Vindicator Feedback Thread

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

6 hours ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on this.  I’d rather they leave the dodge mechanic as we saw it and adjust the numbers. In damage dodge’s case, adjust the numbers much higher.

Agree to disagree then, but only bumping the damage up when there are fundamental mechanical issues present is going to be a balancing nightmare 

Edited October 27, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[LuRkEr.9462]

Bumping damage would be nice, but also the dodge needs fixed to be no longer than the evade time. It makes you too vulnerable in any competitive mode to people spamming area attacks and your char being useless in the air.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

15 hours ago, LuRkEr.9462 said:

Bumping damage would be nice, but also the dodge needs fixed to be no longer than the evade time. It makes you too vulnerable in any competitive mode to people spamming area attacks and your char being useless in the air.

It is quite possible that was just a bug. Hopefully that will get fixed

 

16 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Agree to disagree then, but only bumping the damage up when there are fundamental mechanical issues present is going to be a balancing nightmare 

Again, that’s opinion. I think the dodge mechanic is sound. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

 

Again, that’s opinion. I think the dodge mechanic is sound. 

Ofc lmao. Literally both of our opinions are opinions and I never claimed otherwise 😂

[Antinotice.7539]

Deleted.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Antinotice.7539

[Loopgru.1026]

My short prescription for Vindicator:

 

• - Remove Leg. Alliance flip-over mechanic
• - F2 now flips over Leg Alliance skills manually if it's active
• - F2 now triggers switch-to-legend mechanics and traits (e.g. Spirit Boon, Song of the Mists, energy recovery) regardless of stance
• - Leviathan Strength: Apply cooldown reset to whatever stance is active (not just alliance)
• - Standardize all dodges to 50 energy and .75s evade, like a standard dodge, and adjust their on-landing effects accordingly
• - Replace 2 of the 3 master tier traits- one option to improve dodge access is plenty, a greatsword trait and some way to get access to offensive boons would be great here
• - Rework Urn, thing is hot garbage as-is

[LivingLegend.6528]

I guess maybe just remove the flipping and just let us pick and choose the utilities we want so we can mix and match instead of a fix set. As of now it just feels like playing the AI and not the profession itself. Dodge might need some tweak and that urn skill might also need a look at it.

 

Maybe for people who are good it does not bother them but i feel that aside from renegade the rev does not have a good range weapon. They could rework the hammer  and try to complement this new e spec. 

 

 

[Howluffu.7259]

I have an idea. Give GREATSWORD to core rev then you can do whatever you want with this garbo e-spec "vindicator".

[Thon.3780]

After I read many topic and comments . It seem 

vindicator should rename to be saint bunny.  Coz all trait and match the mass healing build. 
so Archemorus is just fulfillment skill while Victor is core.

 

In order to balance .
1I still recommend permanent split utility skill 

2. each bar has its own cd

3 use F5 ( or F2 ) to swap freely without services charge.

4. do whatever you want with F2 F3 F4

 

then you can solve problem . Who want play damage dealer, here you go

who want to play support, heal . Then do it

[Zenith.7301]

On 10/27/2021 at 4:07 PM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Agree to disagree then, but only bumping the damage up when there are fundamental mechanical issues present is going to be a balancing nightmare 

 

 

Particularly because this just creates another Bladesworn scenario, where you have to tune up a single hit so high, it completely breaks the class in breakbar encounters and fractals.

 

It's really bad design.

 

I don't think people understand how oppressive Bladwesworn will be to class variety in fractals and power damage bosses. They literally gutted soulbeasts with the claim their burst was too good in fractals, and then go and give warriors a spec that has 5x better burst than peak soulbeast burst pre-nerf.

 

Creating classes with these stark damage binaries is toxic for the game's balance.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[BadSanta.6527]

Absulotly a vendihater!! 

Edited October 31, 2021 by BadSanta.6527

[Ukon Cairns.9160]

Vindicator was fun but it feels like its missing something. greatsword was neat but dont know if it quite hits hard enough to be the power dps rev has been looking for. heal vindicator was fun to play but feels like the utility it brings doesnt match up to what Renegade or even Herald would bring. the kurzik spear toss elite looks like its supposed to be impressive, but lacked that oomph. its almost like an action figure, where it looks neat to pick up and move around but like, what does it do?

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

On 10/31/2021 at 1:36 AM, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

Particularly because this just creates another Bladesworn scenario, where you have to tune up a single hit so high, it completely breaks the class in breakbar encounters and fractals.

 

It's really bad design.

 

I don't think people understand how oppressive Bladwesworn will be to class variety in fractals and power damage bosses. They literally gutted soulbeasts with the claim their burst was too good in fractals, and then go and give warriors a spec that has 5x better burst than peak soulbeast burst pre-nerf.

 

Creating classes with these stark damage binaries is toxic for the game's balance.

I’m not talking about astronomical numbers here for a bump up.  Also, you know Bkadesworn is just begging for a nerf right out of the box. I laughed when I saw the presentation of it and said “yeah, that’ll stay in the game long” with sarcasm. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[Zikory.6871]

After now seeing all the elites and thinking on Vindicator. Some random ideas, WvW group content 20-30s with what is generally considered meta now. I generally stay away from actually making suggestion on how classes play as I only play 1 game mode and won't really be able consider PvE or sPvP. But as a long time Herald player in WvW, I suspect this elite without some major changes will be underwhelming and unused without major meta changes in WvW. 

Dodge - Biggest issue for group content imo ( I also found it interesting that we are getting a training area in EoD but Vindicator doesn't have dodges like the rest of the classes for the dodge training. Funnily same with the break bar but no CC.) 

Idea 1 - Return standard dodges and tie the dodge mechanic to a F3 button. Have them share endurance and F3 would scale based on endurance used. 50-100-150 traits could be 1-2-3 dodges. (Most likely capped at 2 for WvW)

Idea 2 - With the assumption that they aren't changing the dodge mechanic. Change Nomad's Advance and Battle Dance to evade skills like Weavers Twist of Fate. No charges since you'll get one every 10s and can trait for instant CD. This would give a dodge option that should minimize the issues with not having dodges. 
  - Would have to reconsider the stun breaks if Twist of Fate templet was used I'd think though. 

Utilities
Nomad's Advance and Battle Dance should be replaced. We already have these skills on Shiro and since Revenant doesn't get a 4th utility so it should be something we don't have yet. The above Twist of Fate type skill would be my opinion.

Scavenger Burst - Sadly single hitting skills need to hit hard to be mostly worth in WvW. Give it 2 more pulses of damage, keep the skill mechanics on just the initial impact. 
Tree Song - No change assuming Scavenger Burst is more impactful. Otherwise it should be a CC skill. 

Elite
Urn of Saint Viktor - Remove the Health threshold and self hurt mechanic. Make it a standard upkeep skill with pulsing Chill.
Spear of Archemorus
Idea 1 - Add piercing and/or unblockable with 5 targets. 
Idea 2 - Add a tether with pulsing Chill instead of Torment. (A pull that activates at 900-1200 range would be neat af)

Crowd Control
My first thought is to rework the utilities to add some hard CC but since I feel that is less likely. Promote more Chill use through out the elite. In the traits put a power damage modifier to chilled targets. Your 3rd auto chain Chills, GS 3 and you can trait for Chill on dodge. 

Greatsword 
Mist Unleashed GS 2 - Since we already have a big spike damage number 2 skill on Hammer, I'd like to see a multi hit skill here. 
Phantom's Onslaught GS 3 - Make it a Leap finisher. 

Imperial Guard -> True Strike GS 4 - I would love to see a Stun if a block thresh hold is met but since CC skills in WvW don't do damage, that would also mean removing the Strike damage. Probably not a great trade.

Been playing more or less the same Build/Gear Herald since HoT. I'm ready for a new power Damage WvW Revenant. Vindicator is soo close but to confused and underwhelming. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Zikory.6871

[Zenith.7301]

On 11/1/2021 at 9:07 AM, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

I’m not talking about astronomical numbers here for a bump up.  Also, you know Bkadesworn is just begging for a nerf right out of the box. I laughed when I saw the presentation of it and said “yeah, that’ll stay in the game long” with sarcasm. 

 

Staff ele stayed crushingly dominant in the game for more than 5 years. You are way too optimistic about Anet's actual interest in balancing organized PvE performance. 95% of the time specs and tuning changes are made for PvP and WvW. Chrono got gutted since it not only shone in PvE but in PvP, and staff ele was strangling the DPS meta in PvE and WvW until the meteor shower changes.

 

If it weren't for the breakbar changes, Dragonhunters would still be ruling all fractals. Now it's just Firebrands, same class drowning out the others.

 

Do you think they come up with something like Untamed and think "yeah, a CC spam spec with nothing else and abysmal damage" with PvE in mind? Untamed is just a repeat of Scrapper and it took them until the end of PoF, long after Scrapper's release in HoT, to bring the spec into relevance in PvE.

 

They don't care. They don't have PTR's to modify changes according to player feedback, they just push out what they want and leave it to rot for years and move on to the next new project because their design has no intentions for continuity.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Buran.3796]

  I think that Vindicator has chances of rivaling Herald as WvW roamer and in PvP, and also being competitive vs Renegade in that space, albeit it will vary based on the tunning of the numbers, and not in the new mechanics. See what we lost:

Vs core Rev: core Rev has a much stronger F2 mechanic, and three traitlines offers both specialization and variety; this is specially apparent due Vindicator traitline is monochcome: the Alliance Legend is weaker than any core legend so must be ditched and all the traits devoted to it are lost causes. We have essentially either 3,3,3 or 3,3,2 (arguably).

 

Vs Herald: again the legend, F2 and traitline are worse, but at least the shield doesn't provide terrible advantage to the Herald. Herald  is stronger in boons, has fantastic cc and defensive tools and better mobility options.

 

Vs Renegade: Renegade has better boons and traitline (with strong synergies with the weapon, the new F mechanics and both power and condi builds), a more ofensive weapon with range and cc. The legend has limited uses in PvP/roaming (still better than the Alliance, thho).

 

   Now, what the Vindicator has that those 3 specs lack? Not much, but have some advantages than can provide the fundation for a solid bruiser build:

 

1) The new "evade" system has potential to be stronger than the normal evades. The 150 endurance trait is gabage and the 100 endurance trait still subpar, but 50 one is very spammable with a proper build and delivers some damage, healing and barriers. But the most important part (which is counterproductive in PvE but not there) is that builds up time in which passive regeneration (as Vengeful Hammers) keeps working for us.

2) The greatsword provides mobility, a block and two strong burst; is a slow weapon (which can be properly enhanced as I'll explain later) which lacks the cc to set up those burst (a problem shared with Abott & Costello) BUT using core legends that problem can be solved.

    So: the Vindicator has a evade mechanic that once un-bugged and refined can potentially provide better sustain than the normal evades, and the greatsword skills #2 & #5 can deal good burst of damage.

   So far this is what I would use as Vindivator:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAEZlxQHsOqhxROMP6hRSfMCKgl+1X8H-zVRYBR1GOsTJMJajKqMFC9KC84JIg/WEeGA-w

   Shiro + Jalis is a no brainer: Shiro provides mobility, damage and cc; Jalis provides tankines, sustain and control (and more cc), both work very well for Renegade builds in both roaming and PvP and this combo has much stronger condition cleanse than the prevalent Herald builds.

   Since the greatsword has block the staff can be replaced but albeit gs can work with swords or axe + mace I still think that the staff would be the best choice: between the mobility from Shiro, the damage mitigation, cleanses and regeneration from Jalis, the block from both of our weapons and the evasive jumps our ability to negate damage from our foes is plenty. The staff also provides weakness (a good counter vs Vindicators) and more cc to prepare our burst.

   We have Retribution, which means that our endurance recovery now outpaces Herald's (by A LOT) and healing under every upkeep point spent. The third traitline is Desvastation since provides Brutality: a confiable source of quickness which also removes stability on hit: that synergizes wonderfully with Surge of the Mist, Jade Winds, Forced Engagement which also synergizes with sigil of Celerity on our greatsword: we interrupt a foe, we gain quicknes, we swap to gs gaining even more quickness and removing stability, landing Mist Unleashed and Eternity's Requiem in a single second...  Vision sigil on GS to maximize the burst (optional: hydromancy or energy) and energy and cleansing in the staff. Mix of berserker and diviner stats to maximize damage + boon duration with either Leadership runes or Fireworks (boon duration + cleansing or boon duration + mobility and migth).

   Swords can replace staff for a more ofensive playstile. Another choice would be running a hybrid damage Vindicator based in the concept of the Celestial Herald:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAElflxQHsOqhxROMP6hRSfMCKgjqSf8H-z1IY1o+/MiUVlpUVxngw9b5RzK-w

   Here the main source of damage is the mix of the mace skills with Diabolic Inferno and sigil of doom in the legend/weapon swap. Is a weider choice since on paper the Vindicator legendary Alliance and traits are really poor in terms of adding conditions (ouside some chills, a bit of fire and torment) but with 22K base HP, almost 3K armor over 1K condition damage and decent strike damage stats, 600+ healing and good boon and condition duration the celestial Vindicator can put some nasty (four our foes) damage numbers on the table while being a heck of a tank.

 

[Howluffu.7259]

Yeah but I want my rev to be a dope power dps in PvE raid and fractal content I couldn't care less about WvW and PvP especially with herald been pretty good in both of them.

[Raarsi.6798]

Definitely didn't like the jump.  Every time I did a dodge, I had enough time to figure out at least one clue (usually two on average) on a crossword puzzle and put my book and pencil down before my character hit the ground.  It gave me the impression that devs forgot to factor in the dangers of animation lock, but I also made sure to bear in mind that it is still in beta.  My suggestion would be to have two dodges with the same duration on the i-frame window even if that means reducing the damage so it still feels like you can evade while keeping that fantasy of the Dragoon of the Final Fantasy franchise (someone should've told the devs why they're called "derpgoons" in FFXIV since the animation lock from those sorts of jumps is usually what used to kill them in fights).

 

I also didn't like the whole thing of bouncing between legend skills while under the twin legend.  I always tell people that playing revenant is like playing a volleyball match, where you have the setup on one side then you serve it to the other side--I know it's not the best analogy, but it gives people (especially friends who don't play GW2) a good enough idea.  Vindicator feels like playing a volleyball match while playing table tennis: between the regular stuff of revenant, staring at the endurance bar for the offensive usage of dodge, AND thinking about which legend skills flip to what other skill and wondering why I have to use some other cooldown just to get to the skill I want to use....it's just too mind-wracking, at least compared to the other revenant specs.  Maybe if we could set which of those skills we want to have rather than flipping back and forth would be easier while maintaining that twin legend theme.  It'd probably be a hassle to code, but it's not like revenant mains aren't used to the game messing with hotkey arrangement anyway...

[phokus.8934]

All especs getting changes come next beta, November 30th.

[Rin.1046]

The two main things I would like changed on the Vindicator are as follows:

 

Urn of Saint Victor:

Either remove the self damage or remove the inability to self heal. The self damage, with no way to self heal, will stop a lot of players using this skill. The risk is not worth the low payoff. If the unpreventable self damage is not going to be removed, then the healing to allies needs to be increased by a seriously significant amount to make it worth using. Compared to the Spear of Archemorus, which does decent damage at 2000! range and has no self punishment, the urn is a LOT weaker and will be insta-swapped 99 times out of 100.

 

Utility Skills:

Remove the forced skill swap on the utilities. It reduces the control you have over them. Revenant already has less control over their utility skills compared to the other professions, and this mechanic only serves to reduce control even further, or at the very least makes that control unnecessarily more difficult.

I think a better way to handle this would be to remove the swap on skill use, and put the swap functionality only in the F2 ability. That way we have full control over when we switch roles.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Rin.1046

[Loboling.5293]

I've got to say this, because I think it'll get ignored. Vindicator dodge needs to be able to move up/down terrain. Your character jumps into the sky, let us jump up a platform or at least jump down one like the default dodge. 

[Thon.3780]

Agree with 

On 11/7/2021 at 1:00 PM, Loboling.5293 said:

I've got to say this, because I think it'll get ignored. Vindicator dodge needs to be able to move up/down terrain. Your character jumps into the sky, let us jump up a platform or at least jump down one like the default dodge. 

And idk how height it can jump? 
I hope it can jump cross the gap.  Or go up to high level terrain. But how height it can do?

otherwise . It just for show. 
 

[Catchyfx.5768]

7 hours ago, Thon.3780 said:

Agree with 

And idk how height it can jump? 
I hope it can jump cross the gap.  Or go up to high level terrain. But how height it can do?

otherwise . It just for show. 
 

If i remember well you cannot jump over stuf, it is only animation.

You jump in the sky but cannot jump over little fence 😂

If you mean jump/dodge

[Thon.3780]

One more thing after checking skill.

vindicatir has no heavy strike skill…

let say mist unleashed try to half damage and half cd. But it nerf too much damage and cd in pvp . If compare to other profession.

 

it has same damage range as maul ( ranger skill ) but… ranger has pet to support damage continuously without cost to pay while vindicator stay alone.

 

if possible I prefer big hit skill like hundreds blade from warriors.

 

Most Area damage is good for pve but it is soft skill for pvp wvw

[Buran.3796]

8 hours ago, Thon.3780 said:

 

vindicatir has no heavy strike skill…

let say mist unleashed try to half damage and half cd. But it nerf too much damage and cd in pvp . If compare to other profession.

 

it has same damage range as maul ( ranger skill ) but… ranger has pet to support damage continuously without cost to pay while vindicator stay alone.

   Mist Unleashed hits (a bit) hader than our hammer or sword skills in a shorter cooldown, and has a faster cast rate than anything from hammer while keeping the same number of targets and AoE (but lacking range, which makes sense as was designed as a strike mele weapon).  As with 100 blades, the main handicap is that you need to set the attack with a cc (and better if you have quickness) because is relatively easy to evade or flank.

   The main gripe is that since The Alliance is garbage, you will just end playing a core Rev with GS and a weird jump (and you will end jumping a lot more than you evade in other Rev builds, due the synergies favours using the cheapest endurance jump and Retribution + Song of Arboreum grants you perma-vigor). I like the gameplay style but I'm not sure about the feasibility in some game modes...