Vindicator Feedback Thread

[Infusion.7149]

18 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

I was hoping revs get a weapon that works better without needing aoes that are put down so they can play vs thief players and play sorta like warr or reaper. Perhaps it needs buffs in cc then and overhaul for that kinda situation unless perhaps i'm wrong in which hopefully someone informs me why. I want rev to succeed in other areas that herald doesn't which is what new specs should do.

Sword is pretty trash at tagging things in openworld (and fractals too but condi meta there unless T1-T3) as damage goes down with more targets 😛

Greatsword should be much better in that regard, it is 5 targets for more or less everything including auto and the 5 skill (Eternity's Requiem) is more or less a meteor shower with 900 range.

Given that the largest portion of the playerbase is PVE players in openworld I would say that Vindicator would be a resounding success in that sense provided the greatsword damage is there. When I tested in the aerodrome the greatsword does more auto-attack damage than sword (unsurprisingly) and you get a 10 might+prot on dodge if you trait for it.

If greatsword becomes a strong power damage source I could see it hitting fast farming's site in the future instead of shortbow renegade.
https://fast.farming-community.eu/farming/builds/revenant

As far as competitive modes go , with the way the minor trait works such that 240 healing power is only applied when you are below 50% health, I can't help but think that alliance swap (F2) should be energy-free below 50% health so that you can use the Saint Viktor skills such as Tree Song (5 condi clear) or Battle Dance (backwards evade). It would certainly be better than the Redemptor's Sermon trait current iteration which is going to be near useless if you are up against large amounts of power damage (see WVW) as 2122 heal with 0.5*healing power scaling means you are healing maybe 3K if you are full heal stats.

Alliance legend already has an additional gap closer (Nomad's Advance) besides the one on greatsword itself and it comes at half the energy cost of Phase Transversal on shiro in competitive modes.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Axl.8924]

56 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Sword is pretty trash at tagging things in openworld (and fractals too but condi meta there unless T1-T3) as damage goes down with more targets 😛

Greatsword should be much better in that regard, it is 5 targets for more or less everything including auto and the 5 skill (Eternity's Requiem) is more or less a meteor shower with 900 range.

Given that the largest portion of the playerbase is PVE players in openworld I would say that Vindicator would be a resounding success in that sense provided the greatsword damage is there. When I tested in the aerodrome the greatsword does more auto-attack damage than sword (unsurprisingly) and you get a 10 might+prot on dodge if you trait for it.

If greatsword becomes a strong power damage source I could see it hitting fast farming's site in the future instead of shortbow renegade.
https://fast.farming-community.eu/farming/builds/revenant

As far as competitive modes go , with the way the minor trait works such that 240 healing power is only applied when you are below 50% health, I can't help but think that alliance swap (F2) should be energy-free below 50% health so that you can use the Saint Viktor skills such as Tree Song (5 condi clear) or Battle Dance (backwards evade). It would certainly be better than the Redemptor's Sermon trait current iteration which is going to be near useless if you are up against large amounts of power damage (see WVW) as 2122 heal with 0.5*healing power scaling means you are healing maybe 3K if you are full heal stats.

Alliance legend already has an additional gap closer (Nomad's Advance) besides the one on greatsword itself and it comes at half the energy cost of Phase Transversal on shiro in competitive modes.

I was watching vallun play rev on herald though so mainly thinking wvw SPVP here since the playstyle is different and condi is used a lot in pvp as a way to do damage over time to burn enemies down such as with teh aoes which sword/sword has which GS i don't see a lot of actual strong condi damage applications. Maybe i missed something?

And if the damage got increased maybe mobility perhaps it could also fight effectively as power vs firebrand.

[Buran.3796]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Sword is pretty trash at tagging things in openworld (and fractals too but condi meta there unless T1-T3) as damage goes down with more targets 😛

Greatsword should be much better in that regard, it is 5 targets for more or less everything including auto and the 5 skill (Eternity's Requiem) is more or less a meteor shower with 900 range.

Given that the largest portion of the playerbase is PVE players in openworld I would say that Vindicator would be a resounding success in that sense provided the greatsword damage is there. When I tested in the aerodrome the greatsword does more auto-attack damage than sword (unsurprisingly) and you get a 10 might+prot on dodge if you trait for it.

If greatsword becomes a strong power damage source I could see it hitting fast farming's site in the future instead of shortbow renegade.

   For PvE use GS could outperform the swords, and still won't be used because is nowhere near the damage condi Renegade provides with the shortbow, a build which is also safer because regular mobs get killed at range in seconds before even reaching the Renegade, and bosses can be poked at distance and defeated with condi burst while we dance around them. Also, the Vindicator lacks any highly desiderable boon as quickness or alacrity.

   I agree that the largest portion of the playerbase is devoted to OW PvE, but I think that the Vindicator will be fastly ditched once they find that is easier/faster to just run a condi Renegade or some other of the new specs.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

Feedback on Awakening - Victor Skill

 

TERRIBLE.  It's a group stunbreak with a 35 energy cost (in WvW/PvP) with a 1/2 second cast time.  No other "group stunbreak" in the game has a cast time; it doesn't make sense with the purpose of the skill.  If your allies are stunned and I try to break them out of it, by the time your human reaction time is able to make sense of the situation and cast the skill entirely to get the "group stunbreak" you've already spent .75s of the stun's duration.  Seems to not be worth the energy and time cost associated to break small CC effects (of which most are).  Even on something more substantial like Jade Winds, you still eat almost 1/3rd of the entire stun before being able to break stun your allies. 

Admittedly, I haven't tested the "group stunbreak" portion so it's certainly possible that that part of the effect is instant just like the self break stun, however, even if that is the case, I'm not sure why we need to have a 1/2 second cast time for 4s of Protection?  The skill literally doesn't do anything else besides break stun and grant a tiny boon....

Remove the cast time entirely on "Awakening."  It doesn't make sense.  Also lower the energy cost or the cooldown in WvW/PvE.  35e and 10s CD is WAYYYY too high for what the skill does.  Just look at Riposting Shadows; much better skill with roughly the same energy cost and much lower CD. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[phokus.8934]

One glaring oversight with Vindicator is that there’s no good upkeep skill.  Urn just needs to go and be radically redesigned  but the flip over has none.  Seems to be a stark contrast to ever other legend having an upkeep and still being allowed to be productive.

This elite felt extremely rushed with not a lot of thought out into it considering the above, amongst other things.

[Vyce.2014]

I noticed on the wiki that the GS #5 giant AoE skill has a 3 target cap. Is that accurate? That seems completely counter to the design of the other skills on the weapon.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eternity's_Requiem

Edited October 20, 2021 by Vyce.2014

[Catchyfx.5768]

44 minutes ago, Vyce.2014 said:

I noticed on the wiki that the GS #5 giant AoE skill has a 3 target cap. Is that accurate? That seems completely counter to the design of the other skills on the weapon.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eternity's_Requiem

 Every blast will hit max 3 ppl

[Brunnsteinangel.2568]

SO, after a bit of time, I must say.... Vindicator really needs to be scrapped andsomething new needs to be redone (time would be enough for that...)

Even more so, if I take a look at Herald or Ren.
Neither of these specs relly "changed" the way, rev plays.
New weapon, new legend, new buttons, but not really a new class mechanic.
Something new with how the energy or legend swap works (overcharge mode but only one legend for example?)

 

Even with Willbender or Cataclyst I can see some ways to create something good with what is there (though tbh the Cataclyst probably should also go back to the drawing board....)

But the Vindicator? I can't see a way to salvage it.

And as someone brought up the Scrapper at launch:
Yeah, it was wonkey and not as good as today, but the overall theme and how it was supposed to work was there and working.
Just the execution failed...Vindicator on the other hand...

 

I am especially disappointed after seeing the engi trailer and reading the article about the medium specs...

Heck do they sound awesome!

[Vyce.2014]

On 10/20/2021 at 7:14 PM, Catchyfx.5768 said:

 Every blast will hit max 3 ppl

 

That makes more sense, thanks!

 

[Catchyfx.5768]

22 hours ago, Brunnsteinangel.2568 said:

SO, after a bit of time, I must say.... Vindicator really needs to be scrapped andsomething new needs to be redone (time would be enough for that...)

Even more so, if I take a look at Herald or Ren.
Neither of these specs relly "changed" the way, rev plays.
New weapon, new legend, new buttons, but not really a new class mechanic.
Something new with how the energy or legend swap works (overcharge mode but only one legend for example?)

 

Even with Willbender or Cataclyst I can see some ways to create something good with what is there (though tbh the Cataclyst probably should also go back to the drawing board....)

But the Vindicator? I can't see a way to salvage it.

And as someone brought up the Scrapper at launch:
Yeah, it was wonkey and not as good as today, but the overall theme and how it was supposed to work was there and working.
Just the execution failed...Vindicator on the other hand...

 

I am especially disappointed after seeing the engi trailer and reading the article about the medium specs...

Heck do they sound awesome!

Exactly this is what I wanted, change of mechanic. One legend style was discussed. Some flip mechanic(that will work on vindi too) you drain energy and when you swap, you get exact energy you spended before) or something like that. Or get rid of energy for once idc.

 

I have to say medium armor classes stole the show, lets see if they will be good or strangly weak like the rest of new specs.

Edit: have to admit thief is very interesting.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Catchyfx.5768

[Obtena.7952]

On 10/21/2021 at 10:56 PM, Brunnsteinangel.2568 said:

SO, after a bit of time, I must say.... Vindicator really needs to be scrapped and something new needs to be redone (time would be enough for that...)

 

You say this ... but it's not going to happen. You don't know if there is enough time for that, not like it's relevant or not anyways. 

[Brunnsteinangel.2568]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You say this ... but it's not going to happen. You don't know if there is enough time for that, not like it's relevant or not anyways. 

 

Yeah, it probably won't happen.
Sadly.

Though there is more then enough time.

Coding an attack, trait or utility doens't take more then a couple hours.
(if Anets coding isn't bonkers, which I don't think it is)

The more "time consuming" thing would be to get a GOOD!!! design and class mechanic.

But TBH there are SO MANY!!! good ideas in this forum, Anet can literally copy past one of those and Revs would be happy.

The only thing Anet can't short cut and needs to actually work on would then be the animations.

 

Downside may be, that we don't see it for the 4th beta or only a very rough alpha version (so like the Vindicator xD).

But it can defnitly be done till february.

 

For some math:
Copy pasting a design idea fomr the forum and fleshing it out, aswell as discussing:
40 hours up to 60 hours

Creating fitting weapon skills, utilities, traits:

12 traits + 5 weapon skills + 5 utility skills = 22 things to code
=> lets say 25 to have some air to play around
5 hours per thing to code

=> 5 x 25 = 125 hours which can be split between 5 devs to code, so we could actually note them with "just" 25 hours.

 

QA Testing & balancing

another 40 hours to include the tweaking

 

Animations are harder to guess....

Say 12 (5 weapon, 5 utility, 2 extra) for 10 hours each => 120 hours.

Can again be split, so lets say 3? animators? brings it down to 40 hour.

 

All in all:
60 + 25 + 40 + 40 = 165 hours, with 10 ppl (game director, 3 animators, designer, 5 coders)

split by a 40 hour week =>

165/40 = 4,125 weeks.

Which is makes it even possible to rufsh it out for the 4th beta if you cut for example on the QA or the animations.

And there is nearly 4 times the time until release of EoD.

 

 

(As I don't code my self, I asked a couple of my friends who work in GameDev, Coding, etc. to give me estimates)

[duck.6804]

In terms of pvp imo it seems like Anet pulled another renegade when people will play the spec (for GS and traits just like renegade for short bow) but won't use the legend. You will just end up with skills that you may not want to use in certain moments.. Yes there is "f2" but still that switches up all the skills even those that you may not want to change in the given moment but are forced to.. There is no better feeling than to switch legends and get exactly what you need and why you switched legends in the first place.. HOW ABOUT you make a trait where you can pick between Archemorus or Saint Viktor. 2 legends in 1 just seem to much imo. 

 

Now for pve current design will probably do fine just like renegade.

 

Love gs, dodge and traits. But 2 in 1.. Bigger is not always better.. that's what she said.

Edited October 23, 2021 by duck.6804
grammar

[Chaos.7614]

Lots of good discussion already here but here's a few bullets that concisely explain what I think would make Vindicator better from a PvE perspective:

o Make Alliance Tactics an F3 to manually switch between Archemorus/Viktor and remove the swap over skills on use.

o Remove cast time on Alliance Tactics, Energy Meld, and rebalance or remove the energy cost for Energy Meld.

o Fix bugs with gs skills, improve the damage, and general polish.

o Allow players to press V again to complete the dodge early.

o Remove most of the support from Viktor and remake those skills to more of a self-enhancement (e.g. upkeep skill with increased damage). Both Viktor and Archemorus should be power DPS oriented, with Archemorus being more of an outward manifestation (like the spear elite doing damage) and Viktor with self-buffs. If we wanted to play support, we can always play Herald or Renegade.

o Improve the numbers on underperforming skills like Archemorus elite.

o Rework traits to focus less on dodging and more on power damage.

I hope most of these at least make it through with a rebalance of the other specs. Vindicator should be our power DPS, Renegade our condition DPS/alacrity provider, and Herald our general support. Benching barely 30k with Jalis/Shiro is disappointing.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Chaos.7614

[DanielPienaar.8094]

Introduction

This post summarizes some possible changes that can be made to Vindicator to make its playstyle a lot more fluid, and maybe match the DPS output of high-DPS professions, and possibly specialize into a support role that could also match with high-support roles. Throughout this post, I make reference to the skills available. I have added some extra skills, and changed some others, and of course traits. The traits I suggest point to the dodge ability, and the suggested Profession Mechanic Changes. Where I say 'nearby allies', it is also implied that you receive the effects.

Link to the Vindicator skills and traits:

Vindicator - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

 

Profession Mechanic Changes

Firstly, the when in the Legendary Alliance Stance, using the utility skills no longer 'flips' the skill between the two legends Archemorus and Saint Viktor. There are changes surround this discussed in this section, and in the Traits section.

F2: Energy Meld. This is now permanently available to all Legendary Stances, including Legendary Alliance Stance. No cast time, and the energy cost is reduced to 15 from 25. The endurance gain is reduced from 20 to 10.

F3: Alliance Tactics. This is available to all Legendary Stances. This ability summons the spirits of Saint Viktor and Archemorus. After a short delay (say 0.5 seconds), Saint Viktor performs a small heal in the area that he was summoned at (radius similar to the Renegade's spirits) and Archemorus teleports to your target (if you have one) and damages them for a small amount. This teleport would be similar to the Revenant's offhand sword skill 5 ability Deathstrike in its nature. The spirits themselves would look like the one summoned in the Vindicator's elite skill Spear of Archemorus, but Archemorus would now have a sword, and Saint Viktor would be blue. Instant cast, energy cost 15.

F4: Alliance Lock. This ability works similarly to Alliance Tactics, in that it flips your legend in Legendary Alliance Stance, but it is a permanent flip, so you can keep using either Archemorus' or Saint Viktor's skills without going to the other. However, when using this skill, all of your Legendary Alliance Stance utilities incur a 5 second cooldown. This ability itself has no cooldown or energy cost, and is only available in the Legendary Alliance Stance. There is also no energy or endurance gain associated with this - it is purely for control over using Archemorus or Saint Viktor skills.

 

Slot Skills

The only skill I talk about here are the elite skills, none of the other utility skills are spoken about (and so remain unchanged).

Spear of Archemorus: In addition to summoning the spirit of Archemorus to throw his spear at your target, Archemorus also summons 3 additional spirits (say members of his past unit) to continuously attack your target or foes around your target at melee range. This becomes an upkeep skill, at the cost of 6 or 7 energy pips. The longer the 3 additional spirits attack your target, the stronger Archemorus' spear throw becomes. This can be similar to the interaction with the Vindicator's greatsword skill 4 ability Imperial Guard where every successful strike increases the spear throw by a marginal amount. Reactivating the ability, or running out of energy, commences the throwing of the spear. There can be a 40 second cooldown associated with this.

Urn of Saint Viktor: Summon the spirit of Saint Viktor to follow you around (at your pace) and heal nearby allies continuously. Your healing to allies also increases by 10%, and you grant a barrier equal to 10% of the healing done by this skill. Your health is not drained, but you do 50% less damage of all types. This remains an upkeep skill of the same cost, and can be cancelled at any point. No cooldown (or 2 seconds as it is currently).

 

Traits

Here, I think it is a good idea to swap the Major Adept and Major Master skills around, so that the traits associated with energy-gain from the dodge ability are the Adept traits. I speak about them in this manner below. I thought about making the Major Grandmaster Traits the Major Master Traits instead, but that order does not really matter. I did not change the names of any of the traits. I speak on changes the dodge itself (Minor Adept Trait Tenacious Ruin) before the Major Grandmaster Traits, which affect the dodge ability too. I also suggest two different styles of the dodge ability traits.

Minor Traits (Excluding the first: Tenacious Ruin)

1. Master - Balance in Discord: Gain health and boons when swapping legends or by using (the new) Energy Meld (F2).
2. Grandmaster - Empire Divided: No change.

Major Adept Traits (Swapped placement with current Vindicator Master traits. These are the endurance-gain-from-dodge traits.)

1. 1XX - Reaver's Curse: No change.
2. 2XX - Angsiyan's Trust: No change.
3. 3XX - Song of Arboreum: No change.

Major Master Traits (Swapped placement with current Vindicator Adept traits)

1. X1X - Leviathan Strength: Alliance Tactics (F3) deals more damage, applies Torment on hit, and grants Might and Quickness (maybe) to nearby allies.
2. X2X - Amnesty of Shing Jea: Alliance Tactics (F3) heals for more, applies Regeneration and grants a small barrier to nearby allies.
3. X3X - Redemptor's Salvation: You no longer have access to Alliance Lock (F4) in Legendary Alliance Stance, and so your utility skills in this stance now flip. However, their cooldowns are reduced by 20% and energy cost by 10%. Energy Meld (F2) now grants Vigor and 10 endurance to you and nearby allies. For clarity, you will only have access to the F2 and F3 abilities.

 

Minor Adept: Tenacious Ruin. This is the signature dodge ability for the revenant. This dodge now provides immunity to all damage while in the dodge mechanic (but does not remove conditions). The following two styles of Major Grandmaster Traits change the dodge ability quite a bit, in how it works and in some cases, how it looks. You still have only 1 dodge charge.

Major Grandmaster Traits (Style 1)

The dodge, regardless of the choice of trait, has the same animation and endurance cost, the areas affected as stipulated by the original traits also remains unchanged, but you gain Superspeed for the duration of the dodge.

1. XX1 - Forerunner of Death: The duration of the dodge is reduced by 33%. While in the dodge, gain personal Alacrity at an increased effectiveness (say 50%). You gain a 15% damage increase as the dodge ends, and increase the damage of nearby allies by 1%. The dodge deals more damage than the original version of this trait as well. Possibility: activating this dodge while immobilized removes the immobilized condition at the cost of -50% endurance recovery for 3 seconds. 
2. XX2 - Vassals of the Empire: The duration of the dodge is reduced by 33%. No change to boons granted, damage done and conditions given, but you also supply Quickness and Swiftness to nearby allies.
3. XX3 - Saint of zu Heltzer: No change, except that Healing Power is increased instead of outgoing healing. This would then grant more barrier on the proceeding dodges. This will also affect up to 10 allies.

Major Grandmaster Traits (Style 2)

The dodge, regardless of the choice of trait, has the same endurance cost, and the areas affected as stipulated by the original traits also remains unchanged.

1. XX1 - Forerunner of Death: Identical to the trait described in Style 1 (including animation and Superspeed).
2. XX2 - Vassals of the Empire: New animation: You turn into your mist form, leap into the air (not very high, more like how high a warrior leaps with their Stomp ability) and slam the grand, which also opens that 'mist rift' beneath you (this will not lock you in place). The length of this dodge is the same as in Style 1. No change to boons granted, damage done and conditions given, but you also supply Quickness and Swiftness to nearby allies (same damage and boons as Style 1).
3. XX3 - Saint of zu Heltzer: New animation: You turn into your mist form and thrust your weapon up into the sky, which also opens that 'mist rift' beneath you (this will not lock you in place). The length of this dodge is the same as in Style 1. Same effects as in Style 1.

 

Weapon Skills

No changes here. The greatsword skills are fun.

 

Ending

I tried to be as clear as possible. While I enjoyed the Vindicator, it did not feel fluid enough for me, and the dodge felt like it was missing something. While giving the ability of Revenant's to now also be a source of Quickness and Barrier might seem like it could be unfair on other professions, the timeline of Guild Wars 2 is long and I will not be surprised if one day every profession has the ability to do anything in the game, be it support, damage or a mix in any way, shape and form. Allowing more professions to supply some unique benefits doesn't make it unfair on other professions, it rather opens up the playing field for more profession combinations. That way, if we give power to every profession, we don't have to stick to the meta "QFB" or "HScourge", we can instead look for anyone to supply anything, and actually just enjoy the game. 

Also, I read a post somewhere on Reddit where it was suggested that as we get each elite specialization, it should be made possible for those weapons brought with those elite specs to be able to be used by any other spec (elite or core) of that profession. I think that is a great idea, and will not break the game, but enhance it.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

After more thought on this, I think the base endurance cost for all 3 of the dodges needs to be the same.  They should all also have the shorter duration dodge.  The differences here should be in their effects, radius size, and animation. 

Why this change?  1)  The damage dodges are unnecessarily long and costly which directly hurts PvE performance (and wvw/pvp as well to some extent) and 2)  No one will ever take the damage dodges in PvP/WvW as long as it has a 150 endurance cost AND a long, EASY TO DODGE cast time.  Damage/effects can be adjusted to compensate for the lower endurance cost/higher spammability if needed

 

Functionally the damage dodges are fairly useless in nearly all game modes at the moment and do not adequately provide what they're intended to provide.  Clearly having damage tied to a fast spammable dodge (Daredevil Bound) isn't a problem if balanced adequately, so I don't see why we can't have something similar here.  The dodges are different enough from Daredevil dodges that it wouldn't feel redundant to make them more uniform across the board

Edited October 25, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

After more thought on this, I think the base endurance cost for all 3 of the dodges needs to be the same.  They should all also have the shorter duration dodge.  The differences here should be in their effects, radius size, and animation. 

Why this change?  1)  The damage dodges are unnecessarily long and costly which directly hurts PvE performance (and wvw/pvp as well to some extent) and 2)  No one will ever take the damage dodges in PvP/WvW as long as it has a 150 endurance cost AND a long, EASY TO DODGE cast time.  Damage/effects can be adjusted to compensate for the lower endurance cost/higher spammability if needed

 

Functionally the damage dodges are fairly useless in nearly all game modes at the moment and do not adequately provide what they're intended to provide.  Clearly having damage tied to a fast spammable dodge (Daredevil Bound) isn't a problem if balanced adequately, so I don't see why we can't have something similar here.  The dodges are different enough from Daredevil dodges that it wouldn't feel redundant to make them more uniform across the board

Gonna have to hard disagree with this.

 

im pretty certain that the endurance costs are set that way to add the amount of dodge time and more importantly to add a hard cool down. 

 

both are probably designed to align to the benefit of the dodge type.  The benefits are questionable, like the heal/barrier is too much for the spammability it has, while the damage numbers aren’t high enough.

 

That being said, I was able to get some decent numbers on the damage dodge in WvW.  I hit a group with 7k ish damage per target.  That’s 35,000 damage!  That’s pretty insane.  However, as you stated, it’s hard to land that attack.  I hit it on unsuspecting targets.  Most of the time, I was only able to hit 2 or 3 and if they had tanky stats, it was only doing 3-4K damage.

 

landing the damage dodge is a bit problematic.  Maybe they should increase the travel speed of the dodge.  Maybe they should just do a flat dps increase.  Regardless, I don’t think your solution is the right answer.  Not only do the dodges lose their flavor, they also become Daredevil dodges.  If you want that, then go play one.  On top of that, it loses the balancing functions I pointed out, the added cool down. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

4 hours ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Gonna have to hard disagree with this.

 

im pretty certain that the endurance costs are set that way to add the amount of dodge time and more importantly to add a hard cool down. 

 

both are probably designed to align to the benefit of the dodge type.  The benefits are questionable, like the heal/barrier is too much for the spammability it has, while the damage numbers aren’t high enough.

 

That being said, I was able to get some decent numbers on the damage dodge in WvW.  I hit a group with 7k ish damage per target.  That’s 35,000 damage!  That’s pretty insane.  However, as you stated, it’s hard to land that attack.  I hit it on unsuspecting targets.  Most of the time, I was only able to hit 2 or 3 and if they had tanky stats, it was only doing 3-4K damage.

 

landing the damage dodge is a bit problematic.  Maybe they should increase the travel speed of the dodge.  Maybe they should just do a flat dps increase.  Regardless, I don’t think your solution is the right answer.  Not only do the dodges lose their flavor, they also become Daredevil dodges.  If you want that, then go play one.  On top of that, it loses the balancing functions I pointed out, the added cool down. 

I think your assessment misses a few things 

1) The “added cool down” you mention is currently only relevant/important because the supposed benefit of the dodge is theoretically worth the full 150 endurance and 3s evade/cast time.  The truth is (as you sort of mention too) that the 150 (and even the 100 really)  dodge isn’t worth the cost currently and one of the only ways to make it worth it is to make it even stronger than it is currently or near impossible to miss with. Unfortunately, as long as it has a 3s cast time there’s almost no way to guarantee a hit with it in wvw/pvp except in Zerg scenarios where you’re guaranteed to hit literally anyone.  In PvE the 3s cast time will always be extremely limiting and awful unless they jack up the damage to like 90k+ with raid buffs. 

Also 7k (3-4K on tanky) in wvw on a 3s cast time costing 150 endurance is atrocious and certainly not “fairly insane.”  You can get higher numbers with much shorter casts on many other abilities (gunflame and arcdivider come to mind immediately).  

2)  As I mentioned in my first post, numbers can be adjusted to make each dodge do a fair amount of damage/boons/heals for the amount of time spent casting/lower endurance cost, but the problem is that the 3s cast time (and the 2s cast time) just lock the spec into being predictable and easy to play around. These cast times are not fixable with mere damage/utility increases unless they push it to absurd levels. 

3). While yes daredevil dodge is similar and clearly some of the inspiration for Vindicator, ultimately none of daredevil’s dodges are group support oriented so two of vindicator’s dodges are already unique regardless of cast time/cost.  Functionally having free movement during dodge is also very different than daredevil. Having the ability to have 3 dodges at all times vs only 1 also makes the two specs play differently as well.  Even though Death Drop’s “flavor” is partially the 3s evade/cast reducing it down to 1s wouldn’t just make it “the same as Daredevil.” The skills function differently even at the lower cast time.  “Just go play daredevil” is an inane response when, even if adjusted the way I would want, the two specs still have very different and clear identities and can exist side by side even with some similarities.  Look at the new Spectre for example; it has a “necro shroud” too, but does it differently despite borrowing many of the same mechanics.  A 1s cast 50 endurance dodge for all 3 dodges on vindicator would be the same; borrowed somewhat but still quite different than daredevil.  

I guess we can leave the 3s cast/150 endurance cost for flavor if we want the skill to be completely functionless and have no one ever take Death Drop outside of wvw zergs.  Personally I’d rather not see that happen, but as long as the skill is so insanely costly in both endurance and time for small benefit its going to see little use.  I don’t think the dodges “lose flavor” with my proposed changes nor are the “balancing functions” you mention the only way they can balance the skills appropriately.  I’d rather see the skills functional and still flavorful than useless and flavorful

Edited October 25, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

22 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I think your assessment misses a few things 

1) The “added cool down” you mention is currently only relevant/important because the supposed benefit of the dodge is theoretically worth the full 150 endurance and 3s evade/cast time.  The truth is (as you sort of mention too) that the 150 (and even the 100 really)  dodge isn’t worth the cost currently and one of the only ways to make it worth it is to make it even stronger than it is currently or near impossible to miss with. Unfortunately, as long as it has a 3s cast time there’s almost no way to guarantee a hit with it in wvw/pvp except in Zerg scenarios where you’re guaranteed to hit literally anyone.  In PvE the 3s cast time will always be extremely limiting and awful unless they jack up the damage to like 90k+ with raid buffs. 

Also 7k (3-4K on tanky) in wvw on a 3s cast time costing 150 endurance is atrocious and certainly not “fairly insane.”  You can get higher numbers with much shorter casts on many other abilities (gunflame and arcdivider come to mind immediately).  

2)  As I mentioned in my first post, numbers can be adjusted to make each dodge do a fair amount of damage/boons/heals for the amount of time spent casting/lower endurance cost, but the problem is that the 3s cast time (and the 2s cast time) just lock the spec into being predictable and easy to play around. These cast times are not fixable with mere damage/utility increases unless they push it to absurd levels. 

3). While yes daredevil dodge is similar and clearly some of the inspiration for Vindicator, ultimately none of daredevil’s dodges are group support oriented so two of vindicator’s dodges are already unique regardless of cast time/cost.  Functionally having free movement during dodge is also very different than daredevil. Having the ability to have 3 dodges at all times vs only 1 also makes the two specs play differently as well.  Even though Death Drop’s “flavor” is partially the 3s evade/cast reducing it down to 1s wouldn’t just make it “the same as Daredevil.” The skills function differently even at the lower cast time.  “Just go play daredevil” is an inane response when, even if adjusted the way I would want, the two specs still have very different and clear identities and can exist side by side even with some similarities.  Look at the new Spectre for example; it has a “necro shroud” too, but does it differently despite borrowing many of the same mechanics.  A 1s cast 50 endurance dodge for all 3 dodges on vindicator would be the same; borrowed somewhat but still quite different than daredevil.  

I guess we can leave the 3s cast/150 endurance cost for flavor if we want the skill to be completely functionless and have no one ever take Death Drop outside of wvw zergs.  Personally I’d rather not see that happen, but as long as the skill is so insanely costly in both endurance and time for small benefit its going to see little use.  I don’t think the dodges “lose flavor” with my proposed changes nor are the “balancing functions” you mention the only way they can balance the skills appropriately.  I’d rather see the skills functional and still flavorful than useless and flavorful

Still need some sort of balancing factor. The damage dodge is too beneficial to be a 1 sec dodge. The heal dodge is already op and spammable  and needs tuned down. 
 

also, you can’t really compare with Vin with different classs. With that mentality, Anet just needs to add Dragon trigger to everyone and just let us do that damage. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

47 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Still need some sort of balancing factor. The damage dodge is too beneficial to be a 1 sec dodge. The heal dodge is already op and spammable  and needs tuned down.

And my suggestion does.  I specifically said "Damage/effects can be adjusted to compensate for the lower endurance cost/higher spammability if needed" in my original post.  I'm not necessarily advocating for a 1 to 1 translation of the current skill; obviously that would be absurd. However, 3s cast time will ALWAYS limit the damage dodge's usefulness unless they make it powerful enough to be an insta-down and no one wants that.  

47 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

also, you can’t really compare with Vin with different classs. With that mentality, Anet just needs to add Dragon trigger to everyone and just let us do that damage. 

You absolutely can and should compare Vindicator with other classes.  Not comparing classes is how entire specs, traitlines, etc. get left behind for literal years.  No one wants or needs that for Vindicator and, unless serious changes are made before the release of EoD Vindicator will very much be in that boat; left behind just like the rest of Power Rev (in PvE) for years.  And no one credible thinks Dragon Trigger is balanced in PvE at the moment (and p.s. it currently sucks kitten in WvW/PvP, largely because it deals very little damage for a 5s cast time/absurd cost...hmmm sounds similar to Vindicator's Death Drop 3s cast time/absurd cost issues...)

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Catchyfx.5768]

I cannot unsee how untamed which get "bruisy" style combat style like vindy(cmc mentioned this in stream) actualy gets tools to fullfil that role(traits, utilities). 

[DonArkanio.6419]

Make dodge function like a longer version of Daredevil's Vault staff 5.

This way V button lets you choose the area to dodge, once you click it, you jump up to the air, the circle shows up and you land on the spot. And add the ability to jump over terrain.

 

but honestly, I don't have a clue why Vindicator even has this weird dodge mechanic to begin with. It feels pretty random

[HeyHeyHey.9453]

2 hours ago, DonArkanio.6419 said:

Make dodge function like a longer version of Daredevil's Vault staff 5.

This way V button lets you choose the area to dodge, once you click it, you jump up to the air, the circle shows up and you land on the spot. And add the ability to jump over terrain.

 

but honestly, I don't have a clue why Vindicator even has this weird dodge mechanic to begin with. It feels pretty random

It’s incredibly random. The entire spec dodge mechanic is fairly uninspired and confusing in terms of the mechanics and their lore tie ins 

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

16 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

And my suggestion does.  I specifically said "Damage/effects can be adjusted to compensate for the lower endurance cost/higher spammability if needed" in my original post.  I'm not necessarily advocating for a 1 to 1 translation of the current skill; obviously that would be absurd. However, 3s cast time will ALWAYS limit the damage dodge's usefulness unless they make it powerful enough to be an insta-down and no one wants that.  

You absolutely can and should compare Vindicator with other classes.  Not comparing classes is how entire specs, traitlines, etc. get left behind for literal years.  No one wants or needs that for Vindicator and, unless serious changes are made before the release of EoD Vindicator will very much be in that boat; left behind just like the rest of Power Rev (in PvE) for years.  And no one credible thinks Dragon Trigger is balanced in PvE at the moment (and p.s. it currently sucks kitten in WvW/PvP, largely because it deals very little damage for a 5s cast time/absurd cost...hmmm sounds similar to Vindicator's Death Drop 3s cast time/absurd cost issues...)

 

I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on this.  I’d rather they leave the dodge mechanic as we saw it and adjust the numbers. In damage dodge’s case, adjust the numbers much higher.

[Loules.8601]

15 hours ago, Catchyfx.5768 said:

I cannot unsee how untamed which get "bruisy" style combat style like vindy(cmc mentioned this in stream) actualy gets tools to fullfil that role(traits, utilities). 

“I cannot unsee” that engi golem have much more new animations than Vindicator - who don’t have even one on the “new” GS.