Vindicator Feedback Thread

[Kidel.2057]

2 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

Basically permanent dodge is lacking?  What in the even is this nonsense I’m reading?

I doubt it's going to be permanent. They probably already tested it with max endurance buffs. If they didn't and for some reason it's exploitable, it's going to be nerfed. 

[Kidel.2057]

3 hours ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

Renegade already covers the endgame content needs tbh, we don't need another spec that provides that much (party lifesteal heals, alacrity, and high condi dps). What we need is a power spec with nice aoe and flexability and it seems we got it. 

I'd still love power builds to be viable in PvE. Also what's the niece for Herald now? GS is cool and all, but Herald has one of the coolest designs in the game. I hope it doesn't die since it's also a power spec (and power specs are already dying).

I hate that Renegade is ALSO the best support spec, despite Herald being designed as a boon support spec.  

Edited September 18, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Fueki.4753]

Vindicator is an utter disappointment for me, too.

It got yet another power melee Greatsword, which sucks.

It takes two broken skills from other professions ans fixes them, while Arenanet leaves the original skills broken as they are.

The Legend is missing a third. Vizu is at least equally as important as those two were, arguably even more important. Yet she's entirely absent.

The flip over skills are just bad. There isn't even a trait to split them into two distinct legends for people who only want to play with one half.

Alliance Tactics literally does nothing for people who choose two core Legends.

The traits are unappealling across the board.

 

I'll stick with Renegade.

[Shao.7236]

@Fueki.4753 If anything, all of it could have been done under a different coat of paint.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

43 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

 

The flip over skills are just bad. There isn't even a trait to split them into two distinct legends for people who only want to play with one half.

 

 

 

Bad? How? I just don't see it. Literally all of the flipover skills are good, even for a DPS spec. Unless of course you are speaking in terms of PvE DPS, but at that point it's so easy to dismiss the majority of the skills in the game. You have...

- An additional stunbreak that has a 15 energy cost. That is insanely cheap. The flipover skill will be really great in teamfights. Group stunbreaks are very underrated. 

- A 5-condition cleanse that under optimal circumstances can give you as much as 60 endurance back. If the character has no healing power, the healing per condition removed is amazing. 

- A 15-energy Riposting Shadows-esque evade. 

- On-demand instant damage and condition damage reduction. It is likely that you can use it while CC'd, meaning you can misplay and still deny a huge amount of incoming burst damage.

 

Don't be deceived by the healing synergies on the e-spec; Saint Viktor still has wonderful potential for any build. Between greatsword and the legend, this spec is aimed at being a teamfighter and has a very inherent versatility in it. It's like a little mix of all the different legends in one. 

 

Idk...my hype level is like 100x higher than it was for Renegade. I see so much potential with this spec. Not saying it's perfect but it seems like it will really raise the skill ceiling for the class and allow for some really amazing and fun plays. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Za Shaloc.3908

[Nephalem.8921]

10 hours ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Except the same applies in those as well. Raids are hard to say, as we will need numbers. But Vindicator will be good in fractals. I bet my 9 years of experience in the game over that. Boons, barriers, aoe damage, long evade frames, synergy with hitting allies/enemies with the dodge. This is staff mirage on steriods. Get 2 greatsword. Get the sigil that gives you 50% endurance on weapon swap and the sigil that fills your endurance on kill. Get them on both GS. Enjoy spending 75% of fight in fractals in evade frame while doing damage, providing boons and barrier, cleansing conditions.

In t1 maybe. You will dps race the healer with this setup. Dodge duration doesnt seem to scale with quickness and takes eternities, the utils suck. a bunch of low duration selfish boons and no dmg, great.

Perfect for an open world zerg, exactly what rev needed.

[Fueki.4753]

51 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

Bad? How? I just don't see it.

The problem with the flip skills is, you have to take both Archemorus and Viktor.

You can't simply choose one or choose a trait that splits them into two different legends.

I doubt I'm the only who would prefer to play with only one half.

I know that being forced into both is the point of them, but that's why it's bad in my opinion.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Za Shaloc.3908]

53 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

The problem with the flip skills is, you have to take both Archemorus and Viktor.

You can't simply choose one or choose a trait that splits them into two different legends.

I doubt I'm the only who would prefer to play with only one half.

I know that being forced into both is the point of them, but that's why it's bad in my opinion.

 

Yeah, it definitely has the potential to be clunky. I am interested in playing a support build with this so the idea of having to press the Archemorus skills in order to get to the SV ones could prove to be awkward, but I would like to try it first to see how it actually feels. A lot of the 6-9 skills are lower energy cost so I am curious to see how it will play in game. F2 may be enough to solve this, but we'll see. I'm excited to test its limits/potential.

[Parthenos Polias.5683]

Very bored by the greatsword.

 

There is no imagination, nothing new about it, nothing that feels Revenant.
I guess it quite logic considering we are channelling a common swordsmen legend. So we get a common greatsword set of skills.

 

1st skill is basically, swing, swing, cleave : very cliché, it could be the same animation for warrior, guardian and ranger.

2nd skill is cone aoe while swinging sword : again, warrior has hundred blade, guardian has symbol of resolution, ranger has maul, so nothing really creative there.

3rd skill is the dash : it feels mandatory cause warrior, guardian and ranger have one.

4th skill is Ranger block : it looks like it's the same animation they just added a light effect on it.

 

5th skill is "yeah ! whirling the sword !" : again, nothing new with the animation, just a guy whirling his sword like warrior does it or guardian does it or reaper does it. Except they though to add a Whirl finished effect for those 3 where as the vindicator doesn't get it.

 

It's a very common set on skill for a greatsword. It doesn't feel like an elite specialization.
Yes it fills the need for cleave ; but they did a better job with the reaper, creating something more unique with the greatsword.

[Kidel.2057]

3 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Vindicator is an utter disappointment for me, too.

It got yet another power melee Greatsword, which sucks.

It takes two broken skills from other professions ans fixes them, while Arenanet leaves the original skills broken as they are.

The Legend is missing a third. Vizu is at least equally as important as those two were, arguably even more important. Yet she's entirely absent.

The flip over skills are just bad. There isn't even a trait to split them into two distinct legends for people who only want to play with one half.

Alliance Tactics literally does nothing for people who choose two core Legends.

The traits are unappealling across the board.

 

I'll stick with Renegade.

I personally missed GS on Rev, coming from main Guardian before HoT. 

 

The point most people don't really get with Saint Viktor zu Heltzer and Archemorus with regards to Vizu is that:

1) The duo is honored by Kurzick and Luxon respectively and Vindicator is simply a class from those 2 cultures. It wouldn't make sense for every Vindicator to be able to channel a person they don't really care about. 

2) Vizu disarmed Shiro, Saint Viktor and Archemorus killed him. Agreed Vizu was very important (maybe even more than the other two) but an argument could be made in favour of the alliance to justify the flipover mechanic. 

 

Also you probably missed F2, because that's the way to play just one (or mainly one). I agree on the fact that it's crap if you have 2 core legends (or even 1 core legend, since you still need to swap to get energy). That has to be addressed. 

[Kidel.2057]

8 hours ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

Renegade already covers the endgame content needs tbh, we don't need another spec that provides that much (party lifesteal heals, alacrity, and high condi dps). What we need is a power spec with nice aoe and flexability and it seems we got it. 

How is this a valid point? Should I be forced to use Renegade to do any serious content and Herald for WvW Zerg? 

Herald and Vindicator should be completely viable for endgame. Especially since their gameplay is so much different from Renegade. 

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

From the one hand, I am glad we are finally getting a GS. From the other hand, it's kit makes me worried. There is only soft CC so far and 1 dodge just doesn't work unless you are Anet's favourite aka Mesmers. Even Berserker looks more viable for roaming and spvp than this new spec.
But yeah, maybe it's hooray for WvW zerging with party support and pve to some extent.

 

[Nephalem.8921]

9 hours ago, Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

From the one hand, I am glad we are finally getting a GS. From the other hand, it's kit makes me worried. There is only soft CC so far and 1 dodge just doesn't work unless you are Anet's favourite aka Mesmers. Even Berserker looks more viable for roaming and spvp than this new spec.
But yeah, maybe it's hooray for WvW zerging with party support and pve to some extent.

 

No cc is incredible bad in pve aswell. Would need busted dps to justify it in fractals. would just not bring it into most raid fights because of the lack of cc alone.

[Fire Attunement.9835]

Let us know what you think about the vindicator! What do you really like? What needs to be improved or adjusted?

Found a bug? Let us know in the bug thread.

[Jaykay.9641]

Initial impressions on design:

Trait and Mechanic Design

• F2 needs a different mechanic or addition. The ability just feels unrewarding when using outside Legendary Alliance. I feel almost punished for using it any other stance. Idea for change at the end of feedback.
• Adept traits are another feelsbad design moment outside of Alliance stance. There are 2 traits that directly affect Legendary Alliance stance and the only other option is a 90 sec ICD in PvP that will be mandatory if you don't want to use Legendary Stance.
• Balance in Discord is nice Legend swap idea but yet again, another benefit to ONLY Alliance stance? Why are we being punished for not using Legendary Stance?
• Song of Arboreum and Saint of zu Heltzer synergy is real. It will be lots of dodge with this combo and will be really good. Like a 5 sec CD between dodges.

IMO, the design of traits around Legendary Alliance is frustrating as a player. It limits customization and build crafting. Renegade has a meta PvP build with Jalis/Shiro and doesn't use Renegade stance. I think this is good design and should be a design goal for all professions.

F2 Mechanic Suggestion

Unexpected Alliance - F2 now grants 50 energy and 1 free Legend Swap without a cooldown. Using Unexpected Alliance while in Legendary Alliance Stance will instead flip utility skills.

• This will allow players to use Vindicator without Alliance stance by "flipping" Legends for free without cooldown similar to how it is now for Alliance stance. This will create some fun plays with the free legend swap.

Will probably have more feedback after some more testing in PvP.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Jaykay.9641

[phokus.8934]

Healing abilities need to be 5 energy and not 10.

Remove the animation locking after dodging.

[Obtena.7952]

I got a BIG issue with Leviathan Strength ... it's ONLY a downside if you go outside using Alliance Legend. That's got to be fixed IMO.

I also think the emphasis on dodging in the Alliance traitline is too high. 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Brunnsteinangel.2568]

I first want to say, that I like the ideas of the Vindicator. The dodge and flip-overlegend is great. 
But the spec feels bland and boring and IMO it is due to the lack of an overall theme. 

Basic boring GS with the same DMG rota sword has, 2/3 of the traits are just for dodging... 
There are great ideas, but the execution is bad. 

That is what I want to change by “salvaging” as much as I can from the class and uniting it under a theme. 
This is not meant to be perfect or “finished” but should show, how to go forward with this e-spec and how to unlock ist potential. 

 

Lets start the theme and legend: 
We change the name to “Seeker”, giving it an exploration touch and the Legend will be the “Legendary Sailor Stance”. 

Who our new legend is? Some famous, legendary sailor or ship captain. Anet can just make someone up. 

With this said, will give your new “Seeker” an ocean and sailing theme. 

 

Before we head into my changes, I want to say that I don’t go into number and stuff, and if I do, it is jsut an example. 
I want to focus on the overall “design” instead. 

 

Let us start with the weapon then: 

 

GREATSWORD 

AA Chain: Rolling mists / raging mists / crushing mists 

We make the chain 300 range, “wave attacks”. 
Each attack getting stronger and buffing more and more might (like 1 stack 1. attack, then 2, then 3 stacks) 

 

Skill #2: mist sea 

Does less damage, gets a 450 range cone and the main “pay off” is a short slow effect on enemies hit. 

 

Skill #3: mist reaf 

Summons a raf of mist in a 400 range in front of you, does massive damage tick for 5 seconds => DPS skill 

 

Skill #4: High tide / low tide 

High tide is block that slowly moves forward 

Low tide is a pull CC skill 

 

Skill #5: Mist storm 

Same ability, though it becomes a 600 Range AOQ ground target skill. 
And the animation becomes the lvl up animation (raising GS with one hand in the air) 

  

 

Now for the legend. First thing: While still flip-over, you can choose either the “storm stance” or the “haven stance” which will determin what skills you start out with, once you swap to the legend, which should make it less clunky. 

 

LEGENDARY SAILOR STANCE SKILLS (Storm => Haven) 

Heal Skill: Carried by Storms => Healing Breeze 

Can pretty much stay as is. 

 

Utility Skill #1: Full Sail Ahead => Anchor Down 

Full Sail Ahead give quickness and swiftness to you and your group. 

Anchor Down provides stability instead and is a stun break 

 

Utility Skill #2: Mist Whirpool => Calm amidst the Storm 

Mist Whirpool is an AOE pull in CC (like Malyx) with you as the center 

Calm amidst the Storm heals allies around you and grants them barrier 

 

Utility Skill #3: Riding the Sotrm => Reorganizing the Fleet 

Riding the Storm is an upkeep skill the bufs the effect of might for you and your group 

Reorganizing the Fleet shares your boons with your allies and heals them for each boon shared. 

 

Elite Skill: Unstoppable Fleet => Shing Jea Haven 

Unsoppable Fleet is the Spear skill rethemed to fit 

Shing Jea Haven is a 10 pip upkeep that heals you and your allys, while reducing incoming damage and rezing downstate ppl. But you are immobile 

 

 

THE DODGE 

Stays the same, but now we “dive” instead of “leap”. 

 

Having 2/3 of your traits focusing on the dodge is to much, so I’m cutting it down a bit. 

 

 

TRAITS - SEEKER 

Adept Majors: Untamed Sea / Precise Diving / Calm Sea 

Untamed Sea converts ferocity into power 

Precise Diving: Dodging increases your crit chance for a short duration. 

Calm Sea removes conditions from alies/yourself when you applie barrier 

 

Minor Master: Benevolent sea 

Renamed but the trait remains the same 

 

Master Majors: Tidal Flow / Cleaving Wave / Pay the Crew 

Tidal flow: Using a Sailor Stance ability grants you damage increase/healing increase depending on which “side” of the stance you used. 

Cleaving Wave grants you power while using a GS 

Pay the Crew grants endurance to you and your allies each time you get a boon 

 

Minor Grandmaster: Unrelanting Sea 
This trait will give endurance for energy you spend. 
Conversion rate needs to be thought out, but it should work out. 

 

Grandmaster Majors: Oceans Grace / Storms Rage / Sailors Sanctum 

Oceans Grace is your heal&barrier dodge, no changes here. 

Storms rage becomes the “damage” dodge, but we cut down on the damage and instead give it a bit of stun, so it is a “set up” skill instead. 

Sailors Sanctum heals youself for a percentage while you dodge and grants protection dn and resolution after the dodge ended. 

 

 

 

F2 - ??? 

Something completly new and interessting that works well, even without using the Sailor stance. 
Though I struggle to find something right now. 

 

 

At the end I want to repeat that this is not a perfect solution or anythign like that, but I wanted to highlight, that we need a theme that will add more interessting traits and skills instead of the bland ones we got. 

[Kidel.2057]

Overall I'm having fun with Retribution, Energy sigils and grandmaster 2 and 3. 

- Urn of Saint Viktor is as bad as I imagined, if not even worse. 
Can't be double tapped (drop has a delay)  and the "Drop" action can be interrupted, forcing you to stay in the upkeep and die. 
I mostly just wait for F2 to recharge and swap it. The range on the other Spear elite is fine I guess, but it's not that impactful to be honest. It's just "ok" damage and torment, may even be a dps loss.

- Leviathan Strength is not that good considering that gets a very long recharge and prevents you from spamming dodges. Death Drop in general is awful and a total dps loss. Saint's Shield is the only decent dodge because it's fast and has a cost that makes it available when you need it (I'm using a full endurance build with energy sigils and Retribution). 

- The dodge has some bugs and is weak to fear and slow/chill.... yeah...  You can even be blinded and stunned mid-dodge. 

The class seriously needs more dps and cc. And remove the animation lock after dodge. 

🙏 Also please separate the loadout management on F2 from the endurance recharge. 

It serously makes no sense that I have to PAY ENERGY to manage my loadout. And tha way it's managed is terrible. 

Just make a F3 skill that allows to "lock" the loadout.

The new dodge is an interesting concept and I've been using it aggressively and adjusting my playstile to it. It's true that you basically don't dodge anymore, but the new dodge is basically a new attack, so I'm having a bit of trouble with survivability without Saint's Shield. 

Also the "damage" dodge (Forerunner of Death) is the only decent damage modifier of the spec, but renders the class clunky and frail because of the HUGE energy cost compared to the other 2, that however provide no damage modifier. 

Since the dodge is basically removed (this one is an attack and can't be "saved" for when it's useful to evade), this class needs some major adjustments to sustain, usability and dps. The dodge is still a dps loss, even the strong one. 

I wanted to use Shiro as a second legend, but I find it very hard to survive if I don't use Jalis instead. Bummer. I also find that Jalis synergises more with the "brawling" style because of Vengeful Hammers and provides some much needed condi cleanses. 

Overall at the moment Shiro+Jalis is so much better compared to Alliance and the spec has lower dps compared to Core rev. 

Seriously needs faster GS attacks, NO COOLDOWN ON UTILITY SKILLS, that F3 I mentioned before. 

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Kidel.2057
newlines...

[Brunnsteinangel.2568]

A bland, boring e-spec with too much of its identity focused arouind the dodge.

Really sad to see, as the dodge and flip-over legend seems great on paper, but it feels bland, boring und klunky to play.

Give it a real theme, make the GS more exciting and think over what the traits do and what the legend is/does, then there is hope.

"Saving" the Vindicator - Revenant - Guild Wars 2 Forums
This is a post I just opened, in which I went through and "salvaged" the Vindicator, giving it a theme and tying it together, as it is truly sad to see such great ideas wither.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Brunnsteinangel.2568

[Caeledh.5437]

Awful - even worse than Herald and Renegade. Which I hadn't imagined possible.

The promise of the base class is cooldown free utilities, limited only by energy. Me in control of my character rather than the other way around. Again, every utility has a cooldown, plus the weird kitten flipping mechanic.

Plus side - it's the final death of any hope I might enjoy this profession one day.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Caeledh.5437

[zallesz.1650]

Forerunner of Death dodge & Spear Elite should deal a huge amount of damage considering the time it requires. 

F2 is nice, but Leviathan Strength gives is a super long cd, and is essentially useless outside of Alliance. 

Dps seems weak so far. I tried several quick builds in full Berserker, and I am having trouble reaching keeping up a consant 30k on golem. (But that might be just me!)

I was looking forward to a gs spec for Rev for years, but this needs some serious work before release.

[hugo.4705]

I will say the same as what I complained about with ele: Speed.

Skills too long to cast, a real pain. The damage is ok, the skill appearance? Really meh. Feels like it copy pasted skills from the weapons rev currently use. Skill 2 feel like mace lol. Utilities and elite on the contrary are cool. 

Frankly, to me the worst of the trio spec of today. Why?

Warrior is fun, fast paced, interesting theme, cool animation, good damage. It has 5 stars.

Ele is fun, interesting theme, cool animation, but septic about damage efficiency and fast paced. 3 stars.

And rev, it has nothing apart eventually interesting theme. 1 star. Skills are copy pasted feom core rev. And that elite actually feel weaker than core rev, i mean what? Lol even my renegade is better! Here, no real fun. Sad, 

TLDR anet: faster skills,less cast time. Unique skills,not copy pasted.

Edited September 21, 2021 by hugo.4705

[philvaneyck.1932]

So far the most fun elite spec of all three today.

But every skill on greatsword is just an existing skill, you can feel it.

[Kidel.2057]

Let's do some math. Should I re-use a skill to flip it over and wait 10-12 seconds for its normal cooldown (getting the effects of the skill), or instead pick Leviathan Strength that adds a 20s cd to all my flipovers? That trait is useless in Alliance and detrimental in any other legend. 

Urn of Saint Viktor is probably the worst skill in the game. Slow, clunky, can be interrupted, can't be double tapped (like Facets).

The only dodge that is not a huge dps loss (but a minor dps loss) and gives the only damage modifier of the spec is borderline unusable because of the huge energy cost and basically makes the class the only in the game that can't rely on a dodge. This is probably fine if the spec had some major sustain to make it up for it, and some good dps. 

The dodge also locks you after it for some reason, and is weak to slow and fear. 

The spec is fun, but needs tweaks before release. 

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Kidel.2057