getting hit promotes bad plays and is not what I would consider a very attractive design.

 

Balance in Discord:
When you use Alliance Tactics (20-40 CD) or swap legends (10 CD) get a base 1.1k heal + 6 secs of regen worth a base of 780, meaning its a ~1.8k heal on roughly a 10 second cooldown ( the cooldown on legend swap). I suppose it will help a bit with staying power in combat, considering revenants will typically cycle through their legends on cooldown, but it’s not really that strong.

 

Perhaps keep this functionality for when Saint Victor is active/swapped to, and think of a 2nd type of effect for when Archemorus is active/swapped to? Perhaps Archemorus could do an offensive action or get some offensive boons?

 

Angsiyan’s Trust, Reaver’s Curse and Song of Arboreum:
Song of Arboreum is without a doubt the best endurance trait out of the three, it’s so superior there is almost zero reason to run the others as far as I can see in PvE. These three traits are essentially trying to solve a problem the devs created by giving the Vindicator only a single dodge, but only one of these options really feels as if it makes a difference. Both Reaver’s Curse and Angsiyan’s Trust are hilariously underpowered in comparison and it might be better to scrap them in favour of something else.

 

Some Proposals:

Perhaps this would be a good place for a greatsword trait? The spec could really use an additional damage modifier, so perhaps something like how on a greatsword-attack crit you summon the heads of the Luxon clans who try to copy that critical attack on your target after a delay? Tie a cooldown to it and you have a proc to dance and plan around while increasing the damage when used on the right skills.

 

Or maybe a trait that procs on crowd control  you inflict for damage and/or a damage buff? That could go in tandem with perhaps adding some cc to the Archemorus side of things, to solve the lack of CC it currently has.

This way you might solve the issue of Arboreum completely making the other two traits in its line look like thrash, and it might give people incentive to actually use some of the legend skills that give endurance based on foes hit (because they might be swayed into picking another DPS trait, meaning endurance has to come from somewhere else).


Empire Divided:
This truly is a punch in the gut of the Willbender. Willbender having to pick either power or healing power as an adept and needing to give up something substantial as well, and Vindicator getting both for almost free?

 

Proposal:

Maybe tie the stats to something else but health thresholds, because it would mean a support Saint Victor has to be permanently below 50% health to get any benefit from this, while having obviously a lot less use for the bonus power when above that threshold. The only way you are going to reliably get there is by channeling Saint Victor’s Urn for a prolonged period of time, meaning this part of this trait pretty much has the same problem as Redemptor’s Sermon: It completely hinges on camping the urn skill or praying you get pinged with a mild hit, which is a pretty passive way of doing things.

Should Anet decide to go with the idea of seperating Archemorus/Saint Victor into seperate legends that F2 switches between the solution is as simple as tying the stats to the channeling of the relevant legend, with possibly reduced bonuses of both stats when channeling a non legendary-alliance legend.


Forerunner of Death:
And there is our damageboost. Pretty much our only damageboost. 15% for 15 seconds, while doing damage on impact. I am mostly fine with this as an idea, but I do wonder how gamebreaking it would be to add a small daze component to it in addition to the damage and vulnerability when landing. Just to give it that ‘superman feeling’ and your opponents standing their shocked as you make the dramatic entrance. Would once again also solve some of the CC problem.  I would also keep an eye on the PvE damage so it’s not to low, because it would be a shame if the dodge, even with the 15% modifier, happens to not be enough, which is how it is currently looking.

 

The damage buff is not enough and the animation simply takes longer than needed. Perhaps the Vindicator could land/end the animation earlier, but keep some evade frames after landing?  The idea for this trait isn’t bad, but the execution of that idea is currently either lacking or not strong enough.


Saint of Zu Heltzer:
I really like this trait. It changes things, it has healing but more importantly barrier, while also reducing endurance costs required for its use. Combined with vigor and endurance management from the rest of the spec this could make for a very dodge-heavy healer and I really like that idea, it dares to be different, and the 20% healing bonus is the cherry on top. Only thing I would consider is making this 10 targets in PvE, just so it is on par with the target-cap of other supports. Very good trait imo, just not good enough to carry a support/heal Vindicator spec all on its own.

 

Vassals of the Empire:
Yeah...I have a bit of a problem with this one. Damage is going to pick Forerunner of Death, support and healers are probably going with Saint of zu Heltzer (or at least try to), so why would you pick Vassals of the Empire? For 10 might and protection? Both boons you can get from a support Renegade that isn’t sacrificing much? For the 2 second boon extension? Remember when Tempest got that boon extension with Sand Squall and how we all used it? Neither do I.  

 

In my opinion this trait could use an additional pass by the devs, because it seems like the other two completely overshadow it in most situations I could think off. Perhaps make it give out fury as well so you can maintain protection, fury and decent might stacks with the dodge. If Vindicator then gets a modifier aside from Forerunner of Death for damage this trait might become barely viable as a might/fury provider with some more side boons, but only very very bottom of the barrel barely ( It would feel a bit like maybe the old Phalanx Strength Warrior, which has been mostly absolete for a long time). The lack of a distinct boon/buff exclusively for Vindicator to give out hurts. It’s not like this trait is total trash, don’t get me wrong. But the other two options have way more distinct roles/purposes and give way stronger/better effects. I just can’t think off a situation where this would be better than either Forerunner of Death or Saint of zu Heltzer.


Closing statement

Vindicator is a daring spec that really tries to shake things up for the revenant. And despite some things like the flip-over and F mechanic feeling clunky to me, the undertuned damage and support options and some traits needing work, I feel like this has potential to be a cool spec with interesting gameplay options. I think Vindicator’s most pressing issues are fixable by Anet, but it depends on how much they are willing to invest.

DPS is fixeable by just adjusting a few numbers, but fixing some of the bigger issues like traits and legend skills would take a lot of work...I am unsure if Anet is willing to do that and if they are, how much time they would need to come up with alternatives.

 

If inspiration is an issue I hope Anet feels free to perhaps grab a bit of mild inspiration from my own interpretation of a Saint Victor/Archemorus dual spec:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/izlkld/presenting_my_concept_for_a_canthan_revenant_spec/

 

There are already some similarities, so I wouldn’t mind if something I did there inspires Anet to think off some fixes for Vindicator its current issues. I know how hard it is sometimes to come up with a fix for an issue when you are closely involved in a project, a new outlook often helps with getting inspiration (that’s what works for me at least, perhaps it can work for Anet as well!). Not saying it’s better, but it’s different, and sometimes seeing a different take helps.

Thanks for reading!

 

 

 

I will honestly say I didn't read all of this and mostly because this isn't for me. I am incredibly happy that someone, anyone would take this level of effort when giving feedback on anything. Even if I didn't agree with most of what I saw I would still give this a like because feedback like this is how developers get useful ideas and shows a level of respect for the class that I absolutely lack and therefore can't give. 

Edited by Alistair.9786
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I'll repost here what I posted on the subreddit:

As someone with ADHD, I hate the vindicator so far. Having two sets of skills, switching back and forth, and keeping track of so many things, all just ends up being a nightmare. Maybe I’m playing it wrong, but it’s just way too confusing and all-over-the-place for me. I do like the new dodge and the greatsword skills, though.

The lack of boons compared to Herald and Renegade is just a huge con, alongside the very confusing gameplay mechanics. You constantly need to look at your skill bar and remember the two sets of skills that have little to nothing to do with another (i.e. a Luxon skill has nothing to do with its Kurzick counterpart).

I like the greatsword skills, and the new dodge mechanic is kinda cool. However, the rest of the skills are just a nightmare to deal with in high-level PvE maps, especially if you're gonna do meta events.

I already know there'll be people who disagree with me on my feedback, and that's fine - I am sure it can work well for someone who can micro-manage this sort of play-style. I, on the other hand, can't. I'll be sticking with Renegade and Herald, personally.

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