Vindicator Feedback Thread

[Kuya.6495]

I only played vindicator in pvp, so this is feedback related only to that game mode.

 

What i liked:

1. I liked that the GM trait vastly changes how the dodge is used and how it works.
2. It works pretty well in pvp as a bunker using ventari but it was a bit meme. Hopefully something more viable at high end pvp can come out of it. It might have been a bit broken with just spamming dodge using the vigor you get from the ventari orbs. 

What i'm skeptical about:

1. The dodge evade frames. I mostly just used the defensive barrier dodge, but frequently it felt like i could get cc'd mid animation for the dodge. Is this intentional? I guess that can be considered counterplay but i would prefer that the dodge frames last the duration of the animation, as getting cc'd while you're in outerspace is extremely disorienting. 
2. The way you change between the red and blue utility skills. I never tried this, but i noticed some people simply did not take the legendary alliance utilities and just took the traits. I should have done the same because using these utilities in pvp is a nightmare. You use say, your blue heal skill to provide team support, but then you need it again so you use f2, but then it switches your other utilities to the red ones when you didn't want that. It mostly promotes spamming all your utilities before using f2 which does not feel interesting, strategic or fun. I think a simple solution is just making it so f2 changes all your utility skills to either red or blue and they no longer swap on use. Meaning, if i tap my blue heal skill, only my blue heal skill will come back up when  it's off cd and the only way i can change to red is by clicking f2. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Kuya.6495

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

As far as I understood looking at the spec on paper, it's supposed to be a new role - dps healer. High healing, high dps, B tier utility.
Currently it fails at the job due to dps side of things underperforming. The issues are serious and many..

1. Offensive dodge grandmaster trait is a total mistake. It puts you outta action for so long, that it's own damage buff (15% for 15%) barely if at all just compensates the damage lost from dodging. And which dps spec (read: glassy) is gonna enjoy having a single dodge with 150 stamina cost?? It's suicide! Small reminder here - Mirage who also has single dodge (in competitve), does not have to pay 150 stamina for it and has  good access to distortion (invulni) via other means!

2. Hybrid specs need free stats to work - if I'm gonna put some steam into healing power i will be needed to get crit chance and ferocity from somehewhere. So why is there none, while condi spec (renegade) gets whooping 33% extra crit chance and 10% power dps boosts?

3. Greatsword skills are underperforming - the block is a joke! It's supposed to provide massive damage reward the more hits you block. But instead the "revenge strike" part hits like a wet noodle and is slow as molasses! It feels like ignoring it all together and just doing auto chain is a better choice for dps!  And why is nr 5 skill using reaper animation?? Vindicator is a soldier profession. He has no right to struggle so much with swinging a 2h weapon, which in necro's case is justified.

4. Archermorus elite does hardly any damage at all, given the insanely huge telegraph and windup time.


Generally when naming all the issues a simple patters reveals itself. This is a hybrid spec that was given non-hybrid treatment.
To do it right you need to give it free stats for it to work and a flow of actions that don't interrupt one another. Renegade can heal by just casting summons and they do the job while you dps. He also grants boons by skills that don't force him out of his rotation.

Meanwhile on vindicator everything is a dps loss. You dodge - you're out of action for a loong spell (unless it's the defensive dodge which is actually good). You block? Good job, but the "counter strike" is at a level of single auto attack.. You heal? Well it's channeled so....
And so on and on...

Either things like firebrand, renegade and scourge need the vindicator treatment (doing one thing denies you doing others in terms of actions performed at a given time, not builds), or vindi needs theirs (free stats, supportive actions not disrupting dps flow).

[Tidalwave.9384]

I played vindicator in wvw mostly in a small scale but I tried some solo play and blob fights too. While I’m not a revenant main I do consider myself at least competent on it. Out of all the beta specs, the vindicator felt like it was in the best position out the gate but the spec still needs some work. The main problem with vindicator seemed to be the lack of clear focus on what it wants to be. At the moment it felt more like a hybrid between herald and renegade instead of being a unique playstyle in itself. The change to the dodge mechanic feels fun, just as it is on daredevil even though it needs to be smoothed out. However, the main issue lies in the clunkiness of the alliance skills and the over reliance of the alliance stance in its design. In the alliance stance when using the f2, I often wanted to flip just 1 or 2 of the skills instead of all of them which tended to make me pop some skills just to keep access to them, even with the cooldown going on. The other is the clear synergy with retribution traitline (and the practically mandatory invocation) which makes it feel like the build is rather locked in place combined with the fact that the spec in itself wants to be damage/support hybrid where it feels like the focus is on the damage and the support is simply added on while the whole thing lacks the modifiers to make the damage work.

 

Greatsword: overall the greatsword feels like a worse version of the ranger greatsword, which is not bad considering that ranger gs is a great weapon. However, it felt very hard to utilize the greatsword properly as it lacked the control to stick to targets and as per usual for all the beta specs, seemed to just lack the damage to finish targets off. The weapon needs some way to lock enemies down to give proper pressure. Similarly, the weapons similarity to the ranger greatsword made it feel rather uninspired as many of the skills fill the same roles.

 

auto chain: The auto chain felt fine, the chill on the 3^rd attack felt like a nice reward for utilizing the full chain though chills alone don’t solve the weapons lack of control.

 

mist unleashed: apparently, this skill should hit as hard as maul but it sure doesn’t feel like it. Overall, this skill felt, if not weak, rather unrewarding to use. It felt like spammable fire and forget skill with minimal impact on the fights. Similarly, the cast animation of it doesn’t feel like it matches the particles or the effect which for me further made it feel like a skill without any real weight to it.

 

Phantom’s onslaught: Probably the best skill on the weapon, it simply felt great to use alongside with the animation and the effect. However, the range on this skill seems bugged as it’s listed as 900 but the charge is actually just 600, which is just too short for the weapon to work. Sometimes if my target was between 600 and 900 it would go the full distance but this felt extremely buggy and inconsistent overall.

 

Imperial guard/True strike: The block felt great but the true strike part feels like it requires some work. The duration for the strike part was so short that I either lost it before I could use it or was unable to land it as I couldn’t properly lock my target down for it due to the small hitbox and the requirement to rush using it. The idea of charging up a strike from the block feels nice if it wasn’t so punishing trying to use the strike.

 

Eternity’s requiem: Currently feels too slow for what it does and the damage, while notable, lacked the proper punch that the skill feels like it should have. The animation and effect are nice (even if it is just reaper #2).

 

Dodges: I played around with the vassals of the empire (VoTE) and saint of zu heltzer (sozh) dodges while noping out of the forerunner of death immediately after using it once as it simply takes too much endurance to use in PVP formats. The endurance costs, for at least the forerunner of death and possibly VoTE, need to be adjusted or it won’t be used as losing a dodge isn’t worth the endurance cost and effect of the current ones. All of the dodges felt rather clunky to use as their dodge frames and movement felt staggered which made landing them on enemies rather difficult which in turn made VoTE lacklustre as without the damage part the dodge simply wasn’t cutting it. This in turn made sozh look extremely good as it was simply more effective to stop relying on the need to land on opponents and instead heal yourself even if I was ignoring the healing increase on others effect. On top of that, the 50-endurance cost on sozh made it feel amazing to use with the endurance traits in the spec. Simply put, it was fun to be able to dodge roughly every 3 seconds, even with how buggy they felt. I also noted that the dragon trigger consistently dazed me in the dodges (no matter which part of the animation I was in, mostly I wasn’t even visible on my screen and still got dazed) and I got sometimes hit while in the dodge roll, which makes me wonder how these are coded. However, at the end of the day, the new dodges didn't really feel like they added much to differentiate the gameplay of the spec, unlike mirage (and to a lesser extend daredevil). I'd like to see the dodges standardized to 50 energy to lean harder on the gameplay of heavy dodge usage which would allow for better distinction between the dodge traits and thus customizing the gameplay.

 

Alliance skills: The alliance skills felt clunky to use overall and outside of nomad’s advance and tree song felt rather underwhelming. While it felt nice that their costs were low, the consistent flipping more so meant that I had to use f2 on cooldown to either keep the pressure up or keep tree song available and it was rather hard to burn energy away to benefit from the charged mist (which could just be a fine design decision) but due to this I felt like I was sitting in the alliance legend for way too long as it felt like I had soon next set of abilities available and didn’t want to waste them or the energy.

 

Selfish spirit/selfless spirit: I never actually checked how much selfish spirit healed if I didn’t hit anybody but these skills felt interchangeable to me overall. The difference in small scale combat (partly due to radius) was often so small that they were essentially the same skill. In larger fights, the selfless spirit felt solid whereas selfish spirit tended to be risky to get the full benefit from as sticking in the middle of 5+ people tended to get me ccd out of it (which is a fine risk/reward for the rather large heal). It was also weird that the cost is 10 energy instead of the seemingly standard 5 though the only time I felt this was when I had to use f2 in conjuncture with other skills.

 

Nomad’s advance: Overall very little to say about this skill, it simply felt good. The damage was nice and the range was fine. If anything, the random might on it felt out of place, especially as just 1 stack and it could be changed to something else or just removed.

 

Battle Dance: The initial cast time needs to go and the boons adjusted accordingly. The skill just felt bad to use due to the cast time and I was often sitting on it as it never really filled the proper need for using it (outside of utilizing the roll distance to move, either in engagement or disengagement and even then, the cast time made it awkward) which is in rather sharp contrast with the Shiro dodge which feels amazing due to the lack of cast time. The resistance on it feels strong but it felt strong on paper but was hard to utilize well.

 

Scavenger burst: Another skill that felt like fire and forget to me. The quickness is great but outside of that, the skill doesn’t do anything that makes it stand out. Especially the long burn, while the rest of the spec doesn’t support conditions at all feels weird and more so just feels like a treat to might stacking.

 

Tree song: Might be the best skill revenants have overall. Simply put, it felt like this was a utility skill that revenant was lacking and did everything you’d want for a defensive skill to do. The description could use some clean-up, I don’t think this skill has evade frames anywhere.

 

Reaver’s rage/Awakening: Another pair of skills that felt largely interchangeable. Using either of these never really changed my gameplan, as the main difference I felt like was in the stability/protection boons but I tended to use both of them to force the combat more so the skill never really gave me a reason to mix things up enough for them to feel distinctive from one another.

 

Spear of archemorus: While a lot of people seem to dislike this, I think it’s fine for its cast time. It’s by no means a great skill but as a fire and forget skill it works fine, even if it’s rather hard to utilize properly as I found it to be the necessary skill to down people in burst windows and the delay makes timing difficult. Then again, this is an elite skill and probably shouldn’t feel like a toss away skill. One possibility could be to make this an upkeep skill with increasing damage (to a cap when it forcibly releases) which would also help with triggering charging mist.

 

Urn of Saint Viktor: No, just no. This is probably the worst skill in the game as it stands. It’s hard to utilize the damage taken reduces when you can’t heal yourself and you’re slowed so it’s harder to avoid further damage and the aoe heal isn’t that much. To top it all off, the drop is extremely slow and interruptible while also being unresponsive enough that trying to just pop the drop skill still costs you life (it might be neutral while below 25%) while the buffs aren’t worth it to risk using it at low health. This skill in itself made spear of archemorus a worse skill simply because I didn’t have access to It since I didn’t want to use the urn first. Some of the negative parts in this skill just have to go if it’s ever to be useful and the skill will most likely require some major rework to be usable. Making the drop instant would be the easiest solution but then I’d doubt the active part of the skill would be used outside of very special scenarios.

 

Alliance tactics & energy meld: These skills should be separated. Energy meld has its uses and I found it to be very helpful with sozh dodge whereas combining it with alliance tactics often made the energy part of the skill redundant, which in turn made the skill swapping feel extremely expensive when I couldn’t properly use the whole description of the skill.

 

Traits: overall the traits lack damage modifiers. Due to the synergy with retribution traits, it feels like the vindicator wants to be overly tanky spec while it becomes hard to justify going for damage in other traitlines which could be compensated with some traits in the vindicator traits themselves. Dodges are covered before so I won't go into them again here.

 

Balance in discord: Sets the theme for being tanky, gives a solid amount of sustain rather passively. Nothing really wrong with it per se but if the theme is a duality between damage and support having a full supportive trait be a minor is a weird call. Thus, the boon could be an offensive one but there’s no real need for it gameplay-wise.

 

Empire Divided: While boring, rather effective. Power is always welcome and the healing power tends to be active when it’s needed which makes it work.

 

Leviathan Strength: While strong in theory, due to how the f2 works the increase in cooldown is too big of a downside to taking this. Essentially all I would do with this is double cast tree song when I really needed it and most of the time it was just better to predict when I needed tree song ahead of time and get another trait. If the f2 was split into two with just the alliance stance change and endurance gain separated (with energy cost reduced on alliance swap) this would be a solid trait idea.

 

Amnesty of Shing Jea: Ok, and? The boons feel truthfully laughable. They simply don’t do enough to justify taking this trait.

 

Redemptor’s Sermon: Feels very solid, mostly due to the condition removal even with the long cooldown. But wasn’t the plan to remove passive traits from the game? why design one now? Also due to how the other 2 traits work this seems to be the default choice of the traitline which doesn’t seem good design.

 

Reaver’s curse/angsiyan’s trust/song of the arboreum: 3 traits that all attempt to do the same thing which will always end up in a scenario where one is stronger than the other 2, which currently is the song of the arboreum. I quickly defaulted to the song and it felt great to use and I’d suggest sticking with it while reworking the other 2 traits. Notably, the traitline lacks a designated greatsword trait which could help with the damage issue the spec has. Also, which effects the angsiyan’s trust reduces? The tooltips shouldn’t be this vague.

 

closing thoughts:

All in I found vindicator to be fun to play if under tuned. The concept shows promise but the execution requires more work to make it play more fluid. I had more success overall sticking with dwarf/Shiro legends instead of trying to play around with alliance which avoided most of the clunkiness of the spec which further hinted to me that the alliance legend needs work to make it play better.

 

[VergilDeZaniah.3295]

A really simple feedback compared to the previous ones, I will simply focus on the design in general. I am mainly a WvW player so I'm talking about my experience in that mode only.

Also, I must admit I haven't read all the feedback (yet), so I don't know how many times my remarks have already been brought up, if at all.

 

1. Legends

While the Legends were kinda logical from a Canthan point of view, I feel like they are flavorless... I like the idea of an offensive and a defensive legends, but they don't really feel impactful as they are, especially Archemorus.

 

2. Mechanics

Gosh I hate the new "dodge". It's Daredevil, but useless. Vindicators should get at least two dodges, or even 3 like DD (and some nerfs to the effects). The risk is really high at the moment, for a low reward. Also, like DD, they should have better, unique animations.

Switching between Archemorus and St. Viktor is rather a good idea, but then F2 is way too expensive. Either don't make it an auto switch and keep the F2 cost, or leave the auto switch and make the F2 cheaper. Tbh, I'd rather go for a manual switch, AND F3 to have Energy Meld.

 

3. Animations

So far, weapon animations look rather good. Except Eternity's Requiem: it shouldn't use the Gravedigger animation, which is way too iconic to be actually reused. Why not make something new, like throwing the greatsword and making it spin around the Vindicator? It really lacks identity at the moment.

Skill animations, on the other hand, barely have any presence. Elite specs don't have any catch to the eye, barely amusing (if at all) to use and watch.

 

4. Skills

The icons also lack flavor. They could have a better Canthan vibe.

Also, the skills themselves seem unfinished: they do everything without doing anything. They feel weak, unimpactful, and rather bland in the thematics. They could use a little upgrade in order to feel more useful.

 

Sorry for my mostly negative feedback, but I have the impression the spec could be ten times better if a little effort is put into improvement.

Edited September 29, 2021 by VergilDeZaniah.3295

[VodCom.6924]

Game mode : PvE (Open world and T3 fractals (not enough AR to go T4))

 

General impressions : 

• Very amusing to use in open world, with or without the legendary alliance. A core rev could kill individual units much faster but against multiple ennemies the vindicator (short. vind) will pull ahead in a fluid and satisfying way. Very frustrating to use in fractals because of a well documented lack of damage or heals (for the healing build). The healing build is a fun concept but lacks offensive or defensive boon applications to be useable in a serious group in PvE. Adding ways to apply 25 stacks of might to a squad of 10 people could be an option.

 

The legendary alliance : The concept is nice but grossly undertuned. Keep the F2 as it is. 

• Archemorus skills are perfect for open world but all occupy the same niche. They can all be summarised as "damage+offensive boons+some extra effect". You just spam all these skills and everything works fine. However, in group content the value of all these skills is greatly diminished because offensive boon generation is outsourced to someone else.
• The legendary alliance is missing a CC skill. This is harshly felt in fractals. While other revenant specs can mitigate this with a staff switch, you don't have that option as a dps vind because you use the greatsword with the pair of swords. My suggestion would be to replace the boons given by battle dance or the evade with a 2sec daze. That would make the skill synergise with the urn of St Viktor and be also useable by an offesnsive vindicator.
• Having no energy drain on archemorus skills is also detrimental to any gameplay involving "charged mists". Suggestion : turn the spear of archemorus into a 1200 range pulsing aoe that drains energy to be maintained.
• The drain of the urn of St Viktor is too high. The healing power scaling is too low. You get to zero energy before your health has time to dip down. Morevoer, the healing from smashing the urn is way too low. Once you have burned your energy as a healing vindicator you have to somehow swap to ventari and burn an enormous amount of energy just to get you back to full health. Right now the best way to use the urn is to pop it and smash it immediately to reduce the risks and get the best healing/energy ratio. This is not what is intended.

 

Comments on the traits : 

• Adept traits : two out of 3 are useless if you don't have the legendary alliance slotted. The whole set of adept traits should give bonuses when using the F2 without relying on the use of a specific legend.
• Grand-master traits : because the vindicator gains endurance with % based sources (natural regeneration/vigor boon) and flat endurance gain sources (some alliance skills, some traits etc.) modifying the max amount of endurance and the amount needed for a dodge skews the master trait choice. The trait reaver's curse is garbage when used in conjunction with forerunner of death while OP when used with Saint of zu Heltzer. The opposite is true for the trait "song of the arboreum" who has the best return on investment with forerunner of death.
• Finally the functions of the traits "Angsiyan's Trust" and "song of the arboreum" overlap too much. These traits need more differenciation.

[HeIan.3504]

My biggest issue was the flipping of utility skills and the way it works with F2. I may have needed for time with the spec, but the flipping and F2 seemed to be fighting with each other.  I was frustrated getting everything to the right skill I wanted while try to flip and keep endurance up. Mostly because of balancing Cooldowns, Endurance, Energy and different skill sides.

 

I think it would be much cool to remove the flipping and instead for the first time giving Rev the ability to choice utilities. You would want to add something more to the to the F2, but I do like the way the endurance works with the leap dodge.

[Zenith.7301]

Just make the F2 swap the skills and grant vigor+endurance. Maybe grant vigor in an aoe 10 man.

[Geoff Fey.1035]

The Legendary Alliance is interesting but needs a bit of revamping. As previously stated it's tricky to get the skill you need (even with the current F2) at the time you need it.

What if F2 swapped to the Legendary Alliance (LA) stance and provides additional endurance when you're in LA? That way, you essentially have 3 different stances. You can camp in LA for the additional endurance, or legend swap between the 3 to quickfire utilities.

One of the biggest issues I found with the Legend is that it seems to want you to camp in that Legend but doesn't provide the tools to gel with Revenant's core design.

 

[Vyce.2014]

Vindicator Feedback:

 

Dodge mechanic: the dodge felt a little clunky mechanically. It might have had to do with the after-cast root. Can this be reduced?

 

Dodge cost: the big damage version costs too much, the support version is too cheap. Can we find a middle ground? Something like: 60/80/100

 

St. Viktor Elite: this felt too complex mechanically. Can this somehow be changed to a fire and forget skill?

 

F2: this felt weak in other Legends. I'm wondering if this can take on a small amount of CD recharge in all legend utilities (+swap in vindi legend) and give us something different rather than the current recharge trait.

 

Greatsword: chill seems to be a theme for this weapon, but nothing in the trait line builds off that condition.

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Vyce.2014

[Hunnie.3451]

Late to the party, but I also have a few concerns.

2 legends sounds awesome, but it doesn't feel properly executed. 

I need each skill to have some value consistently and, unfortunately, I don't feel that way.  Like many of the comments seen here, double-tapping a skill was the only way to play!

 

Others have mentioned that we are woefully missing Vizu in this alliance.

Can't we have all three? What if we had three legends to swap similar to the Firebrand's Tomes? Each changes the utility skills, energy management should be hard between them.

 

Then we can choose which legend we're in, reliably. 

Then each trait line can line up with one of the three legends. 

And you're not just kicking the chick out of club.

 

There are huge holes in this idea, like how does legend swapping work, but someone smarter than me has to have the answer.

 

Thank you for having this forum for us to share our concerns.

Complaining post aside, I love this game. I want it to continue to succeed.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Hunnie.3451
1 sentence wasn't a complete thought

[Uete.3805]

5 hours ago, Hunnie.3451 said:

Others have mentioned that we are woefully missing Vizu in this alliance.

Can't we have all three? What if we had three legends to swap similar to the Firebrand's Tomes? Each changes the utility skills, energy management should be hard between them.

 

Then we can choose which legend we're in, reliably. 

Then each trait line can line up with one of the three legends. 

And you're not just kicking the chick out of club.

 

There are huge holes in this idea, like how does legend swapping work, but someone smarter than me has to have the answer.

 

Thank you for having this forum for us to share our concerns.

Complaining post aside, I love this game. I want it to continue to succeed.

The lack of Vizu... That's what bothers me the most in this spec. I think it might be too crazy to bring a 3rd legend into the mix, but I hope some sort of Vizu representation ends up being a part of the Vindicator.

That aside - and I haven't followed the full 25 pages of the discussion here - but I think that a good way of sorting out the different needs and wants this community has raised might be to allow us to choose the Alliance skills we want active: Kurzick, Luxon or Swappable, on a skill by skill level. This would allow people to:

• Keep all skills from either side to fulfill a specific role
• Have a mix of fixed (or swappable) skills
• Keep the legend as it currently exists (but maybe only keep Archamorus Spear as an Elite for PvP because *oh my* that felt quite dangerous, totally up to the player)

This option would avoid the need to create an F3 that makes your skills unswappable, while also avoiding the need to burn through some of your skills to get the "build" that best suits your role or playstyle. I would totally understand if mechanically that might be difficult, but such technology could allow the other legends to have a 4th utility skill to give some variety within each particular legend. That was a tangent.

As for the F2-F4 skills, I agree with many people that Alliance Tactics should be divided in 2 different skills (one for the endurance recovery and the other for Alliance's skills swapping). This would give more strategy and options as to when do you want to have one or the other and the spec would flow better for it, in my opinion. That leaves room for an F4 skill: Vizu's Remembrance (Your next dodge is Unblockable and Dazes the target. Stun the target instead if they were blocking). It would give a needed break bar damage skill for PvE and it can have a crazy skill recharge in PvP and WvW, while still being tactically interesting in those competitive modes.

I really enjoyed my short time with the Vindicator, specially in PvP, so I'm very thankful and eager to get my hands on it on February!

[Loules.8601]

On 9/29/2021 at 1:59 PM, VergilDeZaniah.3295 said:

So far, weapon animations look rather good. Except Eternity's Requiem: it shouldn't use the Gravedigger animation, which is way too iconic to be actually reused.

And all other animations from Warrior - ok?) Then I hope to change warrior-copy animations and keep gravedigger - at least it looks cool and Reaper have another… all unique animations. 

[Sigil Shadowstep.4508]

Revenant main who runs CM raids/ full clears/Fractal CMs and used to play Revenant at Plat 1 level in PvP discussing Vindicator.

 

I wanted to give a little background as to what kind of player I am so perhaps it may add a little more weight to what I have to say, but at the end of the day I'm no one really. I as a revenant main have to say I'm extremely disappointed with the Vindicator e-spec, it is clunky, unsatisfying and lacks the enjoyment that you get of dynamic energy and managing it amongst a plethora of other things.

 

First and foremost we have to remember that Revenant is unique in that its energy mechanic is something you don't find with other professions, both the weapon AND utility skills cost energy and so energy/skill management already produces an opportunity for skill expression. More skilled players will be able to manage energy more effectively, squeezing out more (assuming we're raiding) DPS effective skills in one stance before swapping into another or just using skills effectively without wasting the energy left before an intended swap. This has always been a fun and enjoyable mechanic and being a previous Thief main it wasn't too difficult. The condiren rotation is super fun and satisfying to execute as I would say it is undoubtedly very specific in the way you handle energy in order to maximize the DPS that you get.

Secondly, we have to discuss dodging as it's what has been completely changed in Vindicator so I think it's relevant. Dodging in Guild Wars 2 is extremely useful, whether it be to evade or avoid mechanics at the last split second or to help traverse larger gaps by jump dodging or even to travel specific distances swiftly (what comes to mind here is pillar placement, in and out with Adina, I dodge). And so when the Vindicator comes along and says we're changing the way the dodge works, it needs to take into account that although it may not be really considered, dodging is a huge part in the PvE and PvP arenas.

 

Another thing is that Revenants thus far in their e-specs in a PvE environment have been extremely support heavy. When Herald was first released, boon Revs were the main use of Revs in Raids, providing boon uptime from the F2 Herald and might, fury, swiftness and good crowd control from Staff, Herald/Jalis and generally being support oriented. They didn't see much DPS use in Raids. Then there is the current meta which is healthier in my opinion, where you have the CondiRen as a viable condi DPS pick for Raids and encounters where CDPS is favourable. Or of course, the Alacren which provides that much desires alacrity to 10 man via the press of one button, as well as strong crowd control from Kalla utilities, Staff and the stances mentioned above and boonstrip for fractals so it's viable there too given it covers damage, cc and utility of the boonstrip. If you run 2 CondiRens in Raids or Fractals you can also do Righteous Rebel renegade which makes it even more desirable as the DPS is higher without losing the alacrity. So all in all you have a dps and support option and it is quite, thankfully, flexible.

 

So when I heard of the Vindicator and saw the greatsword I was quite happy that a potentially viable power e-spec was coming to Rev that would be great for PvE. But in reality I'm extremely disappointed.

 

The whole dynamic of the two stances in one, touches upon "jack of all trades, master of none" and the coefficients seem to be incredibly lackluster meaning that they neither do the damage or the support roles particularly well in and of themself. The first issue I have is to do with the way the utilities have been designed, on use they flip, but then they also go on cooldown? So when CMC said you can use Alliance Tactics (AT) to flip it back, it's quite useless because not only do you have to flip it, you also need to wait for it to come off of cooldown before you can use it again. Maximum rotation on the largest golem so far has been about 31k.

And in addition to this, Revenants have to manage the energy resource as well with AT costing 25 energy ALONE. Sure, you could run the invocation trait lane and opt for the trait that gives you 25 energy when swapping whilst below 10 energy but I feel like that stifles build diversity and shouldn't be necessary for skill execution in the new stance to function smoothly. It's an absolutely ridiculous value considering never in a raid situation do Revenants allow the energy to reach 100 as this would mean you'd need not to expend energy at a high rate which basically translates into a DPS loss.

 

Also the dodging:

Forerunner of death, the damage buff is lackluster, the fact that you can't do anything during the dodge itself and you're locked out means that it's a DPS loss and even the impact damage, the fact that it's dependent on your crit makes it even worse and a DPS loss than the intended effect (to boost it).

 

How to improve it? I think a way to improve the skill expression of this ability is to make it so that you can end the animation early if you just want the impact damage and the damage buff without losing the DPS at the cost of evade frames. This way if there's longer mechanics you need to avoid, you have access to the evade frames at the cost of DPS loss and if you just want DPS you can double tap evade for a quick slam, giving you damage buff and the impact damage.

 

Vassals of the Empire, the random use of chill seems a little out of place here, I'd like to see more specific focus on PDPS and the number to be boosted with the chill being removed as it feels out of place. The boon duration extension is nice and it grants boons but I think the boon duration should be extended to 4/5 seconds and remove boons granted given that in parties/raid squads, Druids, firebrands and even basic coordination produce the boons they provide.

 

The only viable one currently is the Saint of Zu Heltzer, however this particular dodge forces the Vindicator into a supportive role once again, and it doesn't really Vindicate the Revenant from support jail.

 

Utility skills - I think the healing skills need to appreciate if I am stacked on 5 enemies, then I need to be able to get some significant heals off in order to survive so ramp the numbers. Remove the CD cos it flips and it costs energy and we're managing 3 mechanisms at once otherwise and it just becomes too tedious.

 

Remove CD from all utilities, make the Archemorus side more focused on the player and remove the boons it provides for raw damage, I'd say scav burst's endurance is fine but remove the quickness and ramp the numbers, keep St Viktor more focused on the sub group/party.

Elite skills - Spear, remove the torment, make it a guaranteed crit and increase the damage. No cooldown.

Urn, avoid at all costs, but allow double tapping it, keep the cooldown or extend it to prevent playing 55hp monk.

I think the master traits and their focus on the vigor is way too much focus on the whole dodge mechanic, the dodge mechanic is a failure in that it doesn't provide what it needs to and so the supporting mechanisms also prove useless as a result. Perhaps they could be alot more useful if dodging actually was useful for Vindicators beyond spamming heal and barrier.

 

Adept traits - Leviathan Strength is useless outside the Vindicator stance, endurance is just useless for the 25 energy cost and what that translates into. The leviathan strength also seems like it shouldn't exist at all, we have an extra resource to manage and to constantly manage skill swapping in one stance so I don't believe there should be a cooldown on any of the Vindicator stance utilities similar to Mallyx.

 

Amnesty of Shing Jea is just bad considering S3 provides might not to mention blasting fire fields and might is a basic resource, only really useful for a support role. Once again the duality forces it into a support role as a DPS providing regen is useless, you may as well go with a DPS who hits higher benchmarks but a support class who heals who can provide might well thats great.

 

Greatsword skills - Please, get us some new animations. The legendary set of Aurene is disappointing enough, it's like you're actively trying to kill your game. I think GS2 needs to be clearer and more distinct that the AA chain, I'd probably make it a sweeping animation similar to the swing of a golf club or more like Daredevil's staff skill 4, dust strike as it makes more sense.

 

The GS 3 skill doesn't run as far as the tooltip indicates, but you already know of that bug I'm sure.

 

GS 4 seems quite useful for PVP and generally providing that useful block and damage boost based off of how much you block, it's fine as with the less evades we can use it to sponge damage on raid encounters and throw it back at Gorse or whoever is eating my steel that day.

 

GS 5, new animation again please but I think the execution and the cooldown is fine, I do think it could do with less energy cost by about 5.

 

All in all, I'm left disappointed, I bound my Eternity as soon as I saw the Vindicator reveal trailer but in reality I don't think I'll really be using Vindicator any time soon until they can really make it a class that's enjoyable to play in balancing the energy resource as well as the stance swapping which is a great skill expression form. Atm it's just clunky, slow and looks copy pasta'd.

[Angesombre.4630]

I think the system that the developers wanted to make in the alliance is that luxon and kurzik complement each other, I do not know if dissociating them from each other would be a good thing. 

I had criticized the alteration on it, see can also be improved so that it suits the demon path. If you look at it Glind didn't have many alterations either.

After that for me this specialization still deserves some work.

[Thon.3780]

One of problem  IMO is energy consume is to much compare to other elite. 
other profession than thief don’t use energy to activate.  
 

one more thing
If you notice , other rev elite skill is effective than Ally. Mean just one button one energy consume. Why Ally may need 2 to reach the same effectiveness. That mean more energy,  cd.  To reach
when Ally is design. It try to balance but swap F2 consume 20 energy make overall drain out. 

the best option I can see is F2 just swap without consume energy as well as how to make swap mechanic work properly. 

I try to understand that ANET want to make any Elite has own strong gimmicks. That why ANET have build slot . So player can change build base on situation. 
 

if ANET can tell us directly what concept of this elite they focus , then it will make me easier to comment 

[allias.1420]

From an sPvP point of view

 

Link to YouTube video highlighting some suggestions & recommendations: https://youtu.be/9VlhnGSEH5k?t=777

 

I played the Vindicator in sPvP for the entire duration of the beta. I tried different legend combinations, traits, gameplay variants such as power, condi & support. Here are the issues I found most prevalent: 

Pros:

- Fun and interactive

- Flexible skills

- Flexible playstyles. Can play condi, support or power variants. 

Cons:

- No CC

- Elite skills are weak

- Utility skills are 'locked'

 

SUGGESTIONS

Issue:

- The Alliance Stance locking the player into specific skills is an issue. 

Solution:

- Press F2 to change the entire utility bar. No more mix-matching Kurzick and Luxon skills. You are either in Luxon or Kurzick stance. This means skills are not flipped upon activation. 

 

Issue: 

- The Spear of Archemorus' damage can vary greatly between 1200 to 7500. Check video link provided for context.

Solution:

- Tweak the damage coefficient so the damage value is more consistent.

 

Issue: 

- Urn of Saint Viktor has too many disadvantages. 

Solution:

- Add an aoe knockback on skill activation. Increase healing value per tick, decrease number of pips drained and reduce 'Drop Urn of Saint Viktor's activation to 1 second. 

 

Issue:

- Forerunner of Death's evasion is too long and its aftercast animation is too long.

Solution:

- Reduce the length of evasion and shave off aftercast frames.

 

RECOMMENDATIONS

- The Major Adept trait 'Redemptor's Sermon' feels incongruent to the other two options which transform the function of F2. 

- Change 'Redemptor's Sermon' to: "F2 now heals allies in the area and cleanses conditions"

- This change should render the Vindicator's support role more viable. 

- Add a knockback to the Spear of Archemorus on impact which would make this skill more impactful and would be a much needed source of crowd control for the Alliance Stance.

Edited October 3, 2021 by allias.1420
included pros & cons

[Seku.6928]

"so revenant is a class all about swapping between 2 legends, what shall we do with the next one? - I know lets make it a legend that lets you swap between 2 legends!!!"

seriously who came up with such a lazy idea

 

Unfortunately this e-spec will probably make me change mains this expansion

Edited October 3, 2021 by Seku.6928

[Buran.3796]

  I'm currently leveling (getting hero points for the specs) a second (third) Warrior (I deleted one to swap the race) and this and the leveling of my third Rev made me think about how condi builds compare to power ones at PvE/OW in GW2....

   Honestly: don't expect the Vindicator to ever compete vs condi Renegade/Herald. Condi will always be better soloing content due a) you need less stats to deal damage, so you either go hybrid for extra damage or tanky for more sustain; b) condi builds usually are slower ramping up damage (except if is fire), but they don't lose dps the same way when your need to evade/block/retreat because the stacks keep ticking in the targets when you need to defend or get interrupted.  And that doesn't even take in consideration that a lot of HoT foes have huge armor values, which benefits condition builds even more.

   So, at best, Vindicator will provide tools buffed enough  to fastly dispatch PvE crowds with power AoE attacks without loosing too much compared with single targets (which is what happens now), and maybe ith will provide a good PvP bruiser. But condi Renegade/Herald will be always easier to play and safer (more defensive stats, ranged damage...). 

[Jthug.9506]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

  I'm currently leveling (getting hero points for the specs) a second (third) Warrior (I deleted one to swap the race) and this and the leveling of my third Rev made me think about how condi builds compare to power ones at PvE/OW in GW2....

   Honestly: don't expect the Vindicator to ever compete vs condi Renegade/Herald. Condi will always be better soloing content due a) you need less stats to deal damage, so you either go hybrid for extra damage or tanky for more sustain; b) condi builds usually are slower ramping up damage (except if is fire), but they don't lose dps the same way when your need to evade/block/retreat because the stacks keep ticking in the targets when you need to defend or get interrupted.  And that doesn't even take in consideration that a lot of HoT foes have huge armor values, which benefits condition builds even more.

   So, at best, Vindicator will provide tools buffed enough  to fastly dispatch PvE crowds with power AoE attacks without loosing too much compared with single targets (which is what happens now), and maybe ith will provide a good PvP bruiser. But condi Renegade/Herald will be always easier to play and safer (more defensive stats, ranged damage...). 

I personally wonder if the choice to make the FoD dodge so long was a last minute thing, it’s not mentioned in the tooltips, it may explain the bugs with being able to take damage and cc during the air time, and if it used to be shorter then the sustained dps would have been higher as well. I’m still hoping that it’s going to be buffed to compete with the top power builds in pve, call it copium and pathetic if you want.

[Buran.3796]

19 hours ago, Jthug.9506 said:

 I’m still hoping that it’s going to be buffed to compete with the top power builds in pve, call it copium and pathetic if you want.

   I think you missed my point, which isn't to critize the dps potential of the Vindicator, but pointing this reality:  none of the top power builds in the game in PvE are comparable vs the top condition or hybrid builds.  Not even close.

   The golem piñata can showcase a different picture because it doesn't return the blows, but when you compare the times at which some players are soloing legenday bounties (a content designed to be defeated for mid sized groups) you'll notice how some condition builds for some classes are doing the task with half of the time cap to spare, and that is because by nature using defensive tools doesn't hurt their dps too much as long as they keep landing their condition burst. 

    So, even if they ramp up the dps for Vindicator to 40k/s or more, don't expect that to make him instantly the "go to" for PvE.

[Jthug.9506]

23 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I think you missed my point, which isn't to critize the dps potential of the Vindicator, but pointing this reality:  none of the top power builds in the game in PvE are comparable vs the top condition or hybrid builds.  Not even close.

   The golem piñata can showcase a different picture because it doesn't return the blows, but when you compare the times at which some players are soloing legenday bounties (a content designed to be defeated for mid sized groups) you'll notice how some condition builds for some classes are doing the task with half of the time cap to spare, and that is because by nature using defensive tools doesn't hurt their dps too much as long as they keep landing their condition burst. 

    So, even if they ramp up the dps for Vindicator to 40k/s or more, don't expect that to make him instantly the "go to" for PvE.

Yeah condi often outstrips power, but on many fights power is preferable. I will often solo legendary bounties on my cele ren, I get your point. I’m just hoping to be able to to bring power revenant on kc, ca, and q1 as well as fractals and strikes with breakbars without feeling like a fool for not bringing literally any other power dps.

[wolfyrik.2017]

On 10/3/2021 at 11:02 PM, Seku.6928 said:

"so revenant is a class all about swapping between 2 legends, what shall we do with the next one? - I know lets make it a legend that lets you swap between 2 legends!!!"

seriously who came up with such a lazy idea

 

Unfortunately this e-spec will probably make me change mains this expansion

 

And it's arguably a worse version of swapping!

[Loki.4871]

Had an idea someone else has probably thought of, but what if the elite for both stances (or an F3) for Vindicator was Vizuna? I won't lie, I've not really thought the details out but broadly speaking I'm thinking you have her come in to inflict damage and/or a snare, 'marking' the target for the Vindicator to do extra damage on the target.

[Theriverpriest.9472]

1) Fix F2 sucks swapping utility skills over is just a weak legend swap and on other legends it does nothing of worth 

2) Fix the Urn. Damaging you on an upkeep lame not fun. it would make more sense on a necro to have self harming skills not Rev.

3) Slit the legends give people more choice it would open up new combos of legends

overall I like the Idea but it feels empty. hope it gets fixed 

[Kidel.2057]

14 hours ago, Theriverpriest.9472 said:

1) Fix F2 sucks swapping utility skills over is just a weak legend swap and on other legends it does nothing of worth 

True that it's a poor F2, but I actually found F2 on other legends to be better compared to F2 on Alliance. Sometimes I only wanted to get endurance, but that triggered my loadout. Or some other times I wanted to flip skills but was at full endurance, or wasted energy. 

F2 needs to only swap loadouts (and have some effect on other legends) and  for free. F3 should be energy to endurance conversion (at an energy cost). Why should I waste energy to manage loadout? 

There have been situations where I needed to use a skill, so I flipped with F2 and  I had no energy to use that skill...